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Old 02-13-2008, 08:26 AM   #1
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So with all the +spell damage that is showing up on mystic gear and the lack of +combat art damage, it is high time we start getting some data on how these are playing out with the standard mystic build (combat art build).  All tests were done on the training wall in kunzar jungle.  It was also level 76 for all tests.

Test 1: Str: 505, Int: 209, CA: 40, SD: 0

Chilling strike used 127 times.  Average damage 999.  Max hit 1092.  Min hit 906.

Feverish strike used 89 times.  Average initial hit 528.  Dot tick 358.  Front load 0.  Max initial 572.  Min initial 478.

Damage displayed CS: 701-848  FS: 370-444(280)

Test 2: Str: 509, Int: 214, CA: 0, SD: 35

Chilling strike used 129 times.  Average damage 953.  Max hit 1040.  Min hit 854.

Feverish strike used 90 times.  Average initial hit 474.  Dot tick 359.  Front load 35.  Max initial 521.  Min initial 427.

Damage displayed CS: 663-810  FS: 331-405(282)

Test 3 (control): Str: 509, Int:213, CA: 0, SD: 0

Chilling strike used 130 times.  Average damage 957.  Max hit 1042.  Min hit 854.

Feverish strike used 93 times.  Average initial hit 473.  Dot tick 359.  Front load 0.  Max initial 521.  Min initial 428.

Damage displayed CS: 663-810  FS: 331-405(282)

As you can see from the numbers above you can see that +combat arts effects all of our combat arts while +spell damage only effects our dots with a front load.  Considering that all of our gear is pretty much being made with +spell damage and no +combat art this effects us severly.  I would highly recommend to the mystic community that you tackle this issue in any way you can. 

 If anyone would like to see the raw data in xls or the straight txt log file let me know.

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Old 02-13-2008, 02:00 PM   #2
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Thanks for doing some tests but its nothing we really didn't know before.  Bottom line is +spell does help melee shaman do more damage... BUT to a very small degree compared to what +ca would do for melee shaman.  Personally I have 7 attacks that + ca will add to (barb racial, shield daze, 1 dd, 2 dots, 1 aoe & phalanx) vs 2 dots which +spell would help.  So 7 vs 2 is no contest.This however is exactly why they put +spell on shaman items because it helps ALL shaman which is extremely lazy.  I'm sure there are a few spell casting shaman out there some where that  think +spell is awesome and for them it is and SoE can sit back when pressed on why there is +spell on so many shaman items and they can say it helps you doesn't it?  Then whats the problem?  If they want to be lazy they should just make +ca and +spell the same thing and keep everyone happy and less itemization for them to do and ultimately less work on that side of things.The whole epic thing makes me sick.  For a company that makes it living making a game that depends on people liking what they do in it and SoE making such a big deal of releasing epics in LU42 (which should have been out with the expansion in the 1st place) I find it amazing they are so far out of touch with the mystic community and the game in general.  Anyways, I've wasted enough time venting about the epics because  they are not going to change their "crowning glory" of LU42 and if they are it will next year some time after the next expansion.  Just like we had to suffer through the one hit wonder dog till they decided to fix it (kinda) a year later.  You get the idea. 
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Old 02-14-2008, 04:33 AM   #3
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Owlbear wrote:
Thanks for doing some tests but its nothing we really didn't know before.  Bottom line is +spell does help melee shaman do more damage... BUT to a very small degree compared to what +ca would do for melee shaman.  Personally I have 7 attacks that + ca will add to (barb racial, shield daze, 1 dd, 2 dots, 1 aoe & phalanx) vs 2 dots which +spell would help.  So 7 vs 2 is no contest.This however is exactly why they put +spell on shaman items because it helps ALL shaman which is extremely lazy.  I'm sure there are a few spell casting shaman out there some where that  think +spell is awesome and for them it is and SoE can sit back when pressed on why there is +spell on so many shaman items and they can say it helps you doesn't it?  Then whats the problem?  If they want to be lazy they should just make +ca and +spell the same thing and keep everyone happy and less itemization for them to do and ultimately less work on that side of things.The whole epic thing makes me sick.  For a company that makes it living making a game that depends on people liking what they do in it and SoE making such a big deal of releasing epics in LU42 (which should have been out with the expansion in the 1st place) I find it amazing they are so far out of touch with the mystic community and the game in general.  Anyways, I've wasted enough time venting about the epics because  they are not going to change their "crowning glory" of LU42 and if they are it will next year some time after the next expansion.  Just like we had to suffer through the one hit wonder dog till they decided to fix it (kinda) a year later.  You get the idea. 

If you want to have something changed I have found that you need to have some solid proof behind what you say.  And while a lot of people "have known this before"  the closest thing that I saw to "proof" was someone took 3 swings which is even more open to incorrect results.  I figured with all the complaints about spell damage etc.  The mystic community might want a leg to stand on.

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Old 02-14-2008, 04:41 AM   #4
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Bahh double post.

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Old 02-14-2008, 11:59 AM   #5
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Plus spell damage helps ALL mystics.    Not everyone is a melee CA build nor should they be forced into that role if they do not want to.

Sony did right in building for the default shaman, and not for one and only one AA build for the Mystic class.

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Old 02-14-2008, 02:43 PM   #6
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>>>Sony did right in building for the default shaman, and not for one and only one AA build for the Mystic class.<<Sony did right in building for the default shaman, and not for THE one and only one AA build for the Mystic class.Are there any mystics that don't take both the Combat line and the STA line?  Hands up.
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Old 02-14-2008, 05:17 PM   #7
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There sure are. they just don't come here and whine
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Old 02-14-2008, 06:07 PM   #8
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Mayl wrote:
There sure are. they just don't come here and whine

Actually, they do.  They are the ones who make statements like "mystics do not solo well" or "mystics level slowly because they can't kill anything and need a group".  In point of fact, mystics are healing and killing machines and can solo easily and quickly all the way to 80 while still topping  the group heal charts and turning in respectable priest dps when specced as a melee priest.

You can spec other ways, true, but frankly it is mostly a waste of points and does not make you a better mystic, just different and less effective.

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Old 02-15-2008, 02:07 AM   #9
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Mayl wrote:
There sure are. they just don't come here and whine

Actually so far you are the main person in this thread being negative.

Personally I don't know a single mystic that is VP flagged and does not have the combat arts.  If you are both VP flagged and you don't have the combat arts, you are the first.  But let me tell you something.  Most the mystic community isn't so irrational that we want to stifle any one play style.  We want our gear and abilities to be set up in such a way that every build is valid.

What this means is that many mystics would like to see +spell damage effect the combat arts and have a balance between str and int on our VP set.  Sure some would like all strength and all combat arts.  But most would agree to some str some int etc.  It is called designing to include everyone and not just one build as you liked to point out.

If you want me to break down what the difference is between +200int and +spell damage vs. +200str and +ca for a mystic is right now, you might be shocked and realized that the sets and epic right now reinforce the idea that while greatly outnumbered, they are gearing strictly for the caster build.

Now to throw things back in your court.  Should SOE only design for one build or should they design for all?  Personally I believe they should design for all.  This is why they really need to make it so that +spell damage effects all our CAs and not just two, or disable spell damage from being able to effect CAs and put an equal quantity of spell damage and combat art on all mystic specific peices.

 PS:  Believe it or not some of us melee mystics were against the idea of upping our dps.  We would have prefered better casting ability.  But many of us feel and for good reason that to maximize our potential we have to play the hand that we are dealt.  While the idea of playing what is "fun" is all fine and dandy, some of us our raiders.  That is what we find fun.  And we do what we must to kill the big ole' dwagon.

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Old 02-15-2008, 08:52 AM   #10
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Ordate wrote:
What this means is that many mystics would like to see +spell damage effect the combat arts and have a balance between str and int on our VP set.  Sure some would like all strength and all combat arts.  But most would agree to some str some int etc.  It is called designing to include everyone and not just one build as you liked to point out.

If you want me to break down what the difference is between +200int and +spell damage vs. +200str and +ca for a mystic is right now, you might be shocked and realized that the sets and epic right now reinforce the idea that while greatly outnumbered, they are gearing strictly for the caster build.

Now to throw things back in your court.  Should SOE only design for one build or should they design for all?  Personally I believe they should design for all.  This is why they really need to make it so that +spell damage effects all our CAs and not just two, or disable spell damage from being able to effect CAs and put an equal quantity of spell damage and combat art on all mystic specific peices.

 PS:  Believe it or not some of us melee mystics were against the idea of upping our dps.  We would have prefered better casting ability.  But many of us feel and for good reason that to maximize our potential we have to play the hand that we are dealt.  While the idea of playing what is "fun" is all fine and dandy, some of us our raiders.  That is what we find fun.  And we do what we must to kill the big ole' dwagon.

just have to QFE that, very well said.
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Old 02-15-2008, 11:28 AM   #11
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However raiders are still a minority of the gaming base.

Granted they are the most vocal though.  They tend to not have jobs and spend any downtime, complaining on message boards and trying to force the rest of the player population into their vision of the game.

when SoE does not cave in the minute they cry, the just up the post count and whine some more.   They approach the game like a 3 year old with a tooth ache.

Raiders are the bane of every MMO, no matter what class you play

(don't worry, I will wait for you classic replies about how I don't have the talent or l33t skills required to be a raider)

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Old 02-15-2008, 12:23 PM   #12
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I think you're missing the point Mayl.I believe Ordate is saying that even raiders take the melee build because there is nothing else better to take and they are the ones least likely to use melee skills since they would have raid only oriented builds (less dps more utility).  While soloers and groupers use groupers are also melee build because they will actually use the melee build to dps.Basically hes saying everyone use the melee build hehe.  Personally I would think about 80-90% of mystics use the melee build I would suspect.  I know there are a few mystics out there who believe healers are healers and god forbid they should do any dps and sit back and play the "whack-a-mole" heal the group mini game and don't ever lift a spear or cast a spell ever.
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Old 02-15-2008, 12:25 PM   #13
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Mayl wrote:

However raiders are still a minority of the gaming base.

Granted they are the most vocal though.  They tend to not have jobs and spend any downtime, complaining on message boards and trying to force the rest of the player population into their vision of the game.

when SoE does not cave in the minute they cry, the just up the post count and whine some more.   They approach the game like a 3 year old with a tooth ache.

Raiders are the bane of every MMO, no matter what class you play

(don't worry, I will wait for you classic replies about how I don't have the talent or l33t skills required to be a raider)

I'm not a l33t raider but i haven't a clue what you are on about - for general play anything other than melee spec looks just dumb.  If you raid you could try an out-and-out healing spec (cures, rez and augmenting woodee dooo... SMILEY  ).  I just think SOE have come up with lazy epic and fabled gear sets that have nothing to do with the classes that are actually played.
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Old 02-15-2008, 12:34 PM   #14
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Woot, finally an opportunity to up my post count!Pretty much what Ordate said there is pretty much on key. I'm not a 'hardcore' raider but we do well enough, the gear concept isn't limited to just raid gear though it's magnified by it. In group settings the "Mystic" gear is aimed at a caster build- in order to get around that we need to acquire "Scout" gear (or Battleshaman) if we want to improve our melee abilities. In raids however- all Mystic gear is aimed at a caster style, and basically all the "Scout" gear is limited to being Scout only so we can't even really attempt to build/improve the hybrid style of play our Achievements basically enforce.Yes, technically +spell damage helps "all" shaman, but then again so does STR.. What it comes down to is SOE needs to learn to support it's melee priests more, Wardens and Inquisitors have similar issues.  Now all that said, I don't know if in some grand balance scheme they just want to kneecap the melee DPS where it is and are dumping gobs of +spell damage on us to try to get people to rethink other specs but either way it is disheartening not seeing anything at all on the horizon that will help make me a better melee mystic and I'm not even uber.As to the rest of the flamebait you put down there Mayl, seriously read the forum rules, ya begging to get moderated.
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Old 02-15-2008, 01:04 PM   #15
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Really simple

+ spell damage helps ALL Mystics

+ca damage helps SOME Mystics

Why would you expect SoE to put something in that would not help all, vs some? 

I am not saying that the melee aa path is not the most common one, but it is a path, and not only way a mystic can spec their character.  That path is a choice and admitted to not being the only one.  All Mystics use spells though so SoE had to do it this way.

Why should you, if you spec melee aa get everything?  You want to have melee spec, free upgrades to the damage, and now + ca?   If you choose to go down the melee aa, you do so knowing you are giving up some of the benefit of the + spell damage.

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Old 02-15-2008, 06:00 PM   #16
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Put both +ca (at a reduced amount) and + spell on the weapon!  Why not!?!?!There is no great advantage to having both on since spells and ca are on the some timers.  Do it for the other melee priests as well.  The only thing is that it "breaks" is SoE's  template on how much bonuses can be put on a weapon.Since melee shaman only get a fraction of a bonus from the + spell bonus, use the +ca to top it off so the two are equal more or less.Jeez, that makes to much sense.  Forget it.  It will never happen now that is makes [email protected]##*&!!one!#@!
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Old 02-15-2008, 07:35 PM   #17
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In the initial comparison here, you're applying spell damage to what are (for the most part) combat arts, which sort of taints the point you're trying to make.  I understand why it was done this way, but it still leaves some of the story untold. I'd be curious to see what sort of DPS a true caster based Mystic could produce given the preponderance of +Spell gear available.  It'd be tough to figure, simply because I don't know too many Mystics with the T8 damage spell Masters at this point.I am however quite pleased with the training wall.  Never before has such a useful tool been available upon which to perform unbiased tests against.  Even if this isn't how it was intended, it is very valuable in that role.
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Old 02-16-2008, 01:58 AM   #18
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Sude, not sure what you are saying.  The point of this was to provide data as to how +spell damage and how +combat arts effects our combat arts.  The sole purpose of the data collection was to say here, this is what spell damage and combat arts contribute in concrete numbers to the combat art built mystic.  Im sure that the spells are effected by +spell damage just fine.

My whole reason of looking at this is because I feel that there are a couple of problems with our combat arts.  One is bad design on gear in respect to various builds of mystics.  The second is that I feel that chances are that either +spell damage is not suppose to effect our combat arts at all (bug).  Or that +CA is not suppose to effect them while +spell damage is (bug and probably the more I wish this was the case).  Either way I think most people can agree that the gear that drops for raiders is not conforming to how raiders play.  Similar situation to when they were adding stun mods to raid drop gear.  It did nothing to enhance the raiders primary play style as epics are stun immune for x time after they are stunned once.

As for dps changes, we would be shooting ourselves in the proverbial foot.  We buff str not int.  We don't have a class specific line that does anything with casting.  And we also would have less we could do, aka one of the main advantageous of combat arts.  You can spin one in while inbetween casting 2 heals etc.

I do have serveral of the damage spell masters.  While they werent sought out by any stretch of the imagination, they dropped for some guildies and I had them thrown at me.  If you want some data on them, let me know.

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Old 02-16-2008, 02:21 AM   #19
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Mayl wrote:

However raiders are still a minority of the gaming base.

Granted they are the most vocal though.  They tend to not have jobs and spend any downtime, complaining on message boards and trying to force the rest of the player population into their vision of the game.

when SoE does not cave in the minute they cry, the just up the post count and whine some more.   They approach the game like a 3 year old with a tooth ache.

Raiders are the bane of every MMO, no matter what class you play

(don't worry, I will wait for you classic replies about how I don't have the talent or l33t skills required to be a raider)

Let's be a bit more constructive in our posts please.  Some of the comments here are the stuff flame wars are made of and the restraint in many of the replies I have seen following this post is a welcome sight. SMILEYDifferent players have different desires.  Insulting someone for having a different playstyle is not only not permitted per the forum rules, but is just in poor taste.
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Old 02-18-2008, 08:04 PM   #20
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One test I didnt think of at the time and it looks like I really need to do is what happens when you have both +CA and +SD gear on.  I was just tooling around outside of KC and noticed that despite having well over a 100 spell damage gear on, I wasn't getting any front loaded damage.  I took off the one +CA item I have, and walla it reappeared.  I'll have to see if both disappear or if its just the +SD.
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Old 02-20-2008, 04:22 PM   #21
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What I was saying is that you used only CA's . . . you never used spells.  The spell damage might make a larger difference if what was being cast was actually . . . well . . . spells.You know what would make everyone happy?  Change the mechanical classification of our "Combat Arts" to "Spell".  At that point, +Spell Damage (which we have access to in quantity) would have a more significant impact on our DPS, regardless of whether the Mystic in question chose to go the "melee" route or "caster" route.It would also mean I could carry around a LOT less gear.  Right now I have three sets of gear, not including resist items.  I'd sure love to cut down on that a bit.
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Old 02-20-2008, 07:09 PM   #22
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Perhaps a compromise is possible here? make it +35ca +35sp and i'll be more than happy with this epic (aside from it NOT BEING A FRIKIN SPEAR!!!). As it is, i'm confused as usual at what the devs want mystics to be.  Why give us killer combat abilities that finally make us viable soloers, then have our most important item in the game tell us we should be using spells? Feels like ur handing me a piece of cake while peeing on my shoes...
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Old 02-21-2008, 11:49 AM   #23
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Make it pie and I'll follow what you're saying.. SMILEYIn all seriousness it would be nice if they were able to adjust the CAs to be considered "spells" as long as they preserve the fact they're "melee" hits as far as our Crits are concerned, that would be a major dealbreaker otherwise. I wouldn't expect them to change combat art mechanics just for us (melee priests) though.Are there any spell-only mystics left out there that have a decent amount of +spell damage, +spell crit, etc that could even make a case for the standard even being a viable alternative to the standard alternate spec? Would there be a massive rise in defecated bricks if they made us melee priests from day 1 and gave us CAs instead of spells in our normal lineup? Would that upset some delicate balance of caster-chain?Mostly rhetorical questions but really I wonder if some of the melee priest 'oversight' is intentional and they're quiet about their vision for us or if it indeed is that they don't know. I doubt we'll ever really get an answer on that.
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Old 02-21-2008, 01:38 PM   #24
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>>>In all seriousness it would be nice if they were able to adjust the CAs to be considered "spells" as long as they preserve the fact they're "melee" hits as far as our Crits are concerned, that would be a major dealbreaker otherwise. I wouldn't expect them to change combat art mechanics just for us (melee priests) though.<<
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Old 02-21-2008, 10:24 PM   #25
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Aeralik wrote:

Death circle doesnt update currently because all damage is applied to the initial attack.  since the initial attack is a melee attack the +combat art damage will apply to it.  Fetid smite is basically a combat art as well and +combat art damage will apply to it.  On live currently this doesn't gain from spell damage since the lifetap is a secondary spell that is instant cast.  I did manage to get Tap Veins to work.  Pestilence is also working although its essentially a triggered spell so its gain is minimal due to that.
I was reading this thread and remember this old post by Aeralik about how +spell damage and +combat art worked in regards to certain Shadowknights spell and combat arts.  If nobody beats me to it I think I might compare these to our combat arts when I get home to see if I can get a better idea of how they are supposed to work.
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Old 02-22-2008, 01:53 PM   #26
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I wish I had written down the numbers, but when I scribed my Adept 3 damage spell upgrade at level 74 I checked my combat art version before and after and the number remained unchanged.Are our spell upgrades even affecting our combat art line or are we stuck in Tier 7 with the combat art AA line?P.S.100% agree with what Ordate is saying, and I'm not a hardcore raider either. (There just aren't any other worthwhile logical AA's to buy in my opinion... in fact, now that I have my Tradeskill epic I might respend my 5 SoW AA's somewhere else... I'm just not sure where.)
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Old 02-22-2008, 05:55 PM   #27
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Mayl wrote:

Really simple

+ spell damage helps ALL Mystics

+ca damage helps SOME Mystics

Why would you expect SoE to put something in that would not help all, vs some? 

I am not saying that the melee aa path is not the most common one, but it is a path, and not only way a mystic can spec their character.  That path is a choice and admitted to not being the only one.  All Mystics use spells though so SoE had to do it this way.

Why should you, if you spec melee aa get everything?  You want to have melee spec, free upgrades to the damage, and now + ca?   If you choose to go down the melee aa, you do so knowing you are giving up some of the benefit of the + spell damage.

Actually you are quite incorrect. + spell damage does not do so much to help 'all' mystics, since it does so very very very little (the upfront bang on 2 arts for the melee mystic). It helps 'some' mystics just like + combat art damage helps some mystics. All mystics 'could' use spells, but the melee mystic would have to NOT use their combat arts in order to do so, which pretty much defeats the purpose of having the combat oriented line that converts spells to arts.

I can't understand why you want to argue to continuing gimping a large portion of the class base (and not just raiders). All the melee mystics want is some equality as far as gear goes. As it stands the melee build is being completely ignored on gear & our epics. Only the spell caster build is being augmented, which seems awfully unfair to a lot of us since they made sure that the melee build was most appealing to the majority of the class with our EOF aa's.

We went down that path long before ROK was announced & long before we knew there would be a huge swing in favor of spell casters in this expansion. So we are dealing with SOE seemingly going to a 1 size fits all for both shaman classes rather than acknowledging that one size does not infact fit all.

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Old 02-22-2008, 06:12 PM   #28
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There are plenty of items wearable by Mystics with +CA on them . . . I have a whole kit of items that I use when solo'ing.  Thus why I have 3 full sets of gear before I even start talking about resist gear.I'm not sure what my overall +CA is, but it's fairly significant.  Not what I could get for spells, but then again, +CA stuff generally sits on Leather and Chain armor, where +Spell you often have to wear Cloth to get.
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Old 02-23-2008, 06:45 AM   #29
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Raider- soloer - grouper..i do it all...and im not to bothered with the +spell dmg.I read somewhere on these forums that we cant get much more out of our Combat Arts...and that we actually soon are hitting the cap...one person made a big list of reults testing with diffrent CA-gear vs Spell-gear...and there was harldy much change anymore in CA's compared to Spell-gear. Just like with anything else..you can noly add so much till you hit the cap.Again..I read this..im not saying this myself...i havnt tested it.So if this is correct..then SOE is doing right in giving us +spelldmg.Also...we are healers...not scouts. I only use my CA's when i solo or group..not when i raid. On raids i switch the AA- mirror to fully healerspecced. Im not intrested in wasting my time hitting the mob with CA..risking an Aoe and loose mana and then might not be able to keep the OT and group up. I much rather be close to them and cast my spell if I get a sec over.But mostly i keep wards up...debuffs up...and help healing tank.

Im sure there are mystics out there that prefer spells. I prefer combat arts...but only when Im soloing...and then Im doing just fine...Im not looking to do scoutdps....

So..what does the warden / inquis -gear look like...are they getting CA's ?Are we the only one missing it ?Why cant we say that we are happy that we have very nice group-procs on our weapon instead of moaning.I dont mind our weapon at all....if it had had less healing stuff on it id be more worried than now with the + spell. We are doing good as we are with CA's...wether or not we are specced that way ..or not...or even both ways.The ones that needs help is the spell-specced mystics...not CA' specced.

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Old 02-23-2008, 08:13 AM   #30
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i didn´t read all of the posts but...i don´t care about the spell or ca dmg on our epic. i just don´t wear this weapon for dps'ing.much more important for me is our set gear.changing +spelldmg, 20hp reg and so on into ca dmg or da whould be nice, but some that affects our healing like +castspeed, + reuse, ... whould be even nicer.if you want do dps, buy crafted gear with +45 ca/spelldmg on it (i hope there will be more scout/fighter gear w/o class restriction).raidgear should support you in what you do for getting it: in a raid mostly healing.and about our other raidgear:spelldmg, spellcrit blabla on non set vp raidgear for shaman / shaman+cleric gear is just dumb.like giving range crit on a rogue only item.don´t mind my bad spelling
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