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Old 09-19-2007, 01:15 PM   #91
Deterre

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DPS is a valid, but separate issue.Reguardless of how much or how little DPS rangers can do and reguardless of how much DPS other classes do, rangers have other problems which the devs are either completely oblivious to or are ignoring. Saying that rangers are overpowered, wether it is true or not, makes absolutely no difference because these issues are still there.
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Old 09-19-2007, 03:11 PM   #92
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Up until this last update, Rangers (despite all of the "constant nerfs&quotSMILEY were able to stay on top of the parses without a big problem.  Meaning, without recieving those nerfs, they would of been so far above everyone else it would be disgusting.

Now, with this LU38, I think something unintended occured.  From the pure mathematic standpoint, there really shouldn't of been much of a change in DWing DPS.  However, this is not the case, DWing DPS has rather skyrocketed at the moment for some reason.  I think this is more of a bug than anything else, but then again, sony may not think the same. lol

Scout DPS should go:Rangers/Assassins pretty much equal.withSwashie/Brig a little bit below them.Currently it is Assassins and Swashies up top, and brigands closing in on Rangers, if not being basically equal with them.

So something is not right for sure.

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Old 09-19-2007, 05:18 PM   #93
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Can we please move this thread to the combat forum rather than here. There were many other people other than rangers commenting on this thread nad now you buried it in the rangers forum...where guess what it is all rangers...go figure
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Old 09-19-2007, 06:12 PM   #94
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Personally i think they should get rid of ranged crit and have melee crit mods work the same for ranged. I don't like having a specialized set of bonuses/armor that pretty much 1 or two classes would want. The whole point of getting rid of dual wield weapons was so people would have a greater selection of weapons to choose from. Putting a lot of what would amount to ranger only gear out there would be unfair to the other scouts imho.
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Old 09-19-2007, 06:16 PM   #95
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lilmohi wrote:
Personally i think they should get rid of ranged crit and have melee crit mods work the same for ranged. I don't like having a specialized set of bonuses/armor that pretty much 1 or two classes would want. The whole point of getting rid of dual wield weapons was so people would have a greater selection of weapons to choose from. Putting a lot of what would amount to ranger only gear out there would be unfair to the other scouts imho.
The general consensus thus far has been to put a Ranged equivalent to the gear that currently has Melee Crit chance and Melee Double Attack bonuses.  And while they're doing that they could throw in some +Ranged on the same items that have +piercing and +slashing.
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Old 09-20-2007, 01:22 AM   #96
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FuriCuri wrote:
Ok, as someone said - there were a really good points about rangers. Tho I think it's useless to wait any devs to answer here I just prey they at least read this thread. My only wish now is... no... not the ranger itemization, buffs, procs, HO or cheaper shots - I really want to know what that man who designed ranger class is thinking now? I'm a professional developer and when I see users feedback me that my app does such problems I know what cause it: an architecture design flaw. It's not a bug. It's a architecture flaw. In wich case simple patch won't do - you need to redesign some architectures parts to make system work as intend. I really want to look into ranger class architector's face and ask him what the hell he was thinking? Look:
  1. Almost no itemization for ranger. What? Anyone saw any bow in epic quest reward? Lets take away all those +melee crit, +slahing and other +melee items from the game. And all melee and casters weapons from epic quest. Lets make all equall, don't you agree?
  2. To be like other scouts/predator we need hi-end gear which is cause of #1 is impossible to gain for 90% of player - so you just restrict 90% of customers to play ranger on fullest. Lets take away 90% of melee and caster items. Lets make all equall, don't you agree?
  3. There is no other class in game so expensive as ranger: poisons + arrows cost a fortune. So again, you force only a rich ones customers to play ranger (or mb it's just some support for plat sellers eh?). Tell me, why does not melee swing or caster nuke costs that much? Lets make all equall, don't you agree?
  4. We have no items (at least I don't heard anyone on world ranger channel found it) that proc on ranged. Lets take away all procs from melee. Lets make all equall, don't you agree?
  5. For our HO to trigger we must use melee. Lets take melee HO to ranged? Make all equall, don't you agree?
Dam I'm so angry cause of that unfairness! I really wish SOE transfer some of their powers to fix broken class isntead of doing RoK.
What I am talking about is rarity of+ranged, bows, and consumables. While you are right about it being an architecture problem, your mad if you think your 5 points are what we are saying.
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Old 09-20-2007, 08:36 AM   #97
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It would be nice if HO's included the ranged skill, since that's what most of our attacks are. But I've lived without that for so long, it's not exactly a deal breaker. If you're fighting at the cross point where melee ends and ranged kicks in, it's not too much of a problem to hit a melee CA.

It would be nice if there were some more +ranged crit items out there, but again... I can deal with it. We've got Focus Aim which pretty much guarantees us constant crits for 15 seconds (assuming you have the AA piled into it) and that's up every minute or so, faster if you get a Jesters Cap.

It would be nice if the EoF set gear had +INT on it, but we can get INT from both jewellery, adornments and your group buffs. Illusionist in your group gives you Illusory Arm for double attack, as well as a groupwide INT buff. There's also potions if we need them.

It would be nice if the EoF set gear had +ranged skill on them instead of +parry etc, but again, you can get that +skill from your offensive stance (42 ish if I recall correctly at M1) as well as other gear, for example:

Natures Gloves Of The Stalker from Sarik in EH has +7 ranged.Fearling Tot Bulb Bone from Gnorbl in LoA has +4 ranged.Eavesdropper Earring from FTH has +3 ranged.Ring of Relkententinar from Labs has +7 ranged.

All of those should be accessable to any raiding Ranger who would find +skill useful on orange mobs. If you're not fighting epic / orange mobs, then the lack of extra skill is of negligible consequence. I wear certain items for fighting yellows, then swap them out for others when I want the extra skill on oranges. So you won't be wearing the full set of EoF fabled. Meh.

It's a bit of a pain that things like the Paladins' +skills AA doesn't include +ranged, but even without that, I still have the highest hit% of anyone in my raid on Mayong.

And the handcrafted fieldpoint arrows have a better accuracy on them than my summoned T8 legendary from Ichorstrand.

I think my long winded point is that whilst it'd be appreciated if there were more things that Rangers were able to make use of, we're not exactly badly off here...

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Old 09-20-2007, 09:48 AM   #98
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[email protected] wrote:

It would be nice if HO's included the ranged skill, since that's what most of our attacks are. But I've lived without that for so long, it's not exactly a deal breaker. If you're fighting at the cross point where melee ends and ranged kicks in, it's not too much of a problem to hit a melee CA.

It would be nice if there were some more +ranged crit items out there, but again... I can deal with it. We've got Focus Aim which pretty much guarantees us constant crits for 15 seconds (assuming you have the AA piled into it) and that's up every minute or so, faster if you get a Jesters Cap.

It would be nice if the EoF set gear had +INT on it, but we can get INT from both jewellery, adornments and your group buffs. Illusionist in your group gives you Illusory Arm for double attack, as well as a groupwide INT buff. There's also potions if we need them.

It would be nice if the EoF set gear had +ranged skill on them instead of +parry etc, but again, you can get that +skill from your offensive stance (42 ish if I recall correctly at M1) as well as other gear, for example:

Natures Gloves Of The Stalker from Sarik in EH has +7 ranged.Fearling Tot Bulb Bone from Gnorbl in LoA has +4 ranged.Eavesdropper Earring from FTH has +3 ranged.Ring of Relkententinar from Labs has +7 ranged.

All of those should be accessable to any raiding Ranger who would find +skill useful on orange mobs. If you're not fighting epic / orange mobs, then the lack of extra skill is of negligible consequence. I wear certain items for fighting yellows, then swap them out for others when I want the extra skill on oranges. So you won't be wearing the full set of EoF fabled. Meh.

It's a bit of a pain that things like the Paladins' +skills AA doesn't include +ranged, but even without that, I still have the highest hit% of anyone in my raid on Mayong.

And the handcrafted fieldpoint arrows have a better accuracy on them than my summoned T8 legendary from Ichorstrand.

I think my long winded point is that whilst it'd be appreciated if there were more things that Rangers were able to make use of, we're not exactly badly off here...

If you look into all our points sepparately then yes - you could come to conclusion that we are not in bad shape. But if you summ all of those little "cons" you should see the real picture - we need a serious fixes.
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Old 09-20-2007, 10:25 AM   #99
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I am by no means uberly geared compared to the truly hardcore Rangers, yet I seem to muddle through without too much difficulty.  SMILEY

So the Ranger class isn't perfect - name me one class that is. Given the chance, yeah, I'd like some things altered. I mean, it'd be cool if CoB worked on ranged, but really when you get down to it, what'd be the point? Bows are slow delay weapons; even with full Haste on, how many shots are you going to get off to cause the proc? The increase to your DPS would be marginal. Melee will hit far more during that time period, so if you want the procs, run in and hit 'em. Question is, would you do more DPS via melee + CoB than you would straight auto attacking with CAs in between? Tombs Calm - now there's a buff I really enjoy.

We get a natural proc with our offensive stance, a double attack proc with the right AA setup, poison procs and damage procs off your bow (Raincaller at the very least). Combine that with buffs from Coercers, Dirges, Zerkers, Inquisitors, Crusaders, Conjurors (all of whom have +DPS mods or procs that work off your bow) and you're laughing.

But there truly is nothing at the moment that can't be overcome with a little bit of thinking and common sense... /shrug

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Old 09-20-2007, 10:37 AM   #100
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From what I have seen, if you're fighting solo mobs, then in all honesty, Raincaller and a stun poison is all you need.

If you're fighting heroics in a group, then you don't really need the +ranged skills mods. Do you really miss that many shots on mobs in Unrest (the hardest non-raid instance I can think of right now)? When you're fighting an orange epic, heck yes, every hit counts and every missed hit is a curse. That's when you need +ranged. Why do you need the best fabled gear if you aren't fighting epics? If you prefer not to raid, then the Legendary set is well within reach and will serve well.

Up until T7, we were really poorly served for bows. No quested ones, no drops... I had mastercrafted right up until I got a Wurm Destroyer in Labs. Now, you can get them from Claymore, Unrest has a nice one, there's Raincaller from an HQ... We're not hard done by here. The non-raiding Ranger has a lot more at his fingertips now than I did back when I was lv50.  SMILEY<img src=

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Old 09-20-2007, 10:48 AM   #101
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[email protected] wrote:

From what I have seen, if you're fighting solo mobs, then in all honesty, Raincaller and a stun poison is all you need.

If you're fighting heroics in a group, then you don't really need the +ranged skills mods. Do you really miss that many shots on mobs in Unrest (the hardest non-raid instance I can think of right now)? When you're fighting an orange epic, heck yes, every hit counts and every missed hit is a curse. That's when you need +ranged. Why do you need the best fabled gear if you aren't fighting epics? If you prefer not to raid, then the Legendary set is well within reach and will serve well.

Up until T7, we were really poorly served for bows. No quested ones, no drops... I had mastercrafted right up until I got a Wurm Destroyer in Labs. Now, you can get them from Claymore, Unrest has a nice one, there's Raincaller from an HQ... We're not hard done by here. The non-raiding Ranger has a lot more at his fingertips now than I did back when I was lv50.  SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=

We need more items - like all melee do. We want to have an opportunity to choose which item to use with personal play style.And what about dps argument? It's not only cause of item. We need more dps so we could outstand rouges in dps terms (and outstand a lot) since we have no utility.
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Old 09-20-2007, 11:04 AM   #102
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Let me put this into some perspective.I am what some might call a mid-average raiding Ranger.  I have been in every EoF zone, cleared MMIS up to Mayong, been to the 2nd floor of EH, which of course means I've done KoS zones 50+ times on each zone.  I have been through FTH/MMIS/CWF at least 20+ times and EH at least a dozen.Look up my profile, look at my gear.  The only thing that stands out is my bow, which I paid 220p for.My Ranged skill in offensive stance is 387...that sucks, plan and simple.  I went Assassin before the GU38 update because I've always wanted to try things on the darker end of the Predator tree.  I was only an Assassin for a month because I preferred the play style of the Ranger more, the point is from a few labs runs and some fabled adornments my piercing skill was at 424 and it was EASILY obtainable -like I said, was only an Assassin for a month.And no, I'm not a nub Ranger who doesn't know my class, I've been a Ranger since December of 2004 (took a break from him mind you) but there isn't that +ranged gear available like there is for the +piercing and +slashing, plain and simple.
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Old 09-20-2007, 03:32 PM   #103
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Chiming in here.

I'm not a numbers cruncher.  I leave that to the folks who are way more talented in that department, and take my cue from them.  I'm just going to say, quite simply, that itemization for rangers is entirely screwed up.

Bows -- I have been raiding HoS for over a year now. I have never, ever, EVER seen the bow from Venekor drop. Ever. DT, about the same amount of time. I have NEVER seen the bow from Tarinax (and that bow is rather mediocre), and I have only seen Ichorstrand once (went to another ranger, the bow itself is horrible, he immediately equipped Rain Caller again and just used the summoned arrows.) I've seen Wyrm Destroyer plenty of times, and I've never once rolled on it, because it is absolutely crap. Ghazi? Killed him a number of times, no bow. Seen the stats on it, and it would be an upgrade, but not an amazing one. Sarik's bows are junk, as previously explained.

And as for the tradeskilled bow from Woushi? Whoever up there said their friends told them it is commonly on the broker on AB, that is absolutely and utterly wrong. I have, simply for the sake of checking, checked for this bow every single time I've checked the broker SINCE IT WAS PUT INTO THE GAME. It finally showed up, for the absolute FIRST time, about a week ago. Y'wanna know what the price tag is?

400pp.

Lemme emphasize that a bit more, so you can really grasp it.

400 platinum pieces.

Oh, and it was originally 450pp.

[Removed for Content], that's very attainable, especially given the fact I spend so much money when I go raiding I might as well be flinging plat at mobs.

Arrows -- Speaking of flinging plat at mobs. Hey, bard, person who talked about our summon ability? Guess what? Tradeskilled arrows have been better ever since they changed them, and more recently, they NERFED our summoned arrows even further, so no one in their right MIND would take those to a raid, and I'm even wary about taking them to a group. That means we buy our arrows. Oh, and by the way, the summoned arrows for the DT bows were nerfed too.

Oh yeah. And about poisons. That bit about us proccing more? Guess what that means for poisons? Yeah.

Gear -- Lemme put it this way. It is very, very rare that I have seen something drop on a raid that would benefit me at all.

I'm not a top end ranger. I'm not in a top end raiding guild. Every single nerf that has been meant to bring down the DPS of the creme de la creme of the ranger crowd affects them slightly and nerfs me hugely. I dunno, honestly, what's the best thing to be done. Frankly, the entire ranged system might need an overhaul.

For now though, I've pretty much given up on raiding. I don't think I've been on a raid in two months. I can't keep up with rogues, summoners, or assassins, I bring nothing but my damage to the raid, and I am so sick of HoS and DT I could puke.

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Old 09-20-2007, 05:07 PM   #104
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1st of all... its noce to see so many other classes representatives take part of this fruitful conversation... i guess they all gonna roll a ranger (if they dont have one already) and enjoy the 733t yb4h Ranger:ness! Ok, fine, go now already!

/sniffle

I have many times disagreed with Ranja (the OP) since he seems to have pretty solid opinions about things and not all of em correlate with mine. This is fine. However, i 100% agree with him in this one and have to really say that this ranger and ranged nerfing really has to stop.

And [Removed for Content] PvP. Really, stick it where sun dont shine. Yes, i know there are issues in PvP regarding ranged autoattack dmg + proccing being too high... theres simple solutions to that. However, this thread had originally nothing to do with PvP, so why dont we leave it out? And am i completely wrong, but wast this game originally build around PvE? And PvP didnt suppose to affect the game balance in any way?? Enuff with that thou (for now SMILEY).

And i apologise if i sounded harsh, just that im kinda [Removed for Content] off atm about what i read *pfffffffffffffft*

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Old 09-20-2007, 06:17 PM   #105
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xandez wrote:

1st of all... its noce to see so many other classes representatives take part of this fruitful conversation... i guess they all gonna roll a ranger (if they dont have one already) and enjoy the 733t yb4h Ranger:ness! Ok, fine, go now already!

/sniffle

I have many times disagreed with Ranja (the OP) since he seems to have pretty solid opinions about things and not all of em correlate with mine. This is fine. However, i 100% agree with him in this one and have to really say that this ranger and ranged nerfing really has to stop.

And [I cannot control my vocabulary] PvP. Really, stick it where sun dont shine. Yes, i know there are issues in PvP regarding ranged autoattack dmg + proccing being too high... theres simple solutions to that. However, this thread had originally nothing to do with PvP, so why dont we leave it out? And am i completely wrong, but wast this game originally build around PvE? And PvP didnt suppose to affect the game balance in any way?? Enuff with that thou (for now SMILEY<img src=" />).

And i apologise if i sounded harsh, just that im kinda [Removed for Content] off atm about what i read *pfffffffffffffft*

++Xan

Wait, Xan, you have disagreed with me SMILEY
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Old 09-20-2007, 06:31 PM   #106
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[Removed for Content] go figure, this thread gets moved to ranger forum, thats nice...while there are a 2 threads for bruisers in the testing thread...just bury us devs, and please nerf us some more...maybe give us some +melee crit class gear, that would be so awsome!
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Old 09-20-2007, 06:56 PM   #107
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joshshift wrote:
[I cannot control my vocabulary] go figure, this thread gets moved to ranger forum, thats nice...while there are a 2 threads for bruisers in the testing thread...just bury us devs, and please nerf us some more...maybe give us some +melee crit class gear, that would be so awsome!
It wasn't the devs who buried this.  But never fear, they are aware and are working on it.  I can't say much more about it than that.  I've been warned.
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Old 09-21-2007, 03:16 AM   #108
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Being warned too (my post here was removed). And I was told that this thread has been bringed to devs attention so lets prey for the better since it's not just winning here but a reasonable and argued complains about game mechanics.
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Old 09-21-2007, 06:17 AM   #109
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As a ranger on a pvp server who is also in a raiding guild, first off for all you pve rangers, don't throw stones at us.  PvP ruleset IS different than PvE ruleset.  Our PvP autoattack damage received significant nerfs, along with all our CA damage, weapons ratings, AND the same 'fixes' to melee procs off bows.  The majority of posts complaining about rangers dps in pvp are from the same small group of people time after time.

As a player who has played other classes as well, altho not to 70 on all, I can state unequivocally that no other class has the raid expenditures we do in order to 'bring' our top DPS.

The amount of items that proc off melee vs. ranged are unequal to say the least.  The same goes for items that give plus to ranged or ranged crit.  Yes there are items that drop in the toughest raid zones, subject to the RNG.

No, there are no epic bow quests.  Melee rules all there.

As to the Ghostly bow of Bylze, as a level 59 treasured bow, this really can't be compared to an epic weapon.

All rangers, both PvE and PvP, whether raiding or not, need equality to our melee brethren. 

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Old 09-21-2007, 10:18 AM   #110
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Ranja wrote:
Wait, Xan, you have disagreed with me SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />

erm maybe a few times, sry SMILEY

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Old 09-21-2007, 11:23 AM   #111
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Encantador wrote:

TRUE: Ranged attack is more like spell attack.

Hey, I would love that. No more paying a fortune for arrows. Make our bows run on mana. SMILEYAnd I will just say about the Qeynos Kilij and other swords proccing off ranged. HELLO, this is a FANTASY game. In Harry Potter 7, Harry is just sitting there and his wand blows something up. He didn't even think about it or point his wand at it. And in EQ2, there are many items (cloaks, armor, jewelry) that has special effects on a successful attack. So you cannot say it is cut and dried that only by USING the sword can the sword's effects be triggered.  Again, this is a FANTASY game and the developers can do pretty much what they want.If you want to see what trying to be "realistic" does to the game, try to use a horse in combat with a scout class. You'll get yourself killed.
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