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Old 09-19-2007, 08:50 AM   #61
blacksheep12183

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That's the most absolutely flawed logic I have seen in some time. 

 Until recently Grinning dirk was arguably THE best Assassin weapon, drops in [Removed for Content] KoS, where does the best ranger bow drop?  Off of wuoshi or VL Mayong.

 Your trouby uses alot of arrows?  Ever went through 1000 arrows in a raid?  That's on a short raid. 

 Our bows proc alot due to the delay?  Wrong, they proc on a higher percent of our attacks, still equals out to almost EXACTLY the same as other scouts. Why?  Because 1.8 times per minute usually means almost exactly that.

Here is the biggest thing. WE DON'T HAVE ANY UTILITY.  We are THE t1 dps because we don't get massive debuffs, hate transfers or huge raid making buffs.   If a raid leader has 2 Brigands and a ranger, All of whom can do roughly equal dps.  The correct answer SHOULD be 1 ranger one brigand. IT'S NOT because if you have a brigand and a ranger who do roughly equal dps but you can have 2 dispatches, and also another debuffer to help out why the hell wouldn't you?  Rangers are getting more and more broken and it's like a hobby for the devs to see how much that can screw us.

 All you people who keep crying about ranger DPS can go lick a window.  If you had any idea what you were actually talking about then you would be agreeing with the original poster.

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Old 09-19-2007, 09:11 AM   #62
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Did you ever consider that a very large portion of bards inflict their primary damage using a bow? Yes, troubadors and dirges can go through just as many arrows as you on a raid, and quite frequently do. Yes, your proc rate is theoretically equal to that of a 1.6 delay melee weapon when haste is taken entirely out of the equation. Consider the proc rate of a 9.0 delay bow shooting every ~4 seconds with capped haste. (If you're a ranger and not getting capped haste every time you raid, you need to talk to your raid leader about that) And lastly, we SHOULD be comparing classes at the absolute full potential with the absolute best gear and raid setup possible. I mean do you honestly think that ranger dps should be increased so that lesser rangers can feel a little better about their damage output? Did you ever consider how badly this would skew the rangers that DO have all the gear available in the game? I mean, you talk as if getting a decent bow in this game is hard. Killing Mayong in MMIS was hard 2 months after EoF came out. There's guilds out there that can kill it in under 2 minutes now. The bow he drops with the new proc is one of the best in the game at the moment, and he's open every 5 days, it's not like its unfair because you have to fight another guild over a contested mob to get it. Have you ever even zoned into Emerald Halls? Sarik the Fang was a 'free loot just for zoning in' mob last time I checked. He drops a couple decent bows. By decent I mean better that stupid T6 un-adornable Rain Caller alot of you fools are using.
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Old 09-19-2007, 09:56 AM   #63
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I don't care about hi-end bow. As blacksheep12183 correctly stated - since I don't give any utility I want to be faaar beyong any other class in terms of dps. And this should be with the same equipment as the most classes have (i.e. legendary items). Who can say that this is not right?
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Old 09-19-2007, 10:08 AM   #64
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[email protected] wrote:
Did you ever consider that a very large portion of bards inflict their primary damage using a bow? Yes, troubadors and dirges can go through just as many arrows as you on a raid, and quite frequently do. Yes, your proc rate is theoretically equal to that of a 1.6 delay melee weapon when haste is taken entirely out of the equation. Consider the proc rate of a 9.0 delay bow shooting every ~4 seconds with capped haste. (If you're a ranger and not getting capped haste every time you raid, you need to talk to your raid leader about that) And lastly, we SHOULD be comparing classes at the absolute full potential with the absolute best gear and raid setup possible. I mean do you honestly think that ranger dps should be increased so that lesser rangers can feel a little better about their damage output? Did you ever consider how badly this would skew the rangers that DO have all the gear available in the game? I mean, you talk as if getting a decent bow in this game is hard. Killing Mayong in MMIS was hard 2 months after EoF came out. There's guilds out there that can kill it in under 2 minutes now. The bow he drops with the new proc is one of the best in the game at the moment, and he's open every 5 days, it's not like its unfair because you have to fight another guild over a contested mob to get it. Have you ever even zoned into Emerald Halls? Sarik the Fang was a 'free loot just for zoning in' mob last time I checked. He drops a couple decent bows. By decent I mean better that stupid T6 un-adornable Rain Caller alot of you fools are using.
OMG! Do you got through 5000 arrows in MMiS. No I doubt it. Does anyone? No I doubt it. Poeple just do not understand the amount of arrows that rangers go through. Let me repeat 5000 arrows. That is 6g a stack that is 6gx50 = 3p. That is 3p in arrows alone a night.  Please do not talk about things you do not fully understand.Let me repeat 5000 arrows. 3p in arrows! 5000 arrows 3p in arrows alone.
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Old 09-19-2007, 10:13 AM   #65
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blacksheep12183 wrote:

Until recently Grinning dirk was arguably THE best Assassin weapon, drops in [Removed for Content] KoS, where does the best ranger bow drop?  Off of wuoshi or VL Mayong.

Your trouby uses alot of arrows?  Ever went through 1000 arrows in a raid?  That's on a short raid. 

Our bows proc alot due to the delay?  Wrong, they proc on a higher percent of our attacks, still equals out to almost EXACTLY the same as other scouts. Why?  Because 1.8 times per minute usually means almost exactly that.

Here is the biggest thing. WE DON'T HAVE ANY UTILITY.  

Rangers are getting more and more broken and it's like a hobby for the devs to see how much that can screw us.

It still is one of the best weapons available for melee DPS. Just for some comparisson, I've been doing Lyceum every week for almost a year now. Ive seen it drop ONCE and I didn't win it. The drop rate on that dagger is [Removed for Content]. Ive seen the bow off Venekor drop three times, yet only seen the GDoH once.

Yes, my troubie uses alot of arrows. Obviously I'm not going to use as many as a ranger, but I do use them. 1000 arrows used eh? With a 9 second bow, with capped haste, your auto-attack would be firing off every 4 seconds. Which means you're IN-combat for 66 minutes and 40 seconds to fire that many arrows. That's assuming that you aren't using arrow rip (summons your last used arrow right?) also assumes you are double attacking at 10%. Also assumes you have 200 Haste mod for 100% of the fight (which I'm almost certain you wont have) and assumes that you don't screw up and delay every other auto-attack by half a second etc. The absolute shortest ammount of time needed to fire 1000 arrows with 10% double-attack and a permanent 200 haste mod is 66 minutes and 40 seconds. How many bloody raid zones do you spend over an hour IN-COMBAT!? Not many. You may have used 1000 arrows easily before they changed CAs to not require them, but now, you'd have to be wiping a hell of alot, or have extremely bad raid DPS in order to do it.

Your bows proc on a high % of your attacks. I know how normalisation works If you're attacking once for every 8 melee attacks that I'm making, then you will have 8 times better proc chance per attack.No, you don't have utility. I agree. Rangers don't get utility.

Hobby for the devs? I'm sorry but this line just sounds like "Waa!! Look at me! Look at me!" You want to see a REAL nerf? Take a look at what happened to the crowd control ability of a Troubador in LU24. 75% effectiveness nerf for our mez, 97.5% duration nerf on charm. 97.5%. How would you like YOUR class defining ability nerfed by 97.5%? How does only doing 75 DPS sound to you?

Rangers are NOT special, and the devs are NOT trying to kill the class. Grow up.

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Old 09-19-2007, 10:15 AM   #66
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Ranja wrote:
OMG! Do you got through 5000 arrows in MMiS. No I doubt it. Does anyone? No I doubt it. Poeple just do not understand the amount of arrows that rangers go through. Let me repeat 5000 arrows. That is 6g a stack that is 6gx50 = 3p. That is 3p in arrows alone a night.  Please do not talk about things you do not fully understand.Let me repeat 5000 arrows. 3p in arrows! 5000 arrows 3p in arrows alone.
You'd need to spend 5 hours IN-COMBAT with 10% double attack and 125% haste in order to fire that many arrows. Either stop sucking so badly, or stop exagerating your figures.
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Old 09-19-2007, 10:29 AM   #67
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[email protected] wrote:
Did you ever consider that a very large portion of bards inflict their primary damage using a bow? Yes, troubadors and dirges can go through just as many arrows as you on a raid, and quite frequently do. Yes, your proc rate is theoretically equal to that of a 1.6 delay melee weapon when haste is taken entirely out of the equation. Consider the proc rate of a 9.0 delay bow shooting every ~4 seconds with capped haste. (If you're a ranger and not getting capped haste every time you raid, you need to talk to your raid leader about that) And lastly, we SHOULD be comparing classes at the absolute full potential with the absolute best gear and raid setup possible. I mean do you honestly think that ranger dps should be increased so that lesser rangers can feel a little better about their damage output? Did you ever consider how badly this would skew the rangers that DO have all the gear available in the game? I mean, you talk as if getting a decent bow in this game is hard. Killing Mayong in MMIS was hard 2 months after EoF came out. There's guilds out there that can kill it in under 2 minutes now. The bow he drops with the new proc is one of the best in the game at the moment, and he's open every 5 days, it's not like its unfair because you have to fight another guild over a contested mob to get it. Have you ever even zoned into Emerald Halls? Sarik the Fang was a 'free loot just for zoning in' mob last time I checked. He drops a couple decent bows. By decent I mean better that stupid T6 un-adornable Rain Caller alot of you fools are using.
Sarik the Fang drops two bows; Nature's Bow of Stalker and Wind Shaped Bow. Due to the way that the bow and arrow mechanics work, they both are quite crap unless you have T8 ammo (extremely rare DT drop). - Nature's Bow of Stalker (level 70 FABLED, 99.5 DR, +2% ranged crit) does on average 2859 DPM with only auto attack.
  • Ghostly Bow of Bylze (level 59 TREASURED, 72.28 DR, no proc) does on average 2807 DPM with only auto attack.
 - Wind Shaped Bow (level 70 FABLED, 94.7 DR, 453 piercing damage 1.7 times per minute) does 2723 DPM with only auto attack.
  • Raincaller (level 57 FABLED 75 DR, 79-146 magic damage 1.8 times per minute) does 2771 DPM with only auto attack.
As you can see, one bow is worse than both of the only easily accessible bows and the other does 52 DPM (less than 0.9 DPS) more than Bylze. What kind of upgrade is that? :/It's this kind of crap that drives some rangers to use Raincaller for lvl 70 raiding. It's pathetic, as even you stated. But of course people don't look at/know about that, they look at the top uber-rangers with their T8 ammo, Rigid Scale Bows and full-fabled superstuff...
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Old 09-19-2007, 10:34 AM   #68
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I played a guildmate's ranger in Deathtoll about a month ago because he needed to finish off claymore. Parsed 2.3k zonewide with nature's bow of the stalker. The rest of his gear is complete and utter garbage. I was using adamantine fieldpoints.
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Old 09-19-2007, 10:44 AM   #69
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You know he's not that far off when it comes to arrow consumption.  If you go look at my gear I am wearing nothing special, yet I have 8% double attack and near 100 haste self buffed.  It would be easy for a Ranger to be self buffed to be past 110 Haste and sitting at 18%+ auto attack.  Now hopefully said Ranger would get some buff loving from either a Dirge or an Illusionist so then you're looking at 28% to 43% double attack and what..? 150ish haste?When I bought arrows I would spend 2p-3.5p per night depending on where I was raiding at what the broker prices were.  Put another 2p on top of that for poisons and that is what I would spend a night to compete for top parser.I want some of you nay sayers out there to realize that this hurt all Rangers hard - the 4 straight GU nerfs to the Ranger class - .  I am happy the GU38 changes came in, I'm glad to see that Assassins and Rogues are doing a lot more damage because things are dying a lot faster and that is for the betterment of the raid.  However, the mid/average Rangers are being blown out of the water by these classes now because of a lack of itemization.  If you look through all KoS, Fallen Dynasty and EoF where is all the Ranger gear?  For KoS there are very -very- few items with +ranged on them yet you'll find several +piercing, +slashing and +crushing.  And I'm not even going to get into KoS bows...  Now lets look at Fallen Dynasty...exactly.  Moving on to EoF, there is Ranger gear but it's all from Emerald Halls, it has helped us that the set pieces are now dropping in FTH and MMIS but as someone mentioned the Ranger set pieces don't give stats that Rangers need...who thought of that one?So now think of all the gear out there that has 1-2% melee crit bonus...why not just slap the same ranged crit bonus on it?  That quested earring out of LP has 1% melee crit...put a 1% ranged crit on it as well.  Static Aura tunic from CWF has 2% melee crit...again, slap the same 2% for ranged crit on it.Alright, what about the epic quest lines?  Where are the Ranger rewards?  I can understand that 1 or 2 of the quest lines not having anything decent for rewards and that happens, however -thus far in all epic quest lines there has been NOTHING for the Ranger-.Basically people have been bringing up that Rangers still do the top damage in raids - The top end Rangers "probably" I'm not so sure now after the duel wield changes.  To grasp the situation entirely the community can't look at the top 5% of a class and make changes based on them that will effect the other 95% of us in a negative way.
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Old 09-19-2007, 10:49 AM   #70
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[email protected] wrote:
I played a guildmate's ranger in Deathtoll about a month ago because he needed to finish off claymore. Parsed 2.3k zonewide with nature's bow of the stalker. The rest of his gear is complete and utter garbage. I was using adamantine fieldpoints.
Depending on your group setup, you wouldn't parse much less with Bylze.
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Old 09-19-2007, 10:55 AM   #71
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blacksheep12183 wrote:

Here is the biggest thing. WE DON'T HAVE ANY UTILITY.  We are THE t1 dps because we don't get massive debuffs, hate transfers or huge raid making buffs.   If a raid leader has 2 Brigands and a ranger, All of whom can do roughly equal dps.  The correct answer SHOULD be 1 ranger one brigand. IT'S NOT because if you have a brigand and a ranger who do roughly equal dps but you can have 2 dispatches, and also another debuffer to help out why the hell wouldn't you?  Rangers are getting more and more broken and it's like a hobby for the devs to see how much that can screw us.

 All you people who keep crying about ranger DPS can go lick a window.  If you had any idea what you were actually talking about then you would be agreeing with the original poster.

Vadorn

You're dps....not utility.  Why the grief?  My swash is utility + DPS.  I'm not 'top tier' in either...nor should I be, without taking a hit in the other.
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Old 09-19-2007, 11:02 AM   #72
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:
You're dps....not utility.  Why the grief?  My swash is utility + DPS.  I'm not 'top tier' in either...nor should I be, without taking a hit in the other.
Well this thread is about Ranger DPS but about itemization.  But since this was brought up after the GU38 any Assassin or Rogue that isn't out DPSing their Ranger needs to look at their play style.  Right now there are reports coming in that personal DPS from Assassins and Rogues are up 200-600 zone wide while Rangers who used the Claymore lost 3-5% of their total zone wide damage.
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Old 09-19-2007, 11:09 AM   #73
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:
blacksheep12183 wrote:

Here is the biggest thing. WE DON'T HAVE ANY UTILITY.  We are THE t1 dps because we don't get massive debuffs, hate transfers or huge raid making buffs.   If a raid leader has 2 Brigands and a ranger, All of whom can do roughly equal dps.  The correct answer SHOULD be 1 ranger one brigand. IT'S NOT because if you have a brigand and a ranger who do roughly equal dps but you can have 2 dispatches, and also another debuffer to help out why the hell wouldn't you?  Rangers are getting more and more broken and it's like a hobby for the devs to see how much that can screw us.

 All you people who keep crying about ranger DPS can go lick a window.  If you had any idea what you were actually talking about then you would be agreeing with the original poster.

Vadorn

You're dps....not utility.  Why the grief?  My swash is utility + DPS.  I'm not 'top tier' in either...nor should I be, without taking a hit in the other.
DPS = 1UTITLITY = 1Swash = DPS + UTILITY = 1 + 1 = 2Ranger = DPS = 1See the difference? Yes, now swash dps almost the same as ranger. So if we want all be fair - give us 2*DPS since we have no utility.
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Old 09-19-2007, 11:10 AM   #74
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I think the point that everyone is dancing around but no one has come right out and said is sometimes you just want to be catered to.  I really dont think the devs hate rangers or are purposely trying to keep us down.  I dont think there's any conspiracy here.  What IS going on, however, is we seem to have gotten a little lost in the shuffle.  When you have 1 out of 24 classes that has unique needs and mechanics then it just becomes a matter of "oops, we seem to have overlooked you guys!"  At least that's my take on it.  We'd like to be noticed.  We'd like to be catered to.  We'd like some acknowledgement from the devs that we exist and that they are aware we have special needs that are as of right now, being ignored.  That'd be a nice start.
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Old 09-19-2007, 11:15 AM   #75
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[email protected] wrote:
Ranja wrote:
OMG! Do you got through 5000 arrows in MMiS. No I doubt it. Does anyone? No I doubt it. Poeple just do not understand the amount of arrows that rangers go through. Let me repeat 5000 arrows. That is 6g a stack that is 6gx50 = 3p. That is 3p in arrows alone a night.  Please do not talk about things you do not fully understand.Let me repeat 5000 arrows. 3p in arrows! 5000 arrows 3p in arrows alone.
You'd need to spend 5 hours IN-COMBAT with 10% double attack and 125% haste in order to fire that many arrows. Either stop sucking so badly, or stop exagerating your figures.
Try 35% double attack with IA and 131% base haste which can hit over 200% with my procs and buffs (honed, agility ring and focus aim). If you don't play a ranger you don't know. Get over it. This is what pisses rangers off. People coming in here that don't play rangers and trying to pretend they know what a ranger plays like and what we go through. Things like "oh everyone uses arrows get over it" or "use your summoned arrow skill". I still don't fully understand where all the ranger hate came from. Did a ranger wrong your family at some point? If I had to guess, it is from PvP, but that is just a guess.
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Old 09-19-2007, 11:24 AM   #76
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blacksheep12183 wrote:

Until recently Grinning dirk was arguably THE best Assassin weapon, drops in [Removed for Content] KoS, where does the best ranger bow drop?  Off of wuoshi or VL Mayong.

That's quite wrong actually. GDoH was the best assassin weapon during KoS. However at that time, where did the best ranger bows drop? From Tarinax, Ghazi and Venekor. That's three bows with high end dps potential vs one melee weapon (not counting Matron's bow since that was from an adventure pack). Keep in mind you need a 35%+ melee critical chance to make GDoH shine and those numbers weren't possible until EoF with the inclussion of gear with bonuses to melee criticals. So comparing KoS stats GDoH vs KoS bows is a perfectly reasonable thing.Now, with EoF we saw Bisected Saber which is a nice weapon but suffers from being a slasher, Soulfire Sabre and Dagger of Purity which became a favorite choice for most post GU38.Where do the best ranger bows drop? Off a crafted recipe from Wuoshi (which means you can actually buy one from other guilds if yours get shafted on the drop), Vampire Lord Mayong and MMIS Mayong. That's three top end bows vs a quested weapon, an instance drop and a random spawn drop.If you ask me, itemization for assassins and rangers is equal, weapons wise. Rogues may benefit from more variety with GU38 but for assassins going for a slasher isn't a very attractive option. Not saying that these nerfs are justified but you are trying to grasp for straws everywhere.
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Old 09-19-2007, 11:25 AM   #77
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I guess when dealing with loot one guilds good luck is another's bad luck.   In regards to Bows vs DW drops my guild has seen 6 bows drop since starting to raid KOS in January of this year 2 Wyrm destroyer, 2 Sinew wrapped long bows, Icorstand and Bazkul (I know spelling is off, and  the last two dropped in the last two weeks) while we have seen the GDoH 6 times and the Dirk of Negativity 4 (not to mention all the other DW weapons).  But the point that has been made is that the top of the line DW weapons do not drop off of end mob bosses where as the top of the line bows do.   Why not do away with personal loot tables for mobs and allow every named mob in a zone the same chance of dropping all items.  This would mean that you might see the same item more than once on a raid, but I'm willing to chance it.  

Should the DPS ‘tiers' be set based on classes outfitted with the best gear available to them?  Yes it probably should be, however that best gear should be equally difficult to acquire for each class and this is where the problem comes in.  If my raid force in only doing KOS raids then I as a ranger should be able to out dps (if I play my class correctly) any class that brings utility to the raid and this is not happening, it was last week, but not this week.  

This latest DW / proc change did not affect my DPS number very much, I lost a little DPS, I will adjust to this.  However what this last change did do was add 200-600 dps to each of the DW scouts in my raid force.  Why should a brig and a swash that are running the same zones as me, getting the same loot drops as me, be doing the same or more DPS as me when last week they were not.

Comparing DW weapons using a 1.6 second delay is not an accurate comparison either.  If we are going to make comparison with Rangers using top end bows, do the same with DW.  The 4 second delay on the GDoH makes the weapon a 5.3 second dealy when used dual weld so now we are seeing more procs from the DW weapons (and since more items proc from melee this gives even more damage).  

Saying that this thread is not about DPS would be untrue basically because when you talk about a Ranger everyone equates that with DPS because that is a rangers only function in a Raid.  We select our gear to maximize this, as does every class in the game (ok not healers).  I don't want to do 500 or 1000 dps more than anyone on the raid (ok I'd like to but I know it's not realistic) but since I don't bring any utility to a raid I want to do substantially more DPS than the other members of my raid force.  As our raid progresses to the higher end raids zones and we get better gear the raid dps should grow, but it should grow in the same percentages and the parse order should stay roughly the same.

I don't think this last GU was as much a nerf to rangers (although the nerf bad did swing our direction once again) as it was a boost to all other scouts. And I think the intent of this thread was to point that out - Rangers need love too!  If you don't want to give us better or more accessable items which will increase our dps then give us some utility.

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Old 09-19-2007, 11:26 AM   #78
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FuriCuri wrote:
DPS = 1UTITLITY = 1Swash = DPS + UTILITY = 1 + 1 = 2Ranger = DPS = 1See the difference? Yes, now swash dps almost the same as ranger. So if we want all be fair - give us 2*DPS since we have no utility.

Using your little math analogy as a starting point.....

Swash DPS < Ranger DPS = .5

Swash Utility < Other Class Utility = .5

0.5 + 0.5 = 1

Ranger DPS = 1

Honestly, if you want utility, roll a character that is a utility class.  You wanted DPS, (assumption), and with a Ranger, you have that.  I wanted a mix, I rolled a swash.  I do decent DPS, and bring decent utility to a group, or raid, but I'm not the best in either case, nor will I ever be. 

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Old 09-19-2007, 11:31 AM   #79
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Honestly, if you want utility, roll a character that is a utility class.  You wanted DPS, (assumption), and with a Ranger, you have that.  I wanted a mix, I rolled a swash.  I do decent DPS, and bring decent utility to a group, or raid, but I'm not the best in either case, nor will I ever be. 

Right now Rogues are doing the same if not more DPS then equally geared Rangers while keeping all the utility they had before.Personally I don't have a problem with scout DPS being increased- I'm actually all for it because it benefits the raid...More DPS = Mobs die faster.However, Rangers have 0 utility, all we have to bring to a raid is DPS, now that Rogues can do the same if not more DPS why should a raid bring a Ranger?
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Old 09-19-2007, 11:34 AM   #80
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[email protected] DLere wrote:
blacksheep12183 wrote:

Until recently Grinning dirk was arguably THE best Assassin weapon, drops in [Removed for Content] KoS, where does the best ranger bow drop?  Off of wuoshi or VL Mayong.

Where do the best ranger bows drop? Off a crafted recipe from Wuoshi (which means you can actually buy one from other guilds if yours get shafted on the drop),.

I can buy the best bow in the game from another guild?  I've been checking the broker daily since EOF came out for this bow.  I've send messages to the guilds on the server that clear EH weekly asking when they are going to sell the bow, and I kept getting told that we have no plans to sell those bows.  Well its 6 weeks or so before the expansion comes out and the level cap raises to 80, and the first bow appeared on our broker this week - for 250 pp.  Sure I can buy it!  Rangers Bows are easy to come by.

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Old 09-19-2007, 11:36 AM   #81
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:
FuriCuri wrote:
DPS = 1UTITLITY = 1Swash = DPS + UTILITY = 1 + 1 = 2Ranger = DPS = 1See the difference? Yes, now swash dps almost the same as ranger. So if we want all be fair - give us 2*DPS since we have no utility.

Using your little math analogy as a starting point.....

Swash DPS < Ranger DPS = .5

Swash Utility < Other Class Utility = .5

0.5 + 0.5 = 1

Ranger DPS = 1

Honestly, if you want utility, roll a character that is a utility class.  You wanted DPS, (assumption), and with a Ranger, you have that.  I wanted a mix, I rolled a swash.  I do decent DPS, and bring decent utility to a group, or raid, but I'm not the best in either case, nor will I ever be. 

OK since you are not understanding any of this let me spell it out for you.Swash DPS is greater than or equal to ranger DPS right now. In instances, where the ranger is not uber then swash DPS is greater than. Swash DPS >= Ranger DPSSwash Utility > Ranger Utility.Blame yourself if you are not parsing with the Rangers because you should be
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Old 09-19-2007, 11:40 AM   #82
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Ranja wrote:
[email protected] Bayle wrote:
FuriCuri wrote:
DPS = 1UTITLITY = 1Swash = DPS + UTILITY = 1 + 1 = 2Ranger = DPS = 1See the difference? Yes, now swash dps almost the same as ranger. So if we want all be fair - give us 2*DPS since we have no utility.

Using your little math analogy as a starting point.....

Swash DPS < Ranger DPS = .5

Swash Utility < Other Class Utility = .5

0.5 + 0.5 = 1

Ranger DPS = 1

Honestly, if you want utility, roll a character that is a utility class.  You wanted DPS, (assumption), and with a Ranger, you have that.  I wanted a mix, I rolled a swash.  I do decent DPS, and bring decent utility to a group, or raid, but I'm not the best in either case, nor will I ever be. 

OK since you are not understanding any of this let me spell it out for you.Swash DPS is greater than or equal to ranger DPS right now. In instances, where the ranger is not uber then swash DPS is greater than. Swash DPS >= Ranger DPSSwash Utility > Ranger Utility.Blame yourself if you are not parsing with the Rangers because you should be

Agree.  People that I was considerably out DPSing last week (and have been for months) are out DPSing me this week - and none of them got equipment upgrades, except for the changes in the DW weapons.   

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Old 09-19-2007, 11:55 AM   #83
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Ranja wrote:
OK since you are not understanding any of this let me spell it out for you.Swash DPS is greater than or equal to ranger DPS right now. In instances, where the ranger is not uber then swash DPS is greater than. Swash DPS >= Ranger DPSSwash Utility > Ranger Utility.Blame yourself if you are not parsing with the Rangers because you should be
Why don't we compare a swash and ranger that are equally equipped, and of comparable skill levels?  I can accurately claim that a level 70 Ranger in T1 armor, T1 weapons, using T1 App 1 spells will be out DPS'ed by a pair of fluffy bunny slippers.  It's a meaningless comparison.
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Old 09-19-2007, 12:23 PM   #84
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:
It's a meaningless comparison.
How are you coming to that conclusion when last week a Ranger was out DPSing their rogues now this week after the GU38 changes those same rogues are out DPSing (or having comparable overall DPS) to the Ranger?And how is that fine?Like I have mentioned before, I have -no- problems with the changes they made to weapons proc'ing off ranged attacks, I have no problems with the melee scouts getting a DPS boost, I have no problems with Assassins doing comparable or even out parsing me on encounters, what does baffle me is why/how Rogues are doing the same and you see no problem with that.
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Old 09-19-2007, 12:31 PM   #85
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[email protected] wrote:

I can buy the best bow in the game from another guild?  I've been checking the broker daily since EOF came out for this bow.  I've send messages to the guilds on the server that clear EH weekly asking when they are going to sell the bow, and I kept getting told that we have no plans to sell those bows.  Well its 6 weeks or so before the expansion comes out and the level cap raises to 80, and the first bow appeared on our broker this week - for 250 pp.  Sure I can buy it!  Rangers Bows are easy to come by.

Your server must suck because in LDL I see them on broker regularly. And I know from friends on AB that RSB make it there too regularly. The point remains, you can either get the best bow in game by yourself or check broker for it. As an assassin, I have no way of attaining a comparable melee weapon the same way as you do.
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Old 09-19-2007, 12:38 PM   #86
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Yes Rangers can buy the best bow in the game, I paid 220p for mine, however not everyone can afford this.  But one could also say that Assassins get a great weapon for completing the SoD, and I bet if you offered a guild 220p for a spot on a Mayong kill to get your SoD update they would.So weapons/bows can be bought, we all know this.  But the fact still remains where is the Ranger love in terms of itemization?  Why can't the melee crit gear also have a ranged crit component on them?  Why can't T7 MC rings also proc from ranged attacks?  Why does the Ranger EoF set not give stats that benefit a ranger? - I know that other classes got shafted as well when it came to their EoF set gear, it's just another thing that rangers got the short end of the stick with-
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Old 09-19-2007, 12:46 PM   #87
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[email protected] wrote:
[email protected] Bayle wrote:
It's a meaningless comparison.
How are you coming to that conclusion when last week a Ranger was out DPSing their rogues now this week after the GU38 changes those same rogues are out DPSing (or having comparable overall DPS) to the Ranger?And how is that fine?Like I have mentioned before, I have -no- problems with the changes they made to weapons proc'ing off ranged attacks, I have no problems with the melee scouts getting a DPS boost, I have no problems with Assassins doing comparable or even out parsing me on encounters, what does baffle me is why/how Rogues are doing the same and you see no problem with that.

Part of this is that I have not seen these increases in swash DPS.  Mine has gone up slightly....by around 60 - 70.  Not enough to materially affect the raid wide parses.  The people I out-DPS'ed pre LU38, I still out DPS.  Those that out-DPS'ed me, still do so.

I would really like to see some comparisons based on equally equipped characters, with comparable skill levels, across several different raids.   

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Old 09-19-2007, 12:51 PM   #88
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There are several posts from people on another forum (I don't want to name said forum for fear this thread would be locked) about Rogue DPS being comparable to Predator DPS now.Personally I have seen Rogues that dropped the 1 hander line and are now duel wielding and with a Dirge in their group are putting up some insane numbers.  Granted right now the 200-600 leap in personal DPS has a part of the proc rates being out of wack so once those get tweaked some I would gather those numbers would go down.However, the last 4 or 5 GU Rangers have taken some hit in terms of DPS, that would be enough to make anyone's butt sore.  The Rangers that are taking the biggest hit are those that are in the low to mid range in terms of raiding and gear, those that aren't doing Emerald Halls on a weekly basis because we lack the gear that the melee scouts have with their crit and double attack bonuses along with the sheer number of pieces that have +ranged on them.That is in essence what this thread is about - We have been taking hits the past 4-5 GU's - we "could" compensate for that if we had the +range, ranged crit gear that is available to the melee scouts for their melee combat.  I could understand a few items here or there that benefited from melee combat but not ranged- that's how things work, however this is NOT the case because the items that are more geared towards Rangers are far and few between while melee scouts can get melee crit and melee skills (pierching, slashing, crushing) gear from easy quest lines and drops.**Edited to add the +ranged thought at the end of the third paragraph**
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Old 09-19-2007, 01:02 PM   #89
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[email protected] wrote:

There are several posts from people on another forum (I don't want to name said forum for fear this thread would be locked) about Rogue DPS being comparable to Predator DPS now.

I can guess which forum, and I'll check it out.  This all is news to me...I just have'nt seen any earth shattering changes in my, (swashy), DPS.  Does'nt mean it has'nt happened, of course.  I just have'nt seen it.Personally I have seen Rogues that dropped the 1 hander line and are now duel wielding and with a Dirge in their group are putting up some insane numbers.  Granted right now the 200-600 leap in personal DPS has a part of the proc rates being out of wack so once those get tweaked some I would gather those numbers would go down.However, the last 4 or 5 GU Rangers have taken some hit in terms of DPS, that would be enough to make anyone's butt sore.  The Rangers that are taking the biggest hit are those that are in the low to mid range in terms of raiding and gear, those that aren't doing Emerald Halls on a weekly basis because we lack the gear that the melee scouts have with their crit and double attack bonuses along with the sheer number of pieces that have +ranged on them.That is in essence what this thread is about - We have been taking hits the past 4-5 GU's - we "could" compensate for that if we had the +range, ranged crit gear that is available to the melee scouts for their melee combat.  I could understand a few items here or there that benefited from melee combat but not ranged- that's how things work, however this is NOT the case because the items that are more geared towards Rangers are far and few between while melee scouts can get melee crit and melee skills (pierching, slashing, crushing) gear from easy quest lines and drops.**Edited to add the +ranged thought at the end of the third paragraph**

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Old 09-19-2007, 01:09 PM   #90
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[email protected] wrote:
Personally I have seen Rogues that dropped the 1 hander line and are now duel wielding and with a Dirge in their group are putting up some insane numbers.  Granted right now the 200-600 leap in personal DPS has a part of the proc rates being out of wack so once those get tweaked some I would gather those numbers would go down.

Prior to the DW change going live, extensive testing had been done, the result of which seemed to show that even after the change, 1Hd Rogues would still outparse DW Rogues by about 2%.

That seems to be the gist of agreement on the Swashy channel, too. However, all that testing may not have taken increased proc rates into account, & it's highly possible that those increased proc rates are illegitimate & will soon be nerfed.

IMHO, the 1H line *should* do the most DPS, simply because in order to do it, the Rogue is giving up substantial off-hand stats, off-hand weapon procs, & so forth. While it may seem obvious that dual-wield should give higher DPS, if that were true then no Rogue would take the 1H line, because despite our utility, what we really bring to a raid/group is DPS -- so we're likely gonna do whatever ups our DPS the most.

Finally, while I don't know this *for sure*, I've read in the past that Swashies are better off going AGI/WIS with a 1H weapon, while Brigands are best off going STR/AGI & dual-wielding. But I could be totally wrong about this, so don't quote me on it SMILEY

Back to the topic: it seems to me that what Rangers need more than anything else is some seriously improved itemization.

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