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Old 09-17-2007, 12:46 PM   #1
Ranja

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Just wanted to get a list going of all the spells and items that seem to overlook the fact that there are rangers in the game. I have a feeling the dev's dont even know that these are out here (or that we exist as a class). Add more if you like. This post is just to bring awareness to the imbalance to itemization and buffs towards the ranged skill.DIRGE CACOPHONY OF BLADES - NEEDS TO PROC OFF BOWSorceror damage procs (i.e. Phoenixeblade) - Needs to proc off bowFury Agitate - Needs to proc off bowFury Fae Fires - Needs to proc off bowTemplar Glory of Battle - Needs to proc off bowGuardian Call to Siege - Needs to give ranged skillTemplar Holy Redoubt - Needs to give ranged skillReplendant Robe of Battle - Needs to proc off bow and give ranged critFragment of the Chime - Needs to proc off bow (not 100% sure it doesn't atm; wording is ambiguous)Bracelet of the Chime - Needs to proc off bowRing of Tunarian Might - Needs to give ranged double attack.  This item having only melee double attack prevents non-dkp guild rangers from getting the set bonus (which gives ranged crit) because it's always more beneficial to give the ring to a melee scout.Crafted Imbued Strength Rings - Need to proc off bowRelic Hunter's Solitaire - Where is the ranged crit?  Quest rewards with melee crit should give ranged crit, too, unless there is a separate reward option with ranged crit.Vampire Jewelry - Proc works off bow, but where is the ranged crit?  Again, vampire jewelry items are quest rewards, and so should give both melee and ranged crit.Planar Orb of the Wanderer - Needs to proc off bowEpic quest rewards for rangers - 4 epic quest lines and still nothing???Ranged Master Strike - So I can use my ranged crit chance for itEoF Legendary set - no ranged skill at all
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Old 09-17-2007, 01:48 PM   #2
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The top dogs of pvp, and normally in the top 3 parses on raids and your [Removed for Content]?
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Old 09-17-2007, 02:50 PM   #3
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shagr1414 wrote:
The top dogs of pvp, and normally in the top 3 parses on raids and your [I cannot control my vocabulary]?
Aye i was kinda thinking the same thing, i know the 3 rangers in our guild raids dont seem to be hurting at all fo DPS  !!!
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Old 09-17-2007, 02:50 PM   #4
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shagr1414 wrote:
The top dogs of pvp, and normally in the top 3 parses on raids and your [I cannot control my vocabulary]?
Read the above, he's not talking about PVP.
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Old 09-17-2007, 02:52 PM   #5
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Sure, change the game to include all the above changes.

Then nerf the junk out of bow damage to compensate.

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Old 09-17-2007, 05:33 PM   #6
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Actually the past 5 Live Updates have been ranger nerfs. That's almost half a year.

If I was a ranger I'd be pretty [Removed for Content] [Removed for Content] at this bs.

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Old 09-17-2007, 06:36 PM   #7
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Cocytus wrote:

Actually the past 5 Live Updates have been ranger nerfs. That's almost half a year.

If I was a ranger I'd be pretty [I cannot control my vocabulary] [Removed for Content] at this bs.

Thanks Cocytus someone that can see beyond their own class.Rangers have been nerfed and nerfed endlessly. Know what is funny as I was posting this, I knew a bunch of people would come in here and whine those very whines. This is not about DPS, this is about parity among buffs and gear. The DW changes have made rogues and assassin jump to the top of the parse - I dont really care. I just want the devs to realize that +ranged is a skill and that + ranged crit is used as well. These are all oversights. There is no way a dev said I am going to give warriors a buff that buffs all offensive except ranged. Or I am going to make this item +mellee crit and not + ranged crit as well. This post was merely to point out that + ranged and + ranged crit is overlooked in this game.
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Old 09-17-2007, 09:42 PM   #8
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Ranja wrote:
Cocytus wrote:

Actually the past 5 Live Updates have been ranger nerfs. That's almost half a year.

If I was a ranger I'd be pretty [I cannot control my vocabulary] [Removed for Content] at this bs.

Thanks Cocytus someone that can see beyond their own class.Rangers have been nerfed and nerfed endlessly. Know what is funny as I was posting this, I knew a bunch of people would come in here and whine those very whines. This is not about DPS, this is about parity among buffs and gear. The DW changes have made rogues and assassin jump to the top of the parse - I dont really care. I just want the devs to realize that +ranged is a skill and that + ranged crit is used as well. These are all oversights. There is no way a dev said I am going to give warriors a buff that buffs all offensive except ranged. Or I am going to make this item +mellee crit and not + ranged crit as well. This post was merely to point out that + ranged and + ranged crit is overlooked in this game.

2k+ bow crits in PVP

(Don't know about PVE but I imagine bow crits are over 4k.)Cry more

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Old 09-17-2007, 09:54 PM   #9
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[email protected] wrote:
Ranja wrote:
Cocytus wrote:

Actually the past 5 Live Updates have been ranger nerfs. That's almost half a year.

If I was a ranger I'd be pretty [I cannot control my vocabulary] [Removed for Content] at this bs.

Thanks Cocytus someone that can see beyond their own class.Rangers have been nerfed and nerfed endlessly. Know what is funny as I was posting this, I knew a bunch of people would come in here and whine those very whines. This is not about DPS, this is about parity among buffs and gear. The DW changes have made rogues and assassin jump to the top of the parse - I dont really care. I just want the devs to realize that +ranged is a skill and that + ranged crit is used as well. These are all oversights. There is no way a dev said I am going to give warriors a buff that buffs all offensive except ranged. Or I am going to make this item +mellee crit and not + ranged crit as well. This post was merely to point out that + ranged and + ranged crit is overlooked in this game.

2k+ bow crits in PVP

(Don't know about PVE but I imagine bow crits are over 4k.)Cry more

i agree with the above posters.. c'mon you guys excel at dmg , even in pvp the burst dmg is unreal, and you're still whining?this should have happened before and still need a nerf on that auto dmg.
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Old 09-18-2007, 03:41 AM   #10
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that rangers do top dps does not mean they can not point out things that they see as flaws in game design.

 Why would so many buffs be for any melee, but not for rangers with a bow?

 If you guys have a problem with rangers...create your on threat about it. call for that nerf if you so wish. This guy only showes some flawed game design.

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Old 09-18-2007, 03:44 AM   #11
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firza wrote:
 If you guys have a problem with rangers...create your on threat about it. call for that nerf if you so wish. This guy only showes some flawed game design.
It's not a flaw. It's a fix. Rangers are still the most powerful class in the game, if all these things procced off of bows Freeport would be empty and everyone would be a ranger.
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Old 09-18-2007, 04:03 AM   #12
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I see all those who whine that rangers are overpowered comming from PvP server. So I suggest those ppl to go look for some other thread for PvP toons and start whining their "rangers are still uber" there. I really don't give a f..ck about PvP and the percent of ppl playing PvP is meaningless compared to PvE. So I think devs should sepparate game mechanics for PvP and PvE since there is no way they could balance it both. All I can see now is that PvE rangers hurting cause of PvP and thats really [Removed for Content] me off: it's like being punnished for the crime you never done.
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Old 09-18-2007, 04:24 AM   #13
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[email protected] wrote:
firza wrote:
 If you guys have a problem with rangers...create your on threat about it. call for that nerf if you so wish. This guy only showes some flawed game design.
It's not a flaw. It's a fix. Rangers are still the most powerful class in the game, if all these things procced off of bows Freeport would be empty and everyone would be a ranger.

errr, please inform us when exactly the mentioned spells have been fixed to not proc of a bow?

utility spells should bring utility for all classes, not just for some.

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Old 09-18-2007, 07:12 AM   #14
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If I read the OP right then the contention is that Rangers are melee based and hence all procs and buffs which affect melee should affect rangers?

Sounds ok to me. Of course this implies that all buffs and procs which affect ranged fighting should affect melee too.

Hmmm come to think of it why should a melee fighter get a proc off their secondary item when a ranger using a bow does not?

Yeah lets make bows trigger procs from other weapons and vice versa of course.

/cynicism off

CoB (and several of the other buffs) specifically have BLADES in their name. They are specifically intended to apply to close up fighting with blades. To try to get them applied to ranged fighting is no more than a whinge asking for a DPS boost.

If you feel that rangers need a boost then go make a post in the Rangers forum and stop clogging up the In Testing Feedback forum.

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Old 09-18-2007, 07:49 AM   #15
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Lets for a moment consider what you are saying.

1 : Ranged does not equal Melee. Its a class (not only skill) on its own

2 : there are buffs that specifically enhance ranged attack.

3 : There are buffs that specifically give ranged attacks procs.

If thats so, please inform me why dirges do not have an alternative for CoB (your exemple) for ranged fights?

Or is there maybe beside the 4 standard utility characters a fifth thats especially good in buffing for ranged fights?

sarcasm off: ranged is a skill that falls under melee and should be buffed with any melee buffs utility classes can provide. Don't look at it from a ranger dps perspective, but from a buff class perspective.

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Old 09-18-2007, 08:39 AM   #16
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So what you want is some ranged buffs, just like all the melee buffs out there?  If so, then you must be prepared to accept a little nerfage to ranger solo abilities so that the new buffs bring you back up to the top of the DPS tree ~ where you already are.
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Old 09-18-2007, 08:55 AM   #17
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This will be my last post in this thread because it is in the WRONG forum. If you want to continue this then repost in the Ranger forum and use the forum mail to tell me its there.

To quote you ...

Lets for a moment consider what you are saying.

1 : Ranged does not equal Melee. Its a class (not only skill) on its own

TRUE: Ranged attack is more like spell attack.

2 : there are buffs that specifically enhance ranged attack.

There are indeed buffs for ranged attack. Ok not many but a few.

3 : There are buffs that specifically give ranged attacks procs.

There are procs which only fire off ranged attack.

If thats so, please inform me why dirges do not have an alternative for CoB (your exemple) for ranged fights?

Err why should dirges have such a buff? Why not illusionist? or any other class.

Or is there maybe beside the 4 standard utility characters a fifth thats especially good in buffing for ranged fights?

sarcasm off: ranged is a skill that falls under melee and should be buffed with any melee buffs utility classes can provide. Don't look at it from a ranger dps perspective, but from a buff class perspective.

4 Standard utility characters??? I presume you mean Dirge, Fury, Guardian, and Templar. [see list in OP]

Of all the things you list only 1 is a buff from a 'Standard utility' class.

Melee attack is tuned to allow for being buffed.

I would have no problem if your post read ...

I think ranged attack should be buffed by other classes and items. Please developers cut ranged dps by X% and add buffs for ranged fights to make this cut back up.

Instead all I see is ...

It is so unfair that other fighters with far less autoattack damage than a ranger can do, get buffed by other classes and items to bring them close to ranger DPS. I think all these buffs should be put on rangers too so that we can stay way ahead of them.

Edit: Doh I take too long to type ... Spangles said it faster.

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Old 09-18-2007, 09:04 AM   #18
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I sincereley feel the need to inform  you all that the OP in his/her opening post does NOT talk about ranger dps.

He/She does NOT mention in the opening post that this post is about ranger dps. He/She specifically mentions buffs/procs/itemisation for ranged attacks.

that does not make guardians utility. That does not mean rangers dps is to low. That does not say anything about tweaking or not tweaking of ranged dps.

It only means that under discussion is are buffs/items that do, or do not, in large enough quantities with enough, or not enough, quality buff ranged auto attack. 

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Old 09-18-2007, 09:08 AM   #19
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You all do realize that the OP is essentially asking for a nerf to unbuffed Ranger DPS right?
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:09 AM   #20
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From Websters dictionary:Melee - A fight in which the combatants are mingled in one confused mass; a hand to hand conflict; an affray.To my knowledge Melee has always been up close combat which Ranged combat clearly isnt. Hence why melee buffs dont work with Ranged.I do agree that there are very few +ranged items out there though, but our guild rangers hit rate is very good without them due to the +stat for the relevant skill on your arrows.Yet there is a problem with +crit too ranged items which does seem to need some looking into.I could be wrong but this post still sounds like someone asking for a dps boost. SMILEY
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Old 09-18-2007, 10:21 AM   #21
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Chuffed wrote:
From Websters dictionary:Melee - A fight in which the combatants are mingled in one confused mass; a hand to hand conflict; an affray.To my knowledge Melee has always been up close combat which Ranged combat clearly isnt. Hence why melee buffs dont work with Ranged.I do agree that there are very few +ranged items out there though, but our guild rangers hit rate is very good without them due to the +stat for the relevant skill on your arrows.Yet there is a problem with +crit too ranged items which does seem to need some looking into.I could be wrong but this post still sounds like someone asking for a dps boost. SMILEY
Wow reading comprehension FTW. I never ask for more DPS we do DPS fine. I dont even care if another class out-dps's us. I am just pointing out the disparity in range buffs. One thing this thread has brought to my attention is all the ranger hate out there. What do you care if we do good DPS? It helps your raid, it helps your guild or it helps your group. Jesus - get over your class and your jealousy. It is amazing to me. And for the PvPer's go away - we dont care about you. This is PvE I have never heard Tarinax complain that I critted 8k on him and whine about it in the ranger forums. I dont know how to put this more simply - I am simply pointing out the oversight of ranged buffs in the game. Let me take an example, the guardian buff that buffs all offensive skills but ranged?!?! This is an oversight. And there are many more like it. I don't care about DPS.On another note, since you want to make this about DPS, if you have rangers always parsing in the top, then your other classes are slacking. Nuff said about DPS.You can all go back to your ranger hate and whining now.
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Old 09-18-2007, 10:35 AM   #22
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Spangles wrote:
So what you want is some ranged buffs, just like all the melee buffs out there?  If so, then you must be prepared to accept a little nerfage to ranger solo abilities so that the new buffs bring you back up to the top of the DPS tree ~ where you already are.
This had to make me laugh. There are so many misperceptions about the ranger class in this thread. Ranger solo ability. Yeah, only if they are in wide open space with room to run. We solo worse than most classes (except assassins).Hey, if a dev came in here and said, we purposely left ranged off of all the buffs because rangers are already powerful, I would be fine. But the fact is, I doubt they did that. They just forgot. Like they forget when they make quest rewards, when they make buffs, and when they do itemization.
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Old 09-18-2007, 10:39 AM   #23
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I think your totally correct. There is hardly any interaction between ranged attack and buffs/items.

When rangers post the only thing people think is dps. they don't stop and think about game design for a moment at all, just start flaming ahead.

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Old 09-18-2007, 10:39 AM   #24
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Ranja wrote:
This had to make me laugh. There are so many misperceptions about the ranger class in this thread. Ranger solo ability. Yeah, only if they are in wide open space with room to run. We solo worse than most classes (except assassins).Hey, if a dev came in here and said, we purposely left ranged off of all the buffs because rangers are already powerful, I would be fine. But the fact is, I doubt they did that. They just forgot. Like they forget when they make quest rewards, when they make buffs, and when they do itemization.
And do you honestly think if they acceded to this request they would not have to re-evaluate Ranger DPS? If you are realtively happy where you are I would think twice about inviting the devs to meddle much further.
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Old 09-18-2007, 10:44 AM   #25
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Ranja wrote:
I dont know how to put this more simply - I am simply pointing out the oversight of ranged buffs in the game

/agree

I don't think that a RANGED attack should proc a MELEE WEAPON EFFECT. So, I do agree with the recent change that prevents that sort of proc from happening.

But I can understand that Rangers would like something to make up for that, & I agree with them.

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Old 09-18-2007, 10:51 AM   #26
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[email protected] wrote:
Ranja wrote:
I dont know how to put this more simply - I am simply pointing out the oversight of ranged buffs in the game

/agree

I don't think that a RANGED attack should proc a MELEE WEAPON EFFECT. So, I do agree with the recent change that prevents that sort of proc from happening.

A melee weapon effect can mean 2 things.

1 : A proc from a melee weapon

2 : A buff that effects melee weapons.

This has been confused in this threat before, so maybe you might want to expand on this SMILEY

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Old 09-18-2007, 11:05 AM   #27
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firza wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Ranja wrote:
I dont know how to put this more simply - I am simply pointing out the oversight of ranged buffs in the game

/agree

I don't think that a RANGED attack should proc a MELEE WEAPON EFFECT. So, I do agree with the recent change that prevents that sort of proc from happening.

A melee weapon effect can mean 2 things.

1 : A proc from a melee weapon

2 : A buff that effects melee weapons.

This has been confused in this threat before, so maybe you might want to expand on this SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />

I was referring to both cases.

If the proc is inherent to the melee weapon -- adornment, or "built-in" like the Claymore effect or imbuement -- then it shouldn't go off on a ranged attack, because you weren't using the melee weapon.

If a buff only affects melee weapons, then it shouldn't affect ranged attacks, because they're not being buffed by the spell.

I think both of those cases are clear enough. But please correct me if neither of those was EVER the case, & we're talking about something entirely different.

IMHO, the problem is that there are plenty of buffs for melee weapons, & not enough for ranged weapons. Would changing this end up buffing the DPS of a class that already does excellent DPS? Perhaps. Do I care? No.

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Old 09-18-2007, 11:24 AM   #28
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I could not give a rats beefcake about ranger dps myself, just see the problem that ranged does not have enough possible buffs.

An easy solution would be to make all buffs/items that buff melee, buff ranged also. This is allready the case for many buffs (think dps/str/haste buffs).

of course creating a full new buffset is a possibilitie I am willing to discuss also, but I think the first option is the best buck per dev hour solution.

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Old 09-18-2007, 11:25 AM   #29
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To start off: althogh our DPS is an issue, it has nothing to do with this.Yeah, itemization for rangers is awful. The devs just seem to be ignoring the fact that we are in fact NOT a melee class.Armor:- + ranged is very rare. For example our EoF gear set does not give any ranged.- Stats are screwed up. There is very, very little INT in our gear. We get huge amounts of virtually obsolete stats (STA, AGI) and little if any INT. For example our EoF Ranger gear set does not give a single point of INT. - + ranged crit is almost impossible to findMelee:- For all quest rewards we get the "scout" item, which is always a melee weapon. So no reward for any of the long questlines (SoD, Claymore, etc).- Virtually all procs are for melee.- All heroic opportunities from meleeBows & arrows:- We are very, very reliant on our bows for damage. Our auto attacks account for something like 40% of our damage.- The availability of bows is horrible. Rangers who aren't in raiding guilds will have to use the Ghostly Bow of Bylze (a lvl 59 treasured bow) at lvl 70. Also the sheer number of bows is tiny in comparison to other weapons.- Bow and arrow mechanics are absolutely abysmal to say the least. If by some miracle you get a T7 fabled bow, it will be performing badly unless you have t8 ammo:
  • T7 arrows (adamantine arrows) are actually level 57.
  • You will only get 100% damage out of your autoattack if the bow is also level 57.
  • So even if you get a level 70 Fabled longbow, for example the Torn Ligament Long bow, you will only be doing 77% of it's potential damage. This means that lower level bows, such as Bylze will easily outparse it.
  • Therefore you pretty much have to have one of the two extremely rare T8 ammo-summoning bows from DT aswell.
  • It also means that the DR on bows is totally and absolutely useless for determining the strength of a bow.
  • Rangers who don't have the time or guild to do hardcore raiding will therefore be stuck with crap bows for life.
  • And of course we have to pay 3-6 silver per attack, depending on the market
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Old 09-18-2007, 11:26 AM   #30
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firza wrote:

An easy solution would be to make all buffs/items that buff melee, buff ranged also. This is allready the case for many buffs (think dps/str/haste buffs).

of course creating a full new buffset is a possibilitie I am willing to discuss also, but I think the first option is the best buck per dev hour solution.

Yea, you're probably right.

& thanx to Deterrent, for the explanation on itemization.

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