EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

 

Go Back   EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire > EverQuest II > General EverQuest II Discussion > General Gameplay Discussion
Members List Search Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-05-2007, 02:50 PM   #1
Lionidas

Lord
Lionidas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 77
Default

No other playstyle brings about so many mixed feelings in EQ2 than raiding.On one hand you have "Raiders" or even "Hardcore Raiders". Depending on who you are the definitions of this type of player can range fromRaiderraid-er-noun
  1. A player that partakes in the killing pr attempts of killing epic mobs.
  2. A player that plays everyday at every hour and is considered an elitist.
  3. A player that takes pride in his character and plays it to the maximum abilities.
Definition 1 is the only one that holds true for all Raiders. The other two could apply to anyone, regardless of playstyle, and depending on who is giving the definition.So what really separates the Raider from the Casual? What is it that makes this playstyle resented more so than any other group? What is the reason that so many are against raiding?
Lionidas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 02:53 PM   #2
BungFoo

Loremaster
BungFoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 220
Default

Really? Do we really need to beat on this dead horse again?EQ2 is a great game because it has content for a really wide range of play styles.Really? Raider vs Casual ? Again? I mean the horse is dead, it's been ground into pulp and rotted away long ago.
BungFoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 02:59 PM   #3
Lionidas

Lord
Lionidas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 77
Default

No, I'm seriously wondering what is stopping anyone from raiding. This is not a casual vs raider or anything of that matter and is not my intent.
Lionidas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 03:04 PM   #4
Strums

Loremaster
Strums's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 214
Default

I will be real honest here...Before I changed classes and servers, I hated raiders...why?  Because I could not do / obtain the things they do / have.  I was always making excuses as to why I didnt want to raid, but resented raiders for their accomplishments...a tad selfish I think.

After I changed servers and classes, I found myself again wanting more on my toon, but feared if I joined a raid guild I wouldnt last long.  In my mind raiders were people who played this game 20 hours a day, had no lifes, and lived in their parrents basements at age 35....man was I wrong...well mostly =P

I joined a raid guild and found out that the guys raiding are the same as the other players in the casual guilds I use to run with.  Only diffrence was most of these guys had goals, where as the casual guys generaly were just about doing what was "fun" reguardless if it benefited their toon or guild.

To be real honest Im not a big fan of raiding...its really boring at times, well most of the time I guess.  But the feeling of accomplishment I get when we beat something really tough, or something others have not or can not beat, outweighs the bordem or most raids for me.

__________________
Strums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 03:12 PM   #5
Bramwe

General
Bramwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 492
Default

IMO it comes down to the fact that raiders generally get to spend more time in game than non raiders for whatever reason instead of working or dealing with RL crap.  Sort of the same reason people get jealous of those who may have a ton of money or great looks.  It is because not everyone can do it and that usually results in people getting upset.  If everyone could do it then there would be no problem/resentment.Edit...and I like the point made below also.
__________________


width="485" height="151"

Bramwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 03:13 PM   #6
Dasein

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,847
Default

The problem is, raiding tends to define the end game, such that all other end game activities (ie, everything you do after you've hit the level cap) are balanced against raiding in terms of loot quality and rewards. The assumption is that raiding carries the greatest risk, and thus must provide the best rewards, while other forms of gameplay are inferior and thus cannot provide any sort of real reward that infringes upon the quality of raid-level gear.Raiding as a whole has come to dominate PvE games - it's not limited to EQ2 by any means - and thus we see a severe lack of creativity in end-game activities. The progression of virtually all PvE games is from solo early to grouping in the mid levels to raiding at the end. Rarely do these games offer any other sorts of playstyles, nor do they offer rewards or meaningful advancement options for those who attempt to pursue alternate playstyles. There are so many possibilities for types of gameplay in MMOs that it seems such a waste of potential to see developers churn out EQ clones one after another.
__________________
Troll Lord Casywdian
Dasein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 03:14 PM   #7
Lionidas

Lord
Lionidas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 77
Default

See that is the kind of honest answer I was looking for. I've been thinking a lot lately about why some people always try and make it a "Casual vs. Raider" argument when really there is no separation between the two in this current day. Raid zones are instanced just like the group zones, meaning there is no call at 3am to kill a mob. It does not take 100+ players to do a zone in EQ2, in fact some zones take just over a full group. So for the players that do group instances, why not try a raid zone?
Lionidas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 03:19 PM   #8
Dead Knight

Loremaster
Dead Knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 467
Default

Because we see [Removed for Content] like clearing Unrest or Labs as a cake walk then the Xego tank gets all offended and starts [Removed for Content] about gear and calling everyone an elitist, lol.
Dead Knight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 03:19 PM   #9
Kenazeer

Loremaster
Kenazeer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,178
Default

I really think "jealousy" plays little part in it. I think the main two things that drive a wedge between raiders and everyone else both derive from the fact that it is a "minority" playstyle.

1) Players want the devs focussed on developing content for their playstyle.

2) Obnoxious players, who also happen to raiders, are more easily "tagged." Meaning random Joe in chat who is obnoxious but casual is "Joe the butthole," and people draw no relation between his playstyle and his behavior. Random John who is a raider in a recognizable guild, and also obnoxious in chat, is "Raider John the butthole." The ability to discern what players style is allows people to make a "connection" (although illogical) between the behavior and the playstyle.

My two coppers for what it is worth.

__________________
Come play EQ2...we have SOEmote, Dungeon Finder, and Dungeon Maker.
Kenazeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 03:21 PM   #10
Lionidas

Lord
Lionidas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 77
Default

[email protected] wrote:
IMO it comes down to the fact that raiders generally get to spend more time in game than non raiders for whatever reason instead of working or dealing with RL crap.  Sort of the same reason people get jealous of those who may have a ton of money or great looks.  It is because not everyone can do it and that usually results in people getting upset.  If everyone could do it then there would be no problem/resentment.Edit...and I like the point made below also.
This is coming from a raider but this is simply not true. Most raids will only be a few hours in duration. Lately I have been leveling a new character on a different server, the amount of time I spend on my raiding toon has been anywhere from 1-4 hours at a time. I think this would be a good measuring stick of the time involved in raiding for anyone.And I am happy to have a discussion with people to try and clear up some of the misconceptions of raiders and raiding.
Lionidas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 03:23 PM   #11
BungFoo

Loremaster
BungFoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 220
Default

My post wasn't really directed at you so much as it was directed at the inevitable posts that are yet to come . . . . But, since the thread is going well so far, I'll add my experience. My guild is small, only like 25 unique accounts, it's very difficult for us to get everyone online together to go do raids. I left a larger guild that was doing raids for this guild because I really enjoy playing with the people in it. We do raids whenever we can but it's pretty rare for us and when we are able to do them they are mostly tier 3 and 4 raids. It'll be months more before we can even think about seriously doing end game raids.I used to get gear lust but I realized that if my gear is good enough  to help me accomplish the things that I enjoy doing than  there's no reason to lust after the stuff that I can't get without leaving, or fundamentally changing, my guild.As long as the game developers continue to make awesome fun content for all levels of players I have no problem with them making new raid instances. I think that a lot of people who can't raid get [Removed for Content] because they feel like the developers neglect the non-raiding game.
BungFoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 03:25 PM   #12
Lilj

General
Lilj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 766
Default

Lionidas wrote:
No, I'm seriously wondering what is stopping anyone from raiding. This is not a casual vs raider or anything of that matter and is not my intent.
For me it was time. I was in a nice guild that raided 2-3 times a week, but it was always on week days and never in weekends. We started at 8 pm (20:00) and most often ended past midnight. If you have to get up at 6 or 7 am for your job, it's not that nice to sit and raid past midnight SMILEY<img src=" /> Of course some can, but I wasn't able to do it.I tried to change our schedule, so perhaps we could raid also in weekends or friday, but I didn't succeed. At this point I gave up.If I searched I could probably find another guild with times that were better and I plan to do that when I feel for it.So to sum it up, time and guild can be a factor that prevents some people from raiding.And I'm sure interest also prevents some, raiding is not everyones cup of tea, just like questing isn't or grinding or crafting or housedecorating or or or....
__________________
Lilj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 03:27 PM   #13
Ranja

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,657
Default

Lionidas wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
IMO it comes down to the fact that raiders generally get to spend more time in game than non raiders for whatever reason instead of working or dealing with RL crap.  Sort of the same reason people get jealous of those who may have a ton of money or great looks.  It is because not everyone can do it and that usually results in people getting upset.  If everyone could do it then there would be no problem/resentment.Edit...and I like the point made below also.
This is coming from a raider but this is simply not true. Most raids will only be a few hours in duration. Lately I have been leveling a new character on a different server, the amount of time I spend on my raiding toon has been anywhere from 1-4 hours at a time. I think this would be a good measuring stick of the time involved in raiding for anyone.And I am happy to have a discussion with people to try and clear up some of the misconceptions of raiders and raiding.
Aye, agree with the above. Just because you have tons of time to play, does not mean you raid. My raid guild is very structured. We raid three times a week in 3 hour time blocks. Some weeks I only have time to play once and that is a raid. So that week my playtime was 3 hours for the whole week. That raiding takes a ton of time is a misconception that is really forwarded by the casual guilds that try to raid. For a casual guild that tries to raid ( like my first guild) it can be disastrous. Raid zones take forever because of all the dying, it take forever to organize raid and get people to zone in point. Really what attracted me to my current guild is that it is extremely organized. Raids start and end on time as scheduled. If I had not joined them I would probably not be playing EQ2 now.So really in order to be a successful raid guild you need to be organized but this does not equate to spending endless hours in front of the computer. It actually means you can spend less time in front of the computer: D
__________________
Elbryan, 90 Half-elf Ranger

Thoghmor, 70 Troll Bruiser

Rotir, 90 Dark Elf Swash

Terrano, 82 Dark Elf Dirge

Aymon, 90, Barbarian Shadowknight

The Destroyer of Worlds:

http://s7.gladiatus.com/game/c.php?uid=84341
Ranja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 03:35 PM   #14
Lionidas

Lord
Lionidas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 77
Default

Dasein wrote:
The problem is, raiding tends to define the end game, such that all other end game activities (ie, everything you do after you've hit the level cap) are balanced against raiding in terms of loot quality and rewards. The assumption is that raiding carries the greatest risk, and thus must provide the best rewards, while other forms of gameplay are inferior and thus cannot provide any sort of real reward that infringes upon the quality of raid-level gear.Raiding as a whole has come to dominate PvE games - it's not limited to EQ2 by any means - and thus we see a severe lack of creativity in end-game activities. The progression of virtually all PvE games is from solo early to grouping in the mid levels to raiding at the end. Rarely do these games offer any other sorts of playstyles, nor do they offer rewards or meaningful advancement options for those who attempt to pursue alternate playstyles. There are so many possibilities for types of gameplay in MMOs that it seems such a waste of potential to see developers churn out EQ clones one after another.
The progression of items is always a hot topic among everyone. The reason behind itemization being balanced against raid loot is due to raid mobs in general hit harder and have more health. If a solo mob would hit you for 12k and a raid mob would hit you for 1k this would not hold water or if you could kill a raid mob in 2 swings of your sword.I imagine that most of the reasoning behind loot is that it can trivialize lesser encounters. If on the other hand, loot was designed specifically around the tier of the mob there would be less of an issue. For example an Axe that drops from a raid would have a proc that only worked against epics. This would ensure that the owner would not be able to one shot the boss of Unrest but still hold its value in a raid setting.As far as raiding involving the greatest risk, I would define it more as the greatest challenge. When you increase the number of people involved in a project it also increases the amount of variables that could go wrong. You need to rely on 23 other people to do a distinct action at a certain time or everything falls apart. The complexity of what a raid has to offer or should offer is much greater than a single person killing a single non-heroic mob.
Lionidas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 03:38 PM   #15
Bramwe

General
Bramwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 492
Default

Ranja wrote:
Lionidas wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
IMO it comes down to the fact that raiders generally get to spend more time in game than non raiders for whatever reason instead of working or dealing with RL crap.  Sort of the same reason people get jealous of those who may have a ton of money or great looks.  It is because not everyone can do it and that usually results in people getting upset.  If everyone could do it then there would be no problem/resentment.Edit...and I like the point made below also.
This is coming from a raider but this is simply not true. Most raids will only be a few hours in duration. Lately I have been leveling a new character on a different server, the amount of time I spend on my raiding toon has been anywhere from 1-4 hours at a time. I think this would be a good measuring stick of the time involved in raiding for anyone.And I am happy to have a discussion with people to try and clear up some of the misconceptions of raiders and raiding.
Aye, agree with the above. Just because you have tons of time to play, does not mean you raid. My raid guild is very structured. We raid three times a week in 3 hour time blocks. Some weeks I only have time to play once and that is a raid. So that week my playtime was 3 hours for the whole week. That raiding takes a ton of time is a misconception that is really forwarded by the casual guilds that try to raid. For a casual guild that tries to raid ( like my first guild) it can be disastrous. Raid zones take forever because of all the dying, it take forever to organize raid and get people to zone in point. Really what attracted me to my current guild is that it is extremely organized. Raids start and end on time as scheduled. If I had not joined them I would probably not be playing EQ2 now.So really in order to be a successful raid guild you need to be organized but this does not equate to spending endless hours in front of the computer. It actually means you can spend less time in front of the computer: D
Well I was just basing it on my experience...I am able to raid about 2 times per week if I want.  The only feeling I ever have when I look at players who are in hardcore raiding guilds is..."I wish I had the time to do that".  There are a couple guilds on my server who's players are decked out in fabled EoF set gear.  That is one item per person per raid for each slot.  In my mind that equals out to a lot of raid time.  More than 1-4 hours here and there of raiding.  No one gets decked out in Fabled EoF gear raiding 3 hours per week.  Maybe that's all the time needed now or for a new player to a guild who has put in the time.  It took time to learn the zones and get 15+ slots worth of gear filled for 24 people.  Anyone who has the gear that makes me think this is in a guild that raids starting at 6-7pm every night with like 80%+ required attendance.
__________________


width="485" height="151"

Bramwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 03:45 PM   #16
Lionidas

Lord
Lionidas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 77
Default

[email protected] wrote:
My post wasn't really directed at you so much as it was directed at the inevitable posts that are yet to come . . . . But, since the thread is going well so far, I'll add my experience. My guild is small, only like 25 unique accounts, it's very difficult for us to get everyone online together to go do raids. I left a larger guild that was doing raids for this guild because I really enjoy playing with the people in it. We do raids whenever we can but it's pretty rare for us and when we are able to do them they are mostly tier 3 and 4 raids. It'll be months more before we can even think about seriously doing end game raids.I used to get gear lust but I realized that if my gear is good enough  to help me accomplish the things that I enjoy doing than  there's no reason to lust after the stuff that I can't get without leaving, or fundamentally changing, my guild.As long as the game developers continue to make awesome fun content for all levels of players I have no problem with them making new raid instances. I think that a lot of people who can't raid get [Removed for Content] because they feel like the developers neglect the non-raiding game.
No problem, I was hoping to shed some insight into the subject on both ends.Sincerely, if you have a regular group that you can do the EoF group instances you can pick up a few other people and try Labs or even Courts. You do not need specific classes or any stratagy, you just need the basics like tank, heals, power regen and dps.And please trust me when I say you do not need fabled gear to give it a try! Up until a few weeks ago I was still wearing Strongbear Steelskin Shoulders and Awakened Scalelord Sabatons. I am the main tank of a guild that was killing most named in EoF zones.
Lionidas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 03:55 PM   #17
BungFoo

Loremaster
BungFoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 220
Default

We only have like 3 70s and only two or three more that are above 50 who play regularly. We play really well together though and are basically fearless so I'm sure we'll be giving that stuff a go pretty soon.
BungFoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 03:56 PM   #18
Aurumn
Server: Unrest
Guild: Executioners
Rank: Teen of chaos (2 weeks + 6,857 astatus)

Loremaster
Aurumn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 1,328
Default

Here's my 2cp from a (very) casual player.

I play mostly solo, although I've been getting to the point where I might be able to group a little more. I play in the evenings after work between roughly 8pm and 11pm EST. Some days I'm on for an hour, sometimes 3 hours. Usually weeknights are spent harvesting or crafting. On the weekends I pop in and out throughout the day, usually questing or running about to help guildies when the opportunity arises. Also, I play multiple characters. I mainly concentrate on 3 of them, but I switch things up depending on my mood.

Here are the main things that I feel currently block me from raiding:

  1. I have ZERO interest in racing to 70. I've never played ANY games this way. I love to explore, quest and learn my class. Crafting to tweak my gear and earn coin is another hobby of mine.
  2. I refuse to schedule playtime like it's my job. I pop in when I want to, for as long as I feel like playing, on the days I want to play. Some days I play other games. Sometimes I'd rather spend time with my husband/pets or I have other RL responsibilities to deal with. I've spontaneouly joined up on a few small ventures like helping to camp stuff for HQ's, but nothing high level (see #1... my "main" is level 35).
  3. I am not driven to get the endgame loot or top the leaderboards. I play for my own enjoyment and stress relief. I have no interest in outparsing anyone or seeing how I stack up to other toons/players. I may get to a point where I feel like jumping into the fray, but right now... not so much.

I don't group much because I have to be flexible as to when I can log in or out. I don't want to take the trouble to gather a group (or join one) and then have to log after 20 minutes. That and it seems most folks are looking to XP grind and I specifically don't want to out level my quests so I end up opting out so I don't hold them back.

My playstyle isn't currently suited to raiding so I don't do it. I know folks say raiding is nothing like the hideously long camps back in EQ1, but frankly over an hour is too long for me unless it's a weekend and I have absolutely nothing else going on at home.

That being said, I have nothing against raiders or anyone whose playstyle differs from mine so long as they don't try to stamp out all other playstyles in their bid to improve their own. Asserting that Endgame is more important than "low level" content or vice versa is to a degree selfish IMHO. A combination of the two is what builds and retains the player base.

Aurumn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 03:58 PM   #19
Xas

General
Xas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 37
Default

Mainly talking about the hardcore version here. Usually, they whine the most, and want the game geared towards them, then look down at everyone else. Not to mention if you listen in on TS, some of them are the most foul mouthed children you ever had to listen to, as in big babies. I tried a hardcore raiding guild that started out in VG, and I didn't last a week. I never even grouped with them, but quit simply from what I had to listen to on TS and in /gu.
Xas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 04:01 PM   #20
Vith
Server: Oasis
Guild: Bat Country
Rank: Chairman Meow

Loremaster
Vith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 58
Default

Hate is too strong a word for such a small issue. As a hardcore casual SMILEY I do dislike the raiding playstyle for a few reasons.
1. Exclusive to players. "SKs are undesirable." "You don't bring enough to the raid." I feel multiplayer games should be inclusive and allow players of all types to work together without a lot of restrictions. I come from UO originally, where there were no 'groups', just lots of 'solo' players working together to do things, and even new players/characters could contribute to the 'not-group'.
2. Exclusive content. Raiders can always go solo something. Soloers can't generally raid. I guess you can make the case for pickup raids, but if a solo player isn't geared and specced for raiding, it's not going to go well. And in cases like mine, one reason I don't raid is simply time commitments. It's unfair to a raid if I'm tanking for them and suddenly get an idea for a song and go afk for a couple hours to record it.
Nowhere does jealousy or any other factor I commonly hear attributed to casual players enter into the equation. I like that EQ2 supports multiple playstyles, it's a great thing and the dev team are the best in the business in my opinion. They've really turned what was a casual-unfriendly game into the best mmo in the marketplace.
My main wishes are that raiders would be more open to sub-optimal groups and that content would be loosened up some. There is already a degree of this when you can pick solo/heroic/epic instances on zone-in, more of the same would benefit the game greatly by allowing players of all stripes to experience the breadth of content EQ2 offers.
Vith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 04:02 PM   #21
Lionidas

Lord
Lionidas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 77
Default

[email protected] wrote:
Ranja wrote:
Lionidas wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
IMO it comes down to the fact that raiders generally get to spend more time in game than non raiders for whatever reason instead of working or dealing with RL crap.  Sort of the same reason people get jealous of those who may have a ton of money or great looks.  It is because not everyone can do it and that usually results in people getting upset.  If everyone could do it then there would be no problem/resentment.Edit...and I like the point made below also.
This is coming from a raider but this is simply not true. Most raids will only be a few hours in duration. Lately I have been leveling a new character on a different server, the amount of time I spend on my raiding toon has been anywhere from 1-4 hours at a time. I think this would be a good measuring stick of the time involved in raiding for anyone.And I am happy to have a discussion with people to try and clear up some of the misconceptions of raiders and raiding.
Aye, agree with the above. Just because you have tons of time to play, does not mean you raid. My raid guild is very structured. We raid three times a week in 3 hour time blocks. Some weeks I only have time to play once and that is a raid. So that week my playtime was 3 hours for the whole week. That raiding takes a ton of time is a misconception that is really forwarded by the casual guilds that try to raid. For a casual guild that tries to raid ( like my first guild) it can be disastrous. Raid zones take forever because of all the dying, it take forever to organize raid and get people to zone in point. Really what attracted me to my current guild is that it is extremely organized. Raids start and end on time as scheduled. If I had not joined them I would probably not be playing EQ2 now.So really in order to be a successful raid guild you need to be organized but this does not equate to spending endless hours in front of the computer. It actually means you can spend less time in front of the computer: D
Well I was just basing it on my experience...I am able to raid about 2 times per week if I want.  The only feeling I ever have when I look at players who are in hardcore raiding guilds is..."I wish I had the time to do that".  There are a couple guilds on my server who's players are decked out in fabled EoF set gear.  That is one item per person per raid for each slot.  In my mind that equals out to a lot of raid time.  More than 1-4 hours here and there of raiding.  No one gets decked out in Fabled EoF gear raiding 3 hours per week.  Maybe that's all the time needed now or for a new player to a guild who has put in the time.  It took time to learn the zones and get 15+ slots worth of gear filled for 24 people.  Anyone who has the gear that makes me think this is in a guild that raids starting at 6-7pm every night with like 80%+ required attendance.
Of course there are some guilds that require more than others. In our guild we require 3 raids per week. Even with that requirement we have many members that have joined and within their first few raids acquired items because the other members already had them. This was made even easier now with the implementation of "Smart Loot" in the EoF zones. In fact so easy that if the situation was right a person could be fully geared in as little as 2 raids.Another thing that stands out is again the perception of loot and the tag that goes along with it. True "Hardcore" raiders do not bother with what an item is labeled and use the best item regardless of where it came from. I would like to point out one of the most influential players from the raiding community and the leader of what is considered one of the top raiding guilds in the game Calagin. Notice that he wearing items that many people may have sold to a merchant and discarded as trash. The Mystical Orb of the Invoker is a collection quest, the Bone-clasped Girdle is an HQ and X'haviz's Gown of Glory comes from a single group instance. These are some of the best items in the game and are obtainable by anyone.
Lionidas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 04:03 PM   #22
KBern

Loremaster
KBern's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,372
Default

[email protected] wrote:

Here are the main things that I feel currently block me from raiding:

  1. I have ZERO interest in racing to 70. I've never played ANY games this way. I love to explore, quest and learn my class. Crafting to tweak my gear and earn coin is another hobby of mine.
  2. I refuse to schedule playtime like it's my job. I pop in when I want to, for as long as I feel like playing, on the days I want to play. Some days I play other games. Sometimes I'd rather spend time with my husband/pets or I have other RL responsibilities to deal with. I've spontaneouly joined up on a few small ventures like helping to camp stuff for HQ's, but nothing high level (see #1... my "main" is level 35).
  3. I am not driven to get the endgame loot or top the leaderboards. I play for my own enjoyment and stress relief. I have no interest in outparsing anyone or seeing how I stack up to other toons/players. I may get to a point where I feel like jumping into the fray, but right now... not so much.

I can see your point with 1 and 3.  You do have to be max level with maxed AA's to really be a successful raid member.  You also need to be driven to see the endgame and equip your character with the best loots, not strictly wanting to see your name on the leaderboards.

Point 2 is the part that I think confuses me the most.  When it comes to a video game, people always toss out the "it is not a job thing", very true.

But weekly poker nights, softball games, trips to the gym, television shows (fit more before Tivo and DVR's), etc. all have to be scheduled in most cases.  Same for a raid, if you want to raid with 24 other people, a time needs to be set....it has nothing to do with treating it like a job.

__________________
KBern is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 04:15 PM   #23
Lionidas

Lord
Lionidas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 77
Default

Xasdf wrote:
Mainly talking about the hardcore version here. Usually, they whine the most, and want the game geared towards them, then look down at everyone else. Not to mention if you listen in on TS, some of them are the most foul mouthed children you ever had to listen to, as in big babies. I tried a hardcore raiding guild that started out in VG, and I didn't last a week. I never even grouped with them, but quit simply from what I had to listen to on TS and in /gu.
I would have to say that the same could apply to any group really. In every aspect of the game you see people that are outspoken for their point of view. And I would have to say that I do not think a large majority of the raiding community wants the game tailored to raiding. Most of us do quests, craft and enjoy the lore aspect of the game as much as anyone else. I think it may be a misinterpretation of raiders wanting the raid content to be more complex and require more thought while at the same time having to go through specific steps to reach the final goal. We all would be quite upset if everything we could do required 24 people.And with the TS thing, that again would fall on the small percentage of raiders. My guild is mostly all adults with jobs and families. We have both males and females on our Vent, including my wife. In Vent we keep our swearing to a minimum and during raids we focus on the task at hand. I would imagine that most raid guilds are the same.
Lionidas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 04:28 PM   #24
Lionidas

Lord
Lionidas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 77
Default

[email protected] wrote:
[email protected] wrote:

Here are the main things that I feel currently block me from raiding:

  1. I have ZERO interest in racing to 70. I've never played ANY games this way. I love to explore, quest and learn my class. Crafting to tweak my gear and earn coin is another hobby of mine.
  2. I refuse to schedule playtime like it's my job. I pop in when I want to, for as long as I feel like playing, on the days I want to play. Some days I play other games. Sometimes I'd rather spend time with my husband/pets or I have other RL responsibilities to deal with. I've spontaneouly joined up on a few small ventures like helping to camp stuff for HQ's, but nothing high level (see #1... my "main" is level 35).
  3. I am not driven to get the endgame loot or top the leaderboards. I play for my own enjoyment and stress relief. I have no interest in outparsing anyone or seeing how I stack up to other toons/players. I may get to a point where I feel like jumping into the fray, but right now... not so much.

I can see your point with 1 and 3.  You do have to be max level with maxed AA's to really be a successful raid member.  You also need to be driven to see the endgame and equip your character with the best loots, not strictly wanting to see your name on the leaderboards.

Point 2 is the part that I think confuses me the most.  When it comes to a video game, people always toss out the "it is not a job thing", very true.

But weekly poker nights, softball games, trips to the gym, television shows (fit more before Tivo and DVR's), etc. all have to be scheduled in most cases.  Same for a raid, if you want to raid with 24 other people, a time needs to be set....it has nothing to do with treating it like a job.

Aurumn and Saurakk, great points. I would like to embelish a little too. 1. As I pointed out in a prior post, loot for the most part is secondary. You do not need uber loot to raid at all. I would take a person in legendary gear that knows his toon inside and out and that works well with others over a fully fabled player that did the opposite. Anyone that can play their class well will do well on raids once they get the hang of it.2. Saurakk awesome comparison on point 2. Raiding and even playing EQ2 is a form of entertainment. And just like all the other forms sometimes you need to plan in advance what you would like to do. To me raiding is the closest to playing sports I have experienced without involving sports. It requires a team of people working in coordination with each other in order to win against a team that is determined to stop them. The feeling you get when you do what was at one time considered impossible and being able to share that with a large amount of friends is an awesome feeling.
Lionidas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 04:37 PM   #25
Ama

General
Ama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,833
Default

Lionidas wrote:
No, I'm seriously wondering what is stopping anyone from raiding. This is not a casual vs raider or anything of that matter and is not my intent.

Some raids out there take a long time if your in an in-experienced group or your doing a raid zone for the first time.  First time I ever did labs it took the raid 7hrs to complete it.  Now with the raid i'm in it takes only 3hrs and even then 3hrs is alot of time to some people.

However the problem is content is being diluted imho and it may reach the point where you have 2 ends instead of 3.  You will have the solo activists preaching their crap, banging their books, etc... demanding that more than 50% of the content of the game be soloable.  Already in EoF alot of content is soloable including some quests that proclaim themselves to be "Heroic". 

After that you have the hard core people that believe they deserve most of the attention.  They have the best gear, take on the hardest mobs, and they need to constantly be in the spotlight.  Worst part is these people demand that raid encounters be as hard as they can. 

Hopefully we will keep everything in perspective and raiding will be 25% of the game, along with soloing and 50% of the game will be a mixed bag of solo/group style quests with some x2 epic encounters. 

__________________
Ama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 04:55 PM   #26
Lionidas

Lord
Lionidas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 77
Default

Amana wrote:
Lionidas wrote:
No, I'm seriously wondering what is stopping anyone from raiding. This is not a casual vs raider or anything of that matter and is not my intent.

Some raids out there take a long time if your in an in-experienced group or your doing a raid zone for the first time.  First time I ever did labs it took the raid 7hrs to complete it.  Now with the raid i'm in it takes only 3hrs and even then 3hrs is alot of time to some people.

However the problem is content is being diluted imho and it may reach the point where you have 2 ends instead of 3.  You will have the solo activists preaching their crap, banging their books, etc... demanding that more than 50% of the content of the game be soloable.  Already in EoF alot of content is soloable including some quests that proclaim themselves to be "Heroic". 

After that you have the hard core people that believe they deserve most of the attention.  They have the best gear, take on the hardest mobs, and they need to constantly be in the spotlight.  Worst part is these people demand that raid encounters be as hard as they can. 

Hopefully we will keep everything in perspective and raiding will be 25% of the game, along with soloing and 50% of the game will be a mixed bag of solo/group style quests with some x2 epic encounters. 

Your right some raids take much longer than others and the first time through takes longer than it would once you know the zone. But this applies to any zone really. Unrest is a great example. When it first came out it took a long time for groups to navigate through. Now that same group can clear the zone in 1/3 the time. I really think that its more of everyone would like the things they enjoy the most to be looked at and get some attention. For them "wanting encounters to be has hard as they can", I think this might be a little off. There is a difference between hard and challenging. Hardcore raiders want an encounter that makes them think, makes everyone in the raid involved with an important task and that pushes them to the limit. If an encounter is just hard with no purpose behind it or no thought involved, raiders are disappointed. The same would hold true if every quest just required you to kill 10 of this type of mob. They would get pretty dull and I would think that most people would rather have a challenge from time to time.
Lionidas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 05:19 PM   #27
Daghammerskold

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 176
Default

DEMANDS OF RAIDINGI am in a rather casual raiding guild and I think the best analogy is to compare it to a team on an intramural softball league. We all knows that the game is not the most important thing in our lives but we can agree to spend a certain amount of time 2 or 3 nights a week playing. It is not really any more of a commitment than a softball team would ask of you.GEARWe are starting to be successful raiding EoF content and the gear that drops there is certainly better. But during these successful raids, where I often as not top the zone-wide parse, I keep most of my KoS fabled armor in my bags and wear EoF legendary for the +crit. You should have better than Mastercrafted gear for raiding but you can get the gear you need with single-groups.TIME ZONEI work at 8am and I like to get 8 hours of sleep. I can only raid because I found a guild whose schedual fits those constraints. If you need to be asleep by midnight EST and you guild starts raids at 8 PST then it is clearly not the right fit for you. This game is global, you might need to try several guilds or maybe change servers but if you find the right fit it does not feel like raiding is making any heavy demands on your time, no more than a softball team really.
Daghammerskold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 05:20 PM   #28
Illmarr

Loremaster
Illmarr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,448
Default

Lionidas wrote:
No other playstyle brings about so many mixed feelings in EQ2 than raiding.On one hand you have "Raiders" or even "Hardcore Raiders". Depending on who you are the definitions of this type of player can range fromRaiderraid-er-noun
  1. A player that partakes in the killing pr attempts of killing epic mobs.
  2. A player that plays everyday at every hour and is considered an elitist.
  3. A player that takes pride in his character and plays it to the maximum abilities.
Definition 1 is the only one that holds true for all Raiders. The other two could apply to anyone, regardless of playstyle, and depending on who is giving the definition.So what really separates the Raider from the Casual? What is it that makes this playstyle resented more so than any other group? What is the reason that so many are against raiding?

Desire and opportunity are what seperates "Raiders" and "Casuals" Those without the desire to raid usually do not hold any hate toward Raiders. Those without opportunity may resent their lack of such, and that could turn to hate against those that do.

Someone already made the point about the jerk preception. There are plenty of jerks that don't raid. There are plenty of jerks that do. There are several ginormous jerks that do raid and are very openly antagonistic and harsh to those that do not, making statements such as "The only reason to play is to level to 70 to raid" or "Devs, stop wasting time making new 1-20 content for the new expansion, all us Raiders have been capped and bored for too long, we're all going to quit." It's this very small minority within the Raiding community that creates such hate from the "casual" players.

I've been on both sides of the fence. I was my Guild's MT in EQ1 when EQ2 came out. We were doing current raid content when that happened, but EQ2 and WoW took half our force. I no longer have the desire to make the commitment to be in a dedicated raiding guild. There is nothing wrong with the need to make a commitment. As said before, it's no different from commiting to a Park and Rec League or a Bridge Club or the PTA. But I love to hear about server firsts, and when a Guild beats an encounter for it's first time.

I can't think of any reason to actually be actively against Raiding. Don't partake in it if it's not your style, but why begrudge people their style. People that do this are no better than the stereotypical "Uber Raider"

Pot meet Kettle

Illmarr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 05:22 PM   #29
Aurumn
Server: Unrest
Guild: Executioners
Rank: Teen of chaos (2 weeks + 6,857 astatus)

Loremaster
Aurumn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 1,328
Default

[email protected] wrote:
[email protected] wrote:

I refuse to schedule playtime like it's my job. I pop in when I want to, for as long as I feel like playing, on the days I want to play. Some days I play other games. Sometimes I'd rather spend time with my husband/pets or I have other RL responsibilities to deal with. I've spontaneouly joined up on a few small ventures like helping to camp stuff for HQ's, but nothing high level (see #1... my "main" is level 35).

Point 2 is the part that I think confuses me the most.  When it comes to a video game, people always toss out the "it is not a job thing", very true.

But weekly poker nights, softball games, trips to the gym, television shows (fit more before Tivo and DVR's), etc. all have to be scheduled in most cases.  Same for a raid, if you want to raid with 24 other people, a time needs to be set....it has nothing to do with treating it like a job.

I perhaps have a unique situation. I work an average of 50 hours/week. My evening hours are pretty random and include weekends, but they're scheduled 2 weeks in advance. The problem is that they are subject to change at any time. Assuming I commit to a 3 hour block of gaming it could only be every other weekend, subject to change with perhaps only a day or two of notice.  Aside from that my husband is a student and working so when he has free time I will drop everything to do what he wants to do, schedule or not. Essentially work, family and chores take precedence over anything of a social or recreational nature. This means I have very limited time and I take it as I can.

I've tried structured social events and while it's nice to know there's always something to do I found adhering to structured events and the stress of keeping to that schedule in addition to other (IMO) higher priorities to be the exact opposite of relaxing. I like the option to choose between socializing and say taking a nap on the fly without feeling that I'm letting someone down if I choose one or the other. When life calms down more I may choose differently, but for now... my sanity can't take it. SMILEY 

Aurumn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 05:32 PM   #30
Lasai

Loremaster
Lasai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: my own basement
Posts: 1,295
Default

In any situation where there are two opposite "poles" there will be extremes to both views, and a wide middle ground.

The contempt runs both ways, and so do the comments.  Things like "solo activists preaching their crap" just posted by Amana being a perfect example, thanks Amana.

Both playstyles are valid.  What is not valid is lumping either groups motivations/personas into your own preconceptions.

I solo.  That does not make me a lazy, whining nub who wants fabled gear on login, or any of the other mischaracterizations. It does not mean I am remotely jealous of any raider. It does not mean I belong to a "sucky noob guild" Not wanting to join raids for content does not make me an antisocial pariah who should be playing single player games either.

So do glittering generalizations on who "works" harder, who has entitlement, who is skilled at the game, whose opinions count.  Raiding is a choice of playstyle requiring 24 people and commitment to that playstyle.  That is why they get the Raid drops, not because they are smarter, better, more skilled, less lazy or any of the common crap spewed about.

Soloing is a choice of playstyle also, and while Soloers don't need (and I don't want) Raid level drops to successfully do so, it is nice we have some content available to us. 

In my opinion, the problem gets worse when the devs attempt to mollify both sides.  Trivializing named and enhancing solo drops upsets the group/raid faction.  Twinking CAs, AAs and professions to "bring more to a Raid" upsets me when it screws with my game style and removes a solo option.  Again, it runs both ways.

Both extremes have thier haters.  I am comfortable in the middle ground, thankful that we have options in this game to pursue our own playstyle.

__________________
Never try to teach a pig to whistle. It only frustrates you and annoys the pig.

Lasai is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:48 PM.

vBulletin skin by: CompleteGFX.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All threads and posts originally from the EQ2 and Station forums operated by Sony Online Entertainment. Their use is by express written permission.