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Old 01-10-2007, 12:41 AM   #121
Stormhawk

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While I appreciate the comments from Rothgar, this isn't the first time we've gotten a dev response on the arrow issue.  I fear we will get left out in the cold again if we let the issue slow at all again, like last time.  More importantly I fear they will implement a solution that doesn't solve the problem and will result in us being forced to purchase arrows on a market that is completely unpredictable.
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Old 01-10-2007, 01:32 AM   #122
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What is amazing to me is that there is a dev who plays a ranger 4 nights a week in raids and nothing else is getting fixed.... except for the stealth change to Surveillance which I still haven't seen a dev post on.
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Old 01-10-2007, 02:40 AM   #123
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Zendi wrote:
What is amazing to me is that there is a dev who plays a ranger 4 nights a week in raids and nothing else is getting fixed.... except for the stealth change to Surveillance which I still haven't seen a dev post on.



Hmmmm Rothgar1: Date Registered11-28-200609:24 AM

hmmmmm... maybe he's new and people should cut him some slack? :smileywink:

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Old 01-10-2007, 04:01 AM   #124
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Starness wrote:


Zendi wrote:
What is amazing to me is that there is a dev who plays a ranger 4 nights a week in raids and nothing else is getting fixed.... except for the stealth change to Surveillance which I still haven't seen a dev post on.



Hmmmm Rothgar1: Date Registered11-28-200609:24 AM

hmmmmm... maybe he's new and people should cut him some slack? :smileywink:




I dunno, atleast someone's replying to the issues at hand.  It's a darn shame that a response is what is valued these days. 
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Old 01-10-2007, 04:23 AM   #125
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Starness wrote:

Zendi wrote:
What is amazing to me is that there is a dev who plays a ranger 4 nights a week in raids and nothing else is getting fixed.... except for the stealth change to Surveillance which I still haven't seen a dev post on.

Hmmmm Rothgar1: Date Registered11-28-200609:24 AM

hmmmmm... maybe he's new and people should cut him some slack? :smileywink:


I have no doubt that he legitmately wants to fix the issue but when it comes down to it, it isn't his call.  Responses from devs are great but until you see someone like Scott respond it is basically still up in the air as to when or if it will be changed.
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Old 01-10-2007, 05:15 AM   #126
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Starness wrote:


Zendi wrote:
What is amazing to me is that there is a dev who plays a ranger 4 nights a week in raids and nothing else is getting fixed.... except for the stealth change to Surveillance which I still haven't seen a dev post on.



Hmmmm Rothgar1: Date Registered11-28-200609:24 AM

hmmmmm... maybe he's new and people should cut him some slack? :smileywink:



I wasn't slamming him so much as their system.   However, some things lately have restored my faith a bit and I will hope for the best.

Message Edited by Zendi on 01-09-2007 07:23 PM

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Old 01-10-2007, 06:23 AM   #127
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I understand the cost issues and sympathise. It is stated that other classes dont have to pay to increase their DPS, BUT Scout poison users certainly do and have to keep a fair variety of them on hand for the various situations they find themselves in.
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Old 01-10-2007, 07:59 AM   #128
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LOL your missing 2 extremely important points in this discussion.. first off we do not need arrows to increase dps, we need arrows to function period.Secondly WE ARE SCOUTS, we also use poisons. And we are not complaining about that now are we?
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Old 01-10-2007, 11:42 AM   #129
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The bowyer's arrow costs killed my ranger and then mutilated my corpse SMILEY Need more arrows! eek  Glad to see a Dev share in our pain though LOL
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Old 01-10-2007, 01:16 PM   #130
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Zholain wrote:
As an example, we had a guild group go to SoS last night to help some folks catch up on Claymore quest line.  At level 70, spending a lot of time in SoS is akin to pulling one's own teeth one at a time with a pair of rusty pliers.  Therefore, we just blast throuth it as fast as possible.  I was already at what I consider 'low' on arrows, as I only had about one and a half t7 rare quivers' worth.  Even using Master I Makeshift Arrows every time it was up, by the time we quit, I had 4 stacks of arrows left.  There's no way I'll be able to get through the week without buying arrows now.

How about something like "Fill Quiver"

Fill Quiver
Summons one quiver of arrows.
  • If quiver equipped in ammo slot.
    • If no quiver equipped in ammo slot, summons one stack of arrows into the ammo slot.
  • Will not summon arrows outside of quiver.


Now if they really wanted to get creative, how about having the quality of the CA, i.e. Adept I, Adept III, Master I, etc. effect the level of the arrow.  For instance, App I summon level 60 arrows for the t7 version, level 63 arrows for the App III, level 65 for the App IV, level 66 for the Adept I, level 67 for the Adept III, level 69 for the Master I, and level 70 (yes, t8 arrows) for the Master II.

That, in my opinion, would add something to the game.  Put it on some arbitrary timer.  Since it wouldn't put any arrows into other bags, the timer becomes almost irrelevant.

Minimal impact on woodworkers, but if they really wanted to 'fix' wookworkers, give them back useful arrows to craft.  Magic damage arrows, cold, divine, etc.

Not a perfect solution, I know, but I'm sure my fellow rangers can help out with this if they like the idea.

Message Edited by Zholain on 01-09-2007 11:21 AM



I like this idea, most intelligent thing I have ever seen someone come up with no this board, but then again the question wont be if this is overkill or not the question the devs will bring up is will this finally balance out the ranger class or will this just be another EQ?

Honestly none of us can come up with a valid response, maybe not fill the whole quiver but summon more arrows period, I like this idea it just needs to be refined, not to a whole quiver but say maybe 5 or so stacks and use the same reuse timer as our regular summon arrows, but definately not sure if i said this or not already, lol, I like the idea, just needs to get refined a little.

As for the dev post it actually made me happy, honestly my faith has been brought back these past few months seeing as the devs actually are looking into our problems but then again you also gotta see the blindside is that there are other class issues to look in, you focus on one class then all others get blown out of proportion, and then it causes the devs more trouble cause then these classes will complain about them not getting any attention. Basically what I'm trying to get at is that even tho a dev did respond and they are looking into it could be 2 months or longer from now before it gets fixed, thanks to the class balancing that has been brought out with EQ2 no one class can be better than the other, so instead of focusing everything nito one class they must take look into all others as well.

 

BTW I thought I'd mention I like this idea, [Removed for Content]

 

EDIT: Also I was wandering if someone can crunch some numbers and see if they cna match this out into a place where its not overkill, id like to see that idea happen, dont use a whole quiver just use a small proportion say, 5 or 6 stacks with the reuse timer of our origional arrow summon skill we get

Message Edited by Gnome mercy on 01-10-2007 12:18 AM

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Old 01-10-2007, 02:22 PM   #131
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Tamesan wrote:
I understand the cost issues and sympathise. It is stated that other classes dont have to pay to increase their DPS, BUT Scout poison users certainly do and have to keep a fair variety of them on hand for the various situations they find themselves in.
I'm sorry, I thought this thread was titled 'Arrows, Bloody hell' not 'Poisons, Bloody Hell' and that the main jist of the discussion centered around said arrows or did somebody do a swicth while I wasn't looking?
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Old 01-10-2007, 08:13 PM   #132
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Personally, I think that all crafted arrows should be legendary - this would fill the gap when we lack sufficient AA's or dont have a DT bow (rangers who have been around on these fourms know what im talking about).. This would give the ranger the ability to keep up with other classes while the cost still being minimal..I would love to see arrows that have effects to other classes as well, like an arrow that has a chance to get extra agro, less agro,  to AE - (but reduced damage), or elemental arrows..I personally think that our AA line should summon t8 arrows as well, currently its pretty useless to put anything on that line, its easier (debatable lol) to just pay the arrows then spend 10 aa's to get one ability.
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Old 01-10-2007, 08:18 PM   #133
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Tamesan wrote:
I understand the cost issues and sympathise. It is stated that other classes dont have to pay to increase their DPS, BUT Scout poison users certainly do and have to keep a fair variety of them on hand for the various situations they find themselves in.


Poison's another sore spot, but it's not the debate here. Arrows don't just increase a ranger's DPS--they ARE the DPS. If you run out of poisons, you can still use all of your CA's. If we run out of arrows, we can't use the vast majority of our CA's. This would be like having to pay 6 silver every time you swing your melee weapon. Don't have 6 silver? Your melee weapon doesn't swing.
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Old 01-10-2007, 11:00 PM   #134
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I really like the idea of having our CA's not consume any arrows - this would be a partially endless quiver but we would still need to buy/reclaim/make arrows for our auto-attack.  I do agree that the CA's would still need to have the ability to proc just as an actual arrow was fired.

Not sure if this is feasable or not but what if our CA's consumed different types of arrows than our auto-attack?  Possibly put T7 arrows at the top of your quiver and have your auto-attack use those and place T1 arrows at the bottom of your quiver and have your CA's pull from those, since your CA's dont care about arrow tier.   It would take a little more effort on the rangers part to manage your quiver but would certanilly make it cheaper to by tin arrows rather than adamantine ones. 

Another option would be to have woodworkers make an "endless arrow" that can be put into the quiver that would take up one slot and your CA's would pull from that slot, but your auto-attack would pull bought/reclaimed/made arrows.  Woodworkers could make different types of these "endless arrows" similir to the differnt types of imbued wands???? 

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Old 01-10-2007, 11:21 PM   #135
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We shouldn't be paying for arrows period. Paying for auto-attack and not for CA's is a poor solution. The simple fact remains that no other class relies on a bought/paid for component to do either auto-attack or CA damage everytime a skill is used in combat.
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Old 01-11-2007, 12:13 AM   #136
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xandez wrote:
yah, its sad that i can make nice DPS with my warden and still able to heal as a single healer in instances SMILEY

and all that w/o paying 1c to do so.

and with 90% treasured gear... 

yah, not played my ranger too much lately because of that... SMILEY

sad, but i've finally became so tired of the constant arrow and poison hoarding, the warden ezymode really did that for me... sniff

And we are fine in DPS department? Rofl, maybe, but we still require GOOD gear (espec bow with T8 arrows) and we still have to use LOADS of arrows and LOADS of poisons to get the fine DPS. That is what i dont understand... every caster has the ability to do their DPS as "ranged" like we. Why do we have to be the ONLY class to pay to do it decently (ok, maybe assassins also and other poison users, but... you get teh point SMILEY)


++Xan



Message Edited by xandez on 01-03-2007 10:37 AM


LoL, a meleeing ranger will out dps a warden especially in treasured gear. Got to love that statement. Maybe you have a fury and just dont know it. Just being funny with that last one as i am 99.9 percent sure you would know if you had a fury. Yep got to like warden easy mode. Spam all heals, repeat and add group heals since that is the only way we have a hope of handling a big spike hit, repeat spam heals and throw in a nuke. Good fight. Wardens should be given bows so that we can have easy mode DPS like rangers. Stay safe from aoe's and hits and do decent damage. I would pay for arrows if they let us use them.
 
KK, getting a little out there with that reply but I did it to emphase to Xan to please not to artifically inflate my primary class in order to get his primary class fixed since that may give the dev's the false opinion that wardens are fine when we have some very valid issues including useless spells, being out dps'ed by other non druid priest when druids are the DPS hybrids, and the useless eof AA's. Cures line were okay but not great but now are worthless since they were nerfed. I had to respect and even let points sit unused until i have some free time since I am not a PVPer and the rest just dont really improve the class at all.
 
Comparing a priest to a priest for DPS is valid. Comparing a ranger to a priest for DPS is invalid since if you ever ran a parser you would know that Fury's are the best DPS priest thanks in part to their usefull EOF aa's and I have yet to parse even half of a rangers DPS in a combination of legendary with some fabled even when not required to heal. 
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Old 01-11-2007, 12:51 AM   #137
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Since the trade skill revamp the only crafting that makes money is some rare armor/weapons, adept 3 for those too "inconvenienced" or making too much money adventuring to harvest their own rares, and now tinkering and trasmuting which will gradually become much less profitable as more people level them until people can make better money adventuring there too. Of course the best adornments have already been nerfed like the common crafting was so that people no longer feel any great need to have them. Every little bit helps and someday I plan on getting some for more then just my sword. Leather wearing, wisdom/power buffing melee DPS healer FTH.

Course if I had to buy arrows I wouldn't want anyone to make a decent profit off of them either since that would raise my cost even if they would increase my dps. Course I do have a woodworker for both invis totems for my warden and now for arrows for my little Ranger. 


Stormhawk wrote:
The only way to truly balance us against the other classes is to make arrows cost nothing.  The only way to do that is to implement Endless Quiver.  Since that will never happen, rangers will never be balanced.  I'd love to see a Dev try to actually justify why we are forced to pay for every attack we make.  An alternative solution in the mean time would be to add T8 summon to the Wurm Destroyer.

Crafting is not the answer.  They don't make money off arrows now nor do they need to in the future.  HOWEVER, add Double Attack totems, DPS mod totems or something of the like, that would be a good cost vs. reward crafted item.



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Old 01-11-2007, 12:58 AM   #138
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Somebody left the door open again!
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Old 01-11-2007, 01:11 AM   #139
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Nuladen wrote:We shouldn't be paying for arrows period. Paying for auto-attack and not for CA's is a poor solution. The simple fact remains that no other class relies on a bought/paid for component to do either auto-attack or CA damage everytime a skill is used in combat.I personally have no problem with paying for arrows I use in auto attack and here is why; it enables the developers to add different and more powerful arrows into such a mechanic.  I still hold out hope for the higher quality or different effect arrows that were promised by Beghn so long ago.  If some of these other solutions were instituted we would never be able to have such an option.  If our current reclaimed line is insufficient to keep up with auto attack demand then the numbers of returned arrows could be increased.Kalara Asuras

Message Edited by Kala Asuras on 01-10-2007 02:15 PM

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Old 01-11-2007, 01:24 AM   #140
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Kala Asuras wrote:
Months and months ago I participated in a long discussion about arrows.  I still feel that the ideal situation would be if CAs could be made to not consume arrows but still proc all effects correctly.  Our consumption goes down to auto attack (yes more than other classes but a solution I could live with) and a huge plus is that it would make it possible for us to get the full benefit of higher quality crafted arrows if they are ever put in (another if).



I coudln't agree with this more.  CA's already ignore the quality of arrows used and on top of that with all the multi shots they use probably about 4x's more arrows than auto attack alone.  That change alone would lower the arrow burden tremendously.  I don't want to do away with arrows entirely because i do like the fact that special arrows can have a nice positive bonus.

As for arrows that are used by autoattack we do have reclaim skills that can generate arrows at roughly half the usage rate (assuming you are going non stop ranged auto attack).  And for those who play hard enough to not even be able to keep up with arrows still, then there is a gather arrow enhancement aa.  I know a lot hate the idea of spending aa points on this, but what if they tweaked the AA so that not only did it summon arrows faster, but higher level arrows as well (ie. +1-2 level per aa spent).  That way your aa will not only get you more than enough arrows, but will also increase your dps a tad.

I agree with what others have said and that is that no broken game mechanic should be fixed with aa's.  If they make endless quiver an aa then it would probably be an end-line skill and then every ranger would have no choice but to go down that line. 

I'd also like to see magical quivers out there that can can generate their own magic arrows like the raid bows do (perhaps not quite as powerful however).

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Old 01-11-2007, 01:46 AM   #141
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Nuladen wrote:
We shouldn't be paying for arrows period. Paying for auto-attack and not for CA's is a poor solution. The simple fact remains that no other class relies on a bought/paid for component to do either auto-attack or CA damage everytime a skill is used in combat.




You're only half correct. Assassin's have ranged CA. They consume arrows as does the AA that they use when they are using these ranged CAs. Swashys and Brigs also have ranged CAs. They also consume ammo (thrown).

A more accurate statement would be that no other classes ability to do their job relies so heavily on a bought/paid for component. Other classes still have to buy ammo and other classes still have to use that bought ammo if they want to 'be all that they can be'.

This issue is that an Assassin without arrows may not eeek out all the DPS he can, but he can still do good DPS. He's hurt by the lack of them, but not incapacitated. A Ranger without arrows is pointless.

I feel the need to correct you because it's statements like these that bring on the ire of non-rangers on this issue.

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Old 01-11-2007, 01:48 AM   #142
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lilmohi wrote:


Kala Asuras wrote:
Months and months ago I participated in a long discussion about arrows.  I still feel that the ideal situation would be if CAs could be made to not consume arrows but still proc all effects correctly.  Our consumption goes down to auto attack (yes more than other classes but a solution I could live with) and a huge plus is that it would make it possible for us to get the full benefit of higher quality crafted arrows if they are ever put in (another if).



I coudln't agree with this more.  CA's already ignore the quality of arrows used and on top of that with all the multi shots they use probably about 4x's more arrows than auto attack alone.  That change alone would lower the arrow burden tremendously.  I don't want to do away with arrows entirely because i do like the fact that special arrows can have a nice positive bonus.

As for arrows that are used by autoattack we do have reclaim skills that can generate arrows at roughly half the usage rate (assuming you are going non stop ranged auto attack).  And for those who play hard enough to not even be able to keep up with arrows still, then there is a gather arrow enhancement aa.  I know a lot hate the idea of spending aa points on this, but what if they tweaked the AA so that not only did it summon arrows faster, but higher level arrows as well (ie. +1-2 level per aa spent).  That way your aa will not only get you more than enough arrows, but will also increase your dps a tad.

I agree with what others have said and that is that no broken game mechanic should be fixed with aa's.  If they make endless quiver an aa then it would probably be an end-line skill and then every ranger would have no choice but to go down that line. 

I'd also like to see magical quivers out there that can can generate their own magic arrows like the raid bows do (perhaps not quite as powerful however).




I think a better solution is just to get a % of our arrows back, the same type that was consumed. If on average every other class uses 100 arrows in an hour of play, and a ranger uses 1000 arrows in an hour of play, we should get roughly 90% back.
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Old 01-11-2007, 02:09 AM   #143
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Starness wrote:

Nuladen wrote:We shouldn't be paying for arrows period. Paying for auto-attack and not for CA's is a poor solution. The simple fact remains that no other class relies on a bought/paid for component to do either auto-attack or CA damage everytime a skill is used in combat.

You're only half correct. Assassin's have ranged CA. They consume arrows as does the AA that they use when they are using these ranged CAs. Swashys and Brigs also have ranged CAs. They also consume ammo (thrown).

A more accurate statement would be that no other classes ability to do their job relies so heavily on a bought/paid for component. Other classes still have to buy ammo and other classes still have to use that bought ammo if they want to 'be all that they can be'.

This issue is that an Assassin without arrows may not eeek out all the DPS he can, but he can still do good DPS. He's hurt by the lack of them, but not incapacitated. A Ranger without arrows is pointless.

I feel the need to correct you because it's statements like these that bring on the ire of non-rangers on this issue.


That's why I said 'relies', don't correct me for you mis-interpretation.
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Old 01-11-2007, 08:13 AM   #144
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Please dont start bickering over semantics please.. You both agree with eachother, there is no need to go on about it.. If either of you wish to debate on why rangers should keep things the way they are, or why we should have to pay money, or anything to that effect im more than happy to debate it.. However, I am not going to jump in on a bad sibling squabbel.
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Old 01-11-2007, 03:13 PM   #145
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I've seen this thread type multiple times so I didn't read anything before the Dev statement, my apologies if this has been said before.As vendor crafted are more cost effective and near as effective, I'd just prefer they gave a rare crafted, inifinite tier appropriate arrow. After doing that, maybe they can go back and actually add in some of those unique arrow types that they claimed keep them from adding infinite quiver type skills. To keep ammo relevant, I've also suggested that they make a special class of adornment for ammo. After all, they did say that one of the main motivations for not giving endless quiver was that it limited what type of ammo could be added into the game, why not actually add some variety in ammo then to justify this? To keep crafted relevant, make such adorns work only on crafted arrow stacks. Heck, they could even bring back the pre-LU24 rare arrows/ammo and have them be used for this purpose as well.I hope this issue doesnt languish for yet another year waiting for resolution. At the very least, arrow quality should matter for the art/the art should compensate for the auto attack damage.
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Old 01-11-2007, 04:20 PM   #146
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Oakum wrote:
LoL, a meleeing ranger will out dps a warden especially in treasured gear. Got to love that statement. Maybe you have a fury and just dont know it. Just being funny with that last one as i am 99.9 percent sure you would know if you had a fury. Nope, i have a warden, lvl 70 with 75 AA:s atm... And its a melee warden.Yep got to like warden easy mode. Spam all heals, repeat and add group heals since that is the only way we have a hope of handling a big spike hit, repeat spam heals and throw in a nuke. Good fight. Yah, i admit that spike hits are a tad annoying, but... For normal group / instance play, thats not an issue... its more of an issue in raiding i would say.Or atleast i've had a blast even tanking some instances... its funny that you really dont need taunts if you have a small enough group playing SMILEY(trio)Wardens should be given bows so that we can have easy mode DPS like rangers. Stay safe from aoe's and hits and do decent damage. I would pay for arrows if they let us use them.Well, its hard to stay safe from AoE:s if you're a melee warden anyway? SMILEYAnd if you believe what they write about spellcasting wardens, they actually outdps the melee ones by 200-300DPS (iirc, or something like that). So, what gives? Arent warden out of AoE range also with their spells or not?
 
KK, getting a little out there with that reply but I did it to emphase to Xan to please not to artifically inflate my primary class in order to get his primary class fixed since that may give the dev's the false opinion that wardens are fine when we have some very valid issues including useless spells, being out dps'ed by other non druid priest when druids are the DPS hybrids, and the useless eof AA's. Well, my primary class seems to be the warden nowadays, so... And all classes have useless spells. And if you're being outDPS:ed by other NONdruid priests, there's something really wrong about your playstyle SMILEYAnd the warden eof AA's arent useless either, they opened a whole new exiting playstyle to the class. Melee. If you dont like it, it doesnt mean that it sucks.Cures line were okay but not great but now are worthless since they were nerfed. I had to respect and even let points sit unused until i have some free time since I am not a PVPer and the rest just dont really improve the class at all.Yah, sucks that they nerfed em to uselesness...
 
Comparing a priest to a priest for DPS is valid. Comparing a ranger to a priest for DPS is invalid since if you ever ran a parser you would know that Fury's are the best DPS priest thanks in part to their usefull EOF aa's and I have yet to parse even half of a rangers DPS in a combination of legendary with some fabled even when not required to heal. *edit*oh and i log every second of my play time, so yah, i really have run some parses.... No, its not invalid. Comparing a scout DPS to priest DPS is valid, since the scout DPS should be >>>> than the priest DPS. No matter what priest class is compared. It still should be that way.... And besides, im 100% sure that i will LOOSE every parse against my warden with my ranger IF i didnt use any arrows or poisons... and i think you know it too SMILEYOf course i will outDPS my warden if i use my ranger how it should be... But the whole point of this thread was that the arrow usage for ranger is MASSIVE and your sucky gather arrow CA:s wont help you in the long run. You WILL have to buy a LOTS of arrows if you wanna play with your ranger a lot. Even DEV's have stated this really is an issue. I was just pointing out, that this is 1 of the main reasons im not playing my ranja anymore, instead i play with my melee warden... which pays 0c for her DPS and heals. And i have a blast SMILEYSry for the derail on my msg, but i just had to reply once...

++Xan

Message Edited by xandez on 01-11-2007 01:23 PM

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Old 01-11-2007, 11:49 PM   #147
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No idea what level you are Deson but maybe you should go back and read the thread, because it doesn't read like you especially understand the quandry.  I admit forums are poor to read this off of but it sounds like you don't think we have an arrow problem.  It reads like you think woodworkers make cheaper arrows and that can meet the demand of rangers.  It get that off of this statement:

Quote:

As vendor crafted are more cost effective and near as effective, I'd just prefer they gave a rare crafted, inifinite tier appropriate arrow. After doing that, maybe they can go back and actually add in some of those unique arrow types that they claimed keep them from adding infinite quiver type skills. To keep ammo relevant, I've also suggested that they make a special class of adornment for ammo. After all, they did say that one of the main motivations for not giving endless quiver was that it limited what type of ammo could be added into the game, why not actually add some variety in ammo then to justify this? To keep crafted relevant, make such adorns work only on crafted arrow stacks. Heck, they could even bring back the pre-LU24 rare arrows/ammo and have them be used for this purpose as well.

-------------------------------------------

??

The whole point of this is that pc crafted arrows are NOT cost effective.  Go ask the woodworkers.  Not for crafters and not for rangers.  Not even remotely.  The difference in crafting to buying off an npc vendor is 1 silver for a lot more pain in time wasted.  Woodworkers will not make arrows, they don't want to, it makes no sense, its too much work and there is no profit.  And I don't blame them when I go through so many arrows.  This effect only really comes about the higher level you get as a ranger, the faster you get, the better geared you get, the more AAs you have and if you raid or group regularly arrow consumption all increases.  Even some solo rangers are feeling it at the highest levels.

With a secondary point being as the ONLY class that is a primary ranged class using consumables (assassin, troubs, swashies are not PRIMARY RANGED nor do they rely on range for the significant amount of their damage, nor do they have AAs consuming arrows at our rate) why the heck are we paying for it?  And not just paying for it going bankrupt for it over and over and being extra punished for it by raiding, and using the AA lines that *increase* (ahem multshot? anything affecting our CA and autoattacks and gives us doubleshot) our arrow use making us the most expensive class by a not even debateable margin in this game?

Personally I'd like to see my arrow animation replaced with *kaching* sound effects or the whole gold coins with wings thing someone suggested in another thread.  Go and fight yellow and orange con mobs at 70 every week and think about how much you are spending everytime you *miss* because those take arrows too.

I think there have been some interesting, not so practical and incredibly insiteful views here.  We have a dev that says he plays ranger.  We've heard it before with the issue, we have a class being extremely hurt by it and other ranged that complain about it too.  We should not even be having this discussion.  This is patently unbalanced, unfair, unfun, class defining, impacts other spheres like crafting and the economy and needs to be addressed.

Message Edited by Hisvet on 01-11-2007 11:02 AM

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Old 01-11-2007, 11:58 PM   #148
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I personally would like to see whatever solution they come up with involve crafting.  Mostly increasing the amount of arrows made per combine.  I would take up woodworking and make my own.  Just something about making my own ammo would make my ranger even more personal.
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Old 01-12-2007, 04:17 AM   #149
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I apologize,I wasn't clear. If it were practical, I'd link a previous post I made a long time ago when this issue was raised. I don't think paying for common ammo  is a good idea. As was stated in an earlier post,  any cost that no one else has to endure is unfair.My comment  about vendor cost vs crafted cost was just a fragment that I currently can't think of how to clarify so ignore it.In a perfect world, I'd like the common ammo to just be "automatic" with the bow; the bow supplies it's own ammo without summoning or anything, it's just assumed there. I doubt the mechanics will support that any time soon so, I just suggested the unlimited ammo item as a place holder until then.The rest of my suggestion was to actually address the current lack of variety in arrows since it's oft cited as a reason they dont want to add an "endless quiver" like item/ability.I'd personally really like to see some variety there for both crafting and usage reasons. Crafting so that there's a reason to do it and usage so that there is some thought to matching arrows to the situation. No matter what though, the current situation just doesnt work and I'd like to see some change just like everyone else but, I don't want it to just be cosmetic like increasing stack limits/ crafted results. I'd actually like the "Kaching" sound, would make me think I was playing the old Zelda.
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Old 01-12-2007, 09:39 PM   #150
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Hard to keep the Rangers happy as well a Woodworkers. I have both and don't like the situation for either.
 
Look at the Carpenter's repair kit. Anyone can buy a few of these and carry them around and fix their own gear if it gets below 40% condition. You don't have to be a Armorer, Tailor, Weaponsmith, Woodworker or Jeweler to do this.
 
I was thinking that instead of having a Woodworker craft stacks of ammo for hours on end, they could instead craft ammo-making kits for each tier capable of making 1000 ammo with each use. At present prices, this would cost about 50g each in fuel at tier 7 and I agree that the fuel cost of crafter-made arrows should be halved at least.
 
This way you don't have to worry about space for extra ammo. Rangers are still paying for arrows, but hopefully at a reduced cost. Woodworkers have something worthwhile to craft as Rangers can stock up on several kits: Adamantine Slashing Arrow Kit, Adamantine Rounded Arrow Kit, etc.
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