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Old 03-08-2006, 12:27 AM   #31
Mystiq

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Banditman wrote:Yea Mystique, that's the mechanic we were talking about in another thread.The terminology we were using is that we think a potential solution would be to allow STA buffs to raise the cap.  I don't remember the exact thread name but I think it was started by Kyin.

Yeah I guess that's what I'm really getting at lol. I was never good at summarizing.
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Old 03-08-2006, 12:27 AM   #32
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So everything is fine as long as your position in the MT group is not questioned?
 
But yeah, we don't have one reason to complain about. We're great backup healers. Yeehaa...
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Old 03-08-2006, 01:15 AM   #33
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Melioid wrote:
So everything is fine as long as your position in the MT group is not questioned?
 
But yeah, we don't have one reason to complain about. We're great backup healers. Yeehaa...

No, you twist my points.  I agree with you that mystics are better backup healers than defilers, but your conclusion is not reasonably drawn from what I wrote.

Mystics are an equally good choice for the MT group, and a better choice now in many situations.  With one defiler on a raid, but with the mystic in the MT slot, defilers are also still useful and valuable at the raid, because we can still patch heal and single target debuff the main raid mob.  But more than one defiler at the raid is a waste of a raid slot.  One defiler, whether in the MT group or in a secondary group, can cast all the debuffs needed on the raid mob, there is no reason or any use for having two.  Mystics, on the other hand, are a good choice in EITHER the MT group or in a secondary raid slot as a backup healer, due to your superior versatility and healing abilities.  You can cast torpor and other spells out of group.  Defiler's have no such capability.   So my point is simple, a guild trying to run a lean roster and do 24 person raids each day is best off with two mystics on the roster, but only one defiler.

Your class is more versatile, and thus more in demand, and it should therefore be easier for mysticsl to get into raiding guilds in the first place, because a larger number are needed compared to defilers.

So why are you complaining again? 

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Old 03-08-2006, 01:21 AM   #34
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Ixnay wrote:

Mystique wrote:
What I would like to see is a change to the way stats contribute to power and health when you cross the cap. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that you get X amount of HP from each sta point you have untill you reach the cap, at which point you only receive Y amount of HP, which is lesser. And when your sta is buffed putting it over the cap where before it was not, the amount of sta over the cap is a lesser return.  Why not make it so that if you start with, say, 450 sta, and you receive a buff putting your sta at 500, which is 10 over the cap, that 10 over isn't affected by the cap, so you reap the same, calculable return on HP every time as long as you start under the cap? Any stat buff applied after this would be affected by the cap however. It would make buffing actually take some thought and planning, putting that control and tactics angle that I know some of you like back into our hands.

Just as mystic STA buffs overlap with STA buffs of other classes, defiler debuffs overlap with the debuffs of other classes.

We hear much talk on these boards about the stat cap, and how a buff for any stat will be wasted once over the max.  From the mystic posts I've read, this seems to be your main complaint about your buffs, that you would like them to be pure HP buffs rather than STA buffs.

But what about the debuff cap, and what is it?  Surely there is a debuff cap, if you add up all the STR debuffs possible to land on a mob by any class, for example, anyone can see that if they all landed for the full amount and stacked, they would debuff the mob's STR far below zero.  But we know that a mob's STR cannot in fact be below zero, because a mob with zero STR couldn't hit, and probably shouldn't be able to even stand up lol.  The same is true with other defiler debuffs, every stat debuff we get overlaps with stat debuffs given to other classes, making them only marginally or partially useful at best.  And if all of the mob's stats were reduced to zero, the mob would just lay on its side, unable to hit or cast at all, and we know that isn't the case.  So defiler debuffs are only partially useful, and situational at best.

So should mystics get special buffs that stack with everything else, and are never conflicted or even partially unused based on a stat cap?  Oh wait, you do.  You got Bolster.   Congratulations on being able to do something that defilers cannot.  Perhaps defilers should start asking for debuffs that reduce stats on a mob in the same way that Bolster overrides the stat cap and increases stats and hp on the tank.  Then we could be equal to you.


First of all, I never said that we or any class should get buffs that always ignore the stat cap. My point is that buffs (and even debuffs if you want to bring them into the discussion) could be changed so that placement order becomes a factor in how effective they work. Get the biggest ones on, with a chance for a bonus over-cap benefit.Secondly, I don't know where you got the idea that Bolster overrides the stat cap, but it certainly does not. I've used it and tested it enough to know that. The cap on stats is 510 @ lvl 70. Buff any stat that has a secondary effect (like sta and wis) and you will see ZERO change beyond that, unless you're buffing a ridiculous amount (like 400+). Buff someone with Bolster whose stats weren't capped before but become capped with it, and it's no different than with any other buff - significantly diminished returns after 510 to the point of no visible benefit.
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Old 03-08-2006, 01:27 AM   #35
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Ixnay...  NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT YOU

Your arguments are so biased about YOU keeping YOUR class more powerful its not even funny.

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Old 03-08-2006, 04:09 AM   #36
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Mystique wrote:
Secondly, I don't know where you got the idea that Bolster overrides the stat cap, but it certainly does not. I've used it and tested it enough to know that. The cap on stats is 510 @ lvl 70.

I had been misinformed on that point then, thank you for correcting it.
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Old 03-08-2006, 04:20 AM   #37
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Florin wrote:I thought mystics being the good side should buff HP ( life ) more and power less while defilers , evil side, should focus on power.Yet is not like this. Is there any logical explanation  for this?I thought mystics the good side should focus on the buffs and beneficial spells like that while defilers would focus more on debuffs and dps.It shouldnt be that defilers buff more HP than mystics. They should reverse it, give mystics more HP buffs and defilers more power buffs and this prolly would balance the classes a lil bit.

Lol, how did you come to this conclusion? What makes health good and power evil since they're both buffs? All healers have to share a lot of functionality, otherwise there's no way all healing classes would be able to be the only healer in a group.

 

 

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Old 03-08-2006, 04:22 AM   #38
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Mystique wrote:
Secondly, I don't know where you got the idea that Bolster overrides the stat cap, but it certainly does not. I've used it and tested it enough to know that. The cap on stats is 510 @ lvl 70. Buff any stat that has a secondary effect (like sta and wis) and you will see ZERO change beyond that, unless you're buffing a ridiculous amount (like 400+). Buff someone with Bolster whose stats weren't capped before but become capped with it, and it's no different than with any other buff - significantly diminished returns after 510 to the point of no visible benefit.

Mystique is entirely correct, but dont let the facts get in the way of a good story Ixnay.

You accuse Mystics of misinforming their class and yet you dont even know how the stat cap works.

Next time you blunder into a topic with both guns blazing, try and make sure they arent pointed so squarely at your feet.

 

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Old 03-08-2006, 05:27 AM   #39
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Ixnay wrote:

Mystique wrote:
Secondly, I don't know where you got the idea that Bolster overrides the stat cap, but it certainly does not. I've used it and tested it enough to know that. The cap on stats is 510 @ lvl 70.

I had been misinformed on that point then, thank you for correcting it.
That's just rich :smileyhappy:. I don't think any of us need to hear any more assumptive
condescending from you with regards to who is and isn't misinformed. Any time you wanna open a dialogue in game to find out what Mystics really do and don't have, buff and don't buff, you send me a tell.
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Old 03-08-2006, 06:25 AM   #40
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Ladies and Gents,

Firstly yes, I am a Defiler and I am on your boards.  I'm not here to create a stir just clear up a couple of misconceptions (and hopefully not [Removed for Content] you all off like a few of you have done on the Defiler boards to us).

I personally think that we are pretty evenly matched at present.  Many Defilers do not like and will not use the DPS skill Defile thanks to the fact that it will break mez and is therefore useless on a raid where there are a couple of mobs grouped with one main Named. 

Heals: we actually heal for roughly the same amount.  Sure my heal max heals for around 1.7k hp but the recast timer on it is quite massive.  In total we are looking at over 15 seconds between each 'big heal' so whilst 1.7k hps sounds very nice, in practice out heals are pretty even.

Wards are the same.

Debuffs: I duo a lot (it's the only way I xp) so this is terribly important to me.  I personally find it a lot easier to duo a heroic mob with my partner than a group of heroics whilst my Mystic buddy finds it much easier to deal with a group.  For my mind, that makes us pretty similar/even there.

STA buffs: well here's a fun fact for you: a mystic actually gives our MT 30 extra HP than I do when he isn't at the cap for STA, ie he focuses on STR and AGI.  So again we are pretty even there.

The big difference between our classes is that you guys have bolster and we have defile.  ie you guys buff someone's stats and we do a little more DPS.  Sure you guys got nerfed and now defile works (apparently) how it was designed, but when you take it into account that bolster is just a nice buff you cast whenever it's up on your tank, and defile is situational, well who got the better of the two skills?  I can't and won't use defile in a raid, whereas bolster is a sweet skill, regardless of the reduction in stats, which will be very useful in any situation.

Honestly I am sick of hearing all the bleats and whinges about how screwed over BOTH classes are.  We are pretty even now, so lets start building a bridge and get over it.

To the OP:  Totally agree with you mate with respect to defining Defilers and Mystics as seperate subclasses.  I would love to see a little more specialisation come into this game, but unfortunately I believe it's too little too late.  Maybe we can suggest this for EQ3  :smileyvery-happy:

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Old 03-08-2006, 07:58 AM   #41
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Swishwah wrote:
Heals: we actually heal for roughly the same amount.  Sure my heal max heals for around 1.7k hp but the recast timer on it is quite massive.  In total we are looking at over 15 seconds between each 'big heal' so whilst 1.7k hps sounds very nice, in practice out heals are pretty even.
I had actually done a spreadsheet on Templar vs Mystic vs Fury heals some time ago.  What I noticed was that if all 3 classes chain healed (both small and large line), the total amount healed per second over time was actually very very close.  One might thik that there is a slight advantage in terms of "down time" for the slower healers like Templar and Defiler, as they have to cast less for the same heals, but this advantage is mitigated by the fact that the faster healers heal faster, which gives them more oppurtunities to weave a different spell in which do not overlap the recast timers of the heals.  Ultimately, the conclusion I came to was that the faster (and weaker) your heals are, the more you have to cast (duh) to cover the same damage, but it doesn't mean you spend more time casting (it's roughly equal).  Additionally, when graphed, the faster healers total amount healed over time was generally more often ahead than behind.  It looked something like if you drew 2 different sets of stairs, slower/powerful heals have higher risers, but longer treads, and faster/weaker healers have shorter risers, but shorter treads.  The slope of them all tho, were roughly equal.There is one thing that tilts the tables in the Defilers favor tho - and that is the fact that we supplement our heals with health.  Some cite this as a disadvantage, but if we ignore the health aspect (which is usually not noticeable in regular gameplay anyway), Defilers have the most efficient heals when speaking in terms of power used per health healed.
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Old 03-08-2006, 07:06 PM   #42
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Thats a great assumption on healing, but it assumes that ALL you are doing is chain healing to get the cast time benefit.

I am slowing, debuffing, tearing down stats, re-warding (we have the same cast time on wards if I remember correctly, if not please give me the cast and recast on our wards)

Point is, how often does that 1.5 Seconds extra cool down to cast again come into play on your big heal? ours takes 3 seconds to cast, yours takes 3 seconds to cast.

Sure if I am Spam healing for my life, I am probably on a raid.  but then again on a raid I am Spam warding and slowing so healing does come into play unless I am in a single group.

And there is also the Dot/power siphon.  Oh how I would LOVE to have any form of canni... at all... so the quoting how yeah your heals over time match up to what ours heal given a

graphics analysis.  You will 99% of the time never be in a situation where you have to heal over and over again in a group.  You will  be warding and group warding to keep your group up

and patch healing if you couldnt get your wards up quick enough to prevent the damage.  Of course this is just my point of view here.  Not speaking for everyone else, but I think I am not

too far off base.

But love the talking points in comparision.

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Old 03-08-2006, 09:40 PM   #43
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The recast time on your spells does nto play as big part as you thing.  As stated in Bandits post on heals defilers Heals at adept one heal more damage per sec. than a mystics heals at adept 3.

And on the above poster even if your spam healing because they heal more with such a small amount of time with there recast they end up having a much higher Hps so even then they out heal us.  The argument that sure we heal more but the longer between casts is defeated when you veiw that info.  The cast time doesnt offset it enough.  Do I want it to?  No I rather just see mystics brought up to the same healing level instead of taking defilers down.

So who heals better? recast time and all.... Defilers

 

On topic of all stat buffs I think to make every class's buffs useful that stat buffs should not be effected by caps.  This allows for more control over what each class brings to the table.

 

Debuffs,

There is a 50% slow and dps debuff cap.  Currently I have not been able to find a stat debuff cap as after getting a few classes together we took a caped out tank and debuffed him fully and all of the debuffs stacked (note i didnt use the same classes to do this)

 

So debuffing stats seems to bring out the best debuffs sense the DPS and slow caps are easy to reach.

 

Message Edited by Kyin on 03-08-200608:48 AM

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Old 03-08-2006, 09:56 PM   #44
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Melioid wrote:
So everything is fine as long as your position in the MT group is not questioned?
 
But yeah, we don't have one reason to complain about. We're great backup healers. Yeehaa...

classes like Templars, Guardians, Defilers have no business being out of MT grp, put us in any other grp and were nothing but useless deadweight. You on the other hand are alot better outside of MT grp than us. With buffs that benefit dps grp, awesome debuffs, AND torpor. Of course everything is fine if our postition in the MT grp is not question, its the ONLY thing that we can do well. But yeah what ever, let Mystics be better than Defilers in MT grp, then the Defiler class can be 100% useless. Yeehaa..........
 
 
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Old 03-08-2006, 10:21 PM   #45
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is a templar ineffective in a non MT group? No. 

Is a inq ineffective in a MT group?  No.

They both are great picks for the MT group though due to sanc. Temp is used more often, or prefered.  Both classes have great buffs that do there job 100%

Is a defiler ineffective outside of a MT group?  No, you do just fine doing the same thing mystics do.

Is a mystic ineffectice in a MT group?  No, we do a good job in a MT but our buffs are not as effective as a defilers.

 

For group placement it shouldnt be this class has to be in a MT group or it sucks. or if this one is in a MT group it sucks.  For balance every class should be a viable pick.  Problem is it is not.

The main problem is not that your debuffs (tenrals) and circle require you to be in the MT group it is that your buffs are better for the MT group as well.  The buffs for a mystic should be just as effective if not better than a defilers buffs, the debuffs for a defiler should be (and are) better than a mystics. 

The real problem is not that the buffs are not balanced, they are if IF the buffs were not effected by the caps.

Fact is they are and that makes defilers buffs better as there is currently no cap on HP buffs.

Healing is still inbalanced in fav. of the defiler

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Old 03-08-2006, 10:24 PM   #46
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Kyin wrote:

And on the above poster even if your spam healing because they heal more with such a small amount of time with there recast they end up having a much higher Hps so even then they out heal us.


My point was that this statement is a myth.  Given X time period, total potential healing by ALL healers are approximately equal.  In fact, with all healers spam healing, the faster healers actually have their total HP healed higher more often (average HP/sec is approximately equal tho).In any case, yea, the ability to cast other spells matter.  My analysis seemed to indicate to me tho there is no advantage here nor there.  In attempting to fit spells in between recasts, it is much easier to do so when the recast timers are lower than they are higher AND still maintain the same amount of HP healed (this may seem counter intuitive, but I did the calculations).  Of course, none of this takes into account wards and what the debuffs do, but it's hard to analyze everything at once, and that is why I built a limited model to look at heal efficiency vs cast times, as opposed to tackling the impossible task of looking at everything.Ultimately the difference for me is more of a style of play.  I know that as a Defiler I have to be pre-emptive and look further ahead than the next heal or ward.
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Old 03-08-2006, 10:27 PM   #47
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Kyin wrote:

Is a defiler ineffective outside of a MT group?  No, you do just fine doing the same thing mystics do.


I believe it's been argued that a Mystic outside the MT group has more use than a Defiler outside an MT group does, given that more Mystic spells affect raid friends than Defiler spells do.(I am still puzzled about this MT group thing... is being in the MT group the epitome of a healer's existence?  I just like killing stuff.)But i do agree tho that it would be nice and balanced if each class could be in the MT group as often as every other class.

Message Edited by Sokolov on 03-08-200609:28 AM

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Old 03-08-2006, 11:16 PM   #48
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Sokolov wrote:I believe it's been argued that a Mystic outside the MT group has more use than a Defiler outside an MT group does, given that more Mystic spells affect raid friends than Defiler spells do.
Really?  Do tell!  What spells would those be?

Kyin wrote:So who heals better? recast time and all.... Defilers
You misread my post.  The one heal that was compared at differing qualities was biased in favor of a higher quality Mystic spell against a lower quality Defiler spell and the numbers bore that out.The other two heals were compared at equal quality levels and worked out roughly the same, within a few HPS of each other.
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Old 03-08-2006, 11:18 PM   #49
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Message Edited by Kyin on 03-08-200610:26 AM

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Old 03-08-2006, 11:20 PM   #50
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Please go back and re-read the Heal Data post.  Defiler and Mystic healing is in fact very close to equal.  Close enough that it's wasted effort trying to get them changed.
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Old 03-08-2006, 11:23 PM   #51
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I can understand the craze over being in the MT group. You feel important, like you're the best 1/4 of the people in the raid. But what it really boils down to, for high end raiding at least, is min/maxing so the MT lives and preferably doesn't run out of power. I was always in the MT group of my guild since day one of raiding, because we never had a Defiler with the play time or skill that I have, and because well almost everyone just put a Mystic in the MT group back then lol. It's where all the action is, and one can get comfortable there pretty easily, because it is very different from being in any other group. I don't, however, understand some rabid desire to remain in the MT group at all costs, because that is selfish, and a shameful way to feel about your class and its capabilities beyond a mere microcosm of gameplay.I eventually grew to dislike the MT shaman role however. Despite all this talk of how Mystics are supposed to be more buff oriented, I enjoy being able to debuff thoroughly more than frantically trying to keep the MT alive. I wouldn't heal anyone for the first full minute of a raid pull if I could get away with it. This is done more easily outside of the MT group, where I'd also have to Bolster, ward, patch heal AND debuff, all of which need to be cast almost simultaneously. So I can live outside the MT group, and I can live with Defilers being "better suited" for being in the MT group. It's not their fault, it's just the way their spells were designed (not specifically for the MT group, just within their own group as opposed to raid wide). Maybe this is an oversight and should be looked at. I think priests should have more raid-wide abilities as opposed to in-group only.Add to my last statement that I also feel more classes should be interchangable in the MT group. This can be done by making more spells non group exclusive (to uproot the existing status quo) and by separating the classes with more unique abilities (one buffs this, one buffs that) so that a decision can be made depending on each unique encounter for the best group makeup.
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Old 03-09-2006, 01:22 AM   #52
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Mystique wrote:
 
That's just rich :smileyhappy:. I don't think any of us need to hear any more assumptive
condescending from you with regards to who is and isn't misinformed. Any time you wanna open a dialogue in game to find out what Mystics really do and don't have, buff and don't buff, you send me a tell.

Rich?  I'm well aware of how the stat cap works, a Mystic I respect told me that bolster boosted the stat cap, which I why I believed it did that.  But thanks for helping me understand that what it actually does is increase HP by the stated percentage, and boost stats as far as the stat cap.

At least I'm secure enough to admit when I've made a mistake.

Thanks SMILEY

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Old 03-09-2006, 04:50 AM   #53
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Ixnay wrote:

At least I'm secure enough to admit when I've made a mistake.


Lol, no your not. You are actually trying to weasel out of it by blaming a "mystic you respect" for your mistake.

Well I'm glad theres a Mystic you respect, because you can be sure theres precious few who now respect you.

When you said we will be seeing more of you on this forum, you didn't say it would be for comic relief.

Keep up the good work.

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Old 03-09-2006, 07:17 AM   #54
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Id just like to point out that those class descriptions were changed from the original ones (i don't know when but the originals went something like this.

 

Mystic: by beseaching the good spirits you will bolster and bring aid to your allies.

Defiler: by subjugating and commanding the spirits you will enhance and shield your allies from harm.

 

The OPs argument is therefore invalid for anyone with a shaman from the early days (I'm guessing it was sometime around DOF that it was changed)

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Old 03-09-2006, 08:23 PM   #55
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When did this become a NWN forum?
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Old 03-10-2006, 02:06 AM   #56
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Banditman wrote:

Sokolov wrote:I believe it's been argued that a Mystic outside the MT group has more use than a Defiler outside an MT group does, given that more Mystic spells affect raid friends than Defiler spells do.
Really?  Do tell!  What spells would those be?

I was hoping you could tell me, since I am a Defiler, not a Mystic.  But if there aren't any, then you can tell me too and correct my misconception.  In any case, it's just something I remember reading on the forums here, I don't know who said it.  From your... "answer," I will presume there aren't any then.
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Old 03-10-2006, 02:08 AM   #57
Sokolov

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Mystique wrote:I can understand the craze over being in the MT group. You feel important, like you're the best 1/4 of the people in the raid. But what it really boils down to, for high end raiding at least, is min/maxing so the MT lives and preferably doesn't run out of power. I was always in the MT group of my guild since day one of raiding, because we never had a Defiler with the play time or skill that I have, and because well almost everyone just put a Mystic in the MT group back then lol. It's where all the action is, and one can get comfortable there pretty easily, because it is very different from being in any other group. I don't, however, understand some rabid desire to remain in the MT group at all costs, because that is selfish, and a shameful way to feel about your class and its capabilities beyond a mere microcosm of gameplay.I eventually grew to dislike the MT shaman role however. Despite all this talk of how Mystics are supposed to be more buff oriented, I enjoy being able to debuff thoroughly more than frantically trying to keep the MT alive. I wouldn't heal anyone for the first full minute of a raid pull if I could get away with it. This is done more easily outside of the MT group, where I'd also have to Bolster, ward, patch heal AND debuff, all of which need to be cast almost simultaneously. So I can live outside the MT group, and I can live with Defilers being "better suited" for being in the MT group. It's not their fault, it's just the way their spells were designed (not specifically for the MT group, just within their own group as opposed to raid wide). Maybe this is an oversight and should be looked at. I think priests should have more raid-wide abilities as opposed to in-group only.Add to my last statement that I also feel more classes should be interchangable in the MT group. This can be done by making more spells non group exclusive (to uproot the existing status quo) and by separating the classes with more unique abilities (one buffs this, one buffs that) so that a decision can be made depending on each unique encounter for the best group makeup.

I prefer debuffing too =DAnd yea, they did that with the tank classes, giving them each a buff that does a certain resistance type.  Altho in practice it seems most guilds just have one or two main tanks and the other fighter types rarely get to main tank unless it's a trivial encounter.
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Healing Guide - Version 0.5
Fate has perfect wings
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Old 03-10-2006, 02:34 AM   #58
Mystiq

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Sokolov wrote:

Banditman wrote:

Sokolov wrote:I believe it's been argued that a Mystic outside the MT group has more use than a Defiler outside an MT group does, given that more Mystic spells affect raid friends than Defiler spells do.
Really?  Do tell!  What spells would those be?

I was hoping you could tell me, since I am a Defiler, not a Mystic.  But if there aren't any, then you can tell me too and correct my misconception.  In any case, it's just something I remember reading on the forums here, I don't know who said it.  From your... "answer," I will presume there aren't any then.

Torpor. That's it. We have one beneficial spell that's raid wide, and you have one debuff that can't be cast raidwide. Surely these two spells don't single-handedly seal our fate in raid position.
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Old 03-10-2006, 07:06 AM   #59
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My god, what a pack of whingers........
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Old 03-10-2006, 01:53 PM   #60
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Quaan wrote:
My god, what a pack of whingers........
Whingers? Who? I would like to be a whing
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