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Old 03-06-2006, 09:13 PM   #1
Flor

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I thought mystics being the good side should buff HP ( life ) more and power less while defilers , evil side, should focus on power.Yet is not like this. Is there any logical explanation  for this?I thought mystics the good side should focus on the buffs and beneficial spells like that while defilers would focus more on debuffs and dps.It shouldnt be that defilers buff more HP than mystics. They should reverse it, give mystics more HP buffs and defilers more power buffs and this prolly would balance the classes a lil bit.
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Old 03-06-2006, 09:18 PM   #2
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that would mean actual thought went into making of the classes. Silly you. =P

 

Makes sense but thats why its not in =P

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Old 03-06-2006, 09:38 PM   #3
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You echo what I believe to be the sentiment of many Mystics in the feeling that Mystics were intended to be the more defensive / buff oriented of the Shaman.
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Old 03-06-2006, 09:48 PM   #4
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http://www.[Removed for Content].com/hodiswg/defiler.JPGhttp://www.[Removed for Content].com/hodiswg/mystic.JPGSomeone need to change these then. Stright from the class description, mystics SHOULD enhance party atributes while defilers reduce prowess of the enemy.They need to change this ASAP, and stop fooling the poor ppl who buy this game and create a mystic thinking they will be a good buffing character.Someone need to make them aware if they want to buff, they need to make a defiler.

Message Edited by Florin on 03-06-200608:49 AM

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Old 03-07-2006, 12:23 AM   #5
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Florin wrote:
Someone need to change these then. Stright from the class description, mystics SHOULD enhance party atributes while defilers reduce prowess of the enemy.They need to change this ASAP, and stop fooling the poor ppl who buy this game and create a mystic thinking they will be a good buffing character.Someone need to make them aware if they want to buff, they need to make a defiler.

Hello Mystics,

if what you all are saying is to be taken literally, then Mystics should not get any Slows or debuffs at all.  Yet you do have them, in fact the description of Mystic states that you do.  I'm not sure why this is coming up so late in the game but making the shamans very specific as your describing makes for a boring class IMO.  Every healer should be able to do a little of something yet specialize in a few things so that a raid or group can function without being DEPENDENT on ONE type of healer.

Just my 2cp.

 

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Old 03-07-2006, 12:39 AM   #6
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Broomhilda wrote:

Hello Mystics,

if what you all are saying is to be taken literally, then Mystics should not get any Slows or debuffs at all.  Yet you do have them, in fact the description of Mystic states that you do.  I'm not sure why this is coming up so late in the game but making the shamans very specific as your describing makes for a boring class IMO.  Every healer should be able to do a little of something yet specialize in a few things so that a raid, group can function without be DEPENDENT on ONE type of healer.


You are ignoring the root of the problem:Defilers have more debuffs than Mystics do.  The only debuffs that Mystics beat defilers in are AE resist debuffing, and AE slows.  The AE slow is almost useless in a raid context, the mobs that arent directly being attacked by the MA are either mezzed or are being AEd and are dead before AE slow finishes casting.Defilers buff HPs better than Mystics do.  Arguments can be made that with bolster they are equal, but consider then that:   Defilers buff consistently for that ammount of hps with 3 buffs.  Once cast, there is no mana upkeep.   Mystics buff under defilers in a consistent sense and can only pull ahead in spurts with bolster at the cost of mana.  Mystics have to use 5 spells.If that were fixed we could accept the things below this point, but I'll continue for a sake of completeness.Defilers also get Defile, which gives them more damage options than mystics.Defilers direct heals heal for more.Defilers wraithform has hp regen, which is much more useful than the +str mystic bearform has.
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Old 03-07-2006, 12:45 AM   #7
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I do not beleive I was ignoring the "root", I was responding to the post that the OP started which questioned the form and function of the two shaman classes.  Defiler being Debuffers, Mystic being Buffers.  What your talking about is other issues that from my observation have been debated repeatedly on these and other forums ad nuaseum.

Again I'll state, based on the OP's post, If Defilers are supposed to be the weakeners of enemies and Mystics the Buffers of allies, then Mystics should get no debuffs if Defilers are not able to buff HP.  Just my opinion based on the original post.  You are going over a laundry list of concerns that have nothing to do with the concept the OP expressed.  I understand your current fustrations, and all I can say is "Welcome to the club", Defilers were broken for 9 months and several of our spells are STILL broken, so I certainly can relate.  I persoanlly dont think Bolster should have been changed.

Good luck in getting your issues addressed. 

 

Message Edited by Broomhilda on 03-06-200603:08 PM

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Old 03-07-2006, 12:49 AM   #8
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Broomhilda that is what we are asking for but as you know I am sure you are already the best shaman pick for a group every time.

Defilers heal better

We ward the same,

Defilers debuff better

Defilers buff better

The way it should be.....

We heal the same

We ward the same

Defilers debuff better

Mystics buff better

Dps should be the same for both, though If str mattered for priests melee attacks then I would say, Mystics do more melee damage, defilers more Spell damage.

That would be balanced.

Sadly its not.

So you can say every class is fine, sure take a mystic and he can keep you alive.  But the job is done better on all grounds if you take a defiler.  Is that balanced?  No its not.

Why is it coming out so late?

Well its not its been said sense beta but the difference wasnt as big then.  As the level cap is raised the difference is greater because it is easier to cap out stats and returns for Stats gets less and less. 

Solution

Fix STA buffs (and all stat buffs) to not be goverend by deminishing returns and caps

Do that and all the classes should be better balanced

 

Also on your extream no buff no debuffs for each.  That is not the point and you know it.  The point is one should excel and be better in one area that the other.  That creates difference and balance.  Defilers should debuff better and mystics buff better.  Both classes still get buffs and debuffs just one is better than the other.

To say well you should get 0 debuffs and we should get 0 buffs proves nothing nor balances anything.

Message Edited by Kyin on 03-06-200611:55 AM

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Old 03-07-2006, 01:28 AM   #9
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Correct above.No one is saying Defilers should NOT buff at all, just as they are not saying that Mystics should not DEBUFF at all.What is being thought of, by many Mystics, is something along the lines of:Mystics and Defilers heal for equal amounts.Mystics and Defilers Ward for equal amounts.Defilers buff 75% as well as Mystics.Mystics debuff 75% as well as Defilers.This is clearly not the case presently.  Not even close.As it stands right now:Defilers heal for more than Mystics.Mystics and Defilers Ward for equal amounts.Defilers debuff at least as well, if not better, than Mystics.Defilers buff at least as well, if not better, than Mystics.That is the problem.  The solution is what we are working on.
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Old 03-07-2006, 03:17 AM   #10
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Eepop wrote:
 
You are ignoring the root of the problem:Defilers have more debuffs than Mystics do.  The only debuffs that Mystics beat defilers in are AE resist debuffing, and AE slows.  The AE slow is almost useless in a raid context, the mobs that arent directly being attacked by the MA are either mezzed or are being AEd and are dead before AE slow finishes casting.Defilers buff HPs better than Mystics do.  Arguments can be made that with bolster they are equal, but consider then that:   Defilers buff consistently for that ammount of hps with 3 buffs.  Once cast, there is no mana upkeep.   Mystics buff under defilers in a consistent sense and can only pull ahead in spurts with bolster at the cost of mana.  Mystics have to use 5 spells.If that were fixed we could accept the things below this point, but I'll continue for a sake of completeness.Defilers also get Defile, which gives them more damage options than mystics.Defilers direct heals heal for more.Defilers wraithform has hp regen, which is much more useful than the +str mystic bearform has.

wow you are truely ignorant, our direct heals heal more, but have longer recast, and your direct add max hp.......
 
our wraithform have hp regen but its for compensate for our heals costing HP to cast. a totally useless buff, at least u have a stats buff. ....
 
lol the only debuffs u guys have over us is aoe resist and aoe slow? lol are you freaking kidding me? you guys have the best sta debuffs in the game. And you think AOE slow is useless in a raid? lol i wondering what kind of mobs your guild can kill with that kind of mentality . On zone like PPR, where the Adds hit just as hard as the name, you need mystic aoe slow in the worst way.
 
Anyway....../sigh SMILEY Defilers used to be better than mystics in MT grp, and mystics are alot better outside of MT grp. Now with Bolster mystics can be as good or better in MT grp and defilers are still useless outside of MT grp. And you still crying like #$%#^% lol.
 
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Old 03-07-2006, 03:23 AM   #11
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Yea, sorry for the confusion, this is what i was trying to point out.I wanted to point out that , coming from the description, it leads to the idea that mystics are the ones who would be the better buffers, when in practice is not true.As Banditman and a few others above said, this wouldve been the logical progresion of classes.Mystics and Defilers heal for equal amounts.Mystics and Defilers Ward for equal amounts.Defilers buff 75% as well as Mystics.Mystics debuff 75% as well as Defilers.I will be honest with you. Ive been playing my mystic with proud. Been trying to be the best i can. When they announced the betrayal quest, i couldnt wait til they would anounce the day it will come out.Then i saw bloster...for a few days...and i said, ok, this changes my mind, ill stick with my [Removed for Content] mystic, so what if i- dont have HP regen,- dont have a mana steal,- cant cure stun while stun,- cant dps for [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn],- cant heal as good as defiler,- cant buff hp as good as defilers,List could go on.Then they nerfed Bloster. Well, guess what? Im giving up on mystic class. Seems this is the dev intentions, so here it is.Im changing to defiler as soon as the quest is in. And i bet you so will many, many many others.And when 80% of the shamans will be defilers, maybe, just maybe , the devs will take a good look at mystic class and see what they did wrong.Defilers, here i come!!!
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Old 03-07-2006, 03:37 AM   #12
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Yep, and since Defilers now out dps Mystics by a big margin,  its time there was some balance put back in.

Mystics in general were pretty stoic about being inferior to Defilers in T6, but a couple of things changed that.

1. Some Defilers just couldn't restrain themselves and had to rub our noses in it.

2. When the T7 pendulum looked like it was swinging toward the Mystics favour, some Defilers went beyond a legitimate complaint about the then crappy Defile spell, and actively called for a nerf to Bolster as well.

If Defilers are going to call for a nerf to Mystics in one area in the name of balance,  be prepared to accept scrutiny by Mystics in all those areas where you have held the upper hand thus far.

 

 

 

 

 

Message Edited by icetower on 03-06-200602:42 PM

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Old 03-07-2006, 03:55 AM   #13
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icetower wrote:

Yep, and since Defilers now out dps Mystics by a big margin,  its time there was some balance put back in.

Mystics in general were pretty stoic about being inferior to Defilers in T6, but a couple of things changed that.

1. Some Defilers just couldn't restrain themselves and had to rub our noses in it.

2. When the T7 pendulum looked like it was swinging toward the Mystics favour, some Defilers went beyond a legitimate complaint about the then crappy Defile spell, and actively called for a nerf to Bolster as well.

If Defilers are going to call for a nerf to Mystics in one area in the name of balance,  be prepared to accept scrutiny by Mystics in all those areas where you have held the upper hand thus far.


Does anyone else feel like we are in kindergarten?
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Old 03-07-2006, 04:50 AM   #14
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Florin wrote:........Then i saw bloster...for a few days...and i said, ok, this changes my mind, ill stick with my [Removed for Content] mystic, so what if i- dont have HP regen,

OF course you dont have a hp regen, your heals dont cost you your life.  Do you realize that without a hp regen Defilers could literally heal themselves to death?- dont have a mana steal,

OK thats a given, but quite frankly the mana steal is quite small.  Im not sure why some choose to make a fuss over a losy low tic mana regen.  Besides has it occurred to you that our other spells may cost more power hence the mana steal to help balance things out?- cant cure stun while stun,

[Removed for Content]! Your joking now right?  VOA has been BROKEN since day one, it does NOT cure stun on most raid mobs where it matters.  Thats been posted several times all over these boards.- cant dps for [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn],

Ditto.  Neither can Defilers.  Defile is the FIRST decent damage spell we ever got, but most of us would trade it for bolster or another debuff anyday- cant heal as good as defiler,

We are not better healers overall.  With the Mystic AOE slows you dont have as much to heal anyway.  Our debuffs are single target which means when in a multiple mob encounter we are in a sticky situation.

- cant buff hp as good as defilers,

Yes you can buff other things tho like Stamina.  What they need to do is increase the stat caps.List could go on.

It really doesnt.Then they nerfed Bloster. Well, guess what? Im giving up on mystic class. Seems this is the dev intentions, so here it is.Im changing to defiler as soon as the quest is in. And i bet you so will many, many many others.And when 80% of the shamans will be defilers, maybe, just maybe , the devs will take a good look at mystic class and see what they did wrong.Defilers, here i come!!!

This was my sentiments exactly upon hearing about Bolster.  As far as I see this is a draw.  I do hope they increase stat caps though so you sta buffs go farther.


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Old 03-07-2006, 06:41 AM   #15
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I would really love to see Mystics and Defilers balanced against each other as well as Troubadors and Dirges are. If you take a look at what each bard can buff and debuff, they are as seperate as church and state for the most part. Bards aren't even good or evil, they're neutral yet very distinct. This kind of balance among priests will likely never happen, because when you take a look at priest buffs and debuffs, there is tons of overlapping, and often times a clear advantage is displayed by one over the other, reducing the value of the lesser class.
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Old 03-07-2006, 12:38 PM   #16
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Sokolov wrote:
Does anyone else feel like we are in kindergarten?

Funny, thats what I was thinking about the hysteria over Defile/Bolster on the Defiler forum.

Whats the matter Sokolov, scared Defilers are gunna lose their position as king of the kids?

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Old 03-07-2006, 02:40 PM   #17
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less drama (from both sides, calling us kindergarten after the whinetirades about bolster is funny though) and more disucssion please...and just a note to broomhilda: not only defilers were bugged for 9 months, mystics were on the exact same boat, there is no real merit in using this argument against us SMILEY
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Old 03-07-2006, 05:06 PM   #18
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Anyone think they should make bolster raid wide ?? That'd make me ever so slightly happier.(and posibly oberon barrier?)Just a thought.

Message Edited by Pingu_cfc on 03-07-200604:08 AM

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Old 03-07-2006, 06:33 PM   #19
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tebion wrote:less drama (from both sides, calling us kindergarten after the whinetirades about bolster is funny though) and more disucssion please...and just a note to broomhilda: not only defilers were bugged for 9 months, mystics were on the exact same boat, there is no real merit in using this argument against us SMILEY

I really wasn't calling anyone specifically kindergarten, just the general atmosphere that has been created.
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Old 03-07-2006, 08:05 PM   #20
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Then please leave the MYSTIC forums to MYSTICS.You don't see us mass invading the Defiler forums when things don't go our way do you?  No, I thought not.Thank you for your cooperation.
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Old 03-07-2006, 08:57 PM   #21
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Sokolov wrote:

icetower wrote:

Yep, and since Defilers now out dps Mystics by a big margin,  its time there was some balance put back in.

Mystics in general were pretty stoic about being inferior to Defilers in T6, but a couple of things changed that.

1. Some Defilers just couldn't restrain themselves and had to rub our noses in it.

2. When the T7 pendulum looked like it was swinging toward the Mystics favour, some Defilers went beyond a legitimate complaint about the then crappy Defile spell, and actively called for a nerf to Bolster as well.

If Defilers are going to call for a nerf to Mystics in one area in the name of balance,  be prepared to accept scrutiny by Mystics in all those areas where you have held the upper hand thus far.


Does anyone else feel like we are in kindergarten?

Who stole my cookies?  I'm telling.
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Old 03-07-2006, 09:49 PM   #22
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Actually haveing a healthy discussion about class balance never hurt anyone, especially as our classes are so closely linked.Apologies to those Mystics out there who feel like I am "invading" their turf...Am I even allowed to read these forums? Or am I an evil [Removed for Content] for even daring to look at the Mystic class?Nadir, Defiler of SplitpawEDIT: I would like to see the class descriptions changed to better reflect the classes. The descriptions make it sound like Defiler is a total debuffer and Mystic is a total buffer. But those descriptions were no doubt written by someone in a PR team who has never even played the game /sigh.

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Old 03-07-2006, 09:56 PM   #23
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Reading is fine, commenting with the intent to help is fine...but when a defiler comes here only to oppose the ideas presented here, without firsthand knowledge of the mystic class, its not helpful to anyone.
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Old 03-07-2006, 11:01 PM   #24
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radical_EDWARD wrote:

wow you are truely ignorant, our direct heals heal more, but have longer recast, and your direct add max hp.......
 
our wraithform have hp regen but its for compensate for our heals costing HP to cast. a totally useless buff, at least u have a stats buff. ....
 
lol the only debuffs u guys have over us is aoe resist and aoe slow? lol are you freaking kidding me? you guys have the best sta debuffs in the game. And you think AOE slow is useless in a raid? lol i wondering what kind of mobs your guild can kill with that kind of mentality . On zone like PPR, where the Adds hit just as hard as the name, you need mystic aoe slow in the worst way.
 
Anyway....../sigh SMILEY Defilers used to be better than mystics in MT grp, and mystics are alot better outside of MT grp. Now with Bolster mystics can be as good or better in MT grp and defilers are still useless outside of MT grp. And you still crying like #$%#^% lol.
 

I very agree with the above facts.  I think mystics, in general, have been misinformed about their class by a few outspoken mystic leaders, and too often wallow in self-pity about this misinformation when it just ain't the case.

The fact is, that guilds can benefit from having more than one mystic more than they can from having more than one defiler.  No raid really needs more than one defiler, because NOTHING we have except for our single target ward and 2 heals can be cast out of group.  Stuck in a non-MT group in a "patch healer" position, defilers are next to useless except for casting heal spells on the MT and casting single target debuffs on one mob.  So if there is already one defiler in the MT group, a second defiler is a waste of a raid slot, since with our long heals, we are about the worst choice in game for a backup or patch healer, a cleric, fury or mystic is a much better option for that choice.  In the MT group, I have no problem casting all my debuffs on the mob in between casting all my wards and heals on the group and MT.

So really, guilds don't need more than one defiler with good raid attendance.  Guilds can get better benefits from having multiple mystics, because many of your better spells, such as torpor, work out of group.  So a mystic in a patch healing raid position is a good choice, and makes good sense.

And why do mystics always focus their complaints on defiler HP buffs?  Mystics buff more power than defilers, that is a fact.  This is EQ2, not EQ.  Tanks also need power in this game.

With Bolster, Mystics and Defilers are now equally good choices for the MT group.  The problem is, Mystics are now a better choice if you want to carry a "backup shaman" for raids, because they make better backup healers than Defilers.  So I don't believe Mystics have any right to complain about much of anything at this time, because your greater versatility makes it better for guilds to recruit 2 Mystics instead of 2 Defilers.

You guys should really stop with the self pity and enjoy your class and unique benefits.

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Old 03-07-2006, 11:03 PM   #25
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Banditman wrote:Then please leave the MYSTIC forums to MYSTICS.You don't see us mass invading the Defiler forums when things don't go our way do you?  No, I thought not.Thank you for your cooperation.

Sorry dude, you spread your fertilizer here, and I'm gonna grow in it.
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Old 03-07-2006, 11:04 PM   #26
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LOL!!I rest my case. You said it man....so yay, we are better BACKUP that the defilers are !!OMG, i am happy now.
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Old 03-07-2006, 11:14 PM   #27
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Once again Ixnay with rhetoric and no facts./ignored.next.
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Old 03-07-2006, 11:29 PM   #28
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Anyone is allowed on any forum, whether we like it or not. Ideally, someone of a different class posting on another class's forum should be respectful of the "home" class's feelings, views and rightful bias towards their own class when discussing it. Needlessly arguing over semantics, language skills, and interpretation has slowed down several discussions in this board over the past 2 weeks and it needs to stop.To respond to the OP's concerns, I feel that it is valid to expect your class to echo the official descriptions of it, to a certain degree. The game has been out for a while now though, and there is ample information available about all of the classes to give anyone interested an idea of what they really are in practice. I created my Mystic the day the game was released, and many others here have been around since the beginning as well. If anyone has a right to be upset at how Mystics and even Defilers turned out to be, it's us. But I think this argument of scrutinizing over snippits and vague summations of the classes has run its course, and what should be focused on now is balance against other priests and against the game itself, in their current state.Shamans are the only classes that get to buff both HP and power with our target ally buff, which I think is kind of nice. But Clerics both buff the exact same HP. Druids both buff the exact same power. Yet Foretelling and Portent are not equal, hell the values aren't even distributed evenly among the hp and power given when you add both up, because Portent gives 75 more hp than Foretelling does power. It's only natural to wonder why this is, and I can only assume it is due to the massive amount of stamina that Mystics buff, which theoretically should even out the disparity. Stat caps just make this argument moot tho, and the results are unsatisfactorally erratic.What I would like to see is a change to the way stats contribute to power and health when you cross the cap. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that you get X amount of HP from each sta point you have untill you reach the cap, at which point you only receive Y amount of HP, which is lesser. And when your sta is buffed putting it over the cap where before it was not, the amount of sta over the cap is a lesser return.  Why not make it so that if you start with, say, 450 sta, and you receive a buff putting your sta at 500, which is 10 over the cap, that 10 over isn't affected by the cap, so you reap the same, calculable return on HP every time as long as you start under the cap? Any stat buff applied after this would be affected by the cap however. It would make buffing actually take some thought and planning, putting that control and tactics angle that I know some of you like back into our hands.That idea just kinda occured to me so I haven't really thought about any various repercussions involved. Thoughts?
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Old 03-07-2006, 11:47 PM   #29
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Yea Mystique, that's the mechanic we were talking about in another thread.The terminology we were using is that we think a potential solution would be to allow STA buffs to raise the cap.  I don't remember the exact thread name but I think it was started by Kyin.
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Old 03-07-2006, 11:53 PM   #30
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Mystique wrote:
What I would like to see is a change to the way stats contribute to power and health when you cross the cap. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that you get X amount of HP from each sta point you have untill you reach the cap, at which point you only receive Y amount of HP, which is lesser. And when your sta is buffed putting it over the cap where before it was not, the amount of sta over the cap is a lesser return.  Why not make it so that if you start with, say, 450 sta, and you receive a buff putting your sta at 500, which is 10 over the cap, that 10 over isn't affected by the cap, so you reap the same, calculable return on HP every time as long as you start under the cap? Any stat buff applied after this would be affected by the cap however. It would make buffing actually take some thought and planning, putting that control and tactics angle that I know some of you like back into our hands.

Just as mystic STA buffs overlap with STA buffs of other classes, defiler debuffs overlap with the debuffs of other classes.

We hear much talk on these boards about the stat cap, and how a buff for any stat will be wasted once over the max.  From the mystic posts I've read, this seems to be your main complaint about your buffs, that you would like them to be pure HP buffs rather than STA buffs.

But what about the debuff cap, and what is it?  Surely there is a debuff cap, if you add up all the STR debuffs possible to land on a mob by any class, for example, anyone can see that if they all landed for the full amount and stacked, they would debuff the mob's STR far below zero.  But we know that a mob's STR cannot in fact be below zero, because a mob with zero STR couldn't hit, and probably shouldn't be able to even stand up lol.  The same is true with other defiler debuffs, every stat debuff we get overlaps with stat debuffs given to other classes, making them only marginally or partially useful at best.  And if all of the mob's stats were reduced to zero, the mob would just lay on its side, unable to hit or cast at all, and we know that isn't the case.  So defiler debuffs are only partially useful, and situational at best.

So should mystics get special buffs that stack with everything else, and are never conflicted or even partially unused based on a stat cap?  Oh wait, you do.  You got Bolster.   Congratulations on being able to do something that defilers cannot.  Perhaps defilers should start asking for debuffs that reduce stats on a mob in the same way that Bolster overrides the stat cap and increases stats and hp on the tank.  Then we could be equal to you.

 

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