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Old 08-10-2005, 10:27 PM   #61
Ellywen

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Ugh, they nerfed the badger again?  There's been a Shadowy Attendant Master 1 sitting in our guild vault for a while, and myself and another mystic were all ready to go to bid wars on it... ugh, I was really hoping they were going to make that spell useful finally ><

 

One question - I know you said that healing spells on the same line share a reuse timer now.  Does rejuvenating chant share a timer with the splitpaw expansion cure (I love that thing, I can spam it and my power never drops).  Also, were there any changes to the SP cure?

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Old 08-10-2005, 10:37 PM   #62
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The SP heal is now a worthless piece of garbage.  Remember, the "neat" thing about this spell in Live is that it continues to grow with you.  So, it's significantly better at L50 than it is at L40. In the revamp, it's a L20 spell, and maxes out there. Revamp is still painting with the roller though, so there may yet be adjustments coming.  Better info by the end of the weekend I hope.
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Old 08-11-2005, 02:16 AM   #63
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*** Combat Changes ***

- The health and power of all NPCs has been decreased. This will be most noticeable in heroic and epic encounters.
- Epic encounters will provide greater threat in the form of slightly increased damage.
- Spell casters now make use of a skill called Focus. It is raised by casting spells while being attacked. The Focus skill will be maxed out at the character's current level.
- Your chance to be interrupted while casting is now determined by your Focus skill and the amount of damage being done by your attacker.
- Healing spells generate less hate when healing the opponent's main target, and will generate even less when healing someone who is not currently the opponent's main target.
- Mitigation values have been spread more evenly across armor slots. Chest and leg slots still provide slightly greater mitigation, though less than they did before. This should make it more beneficial to wear high-mitigation armor in every slot.
 
*** Combat Changes ***

- Reduced the chance to be interrupted if you take damage while casting, and increased the effectiveness of focus buffs/debuffs.

- Resurrection effects should now work properly.
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Old 08-11-2005, 08:19 PM   #64
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- Reduced the chance to be interrupted if you take damage while casting, and increased the effectiveness of focus buffs/debuffs. What is a focus buff?
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Old 08-11-2005, 08:25 PM   #65
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Apparently, there are buffs that add to your Focus skill now. Focus is the skill that is checked to see if you can continue casting when you take damage.  It's like the Channeling skill in EQLive. My guess is that Mages have these buffs, but it is JUST a guess at this point.
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Old 08-12-2005, 04:45 AM   #66
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Would it be possible to get info on the cure spells (disregarding the trainings)? Wardens finally got some screens posted on their forums and I saw that one of our t5 deaggro spells has become a group elemental/trauma cure, so was wondering if anything like this happened to any other hlrs. Also kinda think it should be put into the chart as well since that's also a current balance issue on live.
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Old 08-12-2005, 06:16 AM   #67
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Thx for the comparison Bandit.....Are you planning a spell by spell summary at any point? Or does anyone know whether there is such a post I have not seen any...
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Old 08-12-2005, 09:18 AM   #68
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Yes, I am working on a spell by spell chart.  I've come across a tool that will allow me to make VERY accurate comparisons between all 6 priets.

 

Yes, one of our aggro droppers was also turned into some sort of cure, I'll have to get those on the next pass since I'm already half done with getting full data lines.

I hope to have a completely reworked chart up tomorrow at some point with the Mystic, Templar and Warden data on it in directly comparable form.  I'll be working on the Defiler, Inquisitor and Fury data this weekend if all goes well.

Once that pass is done, I'll go back and look at some of the weird changes (like the de-aggro change) that keep popping up.

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Old 08-12-2005, 10:00 AM   #69
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Banditman wrote:

Yes, I am working on a spell by spell chart.  I've come across a tool that will allow me to make VERY accurate comparisons between all 6 priets.

 

Yes, one of our aggro droppers was also turned into some sort of cure, I'll have to get those on the next pass since I'm already half done with getting full data lines.

I hope to have a completely reworked chart up tomorrow at some point with the Mystic, Templar and Warden data on it in directly comparable form.  I'll be working on the Defiler, Inquisitor and Fury data this weekend if all goes well.

Once that pass is done, I'll go back and look at some of the weird changes (like the de-aggro change) that keep popping up.




Oddly enough... I seriously don't remember posting that question here... I know I did in templar forums but I swear I didn't do it here.. -_-; [Removed for Content] Oh well, I'm goin' batty I guess.. thanks for the reply though =)
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Old 08-12-2005, 03:04 PM   #70
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First of all Bandit thank so much for all the info and input your giving us....I know we haven't always seen eye to eye on the mystic class but your input is invaluable.   I saw someone say in server wide chat today that priest class power wasn't going to be wisdom based anymore but all casters were going to be Intelligence based?  I looked in the updates but couldn't find that .....any insight to that comment?  God I hope they are wrong I have a lot invested in getting my wisdom over 200.
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Old 08-12-2005, 05:53 PM   #71
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Larryhg3 wrote:First of all Bandit thank so much for all the info and input your giving us....I know we haven't always seen eye to eye on the mystic class but your input is invaluable.   I saw someone say in server wide chat today that priest class power wasn't going to be wisdom based anymore but all casters were going to be Intelligence based?  I looked in the updates but couldn't find that .....any insight to that comment?  God I hope they are wrong I have a lot invested in getting my wisdom over 200.

But with a high wisdom, you will be protected from enemy spells?
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Old 08-12-2005, 06:05 PM   #72
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Larryhg3 wrote:
First of all Bandit thank so much for all the info and input your giving us....I know we haven't always seen eye to eye on the mystic class but your input is invaluable.   I saw someone say in server wide chat today that priest class power wasn't going to be wisdom based anymore but all casters were going to be Intelligence based?  I looked in the updates but couldn't find that .....any insight to that comment?  God I hope they are wrong I have a lot invested in getting my wisdom over 200.


I really can't imagine this being the case.  Everything since the begining of time in MMO's has always had priest power based off wisdom.  I really wouldn't worry about this right now. 
 
There has been some confusion as to what effect, if any, intellegence would have on our heals.  Some believe a higher int will make the heals more potent.  I have not seen anything to substantiate this though.
 
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Old 08-12-2005, 06:23 PM   #73
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Woah woah woah folks....int has and wont* have anything to do with priest power. The confusion is that Int will play a part in adding a damage modifier to all damage spells(priest, mage, some abilities of other classes too).  That is it.  Doesnt effect heals, our power pools, buffs, debuffs, or anything else except damage spells. When we nuke something, our int is checked against our targets wisdom, and there is some modifier to damage based on that.  The reverse is also true when we get nuked. * Yes Im in beta.

Message Edited by Eepop on 08-12-2005 09:24 AM

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Old 08-12-2005, 06:28 PM   #74
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Thanks Eopop that is how I was reading it too.....however, this person in the public chat was ADAMANT that I was incorrect.  So much so that I decided to come ask those who are "in the know" you that are in beta.  
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Old 08-12-2005, 06:46 PM   #75
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I think the main problem for that person was a tag team of misinformation and a temporary stint on beta of power guzzling combat.  Since then mob hp's have been tuned and power consumption isnt nearly as bad now. I can easily see someone hearing that int will effect the "power of our nukes" and seeing that thier power is running out fast in combat.  Then they reason that since they are running out of power thier pool must be smaller because int is effecting the power cost of thier spells.  But that would a slew of incorrect inferences. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Again 100% certain... Intelligence only plays a role in the amount of damage done by damage spells by providing a modifier when compared to the targets wis.  No spells except for damage spells are affected in any way.  No power cost is affected in any way. Yes I am being repetitive for the sake of stopping misinformation from spreading further.
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Old 08-12-2005, 08:55 PM   #76
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Exactly so.  There was a tuning done that sped combat up considerably recently. INT does not have any noticeable effects on our ability to perform our primary function, Healing.
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Old 08-12-2005, 09:43 PM   #77
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(repost: was posted in Tester forum, but should belong here really)
 
 
As a Mystic I was utterly thrilled (read totally beside myself with glee) to get Fading Spirit Master 1 spell. For those unfamilliar, it is (was) the upgrade to (my now grey) Eidolic Ward, the emergency ward that has no casting time and no power usage, but a very long re-use timer.
 
Today in Splitpaw I was jumped by 2 yellow Fanatics half way through a fight with a Usurper. Couldn't get a ward up (thanks to the loss of parry, and the new interrupts, and focus is not yet high enough) so thought "ahh I know, time for my faithful Emergency Master Ward."  Hit the icon, started casting. Casting? But it has no casting time!? Interrupted 6 times, died, then took the time to check why my most loved of spells had failed me.
 
Imagine my surprise when I read: "Cures noxious and arcane impairments on the mystics group"   A CURE??.  My Emergency, no-cast-time, no-power, save-yer-butt, 930-point MASTER Ward is now a cure?
 
I would laugh if it wasn't so tragic.
 
Please...tell me this is a bug.
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Old 08-12-2005, 09:49 PM   #78
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Uhh . . . Fading Spirit is not technically a Ward, it's an aggro dropper.  The Ward attached was a secondary function. Wards of the Eidolon is the spell you're looking for.
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Old 08-12-2005, 10:27 PM   #79
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Really? The description has the ward as primary function and lists the hate reduction as an "and also".
 
But either way, Eidolic Ward is grey and useless. Fading Spirit was a life-saving emergency ward which shielded me from 930 points of damage at Master 1. Until yesterday that is.
 
Very big loss for my Mystic.

Message Edited by Sacha on 08-12-2005 07:41 PM

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Old 08-12-2005, 11:30 PM   #80
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Ok, I've found a way to get the data for all Priest classes at the App 1 level, which will allow for direct comparisons between all Priests. I've only had time to do the "good" or "defensive" sub-Classes so far (Mystic, Templar, Warden).  You really kinda have to know what all the spells do when you go to compare the non-grouped spells. App 1 Priest Comparison I'll work on the "evil" or "offensive" sub-Classes this weekend. Feel free to discuss, while keeping in mind that combat changes are still being painted with a very wide brush at this point.  I'm reserving commentary until I've had time to see the "dark side" as it were.

Message Edited by Banditman on 08-12-2005 03:31 PM

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Old 08-13-2005, 01:00 AM   #81
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Can you take pics of all your skills and post em like some of the other classes have?
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Old 08-13-2005, 01:32 AM   #82
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That is not what I am attempting to do.

Screenshots do not allow easy comparison across the Archtype, which is my goal.  I'll leave the screenshots to others.

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Old 08-13-2005, 11:49 PM   #83
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Wow, from what I can see sofar it seems mystics will still be the bottom level healers, and unfortunately still the lowest dps.  In a few areas we heal a little faster, but in most cases are FAR outstripped by templars and wardens.  I realize these are still changing and raw numbers don't show how it'll really play out but it does seem that even after the fix us shaman will the the low end.
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Old 08-14-2005, 12:42 AM   #84
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Rest assured that if the final numbers do not improve, there will be some significant complaining.  While I understand perhaps why Wards need to be a little less powerful than the heals of other classes, I currently think that it is too much.  Perhaps my analysis of the "evil" Priests will change my mind, but it may convince me even further of some potential discrepancies.

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Old 08-14-2005, 07:05 AM   #85
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Do you really think shamans can't heal? That would be silly to make a class completely unable to do it's job.
 
Templars are too boring and druids are too fragile. Why do you believe shamans are unable to heal effectively?
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Old 08-14-2005, 08:14 AM   #86
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Did you review and digest the chart I posted ?

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Old 08-14-2005, 06:36 PM   #87
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Thanks much Banditman for posting that app1 chart. Those numbers are very encouraging!
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Old 08-14-2005, 07:11 PM   #88
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First of all, a big thanks to Banditman for all of the information that you've given and effort that you've put in to keep us all updated on the combat changes.

 

I must say that I had been looking forward to the combat changes with some optimism.  It had been evident for quite a while that there were serious shortcomings with the abilities of the class.  The expectation of fixes to these problems, and balancing the classes, prevented me from retiring my Mystic, and re-rolling as a different class.  The principle of how a mystic functions is what had appealed to me originally when I chose my class, and it still does.   Less and less fun (the main reason why we all play the game) was to be found though in playing a Mystic that struggled to fulfil its role at its level.  I have reached level 43 with my Mystic, but progress has slowed up considerably due to the lack of enjoyment.  I have been more content to see what the changes bring, and in the meantime, help lower level guildies/friends and craft. 

 

I have also created a character on Test.  It is still too low a level character though for any meaningful assessment of the changes let alone a direct comparison between the characters.  I must say that I am having more fun playing on Test.  It's not possible to say though whether this is a direct result of the combat changes, or just being at a low level where things are still possible.

 

My intention here was to comment on the comparison table provide by Banditman, and not to ramble on so much.  I appreciate that so far there is no data for the more offensive classes: Defiler, Fury, and Inquisitor.  It is, however, possible to comment on the other defensive classes which should, if a rebalance is successful, be comparable to each other.  As things stand at present though this is not true, and is highly disappointing.  There is still almost a month before the changes go live so I still have some hope that matters will be put right.  It is grossly simplifying the situation, but as far as I see it what is needed is that mystics, wardens, and templars should all have very similar healing ability at the same level: single target, group, and special heals.  The dps from each of these classes should also be comparable.  Buffs/debuffs are more difficult, but at the end of the day the buffs/debuffs provided to each class should provide a comparable benefit.  The situation between defilers, inquisitors, and furies should be the same.  The relationship between the defensive and offensive classes: defensive would suggest to me slightly improved healing at the expense of dps, and to be more buff orientated.  Offensive would be the reverse: slightly lower healing with increased dps and more debuffs.

 

With Minor Healing Mystics are at all levels very power efficient with the HPp figures, but are lacking when it comes down to the HPs values.  Saving power may all be very good, but not if you're unable to heal at a rate that balances the damage.  Wardens are even worse off than Mystics on this spell line.

 

Arch Healing is a similar situation except we don't even have the benefit of being the most power efficient class. 

 

Mystics actually seem to fare the best with group heals.  We have both the best power efficiency, and heal rate at all levels it would seem.  Wardens have very poor ability with this spell line, but do benefit from quick cast times.  I do wonder what the experience is with interrupts and long cast times.

 

As far as special heals are concerned both single target and group, perhaps you can expand on the reasoning why wards should be any less powerful than other classes special heals.  The fact that mitigation is now taken into consideration is definitely a major improvement, but the figures would seem to suggest that wards are still lacking in overall power, and are inefficient.

 

The group hp buff provides exactly the same benefit at all levels across the classes with just a variance on the resistance enhanced.  Whilst the Templar class buff details are not available, I would suspect that they are similar to the other classes with just a different stats enhanced.   I find it very hard to compare the AC buffs for equality.  The same goes for the single target buffs.  Not easy for me at least to comment on whether they each provide the same amount of benefit but in different ways.

 

Instant damage spell lines do not appear to be balanced at all.  Other than at low levels, where there is a slight discrepancy, Mystics and Templars are evenly matched, but Wardens are superior in this respect both in terms of power efficiency and dps.  The situation is even worse when it comes to the DoT spells.  Wardens again having an advantage with these spells, but Templars have higher dps also.

 

Clearly there appears to be a lot more done before the classes are truly balanced.  I just have to hope that this is achieved in the end, and that there will be something to look forward to when the changes go live.

 

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Old 08-15-2005, 08:49 AM   #89
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What frustrates me is that they are still doing "sweeping changes" when these "fixes" were first referenced 3+ months ago.  In reference to what I read from posts, how can a spell like Shadowy Attendant go from being very useful one day to arguably worthless the next?  The game designers should have had a table like Banditman has for each and every class, and the direction they were taking should have been cemented long ago.  From what I am reading, I doubt that's the case.
 
I am definitely of the mindset that I have seen of some posts that come Sept 12 (after all the downtime), things will be broken worse than now.
 
Thank you for all the work and information, Banditman.  You're spending a lot of time doing SoE's work for them, and I hope (for everyone) that it pays off.
 
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Old 08-15-2005, 05:05 PM   #90
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Ok, a lot of changes in this new version. App 1 Priest Comparison The tables at the very bottom are very messy and very incomplete, but I did get data added for Fury and Inquisitor spells.  I tried to do Defiler but was unable to do so due to a bug.  Hopefully the bug will be gone and I'll be able to get Defiler data this week. My level of understanding is growing the more Priests I do.  I was able to assimilate a lot more of the overall picture once I had Fury and Inquisitor data.  I added new tables for AE Damage sub-Class and DoT Damage sub-Class as well as finally being able to place the missing Cleric "buff" - which turned out not to be a buff at all. I must admit that I'm currently very puzzled by what is going on in the Druid Class.  With the exception of AE and sub-Class DoT, Wardens are out DPS'ing the Furies while Furies are slightly out Healing Wardens.  Very puzzling. Overall, I'd say there still needs to be a serious balance pass taken on the 5 main lines across the Archtype, because right now it doesn't look very balanced.

Message Edited by Banditman on 08-15-2005 09:44 AM

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