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Old 08-05-2005, 06:40 PM   #1
Banditman

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Since this is in fact still not Live, the information I'm giving you may change OFTEN.  In fact, some of it already has and I'll try to account for that as much as possible. First thing first.  You can check out a lot of data here:  Priest Comparison Chart Wards.  They now kick serious @#$.  It's unbelievable how much difference this change has made.  I'm still not sure they are properly balanced against the other Priests, but the upgrade in healing power we get from this one change alone is simply astounding.  I even had a Ward expire . . . as in . . . the time ran out . . . while a mob was beating on it. Secondly, Oberon.  It is NOT useless anymore.  It's a significant Ward.  Is it good enough for regular use?  I don't really know yet, but the thing is now 1400 HP with 495 HP per tick regen.  It's really quite powerful. Third, the little badger guy, he ROCKS THE HOUSE.  At Adept 1 he heals at 287 HP / tick.  If you haven't upgraded your little buddy, PLEASE, do so now.  He could very well be the best cure for those nasty mob AE's you'll ever see.  30 second duration with a 40 second recast.  He's still not very "Shadowy" though. Avatar is no longer a "duration" spell.  It's a single target toggle-able with unlimited duration.  It has also been beefed up a bit from the version on Live, higher stats, higher haste. Prophetic Guard / Prophetic Shield is now totally useless.  It no longer buffs power pool, it buffs 1000 ish to Noxious but its only a 36 second duration with a five minute recast.  Everyone hates it, we're hoping to get it changed. Mechanically, all spells of a line share a single recast timer.  It sounds like armageddon, but it's not quite that bad.  I'm sure many of you, like me, had quite a number of heals from lower tiers on your hotbars.  I had Minor Healing, Minor Arch Healing, Healing Ritual, Bounty of the Virtuous, Rejuvenating Chant and Enlightened Healing all on my hotbars.  No more.  Look at the link above to read how each "line" breaks down.  No matter how you slice it, every single spell in a line shares a recast timer.  You're probably looking at Rejuvenating Chant and Enlightened Healing as your only hotbar direct heals, perhaps a tertiary hotbar with a couple smaller ones.  We lost some direct heal ability for sure, but you GAINED so much with Wards I don't think you'll notice.  In doing the Solo Arena in Splitpaw under these rules, I rarely ever cast a direct heal anymore, my Ward is simply and significantly better and more efficient. Our damage spells are now a LOT less costly to cast, meaning that doing damage is no longer a huge drain on our ability to heal.  We're still crappy DPS, but at least it isn't costing us as much to do it. Mouring Soul is now a winner.  It no longer roots you, which is a GODSEND, and it is a flat DPS decrease as opposed to a Slow. I could go on for quite a while talking about the changes, but given the link above, it might be easier for me to just answer any questions you might have.
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Old 08-05-2005, 07:25 PM   #2
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Banditman,

These changes sound very hopeful.  I have looked at the comparison chart, but being the numbskull that I am would you take us through the explanation of one of the spells...For instance the first spell on the chart is Totemic Aid a1.  Can you explain the meaning of PC C RC HV HPs HPp and the significance of these various categories.  Also under MYSTIC LINES and UTILITY the categories change to V1 V2 V3.  Some of these abreviations I do understand, but there appear to be abbreviations that I am not familiar with.

 

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As I stated above I am a numbskull...when I rated your original message I accidently clicked one star when I meant to select 5 stars.  Someone please help over-ride my loathsome error.

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Old 08-05-2005, 07:29 PM   #3
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Man Bandit you just made my day.

I love you long time!! (j/k)

Really though seems to be great changes and I finally get my mitigated wards back been like oh... um... a year.  Yeah though what is up w/ Prophetic!! I mean come on... it isn't like we are power gods compared to other priest classes (if you ask a Templar they are.. but they just whine more).  Perchance they will make Prophocrap (our targetable buff) 1 concentration...

My two favorite classes looking optimystic.. heh coercers getting some good changes too.

But these changes may be like a fart in a windstorm.. here today gone tomorrow.  When time come for its go live I will be happy or sad then but still here =)

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Old 08-05-2005, 07:33 PM   #4
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Ok, good questions. First, please understand that the worksheet is still a work in progress.  Without all the data from all the Priests its value is limited. So on to your specific questions. PC is Power Cost.  C is Cast time (in seconds).  RC is ReCast time (in seconds).  HV is supposed to be Heal Value (maximum), but some of the catagories and spell lines aren't actually heals, so HV might be a damage value, or a stat buff value or something else.  I'm going back and re-labeling things as I can.  Thus in some spots you'll see stuff line V1, V2, V3 . . . for Value 1, Value 2, Value 3.  You'll see things like this for instance:  47  STA   STR in those fields.  That would indicate a +47 to Strength and Stamina for the spell in question.  HPs is Heal per Second.  HPp is Heal per Power. A lot of times I don't bother listing cast times for buffs, especially concentration buffs. In the Single Target Spell section, you will see numbers under the C column, and in that chart, the number is the number of Concentration Points that the spell listed takes. Like I said, it's a work in progress.  Once it's more complete, I'll make a legend that explains the notations.

Message Edited by Banditman on 08-05-2005 11:34 AM

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Old 08-05-2005, 07:36 PM   #5
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Well then got a question for ya if ya know..
 
The oracle lines there is no mention of our Damage Proc.. I used to bet on that to solo do we still have it please tell me we do..

Message Edited by Trathe on 08-05-2005 08:38 AM

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Old 08-05-2005, 07:39 PM   #6
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Hey guys, glad to hear you are getting much lovin', you all deserve it for sticking it out with your Mystics.  Something I did not do, anyway.   Looks like we (Wardens) are getting hit pretty hard with things.  Well its all still in testing, so we will see how it goes.  Anyway gratz on wards finally working!!!!
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Old 08-05-2005, 07:41 PM   #7
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Spag - help me out gettin' all that data man! If Wardens are being pushed back to the point that they are no longer balanced with the other Priests, we need to make that case NOW before the changes go live. Trathe - the damage proc is still there on our Ursine line, I just didn't consider it to be important in the overall balance picture.  One annoying thing (speaking of secondary effects) that is missing in our spells is the secondary effects on our Minor Healing line . . . no more cure Noxious built in.  This makes me sad.

Message Edited by Banditman on 08-05-2005 11:43 AM

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Old 08-05-2005, 07:42 PM   #8
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They are working on it over on our forums, I will post a reminder over there to get you that info.
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Old 08-05-2005, 07:44 PM   #9
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Thanks.  Please understand that my goal is not to get ONLY the Mystics balanced, but to get ALL Priests balanced.  People should play the Priest they like because the "feel" the class, not because one Priest is better than the other. If it means I have to stump for additional Utility for Templars, fine, if they can show it, I can get behind it.  I simply want to see that each Priest has the same opportunity.
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Old 08-05-2005, 07:49 PM   #10
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Thanks banditman, for the great info.  You rock!

I was in such a foul mood yesterday, mostly aimed at SOE, and this has restored my spirits immensely!

Thank goodness I won that stupid shadowy attendant Master 1 spell woot!! 

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Old 08-05-2005, 07:53 PM   #11
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OMG - I cannot wait to see what a Master 1 will do.  287 at Adept 1 is just INSANE.  Even if you figure a modest 20% increase to Master 1 you're looking at 344 / tick.  PER TICK!
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Old 08-05-2005, 08:00 PM   #12
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I dont have the spell yet...does the attendant count as a pet? ie, can you change his name with the new pet naming thing? heh, that would be hours of fun
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Old 08-05-2005, 08:05 PM   #13
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Im gonna say no to that one.  Shadowy Attendant always summons a badger named "Aid of the Oracle". Funny thing about that . . . it is so rarely used that sometimes you get a laugh out of it.  I was in LS, Sol Ro temple area with some friends and a Scout who we didn't know.  We had just finished a battle and we asked if there were any named up.  Scout goes . . . . "Yea, something called Aid of the Oracle".  I was fairly amused.  SMILEY I can rename my Splitpaw mushroom pet.

Message Edited by Banditman on 08-05-2005 12:06 PM

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Old 08-05-2005, 09:14 PM   #14
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Nice work in the chart Bandit! Could you take some time to expand on a few things please? ~It looks like all direct heals and group heals  now heal for less but have a lower power cost as well (they do seem to be more efficient health:power wise) ~Our Ritual line now takes 2 seconds to cast but still has a 13 second recast? ~Same thing with our wards as with our heals, except they mitigate now, lower overall hp buffer but also lower power cost. ~Even further nerfage to haze it looks like? is there any scaleability between ranks now outside of the slow %? ~Howl line resistance debuff petty much cut in half? ~With morning soul being a straight decrease in dps, does this make umbral trap obsolete? Thanks again Bandit!
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Old 08-05-2005, 09:25 PM   #15
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~It looks like all direct heals and group heals  now heal for less but have a lower power cost as well (they do seem to be more efficient health to power wise) In general, yes.  I haven't found this to be a limiting factor at this point. ~Our Ritual line now takes 2 seconds to cast but still has a 13 second recast? Yes, this is something that I believe we will need to get addressed.  I am drawing a blank in attempting to explain it.  Our Arch Healing line is a 15 second turn around versus an 11 second turn around for Templars.  I hate to keep comparing to Templars but at present that is the only additional data I have. ~Same thing with our wards as with our heals, except they mitigate now, lower overall hp buffer but also lower power cost. I suppose the current thinking is that our Wards need less power because they are always perfectly efficient.  I'm not sure I buy that yet, I'm still forming an opinion. ~Even further nerfage to haze it looks like? is there any scaleability between ranks now outside of the slow %? Since I only have the one Haze (Adept 3), I'll have to see what someone else reports for the Adept 1 or Master 1 version of the spell.  I was however able to see the difference between Spirit of the Elephant Adept 1 and Spirit of the Elephant Adept 3 . . . and there is a significant but not overwhelming difference.  I apologize, I should have written down the exact numbers but I did not. ~Howl line resistance debuff petty much cut in half? Yes.  Whether or not that is an issue remains to be seen.  However, to me, the more annoying, and possibly troublesome issue is that the duration on that line is now only 36 seconds.  With combat lasting longer, but the debuff at a shorter duration, you find yourself using this multiple times in a single fight.  That could become a problem in more challenging content. ~With morning soul being a straight decrease in dps, does this make umbral trap obsolete? I can't think of a situation where I'd use Umbral Trap over Mourning Soul now.  Unless they stack.  SMILEY Thanks again Bandit!

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Old 08-05-2005, 09:41 PM   #16
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oh, forgot one! is bounty of the virtuous still on its own timer?
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Old 08-05-2005, 09:48 PM   #17
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Unfortunately, Bounty of the Virtuous is now virtually worthless.  It doesn't scale up, and it's a L20 spell.  SMILEY Incidentally, BotV isn't on it's own timer, it's actually on the timer with Minor Healing at present.  SMILEY
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Old 08-05-2005, 10:43 PM   #18
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Banditman wrote:
Spag - help me out gettin' all that data man!

If Wardens are being pushed back to the point that they are no longer balanced with the other Priests, we need to make that case NOW before the changes go live.


Trathe - the damage proc is still there on our Ursine line, I just didn't consider it to be important in the overall balance picture.  One annoying thing (speaking of secondary effects) that is missing in our spells is the secondary effects on our Minor Healing line . . . no more cure Noxious built in.  This makes me sad.

Message Edited by Banditman on 08-05-2005 11:43 AM



Cool cool thanks.  But, ayup on the damage proc being a basis of balance I would not put it up there either.  It was always just a reason for me to melee behind a mob when some pitifull dps was needed.

Man the secondary effects taken out of our minor heals.. aww man.. did that happen to other classes as well?

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Old 08-05-2005, 10:53 PM   #19
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Yes, it did.  And it's becoming a REAL issue for Druids in particular who had some HoT components attached to help supplement a lower intial value to the direct.  The initial data I have from Furies in particular is quite alarming.
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Old 08-06-2005, 01:00 AM   #20
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I'm curious about how the group ward will work now that mitigation will be taken into consideration.  Assume I'm in a full group of 6 players.  Currently, if I use a group ward and only the tank gets hit, that tank gets the full benefit of the ward rather than 1/6 of that ward.  Now, if we take mitigation into effect, I have to assume the ward is using the mitigation of who it is placed on, not the mitigation of who cast it, correct?  (hope that makes sense).  Ok then, same situation:  if the tank is the only one of the 6 getting hit, does he get the benefit of the entire group ward, or 1/6?  I would think putting a mitigation on a group ward would be a programming nightmare, especially when you take into consideration all the different AC's of each of the 6 group members.  Just curious what to expect here, if you get a chance to test it out.  Thanks!

Message Edited by Arfiniel on 08-05-2005 02:01 PM

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Old 08-06-2005, 01:04 AM   #21
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As near as I can tell with a Group Ward, the mitigation is calculated when the blow is struck. So, for instance, if a Guardian, Mystic and Warlock were in a group with an active Group Ward: All hits against the Guardian use his mitigation. All hits against the Mystic use his mitigation. All hits against the Warlock use his mitigation.
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Old 08-06-2005, 01:18 AM   #22
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Any change to aqueous spirit?  Don't know whether to upgrade this to ad3 or not, especially if there will be a defense cap anyway...  Also my howling haze is at ad1.. doesn't sound like I should waste a rare on upgrading it either.  Advice?  Thanks!
 
Edit, just read this written by a druid:
the group cures do not scale with level, nor do the instant cures (sylvan wind for druids). So on 50 none of the training group cures work. This is probly a bug.
 
Hope I find out before I /respect lol.    SMILEY

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Old 08-06-2005, 01:20 AM   #23
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I curious if there were any changes to our combat rezz spells ... irks me that in raids that any other rezzing class outside of a healer can rezz for more and recast it more often.
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Old 08-06-2005, 01:23 AM   #24
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Aqueous Spirit . . . no longer worth casting IMO.  Defense is not the same as it used to be.  Level of attacker vs level of defender is the primary comparison used to determine whether a blow lands or misses.  Mobs lower level than you miss more, mobs higher than you miss less. I've not investigated the combat rez spells, and didn't really consider them a terribly high priority in light of all the other problems we had.  Sorry. Edit:  Yes, the group cures are a known . . . issue.  The single target cures "theoretically" work, but the group cures no only fail to cure, they are ALL on the same timer now. This leads me to believe that Group Cure will be turned into a line shared by all Priests.

Message Edited by Banditman on 08-05-2005 05:25 PM

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Old 08-06-2005, 02:07 AM   #25
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Banditman wrote:

-- snip -- ~Same thing with our wards as with our heals, except they mitigate now, lower overall hp buffer but also lower power cost. I suppose the current thinking is that our Wards need less power because they are always perfectly efficient.  I'm not sure I buy that yet, I'm still forming an opinion. -- snip --

A question in regards to this... - does a ward, like ancestral ward, apply a heal at the end, if it expires? If so, then I would say our wards have innate efficiency and should be accounted for in the power to hp ratio.  Last time I checked, it did not, but I figured it's a bug(since the description says it does) and would be fixed. This is why when you used the phrase "always perfectly efficient", I too, don't exactly buy that just yet.  I know those weren't your words, and I'm more or less agreeing with your hesitation.
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Old 08-06-2005, 03:37 AM   #26
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Ok, let me answer your question and explain a bit.

To answer directly, no, our Wards do NOT apply a heal at the end.  Defilers do have some Wards with strange on break reactive procs which apply damage to the breaker of the Ward and a heal to the party.

Back in beta - original Beta not DoF - our Wards did apply a heal when they expired.  However, it was thought that this particular mechanic was overpowered and removed.  I'd still debate that point, but it's irrelevant.  The remnants of that mechanic remained, as no one bothered to edit the descriptions of each Ward to remove the indications of the mechanic.

Now, on to "always perfectly efficient".

A Ward is always perfectly efficient because it holds exactly the required amount of healing - every time.

This is easier to explain with examples, so let me demonstrate that way.

Take a Ward with 1000 HP of power, a Reactive with 5 x 200 healing and a Regen with 10 x 100 (every 3 seconds) healing.  "Theoretically" those three heals are equal.  Now we need a mob and 30 seconds of time.

The mob hits as follows:  -50 @ 2 seconds, -250 @ 5 seconds, -50 @ 8 seconds, -50 @ 10 seconds, -50 @ 12 seconds, -50 @ 14 seconds, -100 @ 18 seconds, -150 @ 21 seconds, -100 @ 25 seconds, -150 @ 29 seconds.

In total, this mob just did 1000 points of damage, and since each heal is "theoretically" the same, the tank should end up at full HP right?

Well, with a reactive, you have 200 per trigger 5 times.  So it would go like this:  -50+200=0, -250+200=-50, -50-50+200=0, -50+200=0, -50+200=0 . . . but now the triggers are used up.  So the remaining damage goes unchecked:  -50-100-150-100-150 = -550 total HP.

So, now for a Regen:  -50 @ 2 seconds then +100 @ 3 seconds and back to zero.  -250 at 5 seconds, -150 @ 6 seconds, -200 @ 8 seconds, -100 @ 9 seconds, -150 @ 10 seconds, -100 @ 12 seconds, -150 @ 14 seconds, -50 @ 15 seconds, -50 @ 18 seconds, -100 @ 21 seconds, 0 @ 24 seconds, -100 @ 25 seconds, 0 @ 27 seconds -150 @ 29 seconds and finally @ -50 after 30 seconds.

With a Ward, the numbers are simple.  There's 1000 points of damage coming in 30 seconds, and the Ward absorbs it all.

 

This is a very simple example and not very real world at all.  It also gives Clerics no credit for skillful play.  A wise Cleric knows that his Reactives can be very inefficient if used improperly and will allow the tank to drop down into the the yellow before applying a Reactive.  Thus, in the example above, a wise Cleric would ignore the first 5 or 6 hits and THEN apply his Reactive.

However, the point remains that no matter when a Ward is applied, it is always exactly the right size.

 

Excellent question though and a good piece of information for Mystics to keep in their heads.

 

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Old 08-06-2005, 06:16 AM   #27
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Banditman wrote:
Yes, it did.  And it's becoming a REAL issue for Druids in particular who had some HoT components attached to help supplement a lower intial value to the direct.  The initial data I have from Furies in particular is quite alarming.




Only wardens can be alarmed by the removal of the secondary regen component because furies did not have this effect on their heals (they got buffs instead). I have yet to find any good info from the warden side with the changes though and the removal of the secondary effects scares the hell outta me =/
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Old 08-06-2005, 02:04 PM   #28
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What will happen with aggro when its assigned to the priest?
 
Regen and reactive have a max value of hate capped at the value of the tick.
 
Wards have no such cap. If the tank takes a big hit or nuke on those raid mobs, thats a helluva lot of potential agro. Hmmmm.
 
Whats my faith in SoE's ability not to screw this up?
 
 
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Old 08-06-2005, 02:31 PM   #29
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Message Edited by FelixDomesticus on 08-06-2005 01:37 PM

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Old 08-06-2005, 02:33 PM   #30
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"Yes, the group cures are a known . . . issue.  The single target cures "theoretically" work, but the group cures no only fail to cure, they are ALL on the same timer now." Same timer? That makes using them pretty hard. Many mobs use several dots and other abilities and if we cannot counter them all it means bad problems.
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