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Old 08-17-2008, 12:03 PM   #1
Baccalarium

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Abstract:Edit:I noticed a long string of casts that didn't crit and drew the wrong conclusion from them,  Most of the data and calculations are otherwise fine though.I'm noting that what I thought was a 50% cap only for +heal items is actually a cap on both plus heal and +crit. Further it seems there might be a bug that if a crit would take you over the cap, the crit doesn't happen rather than capping at the amount.Assumptions:There is a cap at 50% of the spell value on plus heal items. My Ancient Aegis has a heal of 1838hp with no gear bonuses. (Naked Barbarian at the bank, scary) The cap on Ancient Aegis should be 150% of 1838hp or 2757hp. Wards get a flat 15% benefit of the base value for when they crit. My Ancient Aegis with the 1838hp ward amound with no gear bonuses should crit for an additional 276hp of ward when it crits. The crit amount is regardless of the +heal items. Similarly my Umbral Warding with nude ward amount of 3854hp, should crit for and additiona 578hp (15% of 3854) and should cap at 5781hp(150% of 3854).I have +565hp in +heal items as shown in the difference in the spell descriptions nude and geared. I don't remember swapping gear out for these fights, but parse looks like I had an additional +130 to heals or +695 total to heals. Outside the raid the persona screen says I have a 22% heal crit.I would expect:4549hp Umbral Warding non crit ward: 3854(base) + 695(+heal) 5127hp Umbral Warding crit ward : 3854(base) + 695(+heal) +578(crit) 2533hp Ancient Aegis non crit ward:1838(base) + 695(+heal)2757hp Ancient Aegis crit ward: 1838(base) + 695(+heal) + 276(crit)EditSMILEY Last Ancient Aeigis was errantly: MIN(1838(base) + 695(+heal) + 276(crit),2757(cap))  cap speculation disproved)The Experiment:I am looking at a 6min log (includes a gap betwen fights) with mobs that hit through wards fairly easily. (Shard of Hate 2 group trash run) I'm essentially debuffing and warding and sometimes auto-attacking during these fights. This makes these good logs for looking at my abilities in a nearly pure healer roll. Umbral Warding:Umbral Warding behaves pretty much as expected. It was cast 7 times. The umbral ward broke after absorbing 4549hp of damage 4 times, and broke after absorbing 5127 points of damage 3 times. This agrees with my expected results though the crit rate of 3 out of 7 seems a bit high, but 7 is a small sample.Note that ACT records the 25 hits against the ward, none of which are recorded as crits. I can only get this information by summing those hits up untill seeing that the ward was broken through.Aegis:Ancient Aegis however has much different result than I would have expected. The Ancient Aegis ward broke after absorbing 2533 points of damage 13 times. It failed to break before being recast 8 times. On the times Ancient Aegis did not break before being recast, it never absorbed more than 2533 hp. I've definitly seen Ancient Aegis crit with this type of examination in the past.Now this is odd in that pior to this examination I would have expected crits to have absorbed 2809hp. Even if the cap came into play I would have expected some crit wards of 2757hp wards at the cap.  Edit:  Though odd, its also possible I was just unlucky with 22% crit rate and none of those 13 casts actually critted.Notes from the log file examination:Healed 242hp/s 89327hp50% 44467hp Ancient Aegis38% 33577hp Umbral Warding 5% 4522hp Runic Armor 3% 2644hp Rejuvenation 2% 1635hp Shelter 1% 1313hp Overloaded Heal 1% 954hp healing wave 1% 215hp Warding Balm

117 heals 4 crits listed.

U:481+4068 dnA:2533 dnA:2393+140 dnA:2434+99 dnA:2446+87 dnU:1510+3039 dnA:25+361+455+1508U:302+562+692+1914+1079 dnA:908A:2348+185 dnA:2533 dnA:2533 dnA:1531U:1608+1229+436+562+638+494+160 dnU:4118+431 dnA:2533 dnA:954+1579dnA:2533dnU:2032+2852+244 dnA:910A:1691+842 dnA:1294+1239 dnA:1739A:1405A:1110+1423dnA:1555U:562+1624+2320+6 21 dnA:1141

Fluffy (Aura of Warding)520,520,460,520,520,392+128,520,520,520,52 0,520,520,520,520,520,520,520,520,520,520,520,520, 520,

Umbral:4549,4549,4549,5127,4549,5128,51273 crits out of 7 casts, crit amount = 578

Aegis:2533,2533,2533,2533,?,?,2533,2533,2533,?,253 3,2533,2533,?,2533,2533,?,?,2533,?,?no crits in 13 casts that could be summed up.

Rejuvenation:139,167,2028(crit),310(crit)

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Old 08-18-2008, 03:22 PM   #2
Banditman

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You may be on to something here, but you've got a lot of unknowns yet that need to get figured out.Did you have Coercive Healing ?Was there a Paladin in the raid ?Did you have a Bard with DKtM in your group ?Did you have an Enchanter with Empathic Aura in your group ?All of these can factor into heal caps and crit %'s.
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Old 08-18-2008, 07:19 PM   #3
Baccalarium

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No Bards,  No Chanters, Plentiful Pallies though.3 Conj2 Necro2 Pallys2 GuardsMonkBrigInqFuryTempMystic(Emm,  noone would claim we were trying to construct an ideal raid. lol)
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:34 AM   #4
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The Pally is where your extra +Heal came from.  Well, one of them anyway.  They have a raid wide.Ok, so we need to figure this out.First, we need to determine whether or not +Heal works in the same manner that +Spell does.  For +Spell, the value that is added to all AE spells is 1/3 of the total +Spell on the player.  This is easy to figure.  Just drop a couple +Heal items on and watch your Group Ward.  It either increases by the amount of the +Heal or it increases by 1/3 of the applied amount.There is actually no need to get hit to test this, but without some people helping to increase your crit percent, it will take time to get the data.Basically, you just stand around casting your Ward and inspect it.  Eventually, even with a low crit number, you SHOULD see it crit upon inspection.  When you're under the gun, you don't really have time to inspect your Wards and write down their value.  However, something like this can be done anytime.So, the hypothesis is that crits cannot force your Ward to exceed base x 1.15 . . . We need to collect as many data points on this as possible, so we'll need some other folks to help us.  Let's test as follows:1.  We need the base value of Ancient Aegis and Umbral Warding.  This value must include NO EQUIPMENT.  Watch out for your gear that might have focus effects on it as well as raw +Heal.2.  We need your crit percentage and +Heal amount.  Again, watch for focus effects that might not show up in your UI.3.  Start casting spells and write down the value you get.  Fifty data points on each spell from six of us should be enough to start to form a good picture.We definitely need people who have high amounts of +Heal to take part.  I personally do not have a lot, but we especially do need those data points to contrast with people who have less +Heal.  If this hypothesis is correct, it's those high amounts of +Heal that are causing the issue.  I'll try to get my 100 casts done this evening and post the results tomorrow.
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Old 08-19-2008, 09:07 PM   #5
Baccalarium

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Hmm I must be crazy:No gear:19%crit Umbral Ward Master I 3854hp2x cast at 443218xcast at 3854115% of 3854, = 443215% of 3854=578Ancient Aegis Adept 3 1838hp4x at 211316xat 1838115% of 1838=2113.715% of 1838=275.7Scacred Aegis Master 2 1394hp5xat160415xat1394115%of1394=160315%of1394=20 9With Gear:22%critUmbral Ward Master I 4424hp4x at500216xat44244424+578=5002Ancient Aegis Adept 3 2408hp2x268318x24082408+275=2683Sacred Aegis M2 1964hp5x at 217315xat19641964+209=2173Thanks for the idea for testing,   much easier than summing up entries in log file.  And going back to Sacred Aegis I easy blow through the 50% cap with the combination of the heal and crit.   So my run of 13 in the raid perhaps just really bad  luck.Thanks for your consideration.  Sorry to bother.
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Old 08-21-2008, 06:55 AM   #6
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I did a small amount of testing on this myself and I think it's pretty clear how this works.For simplicity let's just assume a basic single target ward, and we're only considering heal crit and +heals.Base ward (naked) for X points.Heal crit works on this naked base value, so if you crit you get X*1.15+Heal is then added to this, and capped at this value * 1.5ie if you don't crit, the maximum ward will be X*1.5if you crit then the maximum ward will be X*1.15*1.5So, on my 80 mystic with gear giving +738 heals, the lower tiers are maxed on +heal, and so the first ward (Spectral Ward M2) looks like this:Base naked value: 257Naked crit: 296 (=257*1.15)With gear, non-crit: 386 (=257*1.5)With gear, crit: 444 (=257*1.15*1.5 roughly)Personally I think heal crit stinks that it's so weak (compared with damage crits) - if you have obscene +heal (or no +heal) then it'll give you +15%.  In between it's less - at 80 with ancient aegis M1:Base naked value: 2100Naked crit: 2415With gear, non-crit: 2838With gear, crit: 3153So this is basically 11% bonus for a crit.  I need +9% heal crit to effectively boost my healing by +1% which ... well seems weak.  Given this I'm still focussing on maxing out my +heals on the primary single target ward and then next looking at casting speed rather than heal crit...I guess wards lose out as well because there is no spread - crit works better if you've got a range of values since the crit works off the max.  Since wards are constant they get no bonus from that.
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