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Old 09-14-2007, 12:26 PM   #1
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So, I dont remember seeing this in any of the recent patch notes....and though maybe I was possiably bugged....but after testing it a few times...our wish has FINALY come true!!!  Am I dreaming...can someone please pinch me....

THE ROOT FROM POtM HAS BEEN REMOVED!!!   I REPEAT, THE ROOT FROM POtM HAS BEEN REMOVED!!!!!

I was casting POtM in raid last night when I first noticed this...I normaly know when to move in to auto attack because I will hold down the W key to move forward as soon as the root breaks while im still casting...funny thing was, as soon as I cast POtM I would be moving instantly.

This is the best fix ever, Thank you SO MUCH to the devs that fixed this!!!!

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Old 09-14-2007, 12:47 PM   #2
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Thats awesome
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:54 PM   #3
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Guess that there's going to be a whole mess of new Bards rolling out tonight ... SMILEY
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Old 09-14-2007, 01:50 PM   #4
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Strums wrote:

So, I dont remember seeing this in any of the recent patch notes....and though maybe I was possiably bugged....but after testing it a few times...our wish has FINALY come true!!!  Am I dreaming...can someone please pinch me....

THE ROOT FROM POtM HAS BEEN REMOVED!!!   I REPEAT, THE ROOT FROM POtM HAS BEEN REMOVED!!!!!

I was casting POtM in raid last night when I first noticed this...I normaly know when to move in to auto attack because I will hold down the W key to move forward as soon as the root breaks while im still casting...funny thing was, as soon as I cast POtM I would be moving instantly.

This is the best fix ever, Thank you SO MUCH to the devs that fixed this!!!!

Root being removed is hardly what I'd call a dream come true. If they took the daze off, THEN it'd be a dream come true.

It's a nice change, but not enough.

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Old 09-14-2007, 04:09 PM   #5
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[email protected] wrote:
Strums wrote:

So, I dont remember seeing this in any of the recent patch notes....and though maybe I was possiably bugged....but after testing it a few times...our wish has FINALY come true!!!  Am I dreaming...can someone please pinch me....

THE ROOT FROM POtM HAS BEEN REMOVED!!!   I REPEAT, THE ROOT FROM POtM HAS BEEN REMOVED!!!!!

I was casting POtM in raid last night when I first noticed this...I normaly know when to move in to auto attack because I will hold down the W key to move forward as soon as the root breaks while im still casting...funny thing was, as soon as I cast POtM I would be moving instantly.

This is the best fix ever, Thank you SO MUCH to the devs that fixed this!!!!

Root being removed is hardly what I'd call a dream come true. If they took the daze off, THEN it'd be a dream come true.

It's a nice change, but not enough.

I agree - the only thing this really affects is so you can assure you are still in range to cast all your spells to take advantage of the buff in general.  not being able to auto attack still puts us at a disadvantage over the dirge counterpart.

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Old 09-14-2007, 05:33 PM   #6
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they also need to change when the spell starts to refresh.  right now it starts after the 20-30 secs of pom ends.  cob on the other hand will start right after the inital spell is cast, so it will up rdy to be used much faster than pom.  if the dirge has thier 3 eof set bonus they can cast almost nonstop.
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Old 09-17-2007, 01:57 PM   #7
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The root change is almost completely meaningless to any raiding troubadors. Only thing this will help is if you get knocked back while percision is up, you don't have to cancel it to run back to where you are supposed to be. What would really be a OMG THIS IS A 1337 FIX would be if they removed the daze porition of percision.

Generally I'm doing 33%ish zonewide DPS from auto-attacking. So basicly what Sony is wanting is for 30 seconds they want me to give up about 1/3 of my dps so I can inflate other people's parses. Dirges have no negative effects on theirs, which in my opinion is completely [Removed for Content]. Not sure why the developers are so hell bent on preventing us from auto-attacking during percision, and it probably has something to do with them not realizing that they are crippling the dps of the troubador while the spell is up.

I've tried several times to get in contact with aeralik to see exactly why troubs have a negative effect but dirges don't, but he never seems to answer PMs, go figure, unless it reads ****DUPE DISCOVERED**** it's not going to get read, or is pushed aside for such trivial things as "omgz this shade of black on XXXXX armor looks so0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0 ugly!!!!!" But really, what can you expect, it's sony after all.

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Old 09-17-2007, 03:17 PM   #8
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Troubs get the benefit to Jester Cap themselves to hasten damage and reduce the reuse on critical spells, an ability dirges can't match. Developers look at each class as a whole rather than comparing one set of abilities to each other.
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Old 09-17-2007, 04:05 PM   #9
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Uh I shouldn't have to cast Jester's Cap on myself to make up for them poorly making up a spell. And if you are going to take the developers point of view on this... Why is a troubador generally only wanted by 1 group in a raid rather than 3 like dirges?

Also, its kind of funny that a lot of dirges admit that percision shouldn't have a daze effect tacked on to it..

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Old 09-17-2007, 05:45 PM   #10
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Developers are most likely trying to avoid turning bards into a complete dps gods with potm. The group utility provided by bards are to make up for the loss in the dps we provide in combat or raids. Keep in mind how ridiculous EQ1 bards were, the Devs are trying to avoid another situation like that from happening. Also Jesters cap is a buff available to be casted on anyone in the raid. It's an extremely powerful spell that dirges can't match with their spell lines.
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Old 09-17-2007, 06:38 PM   #11
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I don't know what you guys are all uppity about. Never really had a problem with being rooted. It is the daze that makes the spell [Removed for Content] and the reason I don't cast it 90% of the time.
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Old 09-17-2007, 06:57 PM   #12
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SleepingSleeping wrote:
Also Jesters cap is a buff available to be casted on anyone in the raid. It's an extremely powerful spell that dirges can't match with their spell lines.
That is simply not true. Jester's Cap is a cool ability, but it is way overrated. It generally won't make a huge differen ce, the passive buffs of a Troub generally bring m ore to the raid. Even more so after the fix to it (LU3SMILEY.
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Old 09-17-2007, 07:44 PM   #13
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SleepingSleeping wrote:
Developers are most likely trying to avoid turning bards into a complete dps gods with potm. The group utility provided by bards are to make up for the loss in the dps we provide in combat or raids. Keep in mind how ridiculous EQ1 bards were, the Devs are trying to avoid another situation like that from happening. Also Jesters cap is a buff available to be casted on anyone in the raid. It's an extremely powerful spell that dirges can't match with their spell lines.
Well lets look at other classes that get a JC like ability... Shamans for one with AA's can get Ritual of Alacrity, sure it doesn't give the 50% reuse reduction but what it does give it 33% reuse reduction, 33% faster cast time, and 33% faster recovery time. This makes the spell JUST as powerful as Jester's Cap and without the 2 minute immunity and its coming from a healer class... Also, take into consideration Time Compression... Illusionist don't get anything that [Removed for Content] their dps to give an ally improved reuse speed, casting speed, and recovery speed.
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Old 09-17-2007, 08:21 PM   #14
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[email protected] wrote:
SleepingSleeping wrote:
Developers are most likely trying to avoid turning bards into a complete dps gods with potm. The group utility provided by bards are to make up for the loss in the dps we provide in combat or raids. Keep in mind how ridiculous EQ1 bards were, the Devs are trying to avoid another situation like that from happening. Also Jesters cap is a buff available to be casted on anyone in the raid. It's an extremely powerful spell that dirges can't match with their spell lines.
Well lets look at other classes that get a JC like ability... Shamans for one with AA's can get Ritual of Alacrity, sure it doesn't give the 50% reuse reduction but what it does give it 33% reuse reduction, 33% faster cast time, and 33% faster recovery time. This makes the spell JUST as powerful as Jester's Cap and without the 2 minute immunity and its coming from a healer class... Also, take into consideration Time Compression... Illusionist don't get anything that [Removed for Content] their dps to give an ally improved reuse speed, casting speed, and recovery speed.
Shamans are unable to cast RoA on themselves like Troubadours can =(Time compression is certainly a powerful spell but can't be cast on those outside your group. And if you'd like to cast it to multiple people within your group... you'd be sacrificing time to dps.Each ability has its benefits and disadvantages, unfortunately trying to decide when said ability is "balanced" is quite difficult when you try to measure all the benefits/disadvantages.Dirges certainly have their strong points too, don't get me wrong... practically required everywhere and their rez alone can be a raid saver.
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Old 09-17-2007, 09:05 PM   #15
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Unless an encounter has atleast 3 mbos in it, I wont cast Precision. DPS is LOWERED against a single/duo target by casting it.

CoB on the other hand ALWAYS increases DPS... always.

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Old 09-18-2007, 02:41 AM   #16
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PoTM has plenty of benefits that separates it from CoB. CoB requires a melee strike to trigger the ability, while PoTM simply requires a hostile spell. This means PoTM proc's off attack spells but also debuffs as well. If you're healer is debuffing the mob even he/she is benefiting from PoTM while CoB would do little to nothing for them.Both Cob and PoTM are designed with the group in mind rather than the bard themselves. CoB will benefit in single or small numbered encounter, but match the dps to a good ae encounter with potm. Each has their advantages and disadvantages.
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Old 09-18-2007, 07:06 AM   #17
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CoB also adds haste and an interupt, and don't forget the insane three piece bonus.Of course PotM has it's benefits , but it harms the troub. Where's the fun in that?Momentary SentimentSavanteDeath MarchFrigid Gift ( mini PotM, but with a brutal slow on each proc )Fae PyreCacophony of bladesExhaltation of the UntamedNone of these has a negative effect on the caster so why PotM?Wardens have a  group buff that has a 3 min duration , 30 sec recast , adds as much defense as the troub's balletic avoidance, and provides a 20% chance to stun and knockback any attacker for 2.5 seconds.As compensation for this great skill they are rooted.I really can't see why the root and daze was not taken away from PotM back in DoF.
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Old 09-18-2007, 10:20 AM   #18
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Just curious, what Warden buff are you referring to?

Thanks

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Old 09-18-2007, 10:56 AM   #19
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Dust/Sandstorm, rarely cast by me since 1. I'm never in the MT group and 2. Our guild retired all our wardens  SMILEY
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:38 PM   #20
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SleepingSleeping wrote:
PoTM has plenty of benefits that separates it from CoB. CoB requires a melee strike to trigger the ability, while PoTM simply requires a hostile spell. This means PoTM proc's off attack spells but also debuffs as well. If you're healer is debuffing the mob even he/she is benefiting from PoTM while CoB would do little to nothing for them.Both Cob and PoTM are designed with the group in mind rather than the bard themselves. CoB will benefit in single or small numbered encounter, but match the dps to a good ae encounter with potm. Each has their advantages and disadvantages.

Dirges do not lose 30% of their DPS when they cast CoB. Troubs do, on single targets its a MUCH larger loss and group DPS in general is lowered.

Assume single target. CoB in a melee DPS group will proc from each scout 1-2 times per second. 5-10 procs per second group wide. Now lets look at PotM. Procs off hostile spells. Spells have CAST TIMES that are alot bigger than 0.5 seconds. Warlock/wizards have cast times of 3-5seconds. So for each warlock you're looking at 1 proc every 4 seconds (guessing, but it'd be somewhere around that) which gives us 0.25 procs per second from wiz-locks. Based on my game-play with necros/conjies they'll be proccing around 1 every 2 seconds, so thats another 0.5 procs per second from each of them. Best case scenario for the troub is one proc every 2 seconds, and that is being optimistic. so 0.5 procs per second for the troub, and lets assume that the furys don't run out of damage spells to cast after the first 10 seconds. let's say that they proc Precision once every 3 seconds. Our mage group is 2 wiz-locks, one conj, one necro, the troub and the fury. 0.25*2 + 0.5*2 + 0.5 + 0.3 = 2.3 procs per second. Across the entire mage group.

CoB = 5-10 procs every second against a single target.PotM = 2.3 procs per second against a single target.

And yet PotM still carries the daze? Why?

EDIT: CoB procs off melee CAs as well as auto-attack, so you can bump the figure for CoB procs per second up by atleast 5.

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Old 09-19-2007, 06:52 PM   #21
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[email protected] wrote:
SleepingSleeping wrote:
PoTM has plenty of benefits that separates it from CoB. CoB requires a melee strike to trigger the ability, while PoTM simply requires a hostile spell. This means PoTM proc's off attack spells but also debuffs as well. If you're healer is debuffing the mob even he/she is benefiting from PoTM while CoB would do little to nothing for them.Both Cob and PoTM are designed with the group in mind rather than the bard themselves. CoB will benefit in single or small numbered encounter, but match the dps to a good ae encounter with potm. Each has their advantages and disadvantages.

Dirges do not lose 30% of their DPS when they cast CoB. Troubs do, on single targets its a MUCH larger loss and group DPS in general is lowered.

Assume single target. CoB in a melee DPS group will proc from each scout 1-2 times per second. 5-10 procs per second group wide. Now lets look at PotM. Procs off hostile spells. Spells have CAST TIMES that are alot bigger than 0.5 seconds. Warlock/wizards have cast times of 3-5seconds. So for each warlock you're looking at 1 proc every 4 seconds (guessing, but it'd be somewhere around that) which gives us 0.25 procs per second from wiz-locks. Based on my game-play with necros/conjies they'll be proccing around 1 every 2 seconds, so thats another 0.5 procs per second from each of them. Best case scenario for the troub is one proc every 2 seconds, and that is being optimistic. so 0.5 procs per second for the troub, and lets assume that the furys don't run out of damage spells to cast after the first 10 seconds. let's say that they proc Precision once every 3 seconds. Our mage group is 2 wiz-locks, one conj, one necro, the troub and the fury. 0.25*2 + 0.5*2 + 0.5 + 0.3 = 2.3 procs per second. Across the entire mage group.

CoB = 5-10 procs every second against a single target.PotM = 2.3 procs per second against a single target.

And yet PotM still carries the daze? Why?

EDIT: CoB procs off melee CAs as well as auto-attack, so you can bump the figure for CoB procs per second up by atleast 5.

You made a very good point with the mechanics of comparing CoB and PoTM, but again I hate to say it...the Devs most likely look at the class as a whole rather than comparing two set abilities. Troubs are capable of casting Jester's Cap on anyone within the raid including themselves while dirges have no buff remotely similar to this ability. Dev's probably seek to balance classes as a whole rather than comparing each ability to its counterpart.Edit: Messed up on quoting =(
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Old 09-19-2007, 09:56 PM   #22
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SleepingSleeping wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
SleepingSleeping wrote:
PoTM has plenty of benefits that separates it from CoB. CoB requires a melee strike to trigger the ability, while PoTM simply requires a hostile spell. This means PoTM proc's off attack spells but also debuffs as well. If you're healer is debuffing the mob even he/she is benefiting from PoTM while CoB would do little to nothing for them.Both Cob and PoTM are designed with the group in mind rather than the bard themselves. CoB will benefit in single or small numbered encounter, but match the dps to a good ae encounter with potm. Each has their advantages and disadvantages.

Dirges do not lose 30% of their DPS when they cast CoB. Troubs do, on single targets its a MUCH larger loss and group DPS in general is lowered.

Assume single target. CoB in a melee DPS group will proc from each scout 1-2 times per second. 5-10 procs per second group wide. Now lets look at PotM. Procs off hostile spells. Spells have CAST TIMES that are alot bigger than 0.5 seconds. Warlock/wizards have cast times of 3-5seconds. So for each warlock you're looking at 1 proc every 4 seconds (guessing, but it'd be somewhere around that) which gives us 0.25 procs per second from wiz-locks. Based on my game-play with necros/conjies they'll be proccing around 1 every 2 seconds, so thats another 0.5 procs per second from each of them. Best case scenario for the troub is one proc every 2 seconds, and that is being optimistic. so 0.5 procs per second for the troub, and lets assume that the furys don't run out of damage spells to cast after the first 10 seconds. let's say that they proc Precision once every 3 seconds. Our mage group is 2 wiz-locks, one conj, one necro, the troub and the fury. 0.25*2 + 0.5*2 + 0.5 + 0.3 = 2.3 procs per second. Across the entire mage group.

CoB = 5-10 procs every second against a single target.PotM = 2.3 procs per second against a single target.

And yet PotM still carries the daze? Why?

EDIT: CoB procs off melee CAs as well as auto-attack, so you can bump the figure for CoB procs per second up by atleast 5.

You made a very good point with the mechanics of comparing CoB and PoTM, but again I hate to say it...the Devs most likely look at the class as a whole rather than comparing two set abilities. Troubs are capable of casting Jester's Cap on anyone within the raid including themselves while dirges have no buff remotely similar to this ability. Dev's probably seek to balance classes as a whole rather than comparing each ability to its counterpart.Edit: Messed up on quoting =(

And you are ignoring the leg up the dirges already had on us...

Dirges

- able to synergize AA and other buffs to maximize melee (CoB w/ better haste than troub buff & no power cost necessary to do dmg (autoattack), dps buff - groupwide, melee proc, double attack AA, + skill group buff, luck line for procs) 

- reuse on CoB begins when cast vs PotM reuse beginning after spell ends and is augmented significantly via 3 piece set bonus

- able to rez single and group across raid

- able to heal per a HP cost across group and raid

- GOOD AA end abilities in their EoF AA lines (luck line and degradate)

- Better debuffs (includes interrupt from CoB) at a lower cost

- percussion of stone OWNS requiem of reflection

- hate buff castable on anyone

- comparable personal dps to troub 

Troubs:

- jester's cap (recently nerfed with last update, used to get a full halving of recast if a spell was cast towards the end of jcap) 

- alin's dehate for non fighters

- mez (non issue in raids)

- more int on self buff

- provides stamina over agility on our group stat buff (good for low HP classes)

- arcane resitance buff (pwns noxious in this expansion)

Casting Jcap on the troub is NOTHING compared to CoB. 

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Old 09-20-2007, 03:14 AM   #23
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Here is the bottom line of the whole Percison daze thing...SOE gave us an auto-attack damage boost to match that of rogues, yet, they keep a daze on one of our 2 temporary buffs. Doesn't that seem counter intuitive at all to you? It sure sounds completely r - tarded to me.  Our bard counterpart's equivilent spell has NO NEGATIVE EFFECTS, and gives them haste to do more damage with, while we cast PoM and sit there like dumb [Removed for Content] with our thumb up our [Removed for Content] not auto-attacking.

And for a little side note as to provide some sort of insight why I'm fed up with the developers, I asked Aeralik why Percision was the way it was (with daze), the response I got from him was "BUFF BOT FTW", and that is all...

So there you go, developers being complete [Removed for Content] about serious questions to avoid defending something that they know is completely in their wrong and counter intuitive.

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Old 09-21-2007, 08:54 PM   #24
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Also the Dirge set bonus at 3 pieces allows them to cast CoB much more frequently. The troubs get no bonus at all related to PoTM on our set.

Another log on the fire...

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Old 09-24-2007, 08:12 AM   #25
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[email protected] wrote:

I asked Aeralik why Percision was the way it was (with daze), the response I got from him was "BUFF BOT FTW", and that is all...

Please be kidding...?
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Old 09-24-2007, 10:24 AM   #26
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I'd actually rather be Rooted, then Dazed. When I'm Rooted, I can still do things, like sing nuke songs at range, or fire off bowshots, or debuff, or what-have-you.

When I'm Dazed, I can do nothing.

IOW, the "fix" to PotM is entirely backwards.

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Old 09-24-2007, 11:06 AM   #27
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Actually Wardens have two spells like this: Sandstorm and Hierophantic Advent. Sandstorm isn't a very good comparison as it is basically a rooted 3 minute defense buff but doesn't amount to much. HA is the stunned uber one that gives health and power to the target, and you can not do anything else.Templars have one: Focused Intercession, a powerful HoT during which I am completely stunned and can only use my Manastone. Our Warden and I have worked out a system of mutual coverage for using our rooted/stunned spells. Once we learned how to use these to advantage, we can't wait for them to come back up so we can use them again... Instead of grinding my teeth in impatience I use the time to breathe, Manastone, and plan my next step. I think the idea is that these incredibly powerful spells require total concentration, so you briefly sacrifice EVERYTHING for a fight-saving maneuver. And, if you work with your team members to mesh your performances you often see ways in which the classes interact to form a better whole. It seems to me the whole point of playing in a group is to complement/augment each other and defeat the enemy. I'm afraid I don't much hold with spell vs spell class competition. There may well be a legitimate gripe but the "Johnny's got one" argument is particularly weak.
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Old 09-24-2007, 08:09 PM   #28
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[email protected] wrote:
[email protected] wrote:

I asked Aeralik why Percision was the way it was (with daze), the response I got from him was "BUFF BOT FTW", and that is all...

Please be kidding...?

I wish I was...

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Old 09-24-2007, 09:10 PM   #29
Mildavyn

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Liyle wrote:
Actually Wardens have two spells like this: Sandstorm and Hierophantic Advent.

Yes, and one day when a warden is a type of bard, I'll care. Until then you're comparing apples and eggs. They aren't even both fruit!

As it stands, CoB is ALWAYS a DPS increase and by my rough calculations, will add more damage against any amount of targets up to 4. We need 4 targets to equal the damage added by CoB. Thats only if we don't have another scout in the group as well. In which case we'd need 5 targets. Ofcourse the Troubador himself can lose anywhere from 200 DPS to 1k, depending on how good his gear is. I used to cast PotM every time it was up, now...? I don't bother unless there are atleast 3 targets. Remove the daze and I'll cast it every time it's up. At that point it'd be free damage... even if it would STILL not equal the damage added by COB unless there were 4-5 targets.

We got screwed, plain and simple.

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Old 09-24-2007, 10:39 PM   #30
liveja

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Liyle wrote:
Actually Wardens have two spells like this: Sandstorm and Hierophantic Advent. Sandstorm isn't a very good comparison as it is basically a rooted 3 minute defense buff but doesn't amount to much. HA is the stunned uber one that gives health and power to the target, and you can not do anything else..

HA is mostly meant to be used out-of-combat, so far as I can tell.

PotM is meant to be used in-combat.

BIG difference.

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