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Old 11-25-2006, 02:12 AM   #1
Thatdumbg

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This is an in-depth comparison between fully mastered, max level, max achievement Shaman in different raid groups. Keep in mind, I am NOT a mystic who believes that mystics and defilers should be even in a main tank group. I'm just sharing most of my research into the class particulars. I would never suggest Mystics or Defilers have no place on a raid... raiding without either shaman is raiding with one hand behind your back when it comes to debuffs. I think the general consensus is that we are nearly balanced in mob debuffing capacity (except, with the new achievements, defilers get a considerable advantage on their debuffs: they are resisted less, do it quicker, and do it for less power then mystics), and healing capabilities (Defilers say "I want Torpor!". Mystics say "I want Curse of Shielding!"), other then what I've outlined below (mainly Prophetic Aegis). I also will not focus on DPS; as, in a raid, I am of the firm believe that role-reinforcement as a general rule is vastly superior to role-diversification (when speaking of Healing vs. DPS).Also, I discuss some of my thoughts/questions concerning the Shaman class at the end of the post. It can by nature only be one-sided, as I am obviously a Mystic (although, I have experience with a Defiler, and I'd like to think, some small expertise). This thread is not intended to bash any class, start any (non-constructive) arguments or bickering, flame anything. So please, do your best to keep this discussion constructive.Bear with me, as this is long, somewhat verbose, and I can't verify that I was fully sane writing it. I'm definitely feeling a tad bit insane after it's done. Also, it was wrrten in notepad, so forgive my formatting... I'll try to spruce it up some later. I guess we'll get started.IN A MAIN TANK GROUP (including overall description of spells):Group Buffs:M- Runic Aegis- A regenerating 151-point group ward against physical damage.vs.D- Abbhorent Shroud- A regenerating 422-point group ward agaisnt non-physical damage (enhanced to rank5).Winner: DefilerM- Spirit of the Mammoth- 102 Stamina for the group (which, for a priest at 360 stamina, results in 273HP)vs.D- Rapactiy- 666 Health for the groupWinner: Defiler (unless your average stamina in the main tank group is oh, about  4).Single Target Buffs:M- Foretelling- 804H, 721P on 1 other target depending on concentration/needed buffsvs.D- Portent- 964H, 481P on 1 other target depending on concentration/needed buffsNotes/Mitigating Factors: The single-target concentration buff is usually cast on yourself and the Main Tank. If you drop your mit buff, you can place these buffs on one other individual as well. However, dropping any other buff results in HP loss for the MT, so it isn't commonly done. I personally think that the regenerating wards on the mit buffs bring more to the table for the MT then giving someone else another few hundred health/power a vast majority of the time.Winner:On the MT: DefilerOn others (only if/when possible): MysticM- Ancient Avatar- 76 AGI/STA/STR (On my MT: +231 avoidance, 186 health, 38 ATK, and 3.3 to 3.4% more damage on combat arts)vs.D- Dire Invective- Proc Buff: 9.5% (1.9/minute) chance to proc ~91-pt (depends on int) disease Dot every 4 seconds for 24 seconds on successful attack.ANDD- Tendrils of Horror- A buff that grants the MT a 11% (Enhanced to rank 3) chance to proc a 37%DPS and 26% attack speed reduction for any target that damages the MT (duration 36s)Notes: In a day where unlinked adds in raid encounters are plentiful, Tendrils of Horror (slow/dps debuff) trumps the avoidance granted from Avatar. The health is nice, but a defiler already has a mystic beat in the group health buff, so its a non-issue.The Proc from Dire Invective vs. the CA damage from avatar is rougly even; and if Avatar is superior at lower strength, as the tank adds more strength with EoF gear, Dire Invective will pull ahead. Once more, we are buffing against diminishing returns, when they are buffing for a raw amount. Level 70 "Stunning Specialties"M- Oberon Barrier- A single target, regenerating ward that stifles/roots the caster (36s duration). The initial ward is 3172 points (enhanced to rank 5), and assuming the regenerating portions scales as well (I don't have the AA currently) regenerates 1634 every 4 seconds.Total Potential Warding on one target: 16244 over 36s.vs.D- Maelstrom- A group regeneration of both power and health that stifles/roots the caster (40s duration). Also does damage to enemies, but that isn't important here. The heal is for 384-470 every 5 seconds, the power regen is 64-78 every 5 seconds.Total Potential Healing: 4230health and 702 power per groupmember over 40s (Totals: 25380health and 4212 power).Notes: Were I a defiler, I wouldn't max this ability, so I didn't include the enhancement. As a mystic, I MIGHT max it, but might not, so it was included.Winner- In the MT group, neither... arguments could be made for either ability being superior. In my opinion, both have situational uses and are very nice abilities. Since both of these spells are in fact situational, I don't think you can declare a clear winner. I think they are fairly balanced, personally, and definitely add to the flavor of each class.Curing:D- Voice of the Ancestors- Cures control effects on the defilers group, can be used while under a control effect. 1s cast, 2m recast.vs.M- Ancient Balm- Cures 93 levels of every effect under the sun. Can commonly rip 2 to 4 debuffs/dots off of a MT.ANDImmunization (End AA Line ability)For a 15s duration, target is immune to control effects. 1s cast, 3m recast.Thoughts: Immunization is a nice ability. In the case of cureable effects, this can be placed on the mystic before a known AE or somesuch, and then the mystic can single or group cure the group of the effect. If you know that the control effect is uncurable, then it could be placed upon the main tank instead. However, if there is a stun that we don't know is coming, its near useless. Can also be used as a handy tool for pulling mobs that use control effects almost immediately. Another shining point is that it will make a target immune to charm, which, on some encounters is very nice indeed. Nothing can cure a charm currently, so being able to prevent your MT from being charmed is a handy tool. Without this ability, you usually have to have sacrificial pullers to eat a charm, as most mobs that do do so in the first 5 seconds of a fight.Ancient Balm is an awesome time saving tool. Its 1s cast and quick recast (6s) make it excellent for keeping a MT cured, which, in my opinion, is just as important as keeping a MT healed. Not only that, but for some reason (bugged or not?), Ancient Balm can be cast on the move.Voice of the Ancestors is a superior tool for keeping your MT group in the fight. Rotated with sanctuary, a MT group can get around most of the control effects currently in the game (other then a charm). Defilers can choose to lower the recast time on the spell; and, in some situations with or without that lower recast and paired with a templar/sanctuary, the MT group becomes practically impervious to stuns or stifles.Winner: I personally edge towards defiler. Considering that the optimum Shaman achievement setup for the MT group (feel free to argue about it, I'll feel free to laugh) leaves single-target cures at a cast time of .6 (Tribal Expertise rank 5), the fact that Ancient Balm is a 1s cast (and 6s recast) somewhat loses its value. This is somewhat mitigated, however, by the fact that a mystic can run forward on the pull with the tank, and cure as the encounter is being run back to camp, which can make a difference at times. Also, mystics definitely win against charms, the immunity can be nice. However, this is situational.Overall, I believe that the ability to cure the entire group of a stun or stifle, thereby keeping 3 of your mainstay priests in the fight in addition to the tank, is superior to anything a Mystic can offer, except in very specialized cases, and in even in those cases, the advantage is somewhat minimized if a mystic not in the MT group actually has immunities (which I admit, might be rare), because you can just have a fighter in the mystics group with immunities pull the mobs that charm, or maybe rescue at the appropriate times.Healing Pets:M- Umbral Attendant- 2s cast, 20s Duration, 1m recast. Heals group members that are within 5-10m or so for 220-250ish a tick (total of 6 ticks). Moves with the mystic.vs.D- Spiritual Circle 2s cast, 1m duration, 2m recast. Has a slight recurrent power cost. Wards group members that are within 5-10m (assuming) for an unknown amount (sorry dont' recall it off the top of my head). The pet is stationary once cast.Winner: Neither... they seem to be fairly balanced, trading off with the fact that the circle can't move and costs higher power versus the fact that it can be up more of the time (1/2 the time as opposed to 1/3 of the time). Of course, I can't remember for the life of me what the circle wards for, but I think its about what the mystic pet heals for.Other/No Proper Category-M- Prophetic Aegis- A 2s cast, 36s duration, 1m recast group ward. Increases Noxious resists for the group by 912, and wards EACH member of the group versus 1716 points of noxious damage. If I remember correctly, this ward also possibly regenerates?Hands down, this is an great ability. Defilers get nothing like this, and its use against noxious AE's (which are plentiful both in KoS and moreso in EoF) is seriously, like, huge. Not only will you get hit for less, but it really takes the edge of those 6 or 7k AE's, and totally marginalizes the 3 or 4k AE's. With many mobs in EoF having 40s AE's, it doesn't have the same use that it does on say, Chel'Drak (and some other KoS/TFD encounters), as it can't pretty much always be up.. but nevertheless, it is a very valuable and viable tool.Overall:In my opinion (and in most people's), Defilers bring more to the Main Tank group, be it HP, the ability to slow/dps debuff more mobs, etc, etc, etc.I have no problems with this, my problems start to develop below:Defiler vs. Mystic in a Melee-DPS oriented raid group:What Changes? Let's go back through. I'll omit numbers and descriptions for brevity, as they have already been explained above.Regenerating Wards on Mit Buffs: Moxnix, to be honest. The only time this really comes into play is on a mob with a damage shield... which come in a variety of effects.STA vs. HP on level 60 STR Buff: 102 Stamina never equals 666HP... ever. Defiler FTW.Single Target Buffs: More Power vs. More Health- Again, somewhat moxnix. They both have the option of taking down more buffs, since they aren't in the MT group, so they can both place them upon more people. Which is better is entirely situational. On Encounters with Heavy AE's, the defilers have a slight edge. On Encounters where a fast burn is needed, perhaps Mystics do. Honestly I have no problem with the disparity between these two spells, and find them overall to be balanced.Single Target Toggle Buffs: Tendrils of Horror loses its importance, unless it is on a secondary tank, etc, etc... so does the Agility on Avatar for the purposes of avoidance. The combat art damage added from the STR on Avatar is likely to be 2-4 percent, which, depending on the class, could be better then a proc buff. The STR/AGI on avatar could be used on a fighter/scout as a small power pool buff. However, with the correct AA's, Avatar will also add intelligence and wisdom (48 each), so the buff could very well stay on the mystic. Result: Fairly even.Level 70 Stunning Specialties: Oberon is near useless unless someone in your group pulls aggro. However, if they pull aggro, Oberon isn't nearly enough to keep them up, as you severely limit your burst healing capabilities. Maelstrom retains some use as both an efficient group heal and a small power renewal for the group. Result: DefilerCuring: Ancient Balm is probably still thrown on the tank blindly/randomly every so often. However, Voice of the Ancestors is an invaluable tool here, as you can cure group, throw a cure out to one of your MT priests (Templar in all likelyhood), and have them group cure/sanctuary to get over the control effect. Immunities (if taken) loses use, unless a tank in your group is used as a puller for a mob that charms immediately. Results: DefilerHealing Pets: Spiritual Circle loses its use unless there is a small steady stream of damage incoming on the group. Umbral Attendant can be used as a slow, highly efficient heal after an AE, and probably has more use. However, for a melee DPS group, it is likely that the pet (And therefor the shaman, in the Mystic's case) would have to be in AE range of the encounter to really take effect on the group, so both are of limited use.Other: Prophetic Aegis still hands down can be a lifesaver on heavy noxious AE's.Overall: In a melee DPS group, the preferred shaman is quite honestly situational. Both have their uses, the major ones being a noxious ward for the group, and a control effect cure. However, the noxious ward is probably better off in a group where its members are less robust (i.e., a ranged/mage DPS group). Overall, I'll say they are about even, each having a variety of unique, but minor, strengths, for the majority of basic encounters. A defiler is more likely to fill this spot in my raid, for reasons outlined below.Defilers vs. Mystic in a Ranged/Mage DPS-oriented raid group:Regenerating Wards on Mit Buffs: Again, fairly moxnix. It is likely that the Defiler's magic ward will see more use or more efficiency, but not always.STA vs. HP on level 60 STR Buff: Again, 102 Stamina NEVER equals 666HP... ever. Defiler.Single Target Buffs: Same as in a melee-dps group, however, the Mystic slightly outdoes the defiler, as a mage group is much more likely to be able to totally avoid an AE due to range. Results: MysticSingle Target Toggle Buffs: Tendrils is all but useless, and Dire Invective is unless you have a Troubador, Paladin, or Guardian in the group (for aggro control/what-have-you). Avatar follows the same rule as dire invective, but can be used as a small power buff for virtually any target in the group (if enhanced to rank 5). Results: Probably Mystic.Level 70 Stunning Specialties: Almost exactly the same as above. Result: DefilerCuring: Same as above, except immunities probably totally uses its use (unless placed upon someone in your group who can group cure). Results: DefilerHealing Pets: Here the Mystic hedges out over the Defiler in most encounters, as the Attendant can heal after an AE and not be in range of the encounter. Spiritual Circle would be nice in situations of small, steady damage as above, but doesn't give much in the way of protection against AE's. Results: MysticOther: Prophetic Aegis FTW. Results: MysticOverall: I believe that a Mystic is slightly more suited to a mage-DPS group, which I find to be somewhat awkward. Aren't we the ones who concentrate on the Physical Side, and the Defilers the ones who concentrate more on the Magical side?A Hybrid Group: Each have their uses, and things are situational dependant upon the group. Results: For encounters with Noxious AE's: Mystic. For Encounters with Control Effect AE's: Defiler. Overall: Too situational/group dependant to really determine.So, from what we see here, I would say the following:Among players of comparable skill, spellbooks, and equipment:A Defiler is definitely better suited to the Main Tank Group.A Mystic is slightly better suited to a Mage DPS Group.Defilers and Mystics are likely equal in a Melee-DPS group, dependant upon setup.Slightly off-topic, but these are some questions/thoughts that this research has raised... and I would really like to hear the (constructive) opinions of others on them (and I would absolutely love for a Developer to lend his or her knowledge/expertise on the matter).Defilers get two toggle buffs. Mystics get one. If you combine the two defiler buffs, they do the same things that the Mystic buffs do in most situations (speaking of end-results). However, the defiler buffs combined are, in my opinion, highly superior to Avatar. Mystics are constantly buffing against the law of diminishing returns, and Defilers rather ignore it. Why is this? If this system were to be properly balanced, the numbers should be such that a Mystic is superior buffing against the system until about 550-650ish, and then, defilers would begin to hedge them out. Right now, the number where our buffs start to lose effectiveness is much lower then that (variable, but please see this thread: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=19&message.id=16064&jump=true#M16064 for an in-depth look of stamina vs. raw health).An Achievement Comparison: Defilers get more useful abilities/enhancements then I would know what to do with (in terms of raiding). For a Mystic, I have to SCRAPE to spend anything above 15-20 points. Some priests got the rez-lines... some got the cure-lines. Both of them are pretty crappy. Why in the HELL did mystics get both? I highly recommend serious consideration into eliminating one of these two lines, to be replaced with a line more akin to the defiler debuff line, or warding line. I don't believe that our current Mystic Achievement options are on par with ANY other priest (however, I'll admit that this could be perception on my part... I'd have to do ALOT more research to be sure, and I want to publish this sooner rather then later). I know for a fact they aren't anywhere near on-par with the Defiler lines.The group buffs: Can anyone tell me what base stamina is required for 102 Stamina to be worth 666 Health? From the looks of it, I would estimate it to be somewhere around -428.2... but my estimation might be on the high side.
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Old 11-25-2006, 03:50 AM   #2
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Good post, and there's a lot of good information in here. One thing that wasn't mentioned was usefulness outside of the MT group. IE.. what can you still do outside of the MT group, and as you would guess this brings me to Torpor and Bolster. Both of which can be cast on the tank from outside of the MT group. Defilers lose a lot of their healing potential when not in the MT group as you have stated above. When in a Melee DPS group, or even Mage group Tendrills is absolutely useless. HP buffs, again, fairly useless as "most" people in your raidforce will not get one-shotted. Do i put it on the lowest HP person in my group.. for sure I do, but I wouldn't say it would be game-breaking if I didn't.. Nor would I say that not casting Avatar on a group member would be game breaking, but Avatar also brings STR and AGI to the table, and for Scouts that means more power and more damage that we do not provide.
 
Defilers have 3 healing abilities outside of the MT group to use on the MT. Single target ward, Small heal, Large heal.. that's it, that's all.. Mystics have Single target ward, Torpor, Bolster, Small heal, Large Heal. While you would not be at your full healing potential that you would be if you were in the MT group, you're a LOT closer than a Defiler would be. I'm not counting the Curse of Shielding line here as a healing utility as it's not reliable healing. It helps when it procs, but it's not like it fires off every 3 seconds. there are times where it's cast and it doesn't proc once before it expires. That's the problem with % chances. Ask any Templar about their Involuntary Healer line and they will tell you the same thing. Is it a tool that I use on a regular basis? Yes for sure.. is it something I RELY on to do my job? No, because it's not reliable.
 
As you stated, I'm trying to keep this civil.. and I hope nothing I said was taken as offensive or rude as that's not my intent.
 
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Old 11-25-2006, 04:30 AM   #3
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Those fabulous debuffs we have grown to love are not so fabulous anymore. 32% reduction to all stats is now a 48point. Our debuffs do cast faster now w/ AA's and have a better resistability, but they also last longer which doesn't really make the faster cast all that beneficial. Not to mention, you won't notice the 48point debuff on a raid mob.

Its very important to present the comparision between classes in both the MT grp and out. Arguments regarding who gets MT spot only sound like arguments that the MT spot is the only important place to be. I know thats not the OPs intent, but we should look at raid values, not just MT grp values. In the raid, I think a lot of those defiler wins go to the mystics. This is importand because the class balance needs to go both ways if the underlying message is to grant some more bene's to the Mystics for MT grp raiding. It would only further degrade the value of a raid defiler. I see some of the new Mystic AA's seem to very much level the playing field to MT stat buffing too.

Message Edited by Raffta on 11-24-2006 03:32 PM

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Old 11-25-2006, 04:28 PM   #4
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this thread is relly misleading for defilers you say that the regenerating mit buff which btw is calculated wrong is something defilers have you say they have this but i would never get this aa you also state we get faster casting assumeing we get this aa you cant assume aas for defilers but not mystics  theres alot of miss information here also saying that faster casting debuffs is worthless is proboly understatment of the year faster casting recast recovery gives alot more time for dps debuffing cureing and everything else under the sun theres alot wrong with this thread and im a bit tired right now but those are the things that stuck out to me at the moment
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Old 11-26-2006, 12:32 AM   #5
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Old 11-26-2006, 01:19 PM   #6
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My intent is most definitely not to say that Mystics should be equal in a MT Group, in case that is unclear. I'll quote my third or fourth sentence:"I am NOT a mystic who believes that mystics and defilers should be even in a main tank group. I'm just sharing most of my research into the class particulars."Also, my goal here wasn't to compare heals, debuffs, or DPS at all, although, I'm sure at a later date I might try to compare the first one as they are affected by raid groups. Debuffs are debuffs, and DPS... eh... isn't so important (to me at least) in a raid.If I got into the healing discussion, I would have to bring it all in... for instance... could a defiler outlast a mystic due to forced canni? Something like that can seriously affect long-term healing capability, and is much harder to lay into particulars as I have above. You start getting into many more "what-ifs" then I am personally comfortable with.And to you guys that think Bolster is really anything... in my opionion, it isn't all that. It eats up an initial spike on a pull, and I suppose before a known huge spike, it helps... but trust me, when I betray, it won't be something I particularly miss. You should be complaining about Prophetic Aegis if you complain about any of our abilities (other then Torpor, of course... maybe an increase in the percentage change on the curse of shielding line would be a good thing there).
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Old 11-26-2006, 11:40 PM   #7
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Thatdumbguy wrote:
My intent is most definitely not to say that Mystics should be equal in a MT Group, in case that is unclear. I'll quote my third or fourth sentence:

"I am NOT a mystic who believes that mystics and defilers should be even in a main tank group. I'm just sharing most of my research into the class particulars."

Also, my goal here wasn't to compare heals, debuffs, or DPS at all, although, I'm sure at a later date I might try to compare the first one as they are affected by raid groups. Debuffs are debuffs, and DPS... eh... isn't so important (to me at least) in a raid.

If I got into the healing discussion, I would have to bring it all in... for instance... could a defiler outlast a mystic due to forced canni? Something like that can seriously affect long-term healing capability, and is much harder to lay into particulars as I have above. You start getting into many more "what-ifs" then I am personally comfortable with.

And to you guys that think Bolster is really anything... in my opionion, it isn't all that. It eats up an initial spike on a pull, and I suppose before a known huge spike, it helps... but trust me, when I betray, it won't be something I particularly miss. You should be complaining about Prophetic Aegis if you complain about any of our abilities (other then Torpor, of course... maybe an increase in the percentage change on the curse of shielding line would be a good thing there).



My apologies for not having a clear understanding of your posts intent. Based off the content, theres clearly an intent on comparing the two classes in the MT group and only the MT group. I know that sentence you reference states what your intent is not, perhaps you can help me understand exactly  what the intent is. Statng an intent clearly as opposed to infering through examples of what an intent isn't is something I can follow a little better. I apologize in advance if this intent is clearly spelled out in your post, I likely read over it.
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Old 11-27-2006, 02:30 AM   #8
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Raffa, did you read the rest of the post, where I went into detail about the Shaman in a melee-oriented and mage-oriented raid group? True, those sections are shorter... but that is because, I explained most of the particulars of each spell (effects, etc, etc) earlier in the discussion, and felt no need to include the details each time.Also, as for my intent, I stated it... sharing my research into the particulars in the class. I answer dozens of questions a month about things related to my... um... essay? dissertation? I just put as much info as I could in one place as a reference. It could be used as a tool by us Shaman... or a newbish raid leader... or anyone who wants to understand some of the dynamic abit better.I DON"T THINK THAT SHAMAN HAVE TO BE EQUAL IN THE MAIN TANK GROUP. It is one small aspect of game-play, and revolves more around egotism then anything. Defilers are still king in the MT group this expansion, and that is fine by me. Like I said, both classes are needed and valued on the raid, unless your raid leader is an idiot.
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Old 11-27-2006, 11:44 PM   #9
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I'd just like to point out that my healing pet (Umbral Attendant I think? The little ghosty-bear) gets one shotted 75% of the time when I pop him out when fighting a mob that has any AE of any sort.
 
Does the circle spell Defilers use get hit? Or is it more of an incorporeal entity that just sits there healing?

I find myself rarely even trying to use the bear to heal in higher level fights these days.
 
I would certainly not count him as a win for the Mystics. SMILEY
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Old 11-27-2006, 11:55 PM   #10
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Basically what it seems the OP is saying is;  Defilers > Mystics, albit not by much.

That about sum it up??

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Old 11-28-2006, 12:14 AM   #11
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Spiritual Circle does indeed get owned by AE's. To the original topic, you cannot compare the classes on buffs alone. Buffs, Healing, Debuffs, DPS, Utility all need to be looked at to make an overall comparison both in and out of the MT group. We both have strengths and weaknesses depending on where we are placed in a raid, and as a whole the classes are fairly balanced needing only some minor tweaks on both sides.
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Old 11-28-2006, 12:45 AM   #12
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Thanks for the clarificaiton Duntzz. I think both heal pets should be considered "Non-Targetable" by NPC's and their actions.
 
As far as the "Who gets the MT group spot" debate goes, it appears to some that it's not important, and to others that it is.
 
To me, it's important enough that I would change my class if I found myself put on the second string. I say second string because that's what my personal perspective of the support groups is. Not that there's any less function or value to them. It's just what I like to do. It's personally more fun to me to be one of the guys that keeps the main tank standing. I mean, the rest of the raid needs to keep up their DPS while staying alive. The MT support group has to become the PRIMARY target of the entire onslaught of mobs. I like that.
 
If I were a Berserker and found that the Guardian's ALWAYS got the MT spot, I'd switch to Guardian as well.
 
With that said, we don't even have a Defiler in our guild high enough to bump me from my spot, so I haven't really experienced it from either angle yet.
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Old 11-28-2006, 01:20 AM   #13
Thatdumbg

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Duntzzzz wrote:
Spiritual Circle does indeed get owned by AE's. To the original topic, you cannot compare the classes on buffs alone. Buffs, Healing, Debuffs, DPS, Utility all need to be looked at to make an overall comparison both in and out of the MT group. We both have strengths and weaknesses depending on where we are placed in a raid, and as a whole the classes are fairly balanced needing only some minor tweaks on both sides.
Alrighty, bear with me here. I covered utility, if I missed something, please correct me...DPS in a raid? Who gives a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]? In today's encounters, if you have time to seriously focus on your DPS, then it isn't a fight where anything else matters anyways... you're probably fighting trash. Debuffs... As I said, both classes are awesome to have on a raid... its preferential to have both... and the debuffs that either class have have very little bearing on what group they should be in, barring tendrils of horror (which is a buff that debuffs, so I guess it is both).Healing... since any raid maximizing capability will place a defiler in the MT group (assuming players of similar skill/equipment/spellbooks), healing isn't as much of an issue either. Mystics are stronger MT healers outside of the MT group then Defilers because of Torpor... other then that, our group healing options aren't really that much different. I outlined the major differences above (our heal pets).I'm not trying to focus on absolute class balance or everything being perfect, I'm not a dev, I don't have access to the wealth of information that they do... so I rely only on my experience and things I can jot down without getting TOO situational (because anything based upon too many situational arguments just devolves into petty bickering).Yeah, at the end of the post, I posted some things I think are whack with mystics right now... and I'm sure that defilers have their own list to pull from as well. Like I said in that section, is was somewhat offtopic, maybe I should've put it in a different post.
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