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Old 10-29-2018, 12:28 AM   #181
Daalilama

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Sure why not...we already have scripts bypassing control effect immunities, class and special death saves that are near pointless, removal of stacking wards to mitigate normal Bleedthrough (2.0), 50 - 70% nerf to healers ability to you know heal effectively...why not have completely unwardable damage welcome to Bleedthrough 2.5.
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Old 10-29-2018, 02:25 AM   #182
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Whichever dev thinks its okay to ignore signature forms of healing is just wrong. And wrong is actually this nicest word I can use.
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Old 10-29-2018, 04:06 AM   #183
Daalilama

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The utter silence is deafening and telling.
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Old 10-29-2018, 10:15 PM   #184
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Tried Doomfire: The Enkindled Towers (Heroic) with only Defiler. It is the easier instance (or at least T1). Impossible to heal the first named. At 65% wipe. Drain is amazing, but staying at range you can avoid it (or for the time we stay alive).
Please devs @Caith, @Kander, after the release will be like the beta? What is the plan for the healer class? Do groups with 2 healers will be mandatory?
Thank you
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Old 10-30-2018, 06:20 AM   #185
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What did you wipe to? Was it the curse? Bulwark not protecting you?
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Old 10-30-2018, 03:23 PM   #186
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It was the tipical PU group, tank healer and dpss. First, oop the tank all the time. Stun because he couldn't cast the new spell. Almost impossible to keep the group health up, only curing the curse (except when I was stunned because the tank didn't cast the Bulwark)...
One thing is try to "fix" heal. Try to fix something that worked and didn't need a fix, but well, what we have now is a complete new game. New group setup. New form to play heal classes (cast group ward to heal the group is sad). New stats needed (everyone in group was T3-T4 geared). New.... to much things at same time.
I didn't get the test gear that scales in heroic. Why? I wanted to see if, with a very good gear, if after clear the expansion, I can heal an easy heroic instance. And I couldn't (even having enough resolve).
This is not challenging. It's the same than with Ykesha. An incurable det that interrupts all the time. Not curable that force you to pay attention and cross cure other healers in raid. Incurable. And this seems the new "policy" for DB. Challenge =suffer. Finish an encounter and instead say "wow, we did it" say "finally, what ******g annoying mob".
After 14 years, don't break the game. Release is Nov 13rd. I hope they don't launch the expansion like it is now.
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Old 10-30-2018, 05:12 PM   #187
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There is a proximity mana drain, but the big mana sucks are curable detriments from what I've seen. Everyone should be using potions to self-cure to help the healer, because the healer is so darn busy trying to keep people's hitpoints up.
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Old 10-30-2018, 05:14 PM   #188
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There are proximity drains that are not curable.. and since the tank needs to be next to the mob.. AND have power for bulwark.....
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Old 10-30-2018, 06:36 PM   #189
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A few questions to the dev team.

1/ Every heroic zone seems to require 2 healers. Is it what you planned ?
2/ Whatever healing class you pick, the only way to keep the group alive seems to spam over and over on cooldown our heals, having no time to dps, let alone launching ascension spells. Is it working as intended ?
3/ To sum up: can we hope for some tweaking in the healing mechanics before launch ?

I have the feeling every healer will become a healing bot or mercenary, and that's not really fun.
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Old 10-30-2018, 06:47 PM   #190
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Well, I have done heroics and to be honest, you can solo heal them. The T1s and the events..it may be rough for the t2 events but I have even solo healed fire t2. I have done T1s and the easy events without a chanter, with a pug and it is a matter of tweaking your toon, changing your aa's to make up for the loss in potency. Yes, there are power drains, but they aren't as bad when the heroics first came out. You have to cure fast, all the dets. I hate curing being a shaman but it is something I have to get used to. I don't notice this proximity drain I notice i get hit harder the closer I am to the named.

I am still able to dps and cast ascensions, not as much as I want but I know it will get better, once I get used to all the curing.

But I agree, everyone should be pot curing, have heal/power pots.
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Old 10-30-2018, 06:53 PM   #191
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Heroic zones should not require 2 healers. On most of our testing, we have been using 1 healer, even for the tier 2 heroic zones. Alot of our focused testing [Testing with a Dev] has been with mystics, defilers, so that we are assured they can be done by these classes.

Yes, there will indeed be tweaking. The healing debuff works the same way as if it wasn't there, get better gear, heal more. Items should now have progression for you, better stuff, better heals. It allows us to put in more heal centric items. Every heal is no longer a complete heal. Players take damage. Cures need to be made. You are needed.
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Old 10-30-2018, 07:08 PM   #192
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Is there any intent for the debuff to be transparent to players? So healers can have an idea, before they cast an heal, what it is going to do? The debuff doesn't appear to uniform.. it seems to affect some heals more than others, making it difficult to tell which heal is optimal to cast.
It also makes it impossible to tell if it changes..
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Old 10-30-2018, 07:49 PM   #193
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It doesn’t debuff the healer, if debuffs the recipient.
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Old 10-30-2018, 07:58 PM   #194
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Interesting... it still appears to affect different arts differently.
Does it affect different classes differently? I'll have to grab some people to test that.
Either way, it still means healers have no information about what our heals are going to do before we cast them. Even being able to see what the debuff does to the healer (as a recipient of heals) would be give heals a clue what to expect.
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Old 10-30-2018, 09:11 PM   #195
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Shaman have ways to self feed a tiny bit of power...Furies do not and it has definitely been a challenge to heal without a conj or BL for powerfeed. I have been chain oom and unable to cure a lot.

I wish there wasn't so much focus on adding cures checks. Nobody likes to cure... especially when you have to chug clarity potions to keep up with cures.

Regarding the debuff. Just change the heal values directly. We should be able to know what our spells will do before we get to the zone.
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Old 10-30-2018, 11:15 PM   #196
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Could do it alone, but using the beta testing gear (so is a bit unreal, because in the release we won't have these stats, for example the extra fervor that every piece of armor gives). I suppose is only on test the mechanic, but nothing more.

And I only could spam heals, use the group cure and the curse cure. It was boring for me. No debuffs, no nukes... nothing. And as I said, with the beta scaling gear.

We always need healers. With these changes, IMO, thehealers population will be lower, because is not funny play a healer now Wink
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Old 10-30-2018, 11:20 PM   #197
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This. So much this.
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Old 10-30-2018, 11:28 PM   #198
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Very much this.
I've never been 'afraid' healers wouldn't be needed. I'm 'afraid' healing won't be enjoyable.
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Old 10-30-2018, 11:34 PM   #199
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There's no afraid needed in that sentence when we go live it won't be. Too much smoke and mirrors going on with regards to the new changes.
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Old 10-31-2018, 01:01 AM   #200
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I completely agree with Daalilama, healing has become not fun but more like a job. I have done this beta stuff and tbh the idea of playing a healer now is not something I want to do with the new changes. Spamming heals, and casting 1 or 2 ascensions durning the entire fight, is not fun. I have never played any MMO where we go completely backwards, as much as they plan in this xpac.
They buffed up the mystics, and they now have a ton of CB compared to the Defilers, making there wards larger, so defilers will start out lower on wards than the mystics. Unless they plan to buff the defilers too. But at the moment we have to spam even harder to keep a group alive. And honestly, I am wondering if they are just phasing out the defiler completely. I have stopped playing the beta as I get more depressed each time I do. But seriously I am not enjoying or liking the healing side of the xpac. To much stress and not fun.
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Old 10-31-2018, 01:08 AM   #201
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i am a mystic and I have enough scaling gear to barely meet the resolve requirement. Wearing scaling gear actually makes me lose pot/cb and fervor is almost the same
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Old 10-31-2018, 01:25 AM   #202
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Defilers have more tools to deal with the constant bleedthrough (aka nightmares and maelstrom).
So mystics may not have to refresh their wards as often, but they have to spam their direct heals where defilers have to refresh their wards more often but can have nightmares or maelstrom running 'in the background' to deal with the constant BT.
Not sure either is better or worse than the other on the healing sides, especially solo healing heriocs.
Mystics do have better buffage for their groups, though.
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Old 10-31-2018, 01:32 AM   #203
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Preliminary testing shows the debuff hits healers and tanks the same.. I'll be testing with scouts and mages later.
Different heals, however, are debuffed differently still.
Comparing from casting in the library from casting in t1 heroic zones, it still varies from about 60% to 75%, depending on the heal
The 'increase' in debuff to t2 zones also varies between the heals.. being from about 1% to 7% MORE (aka 60 vs 61% nerf and 74 vs 81% nerf as the two outliers)

edit: I used non-scaling gear for the tests to make sure the were no additional variables affecting the size of the heals. And the tests were out of combat, so resolve isn't an issue.. even though it (so far as we know) doesn't affect incoming heals.. just incoming and outgoing damage.
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Old 10-31-2018, 01:42 AM   #204
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Does this mean you're actually putting in healing type gear to offset whatever is making healing minimal.. and I'm guessing people are not happy with healers dpsing as much as they used to, so we should see a decline in DPS check mobs as heals wont' be adding dps to the mix as they have been in the last 3 plus xpacs?
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:45 AM   #205
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I play a Fury because they were supposed to be dps priests...
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Old 10-31-2018, 05:45 AM   #206
Daalilama

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So let me take note of all the scripting healers will have to overcome this xpac....1)Bleedthrough 2.0 no longer mitigated by ward layering. 2) A hidden healer specific debuff affecting all healers from roughly 50 to 75% on a spell by spell basis and as per Kander's own language is a heal debuff on incoming not outgoing (so basically it is a decrease to incoming heals to target) but since the debuff itself and some of the mechanics have been intentionally hidden from the player base so dont know. 3) Mobs will have fully unwardable aoe's within their scripts (oh joy) 4)Control effects bypassing class/adornment immunities (umm why do we even have them than to begin with if your going to bypass everything?). 5) Oh did we all forget the standard stat negation on all mobs like pop...sure in the grand scheme of things this is the least of our concerns.

Given near pointless deathsaves nowadays, nearly nonuniform incoming heal debuff groups/raids will have to deal with...the lack of desire for competent healers to you know play healers with current planned mechanics changes, where exactly do the devs plan for healers to go? Will we be allowed to contribute dps at all or are we relegated to heals only that is if the debuff doesnt kick us in the holy nether region too hard to keep our groups alive. How will the current planned mechanics pan out for 2 non warding healer classes running tandem for groups will the damage excessively nuke players as it is currently? You have stated you are testing the new zones preferably with shaman solo healing what is the general make up of their group do they bring a heavy dps group as in heavier dps = quicker end to fight and shorter workload on the solo healer...this and other questions on the testing done need to be asked and answered. Cause currently far far too many unanswered questions remain.
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Old 10-31-2018, 06:34 AM   #207
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Yes and no.. if the healing debuff stays at the 60-75% (t1) that it is.. any potency we get only benifits our heals by 25-40% of the listed value..
With the difference in debuff between t1 and t2 about 5%, that means that means healers need over 10% (using a 50% debuff to keep numbers simple) more potency just to stay even.. while the mobs are hitting harder.
If the healers DON'T have at least 10% more potency (most heals are debuffed closer to 70% then 50%) healers will actually have SMALLER heals in T2 zones than t1.. while the mobs hit harder.

The numbers are just guestimates based of limited testing. If the debuff was transparent to players, healers would have the information on what to expect from their heals and what numbers they would want to meet to avoid struggling and/or spam healing.
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Old 10-31-2018, 08:22 AM   #208
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Catterinna, what healer class are you, and how are you geared?
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Old 10-31-2018, 09:28 AM   #209
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Text of Chaotic Leech:
T1: Disrupts natural energies, reducing wards and healing received by 5295
T2: Disrupts natural energies, reducing wards and healing received by 7538

The description though it has numbers was opaque, so I did some more tests. All the arts I tested with have fixed heal/ward values to make comparison easier and more exact. The trailing percent is the size of the ward compared to the Myrist value. Non-scaling gear was used for the tests.

Umbral Barrier
  • Myrist: 357,846,961
  • T1 Heroic: 187,226,399 --> 52.32%
  • T2 Heroic: 135,916,124 ---> 37.98%
Ancestral Ward
  • Myrist: 218,716,705
  • T1 Heroic: 71,235,124 --> 32.57%
  • T2 Heroic: 46,036,286 --> 21.05%
Oberon
  • Myrist: 288,684,952
  • T1 Heroic: 95,237,711 --> 32.99%
  • T2 Heroic: 55,515,815 --> 19.23%
Torpor (ward)
  • Myrist: 109,736,000
  • T1 Heroic: 31,872,614 --> 29.04%
  • T2 Heroic: 22,179,118 --> 20.21%
Torpor (heal)
  • Myrist: 54,597,711
  • T1 Heroic: 20,850,702 --> 38.19%
  • T2 Heroic: 13,131,458 --> 24.05%

The number listed in the debuff clearly isn't a percent and it seems to affect different heals and wards differently. So, while we have a number, we have no context for the number and it's clearly interacting with some formula we don't have information on.
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Old 10-31-2018, 01:38 PM   #210
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[IMG] [IMG]
first one is raid gear POP and 2nd is with scaling gear to reach resolve


[IMG] [IMG]
outside the zone in pop gear and testing gear

[IMG] [IMG]
T1 standing and T1 fighting in POP gear


[IMG] [IMG]
T1 standing and T1 in combat with scaling gear on
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