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Old 11-09-2009, 05:04 PM   #1
ranlaen

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Ok apart from fact that every 2nd xpac means new levels tradition is there really any point to it.

Surely as TSO shown us people will grind AA and new gear to get better.Why do we need levels on top of that.

I think all this new levels is one of the killing points for new and returning players even if you make the levels faster.People just get disheartened to know it will mean 90 levels to go and find a newer fresher mmorpg .

First impression means a lot .Go to sites like mmorpg.com and others like them there a lot of intrest in EQ2 as an alternative mmorpg but one of the common questions is this " am i too late to start playing EQ2 as it has 30 more levels then original" .imagine now it will be 40 more.

And honestly i don't see what more levels will do for the game.Harder encounters requiring new AA works the same and keeps people busy.less people ingame worried about having to spend time getting every single peice of their gear upgrade.

Yes with TSO many upgraded their gear (which is good .xpac should mean better stuff to look forward to) but at least you could still rely a bit on your old gear if you take the non raiding option for a new xpac and not be forced back into grinding instances or raids.

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Old 11-09-2009, 05:14 PM   #2
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I'm sure some one can confirm this. EQ2 is set to level all the way to 150, so the end is still a bit off (that's atleast 12 more expansions by my count if they keep the pattern as it is). I'd also just like to say... all MMO's have level cap increases, or you wind up getting the "Ok what's next?" syndrome folks get bored just as easily staying a constant level as they do having to catch up to everyone else, it's part and parcel with the genre.

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Old 11-09-2009, 05:56 PM   #3
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Levels are necessary to this type of game mainly because they are large time sinks.  MMO's in general are dependent on time sinks, you are after all paying by the month.  But it doesn't hide the fact that a better system would be to add more content, but that is probably prohibitive from a developer manpower point view.

Personally I HATE leveling, especially after the 6th or 7th alt having to slog through the same content AGAIN isn't the worst part of it, it's the complete graveyard that is level 1 to 80, soon to be 1 to 90.  It's really not a MMO until level 80, of course you have your moments in between where you may group, etc., but they are really few and far between.  Granted there are people who like to Soloquest, I'm only giving my opinion and understand not everyone shares it.  But personally if I enjoyed Soloquest I would just play Dragon Age, Oblivion, or something along those lines.  You can even keep your chat messenger open to simulate the feel of Soloquest.  Hey the game was originally designed as GROUPING game, but that means more and more content, so somewhere along the line more and more timesinks had to be incorporated.

I would love to see a guild wars type system where the leveling was minimized and you could quickly get to the "real" game, which is grouping with possible aspirations to build your character to progressively harder dungeons and maybe even raids.

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Old 11-09-2009, 06:03 PM   #4
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I dunno.  A lot of games I've played in the past had the max level and that was it, ever.  Some of them implemented "rebirth" options (mainly MUDs) to extend playtime.

I, personally, would be content with 80 as endgame.  It sounds like a good number.  90 sounds high... 100?  150?  Huge numbers!  Don't get me wrong.  I played a MUD once where I took the rebirth option 7 times, which was the max, and the levels you could reborn at were 100 -> 125 -> 150 -> 200 -> 250 -> 500 -> 700.  So in total, I technically leveled almost 2,000 times.  I'm not adverse to leveling, I just think 80 feels like a nice number.  I honestly thought 80 was going to be endgame when shard gear came about, and mythicals, and all of these level 80 significant goodies.

I don't perceive more and more levels as necessary to a game's vitality for me.  I know that there are a lot of people, on the other hand, that would quit if 80 became endgame because they perceive levels as advancement.  So, because EQ2 caters to many, many playstyles, which is one reason why I love this game, I open my arms to a raised level cap, not for me, but for others, just as I would hope they would open their arms to something that caters to me.  Optimistic, but it's how I want to think.  (:

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Old 11-09-2009, 06:16 PM   #5
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ranlaen wrote:

Yes with TSO many upgraded their gear (which is good .xpac should mean better stuff to look forward to) but at least you could still rely a bit on your old gear if you take the non raiding option for a new xpac and not be forced back into grinding instances or raids.

You bring up an interesting point in "MMO theory."

In a game like EQ2, where the bulk of the relevant content is at the end game, I think a goal should be to give new players the option to participate in that content ASAP.  For people who want to play the game primarily for group/raid content rather than solo/small group content, the game hardly even gets started until the level cap, so a long leveling process tests their patience and risks losing their subscriptions.

However, if someone with only the gear they got leveling tries to do a TSO zone, they're probably in for a frustrating experience (unless their group just carries them through, I guess).  The barrier for entry to TSO zones is clearly higher than it was for RoK (as it should be), and if you have another expansion at 80, those zones are going to have even higher requirements of new players. 

On the other hand, if you raise the level cap to 90, you can make level 90 the only relevant requirement, and if there are options for leveling quickly, you could, in theory, end up with new players ready to start heroic zones in next expansion faster than if you had added on to the TSO requirements.  You might have needed T2 shard gear to start the new 80 zones (hypothetically), but if the time to level is less than the time to acquire that shard gear (or whatever the minimum reqs would have been), then you've saved the new player time on their way to true end-game content.

Of course, the content for leveling from 80 to 90 has be accessible to people starting at the very low end of T8 gear, and early T9 gear has to be good enough for the T9 zones (can't have uber T8 gear influencing how T9 content is balanced), which, by the way, is probably the main reason they're pushing for that gear degradation idea that most players hate.

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Old 11-09-2009, 06:35 PM   #6
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ranlaen wrote:

Ok apart from fact that every 2nd xpac means new levels tradition is there really any point to it.

Surely as TSO shown us people will grind AA and new gear to get better.Why do we need levels on top of that.

I think all this new levels is one of the killing points for new and returning players even if you make the levels faster.People just get disheartened to know it will mean 90 levels to go and find a newer fresher mmorpg .

First impression means a lot .Go to sites like mmorpg.com and others like them there a lot of intrest in EQ2 as an alternative mmorpg but one of the common questions is this " am i too late to start playing EQ2 as it has 30 more levels then original" .imagine now it will be 40 more.

And honestly i don't see what more levels will do for the game.Harder encounters requiring new AA works the same and keeps people busy.less people ingame worried about having to spend time getting every single peice of their gear upgrade.

Yes with TSO many upgraded their gear (which is good .xpac should mean better stuff to look forward to) but at least you could still rely a bit on your old gear if you take the non raiding option for a new xpac and not be forced back into grinding instances or raids.

This will be an issue in any MMO that offers some sort of character progression, as the existing players will want more content and more ways to develop their characters. Removing levels would just shift the emphasis to AAs, gear and any other upgrade path the game offers.

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Old 11-09-2009, 07:44 PM   #7
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I like progressing and being 80 for more than two years is not progressing.

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Old 11-09-2009, 09:07 PM   #8
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I am very much FOR more levels, and for the gear/spell quality reset and the like that this represents.

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Old 11-09-2009, 11:11 PM   #9
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Gaige wrote:

I like progressing and being 80 for more than two years is not progressing.

What he said.

@ the original poster. Weve been level 80 for 2 years, weve been gearing for level 80 for 2 years. Weve grinded AA at level 80 for 2 years.

Is this your first crack at a MMO? this is simply the way it is. EVERY expansion brings with it bigger numbers, new goals, and, like it or not, Breaking the old level cap, acts as a kind of game reset. Brings everyone back closer to a commonground rather than having wild differences in playing power due to gear. In the context of EQ2, the level 90 cap is certainly overdue.

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Old 11-10-2009, 03:50 AM   #10
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Gaige wrote:

I like progressing and being 80 for more than two years is not progressing.

This, exactly.  But I also agree that most of the previous levels are trivial.  I really wouldn't mind at all if they made a way to start a character as a level 80, with like 140 AAs or even if it was 0 AAs.  I have a lot of alts and leveling them all up is such a waste of time seeing as all there is to do is solo.  Low level groups are rarer than silicate loam.  And that "you need to learn to play the class" excuse is meaningless.  Even starting at 80 having never played the class before it would only take only a few hours to get a basic idea of the class and only a few days to become good at it.

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Old 11-10-2009, 03:52 AM   #11
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Gormak wrote:

Gaige wrote:

I like progressing and being 80 for more than two years is not progressing.

What he said.

@ the original poster. Weve been level 80 for 2 years, weve been gearing for level 80 for 2 years. Weve grinded AA at level 80 for 2 years.

Is this your first crack at a MMO? this is simply the way it is. EVERY expansion brings with it bigger numbers, new goals, and, like it or not, Breaking the old level cap, acts as a kind of game reset. Brings everyone back closer to a commonground rather than having wild differences in playing power due to gear. In the context of EQ2, the level 90 cap is certainly overdue.

Said reset is BADLY needed.  Although more to fix the screwed up itemization and everything than to balance players.

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Old 11-10-2009, 04:38 AM   #12
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If the AA system in EQ2 had as many points to aquire as the AA system in EQ1 I wouldn't mind staying at a certain plateau longer.  However these games are designed like a dog race.  We all run around the ring chasing the "bone".  If we catch the bone.......the joy of the game ends really quickly.

But as others have said from a raiding perspective and a character progression perspective I want to keep growing and right now we are just treading water.

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Old 11-10-2009, 04:56 AM   #13
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The reason we are seeing a level Cap raise is about 1/3 the population are people who need to see thier LEVEL go up to see progress, and only really enjoys a game if he feals he is getting somewhere, even if it is just a new back drop on the same treadmill. Another 1/3, have no desire to raise the level cap period, and want a differant treadmill instested of new sceanery. The final 1/3 are some where between the other two groups, where early on they don't want to see a cap increase because they just had one, but as time goes on they eventually do want to see thier level go up.

By raising the cap every other expainsion what they are doing is striking a balance between these two groups and for the most part making the majority happy as the third group swings from one side of the position to the other.

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Old 11-10-2009, 05:21 AM   #14
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I don't mind being at a plateau in a MMO, as long as there is something to advance my character with then.  EQ1 had its AA system, when I quit, because I didn't have time to play a game that was ONLY about grouping, there were like 1200 AA points to acquire.  Most people maybe hit the level cap with a quarter of that many AAs.  In EQ2, you hit the level cap with maybe 80 AAs to go, and most people I know get to the magical 200 in a few weeks to maybe a month.  Usually by that time you are kitted out in full T2 maybe T3, myth etc.  All that is left to raid, if you don't like to raid...  Once that happens I know most of them just reroll.  I am already on my 4th alt to do it.  Gear is nice and all, but I really like to see that there is some reason to actually group.  The systems that are already in place put very little emphasis on endgame grouping for very long.

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Old 11-10-2009, 09:04 AM   #15
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a new set of levels every so often resets the equipment and master spell bar for those of us who can't raid. otherwise we soloers end up as second class citizens. it takes FOR EVER  to get void shards doing the solo daily grind and is so boring i can only bear to do it occasionally, and i'll never get my fabled never mind mythical pet (necro) as i dont raid.

there wont be any soloers left if the level cap doesnt occasionally increase to keep us having a reason to carry on, as the AA system is very slow if you arent in new raid zones doing loads of kills etc.  the more soloers that leave the less subs coming in so the less development can happen.

also for tradeskillers (i am sage ) we need some level increases because once most folk have their master spells no one needs to buy anything any more and at least a level cap rise means spells etc start to sell again.  also better chance of selling the loot you get as at present market not great as everyone using void shard armour etc.  presume most just gets transmuted.

2.5 yrs between level rises seems like a compromise to me.  such a long time it is worth raiders getting their uber loot but eventually the gap in gear lessens as we all plod up another 10 levels and the market transactions increase too, and then the raiders overtake everyone again until the cycle turns again!

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Old 11-10-2009, 08:44 PM   #16
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I rolled a new character right before I took a 6 month hiatus.  I was lvl 30 in 3 days all solo.  I don't mind the level increase since it makes lower out of reach for soloer areas, more favorable when there is no one around to group with.

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Old 11-15-2009, 05:51 AM   #17
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We need more levels as there are no new races, classes, or low to mid level zones.  Here is another expansion focusing on the end game only. 

If there were no more levels, they would have a harder time convincing players to fork out $40 or more to get the expansion.  As it is, I see no reason to waste money on it.  There are two other games out there with expansiosn I would much rather have.

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Old 11-15-2009, 08:26 AM   #18
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Gormak wrote:

Gaige wrote:

I like progressing and being 80 for more than two years is not progressing.

What he said.

@ the original poster. Weve been level 80 for 2 years, weve been gearing for level 80 for 2 years. Weve grinded AA at level 80 for 2 years.

Is this your first crack at a MMO? this is simply the way it is. EVERY expansion brings with it bigger numbers, new goals, and, like it or not, Breaking the old level cap, acts as a kind of game reset. Brings everyone back closer to a commonground rather than having wild differences in playing power due to gear. In the context of EQ2, the level 90 cap is certainly overdue.

Not every MMO increases the level cap ad infinitum.  And really, within 2-3 months, the great wave of folks will be 90 for and have another 21+ month wait for level 100.  Levels are just making numbers bigger.  They allow the devs to reset itemization which is a happy plus, but levels aren't anywhere near necessary in a MMO.

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Old 11-15-2009, 03:41 PM   #19
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This makes me wonder if one day there could be an MMO where the exp is invisible, and leveling was based on something other than simply exp earned, so people wouldn't just grind all day anyway. And while we're at it, combat was more realistic, in that it wasn't hitpoint-based, so if you slash someone with a sword and they don't block/dodge, they are going to be seriously wounded. I guess bottom line is it would be interesting to see an MMO based on something other than the classic D&D-style mechanics that it seems every game uses.

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Old 11-15-2009, 03:59 PM   #20
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[email protected] wrote:

This makes me wonder if one day there could be an MMO where the exp is invisible, and leveling was based on something other than simply exp earned, so people wouldn't just grind all day anyway.

To get that is to try the sandbox MMOs, which unfortunately are poorly developed with maybe 1000 players tops.

Don't care about the levels but would prefer ranks for achievements, as ranks don't need to change every one or two expansions (no numbers to chase, just the title). The carrot for ranks is to achieve it, much like that elusive Artifact Raider suffix for doing 30 HQs.

When folks look at EQ2 and see the game will be level 90 and starting new they'll balk at the idea of soloing to there. Ranks don't have that problem, there's no mumber to groan about getting, too.

Time to put a stop to racing to the top and actually spending more time customizing our mains, not keep rerolling alts to stay interested once we reached a cap. EQ2 suffers awfully from altitis.

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Old 11-15-2009, 04:39 PM   #21
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[email protected] wrote:

This makes me wonder if one day there could be an MMO where the exp is invisible, and leveling was based on something other than simply exp earned, so people wouldn't just grind all day anyway.

Mm, two words for you...  Ultima Online.  I loved that game.  *siiigh*  Their skill and (mostly) classless system was divine.  WTB their mount system (mounting/unmounting, more like a "pet" that you can name, etc.), as well!

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Old 11-15-2009, 06:51 PM   #22
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I can't wait for the Secret World, which will likely bethe end of my time in Norrath.

"There will be neither levels, nor classes in the game; instead, the character building will be skill-based. This way, the developers plan to avoid level grinding, allowing new players to join the game more easily. The player characters will be customizable to a large degree, particularly in their choice of clothing, weapons (which range from shotguns to swords and can be customized and upgraded), and the supernatural powers they acquire."

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Old 11-15-2009, 07:27 PM   #23
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ranlaen wrote:

Ok apart from fact that every 2nd xpac means new levels tradition is there really any point to it.

Surely as TSO shown us people will grind AA and new gear to get better.Why do we need levels on top of that.

I think all this new levels is one of the killing points for new and returning players even if you make the levels faster.People just get disheartened to know it will mean 90 levels to go and find a newer fresher mmorpg .

First impression means a lot .Go to sites like mmorpg.com and others like them there a lot of intrest in EQ2 as an alternative mmorpg but one of the common questions is this " am i too late to start playing EQ2 as it has 30 more levels then original" .imagine now it will be 40 more.

And honestly i don't see what more levels will do for the game.Harder encounters requiring new AA works the same and keeps people busy.less people ingame worried about having to spend time getting every single peice of their gear upgrade.

Yes with TSO many upgraded their gear (which is good .xpac should mean better stuff to look forward to) but at least you could still rely a bit on your old gear if you take the non raiding option for a new xpac and not be forced back into grinding instances or raids.

I didn't buy TSO and took a year long break from the game because it didn't have any level increases. So, they lost at least one long term player because of that.

They have to have periodic level increases otherwise people will level up their AAs in content they can crush quickly (ie older expansions) rather than current content. It is a mechanism to force people into current content.

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Old 11-15-2009, 07:30 PM   #24
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Kigneer wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

This makes me wonder if one day there could be an MMO where the exp is invisible, and leveling was based on something other than simply exp earned, so people wouldn't just grind all day anyway.

To get that is to try the sandbox MMOs, which unfortunately are poorly developed with maybe 1000 players tops.

Don't care about the levels but would prefer ranks for achievements, as ranks don't need to change every one or two expansions (no numbers to chase, just the title). The carrot for ranks is to achieve it, much like that elusive Artifact Raider suffix for doing 30 HQs.

When folks look at EQ2 and see the game will be level 90 and starting new they'll balk at the idea of soloing to there. Ranks don't have that problem, there's no mumber to groan about getting, too.

Time to put a stop to racing to the top and actually spending more time customizing our mains, not keep rerolling alts to stay interested once we reached a cap. EQ2 suffers awfully from altitis.

You want to group with players who are of "level", but still geared in stuff from 5 expansions back? At least with regular level increases you can be reasonably assured that other people you play with will at least meet minimum standards in that regard due to the way the game is designed.

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Old 11-15-2009, 08:13 PM   #25
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By adding new levels, they allow room for us to grow without having to come up with ridiculous new mechanics such as the crit mit BS we saw during TSO.  T8 gear is already way the heck out of whack compared to the rest of the game.  People can max out most of their important stats if they find the right gear, and if they stayed at 80 for another expansion, it would only lead to more sideways developement that would come back to bite SOE in the butt later on when they do raise the cap and find that they've got crit mit, double spell attack, super hyper dodge counters, extreme gnoll bane, or whatever else they could possibly come up with that they'd have to balance and worry about. 

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Old 11-15-2009, 08:36 PM   #26
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[email protected] wrote:

By adding new levels, they allow room for us to grow without having to come up with ridiculous new mechanics such as the crit mit BS we saw during TSO.

Actually adding "B.S." like crit mit to T9 gear would help solve a lot of problems. Folks can play T8 content with T8 gear, but need T9 gear to complete T9 content. I mean who really expects to clear an expansion with their current gear except avatar-killing guilds?

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Old 11-15-2009, 09:00 PM   #27
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Kigneer wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

This makes me wonder if one day there could be an MMO where the exp is invisible, and leveling was based on something other than simply exp earned, so people wouldn't just grind all day anyway.

To get that is to try the sandbox MMOs, which unfortunately are poorly developed with maybe 1000 players tops.

Don't care about the levels but would prefer ranks for achievements, as ranks don't need to change every one or two expansions (no numbers to chase, just the title). The carrot for ranks is to achieve it, much like that elusive Artifact Raider suffix for doing 30 HQs.

When folks look at EQ2 and see the game will be level 90 and starting new they'll balk at the idea of soloing to there. Ranks don't have that problem, there's no mumber to groan about getting, too.

Time to put a stop to racing to the top and actually spending more time customizing our mains, not keep rerolling alts to stay interested once we reached a cap. EQ2 suffers awfully from altitis.

A rank system is still a grind, just grinding quests instead of mobs.  Players would still have to look to complete a certain number of quests (of which many would most likely be kill X numbers of X creature).  It's the same as a level grind just a different name with a different thing to chase.

Overall, every MMO and every video game you play needs some sort of progression, level/rank/gear/skill, to keep players interested.

To the OP, if they didn't increase level then they'd increase AA or gear or something.  New players are always going to be left behind when an older game adds expansions rather than the company opening a whole new game.  I was lucky enough to have a few freinds re-start after a break when I started playing a year ago.  They had high level characters that helped me level.  Anyone who doesn't have this, or doesn't get into a guild with players who will help them will most likely get left behind with every expansion.

At least with this expansion they are hoping that the new starting city will appeal to new players looking to start fresh.  They are doing things with it specifically to draw in new players (can't remember everything but one was a smaller trial download).

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Old 11-15-2009, 09:12 PM   #28
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[email protected] wrote:

This makes me wonder if one day there could be an MMO where the exp is invisible, and leveling was based on something other than simply exp earned, so people wouldn't just grind all day anyway. And while we're at it, combat was more realistic, in that it wasn't hitpoint-based, so if you slash someone with a sword and they don't block/dodge, they are going to be seriously wounded. I guess bottom line is it would be interesting to see an MMO based on something other than the classic D&D-style mechanics that it seems every game uses.

FF14 is confirmed to be a new mmo experience without lvling :p

I hope it wont be anything like monster hunter though <_<

Need more ways to get stronger, instead of just gear and skill ...

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Old 11-16-2009, 02:47 AM   #29
ke'la

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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I can't wait for the Secret World, which will likely bethe end of my time in Norrath.

"There will be neither levels, nor classes in the game; instead, the character building will be skill-based. This way, the developers plan to avoid level grinding, allowing new players to join the game more easily. The player characters will be customizable to a large degree, particularly in their choice of clothing, weapons (which range from shotguns to swords and can be customized and upgraded), and the supernatural powers they acquire."

Sounds like Pre-NGE SWG, we all know how successful that game was.

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Old 11-16-2009, 03:09 AM   #30
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Also TSO was by FAR the worst expansion to date.

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