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Old 12-22-2008, 02:34 PM   #151
Caethre

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Noaani wrote:

The part no one has answered though.

Why should a player, any player, be given a short cut through progression?

OOC.

They shouldn't. No-one is asking for that, if you actually read what they are saying. Ok, maybe one or two posters have some views in that direction, but not the bulk.

Progression is a "good thing", for all playstyles. Nothing should be "mine, now, I want I want" for any playstyle, I also agree. I am unsure why people who feel the scaling of difficulty is wrong are always summarized as "wanting no progression" by some raiders, it is by and large totally untrue.

In my opinion, it is just the scaling of difficulty that may be wrong. Heroic progression should be straightforward, across the board. I could use the word "EASY". That does not mean "for free" or "without any effort", but it may seem like that to those with hardcore raiding perspectives. Dirty word as that is to many raiders, that is the bottom line here - the whole scale FOR HEROIC CONTENT could be one notch down in my view.

In my view, heroic content should be aimed straight at heroic players, with typical levels of heroic player ability, gear and such directly in mind. It should not require the types of attitudes to gaming held by the typical raider, because frankly, many casual style heroic players are ... just not like that! (and do not enjoy it). I am quite atypical for a casual-style player, in that I min/max my characters, but most do not and never will, and if you tell them to, they just take no notice. Who is allowed to have fun in the expansion they paid for - in the content specifically designed for them (supposedly) - are they included? I believe they should be. This is the crux of this debate. Grouping progression is a wonderful thing, yes, but it should not require the same kind of attitude that the kind of players who raid have, because that is not actually representative of reality. At least not my reality.

That is my feedback, and that of many others. Obviously it is the very opposite of yours, but no-one says we have to agree. SMILEY

That said, that was not the subject of my post at all, so I'm not sure why you quoted me specifically when you made that point. I was referring to the lack of content in TSO specifically aimed at SMALL GROUPS, and indicating that it was almost all aimed at FULL GROUPS. I did note that the reason there is less complaint about this than there could be, is due to the option being present for mentoring into TSO instances.

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Old 12-22-2008, 02:39 PM   #152
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

That said, that was not the subject of my post at all, so I'm not sure why you quoted me specifically when you made that point. I was referring to the lack of content in TSO specifically aimed at SMALL GROUPS, and indicating that it was almost all aimed at FULL GROUPS. I did note that the reason there is less complaint about this than there could be, is due to the option being present for mentoring into TSO instances.

What content has any expansion had that was specifically aimed at small groups?

Some expansions have had content that was do-able by small groups, such as Nest of the Great Egg in KoS, but TSO gives you OoA and Scion, both of which are easier than Nest was at 70, and both of which can be/are being duo'd.

Edit: its easy to say there is no small group content if you havn't actually looked for any.

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Old 12-22-2008, 02:42 PM   #153
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Noaani wrote:

The part no one has answered though.

Why should a player, any player, be given a short cut through progression?

OOC.

They shouldn't. No-one is asking for that, if you actually read what they are saying. Ok, maybe one or two posters have some views in that direction, but not the bulk.

Progression is a "good thing", for all playstyles. Nothing should be "mine, now, I want I want" for any playstyle, I also agree. I am unsure why people who feel the scaling of difficulty is wrong are always summarized as "wanting no progression" by some raiders, it is by and large totally untrue.

In my opinion, it is just the scaling of difficulty that may be wrong. Heroic progression should be straightforward, across the board. I could use the word "EASY". That does not mean "for free" or "without any effort", but it may seem like that to those with hardcore raiding perspectives. Dirty word as that is to many raiders, that is the bottom line here - the whole scale FOR HEROIC CONTENT could be one notch down in my view.

In my view, heroic content should be aimed straight at heroic players, with typical levels of heroic player ability, gear and such directly in mind. It should not require the types of attitudes to gaming held by the typical raider, because frankly, many casual style heroic players are ... just not like that! (and do not enjoy it). I am quite atypical for a casual-style player, in that I min/max my characters, but most do not and never will, and if you tell them to, they just take no notice. Who is allowed to have fun in the expansion they paid for - in the content specifically designed for them (supposedly) - are they included? I believe they should be. This is the crux of this debate. Grouping progression is a wonderful thing, yes, but it should not require the same kind of attitude that the kind of players who raid have, because that is not actually representative of reality. At least not my reality.

That is my feedback, and that of many others. Obviously it is the very opposite of yours, but no-one says we have to agree.

That said, that was not the subject of my post at all, so I'm not sure why you quoted me specifically when you made that point. I was referring to the lack of content in TSO specifically aimed at SMALL GROUPS, and indicating that it was almost all aimed at FULL GROUPS. I did note that the reason there is less complaint about this than there could be, is due to the option being present for mentoring into TSO instances.

I agree that TSO really does not have much for "small groups"...although with proper gear/classes some of the instances can be 5-manned.   I believe TSO does offer good progression and the instances are scaled properly.  At the easy end you have Abbey,Scion and Forge that can be pugged with MC/RoK legendary....working your way up to the ones that really require raid gear.

TSO is pretty much a group centric expansion...but it offers something for all "levels" of group.

Pugs failing to complete the likes of Abbey and Scion have only the players themselves to blame.

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Old 12-22-2008, 03:19 PM   #154
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Noaani wrote:

....but TSO gives you OoA and Scion, .... both of which can be/are being duo'd.

Edit: its easy to say there is no small group content if you havn't actually looked for any.

OOC.

I've no comment on OOA as I haven't tried it, but in my experience, Scion cannot be cleared in by an average duo at level 80 by typical heroic players. What raiders can do by having gear that trivializes the content is ENTIRELY and TOTALLY irrelevant to this thread.

Sorry, I'm not going to buy that. Heh, I can see now someone responding "well I have, with my swashbuckler and my mystic friend, wearing just crafted .. blah blah". Yes, we hear such "stories" all the time, but sorry, still not going to buy it, people talk rubbish and tell lies, and that comes under that category.

As for not looked, incorrect, I have. Indeed, I have actually duo'd part of Scion (and part of three or four of the other instances) as my standard templar/paladin duo, and with a monk/illusionist duo too, but only by mentoring down and then unmentoring, to make the content scale better to a duo. The fact that that works, for far reduced rewards (basically just the one shard) is the one fantastic saving grace for TSO for small group players. That said, some of those nameds still severely kick us over every single time, and we cannot beat them even mentored down, sometimes even to being GREY, but they are not designed for duos, so that isn't much of a surprise.

Forums are for feedback, and mine, like others, is I would like to see more content specifically designed for and targetted at small groups. SMILEY

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Old 12-22-2008, 03:24 PM   #155
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I've no comment on OOA as I haven't tried it, but in my experience, Scion cannot be cleared in by an average duo at level 80 by typical heroic players. What raiders can do by having gear that trivializes the content is ENTIRELY and TOTALLY irrelevant to this thread.

Nest of the Great Egg was being duo'd by raiders months before non raiders were running it with less than 5 characters. This is all I have to say on this matter, figure the rest out for yourself.

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Old 12-22-2008, 05:05 PM   #156
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There's nothing wrong with having at least 1 instance that can be solo/duo'd by raiders at the beginning of the expansion and by non-raiders by the middle-end of the expansion. 

Also, the void zones will be receiving their own void shard quests in an upcoming game update so even small groups will be able to get some shards easily.

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Old 12-22-2008, 11:33 PM   #157
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Yella wrote:

If you play casually, you won't have that team. You might be in a small guild with other casual players but that doesnt make a team. Chances are that regularly those folk won't have a full group, and chances are when they on occasion do, they will have low levels of experience in a scripted encounter, which typically ends in defeat no matter how skilled they might be individually.

Also, you are confusing a lack of a team with soloing, which is not in any shape or form the same thing. There is some solo content in TSO, there is a ton of content for organized full groups, there is nothing inbetween, and that is what the root problem is.

You did not give any compelling reason why content suited for those people shouldnt have been included. Not including it was simply a dumb move, since it excluded a chunk of the playerbase. And it is a move that the game is going to pay with by bleeding subscriptions.

The above post explains it better than most others do. Some people will *never* understand that some other players are not interested in, do not want, will never ever EVER be in being in big guilds, into hardcore raiding, etc, and instead enjoy the informality of tiny guilds or even being unguilded, and grouping with pickup players, etc, and still love the MMORPG experience (even if for some casual players, they choose to HUNT solo)..

Fel ... what you wrote in that paragraph describes ME. I'm not in a big guild & don't like being in them, I don't like raiding, I like grouping in PUGs, I even spend most of my time solo.

Yet, I fiercely disagree with Yella. I think Yella is completely wrong.

Go figure, eh?

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Old 12-23-2008, 12:07 AM   #158
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Yella wrote:

If you play casually, you won't have that team. You might be in a small guild with other casual players but that doesnt make a team. Chances are that regularly those folk won't have a full group, and chances are when they on occasion do, they will have low levels of experience in a scripted encounter, which typically ends in defeat no matter how skilled they might be individually.

Also, you are confusing a lack of a team with soloing, which is not in any shape or form the same thing. There is some solo content in TSO, there is a ton of content for organized full groups, there is nothing inbetween, and that is what the root problem is.

You did not give any compelling reason why content suited for those people shouldnt have been included. Not including it was simply a dumb move, since it excluded a chunk of the playerbase. And it is a move that the game is going to pay with by bleeding subscriptions.

The above post explains it better than most others do. Some people will *never* understand that some other players are not interested in, do not want, will never ever EVER be in being in big guilds, into hardcore raiding, etc, and instead enjoy the informality of tiny guilds or even being unguilded, and grouping with pickup players, etc, and still love the MMORPG experience (even if for some casual players, they choose to HUNT solo)..

Fel ... what you wrote in that paragraph describes ME. I'm not in a big guild & don't like being in them, I don't like raiding, I like grouping in PUGs, I even spend most of my time solo.

Yet, I fiercely disagree with Yella. I think Yella is completely wrong.

Go figure, eh?

None of the discriptions of a "casual player" I have seen on these forums (even with 3 threads about it) have provided me with any reason why a casual player can not clear TSO instances.

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Old 12-23-2008, 11:41 AM   #159
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Noaani wrote:

None of the discriptions of a "casual player" I have seen on these forums (even with 3 threads about it) have provided me with any reason why a casual player can not clear TSO instances.

Agreed.

However, I have learned that:

-having a single fabled item..even if its from a solo quest reward  = hardcore

-not being able to duo the TSO instances means they are not casual friendly

-working as a team and communicating with your groupmates = hardcore

-having to learn the correct strat for the TSO instance encounters = hardcore

-learning to form good balanced groups = hardcore.

-it must of been a dream that I completed the likes of Abbey and Scion with anyting less that VP raid gear.

-that somehow needing a 2nd healer = group sucks.

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Old 12-23-2008, 01:30 PM   #160
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Players have to learn to adapt.  Either adapt your playstyle a bit to be able to do the content made available in each expansion or go somewhere else.

The amount of guilds out there with 7 people in them, 3 who actually log on that refuse to PUG and only play with underequipped roleplaying toons who refuse to group across lore racial boundaries are few and way far between.

To expect SOE to make content for that playstyle is silly.  Its even worse because those super casual players are such a minority yet you always hear them referencing raiders as the anti-christ, even though there are more raiders than that subset of extremely casual anti-groupers.

I'm sorry that you feel the heroic label instantly means tank and spank with no thought or gear required, but the clamoring by all of these non-raiders for amazing gear from heroic instances means that heroic content is going to get harder to try to keep some risk vs reward factor in this game.

Don't expect to duo content that regularly drops raid quality fabled on an 18 hour lockout.  Just another case of players getting what they asked for and then crying about it.

The fact of the matter is that the majority of these instances are ezmode and do not require raid gear or even very much thought.  I'm sorry if you're failing them with your undergeared roleplaying trio.  Thankfully your casual though and you get enjoyment out of the game in other ways, so your inability to clear content shouldn't even be a blip on your enjoyment radar.

Also:  Anyone with multiple lvl 80 adventure classes and multiple lvl 80 tradeskillers is NOT casual.  At all.  In any sense of the word.  I'm sorry, but that is definately indictive of a hardcore mentality.

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Old 12-23-2008, 09:36 PM   #161
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Noaani wrote:

....but TSO gives you OoA and Scion, .... both of which can be/are being duo'd.

Edit: its easy to say there is no small group content if you havn't actually looked for any.

OOC.

I've no comment on OOA as I haven't tried it, but in my experience, Scion cannot be cleared in by an average duo at level 80 by typical heroic players. What raiders can do by having gear that trivializes the content is ENTIRELY and TOTALLY irrelevant to this thread.

I've cleared through Scion of Ice in a group of four with no raid gear on at least one of my characters so far.  We had a brand new level 80 berserker in mastercrafted gear tank Obelisk of Ahk'Zul for a group of five.  I've been in pickup groups across a few characters now where we cleared several of the early Shadow Odyssey dungeons - only one of my characters has any significant gear at all.

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Old 12-23-2008, 09:42 PM   #162
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Kendricke wrote:

I've cleared through Scion of Ice in a group of four with no raid gear on at least one of my characters so far.  We had a brand new level 80 berserker in mastercrafted gear tank Obelisk of Ahk'Zul for a group of five.  I've been in pickup groups across a few characters now where we cleared several of the early Shadow Odyssey dungeons - only one of my characters has any significant gear at all.

Obviously you haven't read the whole thread!

We've told them that we are able to clear these zones in the same/worse gear than what they have, but that doesn't matter, because they are casual.

We've told them that we are able to clear these zones in the same/worse group makup than what they have, but that doesn't matter, because they are casual.

The thing with these casual players is not about equipment, or about the number of players in the group, they simply seem to always zone in to a harder version of instances than what the rest of us have avalible.

At least, thats what I have deducted from these threads.

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Old 12-23-2008, 10:43 PM   #163
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Noaani wrote:

Kendricke wrote:

I've cleared through Scion of Ice in a group of four with no raid gear on at least one of my characters so far.  We had a brand new level 80 berserker in mastercrafted gear tank Obelisk of Ahk'Zul for a group of five.  I've been in pickup groups across a few characters now where we cleared several of the early Shadow Odyssey dungeons - only one of my characters has any significant gear at all.

Obviously you haven't read the whole thread!

We've told them that we are able to clear these zones in the same/worse gear than what they have, but that doesn't matter, because they are casual.

We've told them that we are able to clear these zones in the same/worse group makup than what they have, but that doesn't matter, because they are casual.

The thing with these casual players is not about equipment, or about the number of players in the group, they simply seem to always zone in to a harder version of instances than what the rest of us have avalible.

At least, thats what I have deducted from these threads.

You must be correct as I have deducted the same thing. I have also deducted that the casual player must run on auto-follow which gives them opportunity to complain constantly on forums.Sadly the new zones are hard to beat while on auto-follow which honestly is something SoE should look into and rectify. One point you failed to mention though is the most important aspect of being a 'new age casual' player is a negative attitude and spreading it through forums.

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Old 12-24-2008, 08:52 AM   #164
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bks6721 wrote:

Buttcliffe wrote:

I'm glad they upped the level of difficulty.  People wanting things easy ruins games.

Thats fine but I don't think the EASY zones should be as hard as RE2 or Vek.

not sure if you've tried those recently with the new aa's and the damage changes.... they're easy.  If people want mindless zones there's a few foam-walled bubble-wrapped instances in ROK for them

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Old 12-24-2008, 12:28 PM   #165
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Meirril wrote:

I'm just wondering, does anyone think that the group instances in TSO are ment for casual players?

Is there any actual casual content in TSO?

My paladin is well equipped in RoK era instance gear. I've got half my masters, and the rest are adept 3 spells. I travel with the same group of people that I got most of this gear with. They are similarly equipped.

And yet, anytime we wander by any of the Befallen instances we constantly beat our heads against a wall. We'll be doing fine and then suddenly a named will pull a trick and I go from green to dead in about 2 seconds. This is traveling with 2 healers.

It isn't like we haven't read up on the fight strats. Even with solid information, the mob crits and boom I'm dead. I thought crit mittigation wasn't suppose to be an issue until you got to tier 2 raids? Why is it an issue in instanced content?

So far, I've found that 3 of the instances are do-able for a casual group in RoK gear. Does that mean we're suppose to farm 2 of them for shards until we can afford the tier 2 shard armor? The tier 1 shard armor is a downgrade for my equipment! Heck, most of the tier 2 shard armor isn't as good as half my equipment except for the crit mittigation.

So, what is the deal? Was I suppose to go raiding before TSO came out so I'd be ready for group content?

I have to link this post here for everyone to see.

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=439527

The op also made a post in the tradeskill section. Would like to see tradeskill instance tokens tradeable for void shards.

I honestly see the connection here. And i do think we will see some of the easy mode people leave.

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Old 12-24-2008, 02:07 PM   #166
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Noaani wrote:

We've told them that we are able to clear these zones in the same/worse gear than what they have, but that doesn't matter, because they are casual.

We've told them that we are able to clear these zones in the same/worse group makup than what they have, but that doesn't matter, because they are casual.

The thing with these casual players is not about equipment, or about the number of players in the group, they simply seem to always zone in to a harder version of instances than what the rest of us have avalible.

At least, thats what I have deducted from these threads.

I've also discovered that being in a guild group somehow magikally conveys competence, integrity, friendliness, no lag, & other wondrous perks, while those who are FORCED TO PUG have no such benefits & must perforce succumb to the blind vagaries of fate.

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Old 12-24-2008, 06:33 PM   #167
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zaneluke wrote:

I ... do think we will see some of the easy mode people leave.

OOC.

This one quoted sentence is something poignant.

Time will tell if it turns out to be true or not. I suspect it may just turn out to be fine with the only complainants being insignificant (in a statistical sense), in which case nothing would come of it. However, if it did genuinely cause a noticeable number of the most casual-style players to feel excluded from content and therefore just quietly leave, something would need to be done. That said, I have read elsewhere that SOE are looking at possibly adding some more casual-style solo/small group content to TSO, and that may reduce or remove most of the concerns over that demographic anyway. I have no crystal ball and no access to account renewals and cancellations data, so I've no idea, but I am sure SOE will be watching such things carefully, as standard business practice.

What is true, is that for every forum-jockey who hates casual players, despises "easy mode" players and endlessly whines about "dumbing down", for every poster who loves to post entirely for the purpose of attempting to ridicule what they see as a "lesser" playstyle than their own, and for every poster who simply cannot tolerate reading feedback that they just don't agree with and feels the need to attempt to ridicule the posters of said feedback (rather than either ignoring it or making adult posts on the actual subject itself), there are twenty or more others who never come to the forums. This is partly because they have no interest in wading through the opinions of such people!

Like most players, I play to have fun. As I said earlier, I actually quite like TSO, and as such I am not in the group who are unhappy in this regard, but I know some others are. I have no idea how many, but I am not picking up that level of discontent amongst the constituency in which I move. However, if enough others far more "casual-style" than I have ever been, silently disappear, that would be very bad for the game.

The forums are not just for the players who actually want the game to be super-hard - some of us actively play to relax and have fun, not to be stressed, and prefer things not-so-hard. This is simply about what people want from their gaming, and it is a vast and wide spectrum where not everyone is going to be pleased all the time, that's life. SOE try to cater to all, as I would too if I were running that business, that's just good business.

So, certainly, this thread has merit, because if someone is unhappy and wants to give feedback, that IS what the official forums are actually for!

But those you refer to as the "easy mode" people (which includes a whole range of different kinds of folks) are players, and SOE customers too, and they are entitled to a voice on the forums without having to endure attempted ridicule. I am not referring to the quoted poster there, I am referring to some of the totally unhelpful and unconstructive posts above that, where players of one point of view are just attempting to publically ridicule those of the opposing view.

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Old 12-24-2008, 08:05 PM   #168
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I am referring to some of the totally unhelpful and unconstructive posts above that, where players of one point of view are just attempting to publically ridicule those of the opposing view.

That might not happen in threads if you didn't always have to apply such a negative stigma to raiders in all of your posts.  Your posting style makes people post defensively, and it always has.

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Old 12-26-2008, 11:01 PM   #169
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

In my view, heroic content should be aimed straight at heroic players, with typical levels of heroic player ability, gear and such directly in mind. It should not require the types of attitudes to gaming held by the typical raider, because frankly, many casual style heroic players are ... just not like that! (and do not enjoy it).

Many non-raiders (or casual players) would find it insulting that you assume they're fundamentally inept compared to raiders.

This is a great expansion for people who like a decent challenge but don't have time to assemble 23 other people and raid a week for every new item. I really hope it stays that way.

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Old 12-27-2008, 05:54 PM   #170
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I have read elsewhere that SOE are looking at possibly adding some more casual-style solo/small group content to TSO

Just to be clear, I know of nobody who would seriously object to MORE content. But I know a LOT of people -- of whom I'm one -- who would very strongly object if the CURRENT content were made "easier" in an attempt to "do something" for the players who are, for one reason or another, having issues.

What is true, is that for every forum-jockey who hates casual players

What can we say is "true" for every "forum-jockey" who "hates hard-core players"? Because I'm sure we can say something, & I think we both know such people inhabit these forums. The antipathy to which you refer is NOT a one-way street. Quite frankly, my own perception is that so-called "hard-core players" & "raiders" take more flack & more attacks than do any so-called "casual" player. Perhaps you think the opposite, which only proves that different people have different perceptions -- which isn't very helpful.

despises "easy mode" players and endlessly whines about "dumbing down", for every poster who loves to post entirely for the purpose of attempting to ridicule what they see as a "lesser" playstyle than their own, and for every poster who simply cannot tolerate reading feedback that they just don't agree with and feels the need to attempt to ridicule the posters of said feedback

It's interesting that you conflate several very, VERY different attitudes & motives for counter-protesting into one big stew of rudeness. I think your own prejudice is showing, frankly, if you think that merely saying one doesn't like "dumbed down content" is precisely the same as saying that one "despises 'easy mode' players", or that those who dislike "dumbed down content" are effectively trolls who post only for the joy of attacking another person.

Quite frankly, Fel, I find your overly broad conflation of those disparate attitudes somewhat offensive  & just so you know, it's quite easy to infer that you very much dislike "hard-core" players; even if that inference isn't true, I think someone would have just as much claim that you hate "hard-core players" as you have for implying that every "hard-core" player is a rude, trolling jerk. Perhaps you didn't mean to imply that; however, in MY view -- which is just as valid as yours -- that's exactly what you did.

I am referring to some of the totally unhelpful and unconstructive posts above that

You know what's TOTALLY unhelpful?

Player A comes to the forums to complain about their group wiping in Scions of Ice, & in his/her very first post, claims that Scion can't be handled by anyone other than "hard-core raiders."

Player B then comes along & says, "Well, I don't get it, because I'm not a hard-core raider, & I've been running these instances in PUGs & not having trouble, so I don't know what you're trying to say here."

Player C then pops in with the opinion that Player B is obviously lying because he/she has a Fabled item (the fact that the item in question was obtained in heroic content is irrelevant, apparently) & obviously has tons of twinked out friends & only runs with totally Mythical'd groups & so on. Player D chimes in to say that those of who aren't having problems just don't understand the issues others are having -- you know, sort of like saying, "It's a casual thing, you wouldn't understand!", which is pure intellectual laziness -- & never will, because all "those people" are soooooo "hardcore."

I've seen ALL of those attitudes on these forums: people who come in whining, then get offended when someone who isn't having troubles trys to offer suggestions. So, yea Fel, you're right that there's a LOT of un-helpfulness going on, but you're simply wrong to imply that it's all coming from one side of the street.

Maybe it would be better if people on BOTH sides simply quit attacking each other, because, really, aren't we all players? Aren't we all in somewhat of the same boat? Does it do ANY good to go attacking people simply for having a disparate opinion? No. Does it do ANY good to attack someone who tries to help someone who has a mis-perception about the game & it's difficulty? No.

So why do people do it??? & why do people on both sides not only tolerate it but even encourage it??? I think a lot of it has to do with these two utterly meaningless, noxious little buzz-words: "casual" & "hard-core", & I think we'd all be a LOT better off consigning both terms to the scrap-heap of useless rhetoric. I mean, it would help a great deal if we had an objective, nailed-down definition of those two terms as they apply to MMOs, but I think we've all seen that's not true at all -- because it seems as if EVERYONE wants to claim, or at least imply, that he/she is "casual", & it's all "those people" who are "hard-core."

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Old 12-27-2008, 06:37 PM   #171
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Theres nothing hardcore or casual about being good at a video game.  Some are and some arn't.  Same way some people begin a sport and are phenominal while some people can try and try but, they just can't hack it.  I mean you could try to teach me soccer all day long, I'll never be worth a [Removed for Content] at that sport.  Unfortunatly the same could be said for video games.  Unless they stand alone as some special thing that everybody can be good at, thats a bit candyland-ish though.  Try to teach a room of people music and just say, all you have to do is hit these keys on the piano.  Can you expect everyone to perform as good or will some just kinda, not get it in the end no matter what?

Dissecting this discussion pretty heavily for a rather simple concept.  It's the same way that I could do a zone on my wizard and present a parse.  Give my login info to 5 other players and let them play my toon through the same group/zone.  Do you really think its going to all come out the same, or will we see 6 players who have varied skill levels at playing a wizard?

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Old 12-28-2008, 09:43 PM   #172
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zaneluke wrote:

Meirril wrote:

I'm just wondering, does anyone think that the group instances in TSO are ment for casual players?

Is there any actual casual content in TSO?

My paladin is well equipped in RoK era instance gear. I've got half my masters, and the rest are adept 3 spells. I travel with the same group of people that I got most of this gear with. They are similarly equipped.

And yet, anytime we wander by any of the Befallen instances we constantly beat our heads against a wall. We'll be doing fine and then suddenly a named will pull a trick and I go from green to dead in about 2 seconds. This is traveling with 2 healers.

It isn't like we haven't read up on the fight strats. Even with solid information, the mob crits and boom I'm dead. I thought crit mittigation wasn't suppose to be an issue until you got to tier 2 raids? Why is it an issue in instanced content?

So far, I've found that 3 of the instances are do-able for a casual group in RoK gear. Does that mean we're suppose to farm 2 of them for shards until we can afford the tier 2 shard armor? The tier 1 shard armor is a downgrade for my equipment! Heck, most of the tier 2 shard armor isn't as good as half my equipment except for the crit mittigation.

So, what is the deal? Was I suppose to go raiding before TSO came out so I'd be ready for group content?

I have to link this post here for everyone to see.

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=439527

The op also made a post in the tradeskill section. Would like to see tradeskill instance tokens tradeable for void shards.

I honestly see the connection here. And i do think we will see some of the easy mode people leave.

Yep, void shards. Or coin. Actually 2 different coin rewards. Oh, or maybe the crafting components from any of the TSO instances. Just that everybody locks on to void shards like they are the only possible reward.

Why? Because that thread is about long term viability of tradeskill instances. Any of those rewards would extend their lifespan which right now is about 30 runs and then you'll never touch them again unless you really like doing a 3 hour crafting run for 15g and another 10g-1p of loot rewards. FYI: you could of done rush orders for more coin and a boat load of status.

Oh, and a little update for the rest of you. After farming trash in stances to compete a set of tier 1 shard armor I've discovered that peice for peice it isn't as good as RoK's best instance gear. However, with the 5 peice set bonus it far outshines what RoK could do for an instance runner. Adding another 500 mittigation plus 2% damage reduction with similar avoidance numbers and a huge DPS increase...+mittigation has a huge impact. You would think it would be a 1% increase per point, but its a larger increase than that. With +7 mittigation its more like a 12% increase.

Also my repair bill just went down by a 3rd due to the loss of several fabled items.

With the tier 1 shard armor running instances isn't an issue. So, to answer all the commentors it wasn't a lack of skill. It wasn't a lack of coordination. It wasn't learning the strats. It was a pure gear issue.

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Old 12-29-2008, 05:54 AM   #173
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Meirril wrote:

With the tier 1 shard armor running instances isn't an issue. So, to answer all the commentors it wasn't a lack of skill. It wasn't a lack of coordination. It wasn't learning the strats. It was a pure gear issue.

In order to verify this, run instances for a few days wearing your old gear. I would assume you will find out that its not actually the gear that made all the difference as it is the fact that players have now adjusted to how TSO is, and are aware of the fact that when in an instance, they can't slack off and expect to not die.

Reason I say this is simple, my tank has over 60 void shards and is still running instances in RoK legendary. Just finished tanking Mistmyr Manor, did 2 of the Guks yesterday as well. I could not do Mystmyr Manor the first week of TSO, yet I have not upgraded a single piece of gear on him. Since he is an alt, he also has less than 150 AAs so far.

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Old 12-29-2008, 08:44 AM   #174
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I have read elsewhere that SOE are looking at possibly adding some more casual-style solo/small group content to TSO

Just to be clear, I know of nobody who would seriously object to MORE content. But I know a LOT of people -- of whom I'm one -- who would very strongly object if the CURRENT content were made "easier" in an attempt to "do something" for the players who are, for one reason or another, having issues.

What is true, is that for every forum-jockey who hates casual players

What can we say is "true" for every "forum-jockey" who "hates hard-core players"? Because I'm sure we can say something, & I think we both know such people inhabit these forums. The antipathy to which you refer is NOT a one-way street. Quite frankly, my own perception is that so-called "hard-core players" & "raiders" take more flack & more attacks than do any so-called "casual" player. Perhaps you think the opposite, which only proves that different people have different perceptions -- which isn't very helpful.

despises "easy mode" players and endlessly whines about "dumbing down", for every poster who loves to post entirely for the purpose of attempting to ridicule what they see as a "lesser" playstyle than their own, and for every poster who simply cannot tolerate reading feedback that they just don't agree with and feels the need to attempt to ridicule the posters of said feedback

It's interesting that you conflate several very, VERY different attitudes & motives for counter-protesting into one big stew of rudeness. I think your own prejudice is showing, frankly, if you think that merely saying one doesn't like "dumbed down content" is precisely the same as saying that one "despises 'easy mode' players", or that those who dislike "dumbed down content" are effectively trolls who post only for the joy of attacking another person.

Quite frankly, Fel, I find your overly broad conflation of those disparate attitudes somewhat offensive  & just so you know, it's quite easy to infer that you very much dislike "hard-core" players; even if that inference isn't true, I think someone would have just as much claim that you hate "hard-core players" as you have for implying that every "hard-core" player is a rude, trolling jerk. Perhaps you didn't mean to imply that; however, in MY view -- which is just as valid as yours -- that's exactly what you did.

I am referring to some of the totally unhelpful and unconstructive posts above that

You know what's TOTALLY unhelpful?

Player A comes to the forums to complain about their group wiping in Scions of Ice, & in his/her very first post, claims that Scion can't be handled by anyone other than "hard-core raiders."

Player B then comes along & says, "Well, I don't get it, because I'm not a hard-core raider, & I've been running these instances in PUGs & not having trouble, so I don't know what you're trying to say here."

Player C then pops in with the opinion that Player B is obviously lying because he/she has a Fabled item (the fact that the item in question was obtained in heroic content is irrelevant, apparently) & obviously has tons of twinked out friends & only runs with totally Mythical'd groups & so on. Player D chimes in to say that those of who aren't having problems just don't understand the issues others are having -- you know, sort of like saying, "It's a casual thing, you wouldn't understand!", which is pure intellectual laziness -- & never will, because all "those people" are soooooo "hardcore."

I've seen ALL of those attitudes on these forums: people who come in whining, then get offended when someone who isn't having troubles trys to offer suggestions. So, yea Fel, you're right that there's a LOT of un-helpfulness going on, but you're simply wrong to imply that it's all coming from one side of the street.

Maybe it would be better if people on BOTH sides simply quit attacking each other, because, really, aren't we all players? Aren't we all in somewhat of the same boat? Does it do ANY good to go attacking people simply for having a disparate opinion? No. Does it do ANY good to attack someone who tries to help someone who has a mis-perception about the game & it's difficulty? No.

So why do people do it??? & why do people on both sides not only tolerate it but even encourage it??? I think a lot of it has to do with these two utterly meaningless, noxious little buzz-words: "casual" & "hard-core", & I think we'd all be a LOT better off consigning both terms to the scrap-heap of useless rhetoric. I mean, it would help a great deal if we had an objective, nailed-down definition of those two terms as they apply to MMOs, but I think we've all seen that's not true at all -- because it seems as if EVERYONE wants to claim, or at least imply, that he/she is "casual", & it's all "those people" who are "hard-core."

At the end of the day what it boils down to is that you will only contemplate content that suits your playstyle. In your world people who have a different playstyle don't count, and providing for their needs is a waste of time. You can sugar coat and rationalize it all you want, but your agenda is pretty clear. You don't really have a clue where the other side is coming from or what their issues are. If you did you would have better suggestions other than what is effectively "be like me".

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Old 12-29-2008, 08:50 AM   #175
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Yella wrote:

If you play casually, you won't have that team. You might be in a small guild with other casual players but that doesnt make a team. Chances are that regularly those folk won't have a full group, and chances are when they on occasion do, they will have low levels of experience in a scripted encounter, which typically ends in defeat no matter how skilled they might be individually.

Also, you are confusing a lack of a team with soloing, which is not in any shape or form the same thing. There is some solo content in TSO, there is a ton of content for organized full groups, there is nothing inbetween, and that is what the root problem is.

You did not give any compelling reason why content suited for those people shouldnt have been included. Not including it was simply a dumb move, since it excluded a chunk of the playerbase. And it is a move that the game is going to pay with by bleeding subscriptions.

The above post explains it better than most others do. Some people will *never* understand that some other players are not interested in, do not want, will never ever EVER be in being in big guilds, into hardcore raiding, etc, and instead enjoy the informality of tiny guilds or even being unguilded, and grouping with pickup players, etc, and still love the MMORPG experience (even if for some casual players, they choose to HUNT solo)..

Fel ... what you wrote in that paragraph describes ME. I'm not in a big guild & don't like being in them, I don't like raiding, I like grouping in PUGs, I even spend most of my time solo.

Yet, I fiercely disagree with Yella. I think Yella is completely wrong.

Go figure, eh?

The difference between you and me is that I play both the hardcore and casual style, in different games. I understand what is important to different playstyles, and I equally understand why catering to all of them is healthy for the game. As soon as you start excluding people the game is eventually going to be the poorer for it. You might not see the price being paid immediately in an obvious way, but it will be paid.

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Old 12-29-2008, 08:56 AM   #176
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Noaani wrote:

None of the discriptions of a "casual player" I have seen on these forums (even with 3 threads about it) have provided me with any reason why a casual player can not clear TSO instances.

Of course casual players can clear instances, no one is saying they can't. What is at issue is the pain required to do so, for most or many of them. When the game ceases to be fun for those people, they will stop playing. When they run out of things to do they will stop playing. There isn't anything inbetween solo and full group play, and what full group play there is requires a level of commitment that a lot of those folk are not going to be willing to invest. The simple answer is to suggest they go elsewhere or become "good", but don't forget that they are paying for keeping EQ2 alive as well. It is not only you.

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Old 12-29-2008, 11:43 AM   #177
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The problem that these so called "casual" players have is that up until now, they've not seen a subtle progression.

Look, in the Kingdom of Sky era for instance, did you see any players complaining that they couldn't clear Halls of Fate at Level 60?  Nope, not one!  Why?  It's very simple, because the "progression" was obvious (the mobs were red!) people realized that they shouldn't be attempting to do that instance.

Even in RoK, you had the same thing.  People didn't run to Maidens Chamber at L70 and cry "It's too hard!".  Why?  Because, once again, it was obvious that you were not supposed to be there.  Mobs were red.

Fast forward to TSO, and now the progression isn't "obvious".  It's very subtle.  The advanced TSO instances were not designed for players at L80, with 120 AA's.  They were designed for players at L80, who have spent some time gearing up in other content, and who have 180 AA's.  The problem is that people aren't looking for subtlety.

As players gear up, gain AA's and continue attempting these instances, the complaints will go away.

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Old 12-29-2008, 12:42 PM   #178
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Banditman wrote:

Look, in the Kingdom of Sky era for instance, did you see any players complaining that they couldn't clear Halls of Fate at Level 60?

Reading this particular part of your post got me thinking. Every piece of content release has had similar complaints.

People complained with DoF that poets was too long, and that orange mobs were never going to be able to be killed by anyone without raid gear. Non raiders with a little determination worked at it, and proved them wrong.

KoS had people complaining that HoF was too hard, and that the mobs hit far too hard for non raid geared tanks. Casual healers leart what the cure button was, and then groups had no issues with it.

Fallen Dynasty had people complaining that Nizara was too hard, but people learnt that a group for a zone like this is not just any 6 players, and that a chanter or second healer will help, tanks also learnt to be careful while pulling, and to tell their healers when they are body pulling. Casual groups were clearing Nizara by EoF.

EoF had groups complaining about the heat damage in CoV. They learnt to fight the names in the room they spawn in, and then they had no issues.

RoK had people complaining about how hard solo mobs were, those people got 40 more achievements, and then started walking over those same solo mobs.

TSO has people complain that there is too mush scripting, but they will learn the scripts, and then excute them without even needing to think about it. They will once again be proven wrong.

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Old 12-29-2008, 12:44 PM   #179
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Yella wrote:

 It is not only you.

*I* am not the one trying to get content that is being enjoyed by thousands of people changed to suit my playstyle and ability...

~Just sayin.

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Old 12-29-2008, 02:56 PM   #180
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Yella wrote:

There isn't anything inbetween solo and full group play, and what full group play there is requires a level of commitment that a lot of those folk are not going to be willing to invest.

What kind of commitment are you talking about? You log on do a Lev 70-79 chat (insert level and class here) LFG for shard instances. Boom you get a group, run one of the easier instances. They can be done in an hour. Weekends? do some of the tougher ones that take 2-3 hours. Boom. Over a peroid of time you toon WILL progress with gear and you will be doing harder instances faster.

But honestly i think you are looking for that 6th thing to do. 

#1 solo content, #2 group content, #3 raid content,#4 tradeskill content,#5 tradeskill group content. And now i think we need to make sure that other over looked group needs content too. that #6 inbetween solo and group play. Then a new expansion comes out and the duos start asking for duo content.......

I think we have the heated threads in the forums now because for once, yes for once. I think SOE hit an expansion head on BLAM. This is good stuff, and the amount of heated threads in an otherwise desolate forum is proof.

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