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Old 12-20-2008, 04:03 AM   #271
Noaani

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Davngr1 wrote:

 ps.  i solo healed and tanked cheltish before on my craptastic geared bruiser and defiler no epic(actually did it to get his epic), could my defiler solo heal another bruiser thru cheltish all things being equal?  probably not.     knowing exactly what the tank and healer are doing and when is a luxury most players don't have.   not bieng able to solo heal an instance(even one as easy as forge) has less to do with *sucking* and more to do with lack of team work.

Different way of looking at the situatin I guess, but a healer knowing what the tank is going to do is only really useful for pre casting wards/reactive/regens before the pull. 

A group sucking due to lack of communication is still a group sucking.

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Old 12-20-2008, 09:55 AM   #272
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Kendricke wrote:

Kordran wrote:

 But purely from a business perspective, making the path of least resistance for those casual players to be pressing the cancel button, that doesn't do SOE's bottom line any good.

Is this happening?  Are casual players leaving in any significant numbers?  So far as SOE's indicated, this is not what's occuring. 

They are not going to tell you that, but the effect on the game is probably going to be similar to the effect GoD had on EQ.

However, you will get your answer when they do future live updates - just look at the content that will be included in those. I think that it is pretty safe to say that more top end instances are not going to be high on the list.

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Old 12-20-2008, 10:06 AM   #273
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[email protected] wrote:

Kordran wrote:

All I have said was that I think they should have put additional content in TSO which would make the transition easier from the brainless tank-and-spank heroic encounters we've had previously, to the scripted encounters that we have now. 

There are a number of encounters in ROK that should help people to make that transition. Encounters like Drusilla, the Keeper of Dreams, Sandstorm, the four Vault Golems in VoES. Even Unrest had scripted fights that should have gotten people accustomed to something other than tank-&-spank. Veksar & RE2 were specifically intended to go beyond tank-&-spank, & now, with hind-sight, I'd argue that both of those dungeons were intended to get people accustomed to scripted encounters as preparation for TSO.

The point I'm trying to make is that I think there is already sufficient scripted content in the game, prior to TSO, that the existence of all those scripted encounters in TSO should not have been a gigantic surprise. Therefore, I'm not sure what more SOE can do to get people beyond tank-&-spank ... particularly when some of the very people complaining about these "difficult" scripts apparently weren't grouping up for ROK dungeons, RE2, or Veksar. Seriously, what would *more* "easy content" in TSO have done, when we've got people who would be whining up a storm at the very notion that they're "forced" to get a group just to do it in the first place???

I think Kendricke is right: people are looking for excuses -- not reasons -- for their failure, & then falling back comfortably on the notion that their failures were someone else's fault.

You are completely missing the point. The fact is that there is no, zero, nada, intermediate content at all in the expansion. You are the one looking for excuses, to rationalize this failing as reasonable when it obviously isnt. No one is trying to take anything away from you, they would just like something for them.

If people don't want to run scripts, then include content that either doesnt have them or has very limited use of them.

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Old 12-20-2008, 10:14 AM   #274
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[email protected] wrote:

Ohiv wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I think Kendricke is right: people are looking for excuses -- not reasons -- for their failure, & then falling back comfortably on the notion that their failures were someone else's fault.

Here I thought that was a jab at the school system where we don't want folks to feel bad, or have an issue with "loosing" so everyone get's a congrats reward just for playing.

Well, actually Ohiv, I personally think that all of this guff we're seeing has a lot to do with modern-day "political correctness" in which everyone's personal lifestyle choice is to be not merely respected, but validated, & nobody is ever to be told they're "wrong" at anything, or ever "forced" to lose, because being wrong or losing is bad for one's self-esteem.

& yes, I do think that rot begins in public schools & spreads from there, but this is now veering into Off Topics-ville.

Well, you don't seem to take kindly to being told that you are wrong either. If you spent less time in assuming you were right and stopped to stand in someone else shoes, you might get a better perspective of the issues they are facing, which are very clearly not those that you are facing.

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Old 12-20-2008, 11:03 AM   #275
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Yella wrote:

The fact is that there is no, zero, nada, intermediate content at all in the expansion.

Yes there is.

Oblisk of Akhzul easier than VoES. Scion of Ice is on par with VoES.

In terms of easiest to hardest, this is how I rate the easiest 20 T8 heroic instances.

Court of KorocustCrypt of AgonyOblisk of AkhzulScion of IceVaults of Eternal SleepEvernight AbbyCaverns of the AfflictedChelsithMaidens ChamberVeksar: InvasionDeep ForgeVeksar: Sunken TheaterRunnyeye: The GatheringMystmyr ManorNu'RogaThe AnathemaNajena's Hollow TowerAnchor of BazzulThe CruicableHalls of the ForsakenThere is intermediate content in TSO, but there is also rediculously easy content in TSO. As has been said in many threads, if you progressed through the heroic instances in RoK, including RE2 and Veksar, you would be half way through TSO instances at launch. 

If people don't want to run scripts, then include content that either doesnt have them or has very limited use of them.

Thing with this is, RoK instances were more heavily scripted than some of the easier TSO instances. VoES has about as in depth a script as Evernight Abby, and Maidens Chamber has about as much to it as The Crucible. There were no major complaints a year ago about scripts, so why is it suddenly an issue (that is a rhetorical question, as I am about to provide the answer).

There are complaints now because casual players are suddenly finding themselves in the position of having to  decipher the scripts, instead of just killing the mobs. In RoK, by the time a casual player got to instances, there were less casual players running them on their second or third character to 80, so they knew the scripts inside out, and could easily lead a group through.

This is not happening in TSO. Casual players are running instances without picking up these less casual players on their alts, as those people are still on their mains trying to get achievements, and even a few of the better instance drops for their mains.

Suddenly, casuals are left to defend for themselves, are they are failing.

In a few months, when casuals have finally figured out the scripts and are able to kill the mobs with ease, they will look back at some of these instances and wonder where they thought the scripts were.

Suddenly, mobs have gone from being heavily scripted nightmares all they way to /rand 100 to see who is on portal duty, or assigning someone to look out for ques in /say about what a mob is going to do. The scripts would have disappeared, and when you get to the mobs next, you'll look at them as nothing more than an empty box that was once locked up, much like the rest of us already do.

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Old 12-20-2008, 11:56 AM   #276
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Yella wrote:

The fact is that there is no, zero, nada, intermediate content at all in the expansion.

There didn't need to be any "intermediate" content in this expansion, because ROK provided it a year ago, & if people would group up for the ROK dungeons -- instead of whining on the forums about how much they hate "forced grouping"-- they would get the freekin' gear & the experience with scripting to run the TSO instances. You know, like I & many others have done?

I even said that quite clearly, so how you managed to miss that astonishingly easy, neo-bright-glowing point is entirely beyond me  tho it's rather ironic that you accused me of missing a point

In any event, it's quite possible -- as other posters have said -- that you're simply wrong. I wouldn't know if OoA is easier than VoeS or not, as I've not been in there. However, I am pretty sure that a good trio could Swashy-tank that place, & if I'm right, then it's very much "intermediate content." Seriously, if I can Swashy-tank OoA with only one Warden healing me & a Necro DPSing .... than any casual full group ought to have little trouble in there. If they have more than "little trouble" ... well, what's that tell you??? Or, would you rather just keep blaming SOE?

Edit: as for scripts, if people don't want to deal with scripts, then how in the bloody blue blazes are they capable of handling any freekin' CRPG I can think of??? Just about ANY good CRPG is quite heavily scripted. Beyond that, it's not just TSO that's heavily scripted; I pointed out elsewhere that VoES, Maiden's, RE2, & Veksar were intended (as I see them) to get people used to heavily scripted encounters. Show me someone who "doesn't want to deal with scripts", & I'll show you a SCRUB. I'm sorry, but "I don't wanna deal with scripts" is, in my mind, akin to lazy.

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Old 12-20-2008, 10:10 PM   #277
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Post 1 - I cant do any instance even with full legendary equipment.

Post 2 - I finished this zone with 2 ppl AFK using sharpened guava halves and my underwear.

Post 3 - All zones in TSO are easy apart from X (only zone I havent finished with less than 20 deaths)

Post 4 - I guess I suck at TSO.

Post 5 - You need a tank that has xyz equipment that is free on a tuesday with a mythical equipped dirge, two punnets of strawberries and several artichokes able to speak german and using a freshly grown parsnip in each hand. Duh, dont you know anything??

Post 6 - Dammit I only have one Parsnip.

Post 7 NOOB!

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Old 12-21-2008, 03:42 AM   #278
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Guy De Alsace wrote:

Post 1 - I cant do any instance even with full legendary equipment.

Post 2 - I finished this zone with 2 ppl AFK using sharpened guava halves and my underwear.

Post 3 - All zones in TSO are easy apart from X (only zone I havent finished with less than 20 deaths)

Post 4 - I guess I suck at TSO.

Post 5 - You need a tank that has xyz equipment that is free on a tuesday with a mythical equipped dirge, two punnets of strawberries and several artichokes able to speak german and using a freshly grown parsnip in each hand. Duh, dont you know anything??

Post 6 - Dammit I only have one Parsnip.

Post 7 NOOB!

Sounds about right, except for the fact that you neglected to mention that there are 7 solo quests that will give you a parsnip, and that if you don't happen to have parsnips for whatever reason, you could make do with a turnip, though it may take a little longer.

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Old 12-21-2008, 06:20 PM   #279
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Yella wrote:

 The fact is that there is no, zero, nada, intermediate content at all in the expansion.

Simple question: Have you run Obelisk of Ahk'zul?

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Old 12-21-2008, 09:17 PM   #280
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Kendricke wrote:

Yella wrote:

 The fact is that there is no, zero, nada, intermediate content at all in the expansion.

Simple question: Have you run Obelisk of Ahk'zul?

You seriously want to call that "intermediate content"?  A zone that requires people to actually work together and run the script properly?  Have you ever run OoA with a PUG?

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Old 12-21-2008, 11:27 PM   #281
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erin wrote:

Kendricke wrote:

Yella wrote:

 The fact is that there is no, zero, nada, intermediate content at all in the expansion.

Simple question: Have you run Obelisk of Ahk'zul?

You seriously want to call that "intermediate content"? A zone that requires people to actually work together and run the script properly? Have you ever run OoA with a PUG?

You mean, a zone like RE2? Or Veksar? Or, heaven forbid, even Maiden's, when one nimrod that doesn't pay attention on Drusilla can mean all kinds of heartache? Because, unless it's something dramatically harder than any of those, I don't see the problem.

You make it sound like requiring players to work together & properly run a script is something heretofor unheard of, novel, & crazy.

No, I've never run OoA with a PUG, but I've heard nothing indicating it can't be done. Will you wipe a couple times? Sure. Is wiping a couple times a huge issue for a PUG running a dungeon together for the first time? It shouldn't be. Why do people want to make it out like it is???

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Old 12-22-2008, 02:08 AM   #282
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erin wrote:

Kendricke wrote:

Yella wrote:

 The fact is that there is no, zero, nada, intermediate content at all in the expansion.

Simple question: Have you run Obelisk of Ahk'zul?

You seriously want to call that "intermediate content"?  A zone that requires people to actually work together and run the script properly?  Have you ever run OoA with a PUG?

Only thing I can think of is the second mob, and all you need to do for that is have ranged DPS and a healer stand on the edge of the bouncy thing killing it, and all your melee DPS and your tank bouncing around playing pop the bubble.

While that 'technically' would be defined as a script, it less teamwork than a tank/spank mob, and about as much thought.

What exactly is hard about that? Seriously, I want to know...

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Old 12-22-2008, 03:58 AM   #283
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I believe knowing the zone and mobs abilities especially the tank and healer helps a lot in doing well in the TSO instances. Also the makeup of the group helps a lot too. A group with heavy dps tends to do very well. I play a healer (defiler) without any VP gear and no epic. So far has cleared the following zone with tank in mostly ROK legendary with a couple T1/T2 raid gear and some TSO 1 set of void armour.

Oblisk of Akhzul (solo heal)Scion of IceEvernight Abby  (solo heal)Caverns of the AfflictedVeksar: Sunken TheaterThe AnathemaAnchor of Bazzul  (solo heal)The Cruicable Halls of the Forsaken

All this zone can be done without raid geared tank with 2 healers once you have figured out all the encounters. With VP gear, these zones are just a walk in the park.

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Old 12-22-2008, 11:41 AM   #284
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I've actually solo healed all those zones on my Heroic geared Mystic.  Some of them were challenging, and yes, we died a number of times in a few.  To which I still say:  Where there is no opportunity for failure, there is no opportunity for greatness.

If anyone can get thru these zones, then everyone is just another stinking lemming with no distinguishing ability whatsoever.  Fortunately, that's not what we have.

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Old 12-22-2008, 12:48 PM   #285
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How many times should a completely Legendary/Mastercrafted PUG expect to die while doing a TSO instance?

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Old 12-22-2008, 12:54 PM   #286
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[email protected] wrote:

How many times should a completely Legendary/Mastercrafted PUG expect to die while doing a TSO instance?

Assumg the players know what they are doing and are willing to be a "team"...I would say 1-2 wipes when tackling an encounter for the first  time.  Of course some instances are harder than others. 

Honestly the key to most of these TSO encounters has more to do with strat and knowing how the script works than it does with gear.

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Old 12-22-2008, 12:59 PM   #287
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There are way too many variables there even begin to properly assess your question.

Are the players generally competent?  What classes comprise the group?  What zone?

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Old 12-22-2008, 01:01 PM   #288
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Kendricke wrote:

Yella wrote:

 The fact is that there is no, zero, nada, intermediate content at all in the expansion.

Simple question: Have you run Obelisk of Ahk'zul?

OoA gives zero shards unless it happens to be the daily double.

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Old 12-22-2008, 01:14 PM   #289
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Banditman wrote:

No it isn't.

Developers pegged Deep Forge as being on the lowest tier of zones available - rated Easy.  Or was it E for Everyone?  I forget. 

Anyway, Deep Forge is definitely not half way through any sort of TSO progression.  In beta we ran Deep Forge with all beta buffed characters and had no particular issues with it.

First, the developer rating was a casual approximation of where they thought the zones would fall in progression, based on an average group makup, and assuming a basic knowledge of the encounters within. These ratings were made by individual developers, rating the zones that they themselves populated. There was no discussion between them, nor comparison, to make sure they were giving the same rating to a zone of the same difficulty.

Second, in that hardly binding rating, Deep Forge was given a rating of easy/moderate. There were 4 other zones also given this rating, and 4 zones given an outright easy rating. This puts Deep Forge at some point between the 5th and the 9th easiest zone, which out of 20 heroic zones, is [Removed for Content] close to the almost half way that I said it was.

Edit, actually, there were only 3 zones given an 'easy' rating be the developers, but Obelisk of Ahkzul was not given a rating at all (the only zone to not get one). Player experiance has put this zone at slightly below easy.

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Old 12-22-2008, 01:17 PM   #290
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Thunndar316 wrote:

Kendricke wrote:

Yella wrote:

 The fact is that there is no, zero, nada, intermediate content at all in the expansion.

Simple question: Have you run Obelisk of Ahk'zul?

OoA gives zero shards unless it happens to be the daily double.

Correct, it doesn't.

What it does give, however, is legendary drops that in some cases are better than shard merchant loot.

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Old 12-22-2008, 01:19 PM   #291
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[email protected] wrote:

How many times should a completely Legendary/Mastercrafted PUG expect to die while doing a TSO instance?

Which TSO instance are you talking about? Specifying is kinda important, because if you're talking about any TSO instance in general, there's no real answer -- unless you think that all of them are supposed to be the same level of difficulty, which I very much doubt you believe.

However, since you didn't specify, I'll go with Caverns of the Afflicted, a nice, relatively easy instance. I think a completely legendary/mastercrafted PUG doing CotA the very first time should expect to die roughly 2-3 times.

However, with just a little luck & some communication -- i.e., like talking to each other before going in, to nail down roles & expectations & such -- it's quite possible for such a group to clear Caverns without wiping at all. I figure that if they've never done it before, they'll probably wipe on the Plague Crawler Queen at least once, tho; it's not immediately obvious what you need to do with her.

I'd say the same things about Evernight Abby & Scion of Ice, & I'm almost certain they're true of OoA as well.

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Old 12-22-2008, 01:23 PM   #292
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Thunndar316 wrote:

Kendricke wrote:

Yella wrote:

 The fact is that there is no, zero, nada, intermediate content at all in the expansion.

Simple question: Have you run Obelisk of Ahk'zul?

OoA gives zero shards unless it happens to be the daily double.

Which, while true, has nothing at all to do with either the question asked, or the response given.

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Old 12-22-2008, 01:28 PM   #293
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I have yet to see anything worth while in there other than the 12 plat loot box.  If OoA gave shards I would run it everyday because it's so easy.  However, I would rather spend my time doing zones that have shard rewards.

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Old 12-22-2008, 01:30 PM   #294
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[email protected]ore wrote:

Thunndar316 wrote:

Kendricke wrote:

Yella wrote:

 The fact is that there is no, zero, nada, intermediate content at all in the expansion.

Simple question: Have you run Obelisk of Ahk'zul?

OoA gives zero shards unless it happens to be the daily double.

Which, while true, has nothing at all to do with either the question asked, or the response given.

Sure it does. How are challenged players supposed to progress when the easiest instance gives no shards? It should at least have 1 guaranteed shard from a chest.
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Old 12-22-2008, 01:36 PM   #295
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Thunndar316 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Thunndar316 wrote:

Kendricke wrote:

Yella wrote:

 The fact is that there is no, zero, nada, intermediate content at all in the expansion.

Simple question: Have you run Obelisk of Ahk'zul?

OoA gives zero shards unless it happens to be the daily double.

Which, while true, has nothing at all to do with either the question asked, or the response given.

Sure it does. How are challenged players supposed to progress when the easiest instance gives no shards? It should at least have 1 guaranteed shard from a chest.

buy some dirt cheap MC gear to fill out the slots still unused from questing in RoK? I tanked several of the easier zones on my tank in MC gear. And MC gear isnt *that* hard to get. and if you do some t8 quests, you can easily afford it.

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Old 12-22-2008, 01:42 PM   #296
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Thunndar316 wrote:

How are challenged players supposed to progress when the easiest instance gives no shards?

Um ......... by doing OTHER quite easy instances that DO give shards????? Maybe by improving their character & their skills so they're no longer quite so "challenged"????

Seriously, people who have been playing ROK for the last year, doing the instances, doing the quests & so forth, have NO FREEKIN' EXCUSE WHATSOEVER for not being able to handle Scion, Caverns, & Evernight Abby AT LEAST.

Those who haven't been doing ROK instances ad nauseum for the last year, IMO, have no excuse for not having done so, & have only themselves to blame for not having gear, experience with scripts, experience in groups, & so on.

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Old 12-22-2008, 01:49 PM   #297
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

How many times should a completely Legendary/Mastercrafted PUG expect to die while doing a TSO instance?

Assumg the players know what they are doing and are willing to be a "team"...I would say 1-2 wipes when tackling an encounter for the first  time.  Of course some instances are harder than others. 

It really depends on the instance, but if everyone in your group is in mastercrafted and RoK legendary, there's a good chance that you will wipe a few times even if all the people do everything "right" in the instance. Just an easy example, in the fight with Kaern, if he happens to port your healer and then scores a few criticals on the tank in short order, it's pretty much all over (that's one of the reasons that lesser geared groups would probably be well served to bring two healers along for that fight -- he likes to port people who aren't in melee range of him). Sometimes the random number generator just doesn't go your way, and gear can be the mitigating factor between winning and reviving.

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Old 12-22-2008, 01:55 PM   #298
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

How many times should a completely Legendary/Mastercrafted PUG expect to die while doing a TSO instance?

Assumg the players know what they are doing and are willing to be a "team"...I would say 1-2 wipes when tackling an encounter for the first  time.  Of course some instances are harder than others. 

Honestly the key to most of these TSO encounters has more to do with strat and knowing how the script works than it does with gear.

Maybe my question was ambiguous so let me clarify.  You say 1-2 wipes tackling an encounter.  If for argument's sake we assume there are 5 named mobs in a zone then you'd say a Legendary/Mastercrafted PUG should expect to wipe 5 to 10 times in the zone?

Now if one of those players does that same zone later on with a different 5 pick up Legendary/Mastercrafted people how many times should he expect to wipe on that second pass through?

(I know how many deaths I eat raiding.  I also know that just because we have beaten a mob once does not mean we will 1-pull it next time.  So I'm curious what people here think is a reasonable number of deaths a person should expect to eat in an instance.)

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Old 12-22-2008, 01:55 PM   #299
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Thunndar316 wrote:

I have yet to see anything worth while in there other than the 12 plat loot box.  If OoA gave shards I would run it everyday because it's so easy.  However, I would rather spend my time doing zones that have shard rewards.

That depends on your class and current gear obviously, but for one thing, the zone drops a healer shield, symbol and braclet, all of which will assist a healer in solo healing harder zones. A tower shield that is arguably better for a crusader to tank with than the shard shield (it has slightly less protection, but more DPS), and a ring with 243 mitigation, which will help an under geared tank a LOT.

There is the first of the gear with effects for summoner pets, which help a lot when added up, and there is a robe that is better than any RoK legendary mage robes.

While there may be no shards, there are still upgrades for most pickup groups, especially if they do not have the choice pieces from RoK.

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Old 12-22-2008, 01:59 PM   #300
CrazyMoogle

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Banditman wrote:

There are way too many variables there even begin to properly assess your question.

Are the players generally competent?  What classes comprise the group?  What zone?

Ok, now I don't want to put words in your mouth so please stop me if I'm wrong here.  But if Joe came here and said he was having trouble clearing zones and Lisa said "that's because you suck" would you agree with me that Lisa was an idiot?

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