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Old 12-19-2008, 05:34 AM   #121
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Caverns of the Afflicted is easy. A 30 minute or 45 min tops zone.

If you can take mezzer and a warlock, it makes the zone significantly easier. If you don't have access to these then you have to adjust your strategy. For example:

If you don't have a mezzer, or strong AoE capabilities, simply body pull the groups to your party. Everyone needs to wait until the mobs are in your camp. Then simply kill one by one, but leave ONE of them alive. Pull the next group to your pull spot, repeat. Pull third group to your spot, repeat. You should have 3 half-dead mobs in-camp by this point that are solo mobs. Move ahead to the next group, repeat. Work your way to the named. When you are ready for the named, kill all of the remaining half-dead mobs, then kill named. This will keep mobs from respawning as you move, and once the specific named mobs are killed, the mobs will stop respawning.

Kill named. They are all cake, other than perhaps the Joker, whose adds can be a bit of a pain if you aren't a high DPS group. But even so, just focus on him and burn him down, or adjust your tactics accordingly.

When you get downstairs to the ramp, same thing. Kill all but 1 of the group, pull the corner up to top of ramp, do the same, move to corner, pull the second wave of ramp mobs, but always leave 1 alive so the groups do not respawn on top of you. Best choice is to wait for the pather group at the T intersection and pull one or two of the large groups back up to your corner at the midway ramp point, then kill ALL but 2 mobs from the T intersection groups. Then move into T intersection, repeat the process, and move to entrance of the named room. Slaughter your mobs, move in, kill named.

Of course this requires HEAVY concentration. You have to keep track of which mobs are killable and which ones you need to keep alive. Having a mezzer makes this task easier, but it's extremely doable without (I've ran this zone with about 5 different group setups and just have to adjust accordingly).

The worm queen mob can be a pain...be sure to either have someone who can cure noxious or bring plenty of pots. As I recall this poison DoT does 1-2k power drain per SECOND if it's left up. That's the hardest part about this mob. Other than that you can jump over her when she's in zerk mode and avoid getting hit.

Regardless, CoA is a 30-45 min zone, max. We are not mythical. We are fabled epics, and I've done this zone with MC and legendary gear on alts. (entire group was MC and legendary weapons).

It isn't snide. It's truth. If you can't handle adjusting strategies dependant upon your group setup it has nothing to do with the diffculty of the zone, it has to do with you as a player being unable to play smart and adjust.

You can easily run Scion of Ice, Deep Forge, CoA, Anathema, Crucible, Abbey, and Hollow Tower with MC and legendary (although a couple of the named are a [Removed for Content] with low DPS, like the coffin-Vampire in Abbey), and none of these zones should take you longer than an hour, hour and half at most. If you can't handle it...it's not the fault of the game. It's the fault of the players.

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Old 12-19-2008, 05:39 AM   #122
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[email protected] wrote:

Well the group I was in made it to the stairs down below but the mobs kept respawning too quickly. I could tank 2 groups no prob but when 3 and then 4 groups started jumping us I was overwhelmed. THat was with 2 healers. With an SK tanking and a warlock in group. Everyone in the group kept mentioning how much fun it was but as a tank I was thinking, this isn't fun, it's a darn headache.

Anyways, I will try maybe doing another instance that is easier and go from there. Any tips on any TSO instances that a 'casual' playing  tank could have a good shot at completing?

There is a way to move through this part of the zone without having more than 2 groups on you at any point in time. Doing so means you will be in constant combat, so you need either massive AE DPS or power regen (a bard or chanter are enough regen to do this). Since the mobs do not hit hard, a single healer is enough.

While some may look at that and think it is a fairly specific group requirement for an easy zone, remember that the only reason it is an easy zone is because with a group setup like this (which involves having any 2 of about half of the classes in the game) it is a pushover.

Not sure which thread I posted it in, but the difficulty levels posted for TSO instances are a guide, they are not absolutes. A group that has trouble in Caverns of the Afflicted due to not enough AE DPS may well be able to plow through Necrotic Asylum. Very few of the zones have an actual difficulty rating based on how hard mobs hit.

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Old 12-19-2008, 05:47 AM   #123
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bks6721 wrote:

I guess its a matter of perspective. My first 2 weeks of TSO I had a grand total of 5 shards. Now I have 7. Whoopy!

All this says to me is that you are not even trying.

There is a shard quest for Scion of Ice that has you killing the first 12 trash mobs in the zone. Once you have killed them, you are done. Same can be said for Caverns, there is a shard quest that requires you to kill the trash mobs in the group at the start. Deep Forge has one where you can get a shard from killing a single mob and harvesting 12 books.

If you only have 7 shards, the only thing that sayd to me is that you are not trying to get them. In all three of the above examples (that come up every 2 - 3 days it seems) you do not even need to kill a named mob in the zone. You can get a group, get the quests and run them, get the shards, and then attempt to make progress in the rest of the zone, assuming your having issues with it.

Its less a matter of perspective as it is a matter of just going out and playing the game.

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Old 12-19-2008, 08:03 AM   #124
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With CoA and VOES you can go through them and get by fairly easily with about any group make up. This makes pickup and go a lot easier. What frustrates me is this "you need this setup" to beat it type stuff. It's either mezzer or DPS. I used to do instances a heck of a lot, heck even raids. It would be nice if one or two of the TSO zones were on par with COA and VOES. I've never fully completed maidens, usually issues at sandstorm and my necro had to drop for a "DPS" class so they could beat the zone. [Removed for Content] this stuff is frustrating.  (we had a mezzer).

There was how many instances? Why does it bother you if a couple are toned down.

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Old 12-19-2008, 08:23 AM   #125
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Nuhus wrote:

What frustrates me is this "you need this setup" to beat it type stuff. It's either mezzer or DPS.

Of The easiest 12 instances, you have 1 that has AE DPS is a major benifit (Najena's Hollow Tower, its not needed, but it really does help), and thats honestly about it. Single target DPS helps to kill stuff faster, but that is true with anything.

Obviously you can't just randomly invite any player of any class to your group, but Scion of Ice and Oblisk of Akhzul are as forgiving on group makup and gear quality as CoA is. The only thing that mkes them harder right now is the fact that the encounters are not as well understood as the CoA encounters are.

As for a mezzer, they are not required until you hit the very top of the instances in TSO, and by the time the majority of players get there, I would say there would be enough readily avalible information about the encounters to not specifically need one anyway.

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Old 12-19-2008, 11:37 AM   #126
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Nuhus wrote:

With CoA and VOES you can go through them and get by fairly easily with about any group make up. This makes pickup and go a lot easier. What frustrates me is this "you need this setup" to beat it type stuff. It's either mezzer or DPS. I used to do instances a heck of a lot, heck even raids. It would be nice if one or two of the TSO zones were on par with COA and VOES. I've never fully completed maidens, usually issues at sandstorm and my necro had to drop for a "DPS" class so they could beat the zone. [Removed for Content] this stuff is frustrating. (we had a mezzer).

There was how many instances? Why does it bother you if a couple are toned down.

Offhand, I know of three TSO instances that would qualify.....Scion and Abbey and Forge.  Done them all with several mixes of group members.  The only "requirement" was we needed a 2nd healer for Abbey.  Other than that, the rest of the group ranged from mix of scouts, mix of mages, mix of both, even a 73 Guardian tagged along once for Scion and Forge.  Sure some group makeups went smoother...but all were doable.

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Old 12-19-2008, 12:16 PM   #127
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[email protected] wrote:

You can easily run Scion of Ice, Deep Forge, CoA, Anathema, Crucible, Abbey, and Hollow Tower with MC and legendary (although a couple of the named are a [Removed for Content] with low DPS, like the coffin-Vampire in Abbey), and none of these zones should take you longer than an hour, hour and half at most. If you can't handle it...it's not the fault of the game. It's the fault of the players.

I wouldn't put the Crucible on that list, the normal guild group I'm in can do Necrotic Asylum which arguably has harder hitting mobs (melee crits for almost up to 10k dmg autoattack from named) with higher HP (not even the boss named yet CoFE can have up to 1.3 million HP), heck, even the normal/trash mobs actually have a shot at killing you here with a CURSE debuff that makes your crushing mitigation 0% and then it only takes 1 hit from them - yet can't do The Crucible.  The Master in the Crucible reflects just about everything a spell caster can throw at him - you can avoid debuffs, AOEs, etc all you want but in the end if you didn't take scouts instead of mages this fight will be harder than the Moderate to Hard zones.

The rest sure, I can agree with, but The Crucible you really need to have a specific group makeup, much more specific than even the Moderate to Hard zones.

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Old 12-19-2008, 12:23 PM   #128
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My Illusionist doesn't seem to have any problems dishing out his normal DPS versus the Master in Crucible.  In fact, he actually parses pretty well in that fight because his AE's land on all the adds the Master summons.

I see the occasional reflect, but it's not a big deal.

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Old 12-19-2008, 12:32 PM   #129
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Detor wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

You can easily run Scion of Ice, Deep Forge, CoA, Anathema, Crucible, Abbey, and Hollow Tower with MC and legendary (although a couple of the named are a [Removed for Content] with low DPS, like the coffin-Vampire in Abbey), and none of these zones should take you longer than an hour, hour and half at most. If you can't handle it...it's not the fault of the game. It's the fault of the players.

I wouldn't put the Crucible on that list, the normal guild group I'm in can do Necrotic Asylum which arguably has harder hitting mobs (melee crits for almost up to 10k dmg autoattack from named) with higher HP (not even the boss named yet CoFE can have up to 1.3 million HP), heck, even the normal/trash mobs actually have a shot at killing you here with a CURSE debuff that makes your crushing mitigation 0% and then it only takes 1 hit from them - yet can't do The Crucible.  The Master in the Crucible reflects just about everything a spell caster can throw at him - you can avoid debuffs, AOEs, etc all you want but in the end if you didn't take scouts instead of mages this fight will be harder than the Moderate to Hard zones.

The rest sure, I can agree with, but The Crucible you really need to have a specific group makeup, much more specific than even the Moderate to Hard zones.

I've done him with a group that was filled with Guardian, Templar, Troubadour, Necromancer, Illusionist, and a Brigand. The casters never had a problem. When you use your debuffs, he's cake. Just wade through the doggy adds and he's a cinch. It doesn't require scouts.

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Old 12-19-2008, 01:37 PM   #130
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Banditman wrote:

My Illusionist doesn't seem to have any problems dishing out his normal DPS versus the Master in Crucible.  In fact, he actually parses pretty well in that fight because his AE's land on all the adds the Master summons.

I see the occasional reflect, but it's not a big deal.

Well, I don't know what he was doing differently because when I look back at logs (try to avoid that particular zone now) it was more akin to reflect, reflect reflect, spell gets through, reflect reflect reflect.  He was way more difficult than many named in the Moderate to Hard zones - at least from a perspective of try try try try....in his case, try try try try try try try giveup whereas named in some Moderate to Hard zones where it's been try try win.

After a few minutes he'd been whittled down to about 80-90% health by melee hits mostly, and finally an AoE, "Elemental Strike" according to log - heat damage, killed us.  We were already pretty weakened by the massive amount of reflected damage though when the AOE hit. 

Loot tends to be better in the end with the Moderate to Hard zones than in The Crucible as well - so really I'm just missing out on the experience of being able to do the crucible moreso than any item.  I'd definately consider The Crucible more difficult than Necrotic Asylum or Anchor of Bazzul just from personal experience.

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Old 12-19-2008, 01:40 PM   #131
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[email protected] wrote:

I've done him with a group that was filled with Guardian, Templar, Troubadour, Necromancer, Illusionist, and a Brigand. The casters never had a problem. When you use your debuffs, he's cake. Just wade through the doggy adds and he's a cinch. It doesn't require scouts.

Debuffs were a terrible idea - we learned that fast when a debuff got reflected back then somebody AoE'd and it did massive dmg back to group.  (learned no AoEs fast too)  It's funny you say no scouts needed then say you managed to do it with a group that was 33% scouts.

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Old 12-19-2008, 01:53 PM   #132
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If it was me, I'd tell all these casters to chill on the AE damage until they were sure their spells were landing.  An "all caster" group is probably a bad idea.  Our group was pretty mixed with Scouts and Mages in DPS positions.

Nevertheless, this is a 30 minute zone.  Codexicon is by far the hardest encounter in there, and once understood, it's not all that bad  . . . unless it bugs.

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Old 12-19-2008, 02:45 PM   #133
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Banditman wrote:

If it was me, I'd tell all these casters to chill on the AE damage until they were sure their spells were landing.

I said we learned fast not to use AoEs or debuffs on him.   Bottom line though the Crucible if you don't have the exact setup required is FAR less flexible than almost all the other zones.  You can say on your list of zones that "if somebody can't handle it then it's the player not the zone" but in the case of the Crucible you can have good players, in good gear (not raid, but good group gear), that can't do the zone BECAUSE of the design of the zone.  Unless you boot somebody, and find the exact group setup the designer wanted for it (which is not required for other zones to near the same degree) the mob will just be impossible for you.  No matter how "good" a player you are.

The Master isn't about teamwork where nobody can make a mistake such as Dread Exarch Mordek, it isn't about learning a strategy that allows you to overcome it by doing the right thing such as Marcus in Evernight with the sun, it isn't about having the dps to kill the mob before adds overrun you like Coagulation of Flesh and Evil.  The Master is about the people you normally group with having picked the right class back whenever they made their character that would be needed a few expansions later for this specific mob.  

I'm no longer saying change it, because there are plenty of other zones with better loot that are perfectly doable, even far easier in fact, but I don't think The Crucible should be listed on any list where you say the equivalent of "do these zones or you suck".

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Old 12-19-2008, 06:47 PM   #134
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[email protected] wrote:

Wow, some people really have no clue what it truely means to be a "hardcore" MMO player.

When did playing a few nights a week with a group of friends and learning to work as a team become hardcore?  =P

About three years ago.

Anything requiring that degree of organisation qualifies as "hardcore" nowadays.

I play MMOs pretty much every day of the week, after I get in from work and at weekends. I mainly duo with my girlfriend or solo if she's not around. My hours played are hardcore, but my playstyle is casual. I describe my playstyle as "pottering".

I haven't done the organised grouping thing since about 6 months after EQ2 launched, although I did plenty of it in various MMOs in the 5 years before that. I really can't imagine ever going back to it - it does seem "hardcore" to me now, although back when I actually was doing it, it was considered "casual" becasue it wasn't raiding.

It's the degree of organisation that I find off-putting. Other players, be they friends or not, have their own agendas. They don't necessarily want to do what I want to do , or when I want to do it, or how i want to do it, or for as long as I want to do it. Three or four years ago, I had to put up with that because MMOs pretty much insisted on it, and there weren;t that many MMOs.

Nowadays, most MMOs provide enough "casual" content to keep me occupied for a good long while, and when I run out in a any given MMO I can just move to another, since nowadays there are dozens of them.

Last year, my girlfriend and I spent a total of 10 weeks playing EQ2 - we completed all the RoK content we could duo, made 80th as adventurers and crafters and did the Frostfell content. After Christmas we left and didn't come back until TSO. We are currently doing the Moors of Ykesha content and Frostfell. When that's done it will goodbye to EQ2 until the next expansion.

Since we both have Station Access accounts, SoE get the same money whether we play or not. But next year, for the first time since we got EQ in 1999, we are considering closing our SoE accounts while we play non-SoE MMOs until the next EQ/EQ2 expansions.

If all the content in the EQ2 expansions scaled to the size of the group doing it, as well as to the level, we'd be locked in for several months longer.

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Old 12-19-2008, 07:27 PM   #135
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Before this expansion there were very few fights that required any "Organization". They were mainly Tank hold agro, Healer heal, Dps kill it dead rinse and repeat, I fail to see how an MMO of all things should cater so much to solo/duo instances, Its just doesn't make any sense to me. MMO= Massive MULTIPLAYER Online, Its not multiplayer to watch people walk by too, they could script NPC's to do that.

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Old 12-19-2008, 08:25 PM   #136
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[email protected] wrote:

Before this expansion there were very few fights that required any "Organization". They were mainly Tank hold agro, Healer heal, Dps kill it dead rinse and repeat, I fail to see how an MMO of all things should cater so much to solo/duo instances, Its just doesn't make any sense to me. MMO= Massive MULTIPLAYER Online, Its not multiplayer to watch people walk by too, they could script NPC's to do that.

Basically MMO doesn't infer that you have to group, it isn't in the acronym MMO. SO there are many different playstyles while you might not like them they do exist, and should have some content for them. TSO IMO had very little solo content, this I believe is more the balance to what rok was. When the next expansion comes out and we are at the two expansions will make alot of sense.

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Old 12-20-2008, 04:41 AM   #137
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Detor wrote:

The Master in the Crucible reflects just about everything a spell caster can throw at him - you can avoid debuffs, AOEs, etc all you want but in the end if you didn't take scouts instead of mages this fight will be harder than the Moderate to Hard zones.

Against The Master, all a caster needs to remember is to not debuff and to not cast green AEs if at all possibble. Casters are better off casting nothing than a green AE if the adds are not up, and hold all green AEs until you have used all blue (these do not get reflected, as the target is 'self' not the mob).

So, basically, if adds are up cast blue AEs, if they are not, cast single target spells. It is not a bad idea to increase the resist type of the damage you deal as well.

Since the listed damage amount on a spell is the damage range it does before resists are factored in, if you can get your resists up to 75% or higher with the damage types you do, the damage from single target resists will be minimal.

Oh, and no AE control effects.

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Old 12-20-2008, 05:54 AM   #138
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TBH I was never even aware that the Master had a reflect spell. I've ran Crucible well over a dozen times with multiple group scenarios and the entire zone has never taken us more than 45 minutes. So either the casters in my group know what they are doing or something else is in our favor. I'm just a clueless tank, after all =P Me smash, me bash!

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Old 12-20-2008, 09:30 AM   #139
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[email protected] wrote:

Yella wrote:

The thing is that the content pretty much requires that team, but, as has been pointed out in a great number of posts, a lot of players dont have that team. What about them?

First I find it hard to believe that anyone that has played this game long enough to get to level 80 and 120AAs does not have a "team", a list of people that they have met and played with in the past that they cannot call on to play with in the future. But let us assume that they do not have a team, have never played with anyone else. At this point, if they have played all by themselves all the way through all of the solo content that is in EQ2, and there is a LOT of it, they have two choices, they can start another character and play through all of the solo content again, but from another race/class and timeframe perspective. Their adventure will be different not only because of the different race/class but because over the next several months/years the game will continue to change as much as it did over the last several months/years that it took to get the first character to 80/120. We call this replay value, much like any solo adventure console game.  Their second choice is to leave this game and go try another one, just like you do when you "finish" any other solo adventure console game.

Now if you truely do not have a "team" to play with and want to stick with this game and this character, then TSO is not the place to start. RoK and their 4 original instance zones is the place to start learning to play "as a team". When you can run all of the way through CoA and MC and clear them both, then you are ready for TSO. TSO has 20 zones for a reason. The original 4 RoK zones did not give enough variety for all of the different "levels" of EQ2 players (casual to "hard-core"). The 20 zones in TSO does. Scion is easy enough for any group of players that can clear MC. The rest cater to those that are ready for different challenges. SoE is not going to design 20 different looking CoAs. They are going to design 20 completely different zones, each one requireing a different approach and/or level of experience so that hopefully everyone has at least one place where they will be challenged to the limit of their ability. This is a good thing.

If you play casually, you won't have that team. You might be in a small guild with other casual players but that doesnt make a team. Chances are that regularly those folk won't have a full group, and chances are when they on occasion do, they will have low levels of experience in a scripted encounter, which typically ends in defeat no matter how skilled they might be individually.

Also, you are confusing a lack of a team with soloing, which is not in any shape or form the same thing. There is some solo content in TSO, there is a ton of content for organized full groups, there is nothing inbetween, and that is what the root problem is.

You did not give any compelling reason why content suited for those people shouldnt have been included. Not including it was simply a dumb move, since it excluded a chunk of the playerbase. And it is a move that the game is going to pay with by bleeding subscriptions.

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Old 12-20-2008, 09:39 AM   #140
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[email protected] wrote:

Correcting another player does not have to be in the form of L2Play or [Removed for Content].  Its quite possible to go about giving advice much more approachably.  Yes I have recieved , and given such advice, even searched it out from other players of the class.

Casual players don't read forums...thats one of my friends definitions =D

Wasn't there a poll a long time ago that SoE put out long ago where one of the choices was labeled Hardcore, and its description was 20+ hours per week.

Its a social game, if your playtime is extremely limited, make dates with the other players in your guild to run specific instances, schedule them like any gathering of friends.  Communicate, cooperate, and you can succeed still casual

Hardcore isn't necesarily how many hours you put in (allthough hardcore players generally do play a lot), it is more a frame of mind, the willingness to butt heads with an encounter 20 times to figure out a way of beating it for example. Someone who plays relatively low hours could fall into that group, but usually anyone who does pretty much allways has a semipermanent group organized with very close friends. If you don't need to look for group members, deal with people bailing, have a constant group setup and play with people who are on the same page as you (ie play as a team), you can get a lot done with relatively low play times, whereas people who dont have those things going for them will likely take a lot longer to achieve the same goal.

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Old 12-20-2008, 09:44 AM   #141
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Noaani wrote:

Yella wrote:

No confusion. If you read his description of how he plays, it clearly is an intense playstyle, which makes him hardcore and therefore clueless about the issues casual players face. He can offer all the advice he wants, but basically it boils down to "stop being casual, become hardcore", which achieves nothing.

Could you let us all know exactly what you define hardcore as? It seems to me you are still getting hardcore players mixed up with good players (or players that do not suck, to be more accurate).

Being hardcore is not a requirement of this game at all, not even for raiding. Following progression, however, is required.

If your defination of hardcore is "someone willing to follow progression" and your defination of casual is "someone not willing to follow progression" then I agree, being hardcore is required for TSO. Anything other than that I simply do not understand, sorry.

Yup, you dont understand. That much we can agree on SMILEY

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Old 12-21-2008, 10:12 AM   #142
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Yella wrote:

If you play casually, you won't have that team. You might be in a small guild with other casual players but that doesnt make a team. Chances are that regularly those folk won't have a full group, and chances are when they on occasion do, they will have low levels of experience in a scripted encounter, which typically ends in defeat no matter how skilled they might be individually.

Also, you are confusing a lack of a team with soloing, which is not in any shape or form the same thing. There is some solo content in TSO, there is a ton of content for organized full groups, there is nothing inbetween, and that is what the root problem is.

You did not give any compelling reason why content suited for those people shouldnt have been included. Not including it was simply a dumb move, since it excluded a chunk of the playerbase. And it is a move that the game is going to pay with by bleeding subscriptions.

Help me out here then. Are you suggesting that NONE of the 20 instance zones can be run with anything other than an "organized full group" or a group of 6 players who play together on a regular basis? Because if that is what you are saying then I have to disagree with you as I have done several of the new TSO instances with a random group of people that none of us had played with before. All of them have played in groups before, but none of us had played with more than two of the other players before.

As I said before there are 20 different zones. Some are for "casual" players. However most of the new content is for the "experienced" player. This is an unusual expansion in that NONE of the content is for the brand new player, and very little of it is for the "casual" player. However I would submit to you that there already exists a TON of content for those two groups. TSO is for the "experienced" player, the type of player who has already experienced most of the content that EQ2 already had to offer and wanted more. It is not for the player who just started his first character last week, nor is it even for the one who has NOT already played through enough of the content to get to level 80/120 including most of RoK.

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Old 12-22-2008, 11:30 AM   #143
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It really is the players.  It has nothing to do with anything else.  It's not their gear.  It's not how many hours they play.

Every time I get in a pickup group, I "look" at the gear those around me have.  I've seen groups that had me shaking my head at the gear go thru the zones fine.  I've seen groups that should have breezed through fail, in even the simplest of instances.

This time, it really is about YOU.  If you fail, it's not the game that has the problem.

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Old 12-22-2008, 11:36 AM   #144
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Banditman wrote:

It really is the players.  It has nothing to do with anything else.  It's not their gear.  It's not how many hours they play.

Every time I get in a pickup group, I "look" at the gear those around me have.  I've seen groups that had me shaking my head at the gear go thru the zones fine.  I've seen groups that should have breezed through fail, in even the simplest of instances.

This time, it really is about YOU.  If you fail, it's not the game that has the problem.

Too many people like to point the finger and blame SOE, or other player's, or the gear, yada yada yada...

I used to blame my golf clubs....

I used to blame my shotgun....

Nope, it was all me....take the tiime to learn a little bit more about your class, how to control your aggro, where to tank a mob, etc. before you blame the game.

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Old 12-22-2008, 11:51 AM   #145
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Yella wrote:

Noaani wrote:

Yella wrote:

No confusion. If you read his description of how he plays, it clearly is an intense playstyle, which makes him hardcore and therefore clueless about the issues casual players face. He can offer all the advice he wants, but basically it boils down to "stop being casual, become hardcore", which achieves nothing.

Could you let us all know exactly what you define hardcore as? It seems to me you are still getting hardcore players mixed up with good players (or players that do not suck, to be more accurate).

Being hardcore is not a requirement of this game at all, not even for raiding. Following progression, however, is required.

If your defination of hardcore is "someone willing to follow progression" and your defination of casual is "someone not willing to follow progression" then I agree, being hardcore is required for TSO. Anything other than that I simply do not understand, sorry.

Yup, you dont understand. That much we can agree on

Funny thing is, although you may not like the manner in which I am doing it, I am trying to help you here.

I could easily just not bother posting in this, or any other related thread, and let you people continue to think these instances are too hard. The fact that I know they are easier than you would like to believe is the only reason I continue to post on the subject.

So again, what is your defination of casual here? Are you talking about players with only treasured gear off the broker, because thats all they could afford? Are you talking about players that only have T2 and T2 RoK raid gear, because thats all their casual raid alliance can clear?

Both of these class as casual in their own way, and yet both will have obvious differences in what they are able to clear.

If your term for casual means someone that has yet do gear up from RoK solo quests and from RoK instances, then my answer to this inter thread is simply, no, you can't run instances like that. It is the equivlent of running VoES at level 70, as that is the amount of progression that is trying to be skipped.

If your term for casual means someone that is in RoK legendary, then my answer is yes, they should be able to run these instances. If I then find out that the RoK legendary these players are wearing is the full class sets, my answer as to why you are having trouble is because those players are unable to make informed gear decisions (in the time it takes to get a full set of RoK legendaru gear, you WILL have come across upgrades to at least 1 slot, but most likly to 4 - 5 slots).

If that same group is wearing RoK non set legendary, and they know their gear well enough to give a reason why they are wearing an individual piece over their set gear, then that group should be able to run the first 12 or so TSO instances, assuming remotly appropriate group setup (ie, you have a defensive healer that is appropriate for your tank, and you have at least 2 propper DPS classes or a groupwide DPS output of 8k+ [which is what I do in most groups myself, so it is not a hard thing to ask for]) then the only possible thing left is the fact that you are not yet aware of how to kill the mobs themselves.

As to not getting pickup groups... I join pickup groups all the time, on several different characters. If you happen to beon the same server as me, I may have even been in a pickup group with you, and you would never know it. I run more pickup groups than I do guild groups.

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Old 12-22-2008, 12:01 PM   #146
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Yella wrote:

Noaani wrote:

Yella wrote:

No confusion. If you read his description of how he plays, it clearly is an intense playstyle, which makes him hardcore and therefore clueless about the issues casual players face. He can offer all the advice he wants, but basically it boils down to "stop being casual, become hardcore", which achieves nothing.

Could you let us all know exactly what you define hardcore as? It seems to me you are still getting hardcore players mixed up with good players (or players that do not suck, to be more accurate).

Being hardcore is not a requirement of this game at all, not even for raiding. Following progression, however, is required.

If your defination of hardcore is "someone willing to follow progression" and your defination of casual is "someone not willing to follow progression" then I agree, being hardcore is required for TSO. Anything other than that I simply do not understand, sorry.

Yup, you dont understand. That much we can agree on

IOW, you can't be bothered to even TRY defining "hardcore" & "casual", as Noaani asked you to do.

I suspect it's because -- like George Orwell wrote about "democracy" -- you're afraid that if you actually define the terms, you'll discover that "casual" doesn't really apply to yourself at all, so you'd have to quit calling yourself "casual." I suspect that's true of a LOT of people, frankly; they toss around those words like they actually "mean something", when in fact they don't.

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Old 12-22-2008, 12:08 PM   #147
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Yella wrote:

If you don't need to look for group members, deal with people bailing, have a constant group setup and play with people who are on the same page as you (ie play as a team), you can get a lot done with relatively low play times, whereas people who dont have those things going for them will likely take a lot longer to achieve the same goal.

Most of my guildies are not on when I am, & even when they are, the chances of us putting together a full guild group are slim, because there are only 12-13 or so of us, total. So, when I am on, if I want to do TSO instances, I pretty much have to look for groups, deal with strangers, worry about people bailing, & all that other stuff.

Yet, I totally & completely disagree with your claims in this thread, & practically every other thread on this subject in which you've posted. Go figure, eh?

O, btw: the RED text indicates something that is almost wholly within the player's own control. Think about what that means, before you go implying further that SOE needs to do "something" about this "issue."

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Old 12-22-2008, 12:37 PM   #148
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I think theres a lot of blanket statements here.  Some of the zones can be duo'd with general ease, theres zones that can be duo'd, theres zones that take decent groups with competent players, and theres zones where you may want good group setups and better geared players.  How does this progression confuse people?

Go back in time to EoF, would you take a fresh guild through Emerals Halls and complain about how its too hardcore?  Or gear up on the easier raid zones then hit EH?  Would you step into the hardest raid zone with poor group makeups?  Sure you can do PR with almost any group setup, but does that mean you can do the other harder raid zones with any group setup (or why would you, to save everyone pain).  It's the same here.  I'm less strict on group make-up when going through Crypt of Agony opposed to going to Kor-Sha, for obvious reasons.  Nobody said you need elite setups in everyzone but, some of the zones doesn't it just make obvious sense?  To re-hash, same reason you wouldn't raid with a god-awful setup is the same reason lots of groups don't wanna roll with below par setups for higher difficulty heroic zones.  It's a good thing, if you could just take any non-coherent group through all these zones, with classes whos buffs don't match up at all, and ease through them all, the difficulty would be pretty poor.  It's so funny that theres all this fuss about group zones now.  They add a bit of difficulty and people start to realize how many bad players login to Eq2.  As for any game I've competed online in, the bad players unfortunatly outweight the good, and often the bad players don't even realize they're a bad player.

Grats to the groups with 2 healers who can't keep a plate tank up when my templar can duo  easy --> moderate  zones with my wizard - cause he can keep a cloth up better than serveral healers can keep plate up that I've encountered.  Same grats goes out when you pickup a wizard who can't even do 1.5kdps.  Try the Bolt of Ice button?

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Old 12-22-2008, 01:51 PM   #149
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Yella wrote:

If you play casually, you won't have that team. You might be in a small guild with other casual players but that doesnt make a team. Chances are that regularly those folk won't have a full group, and chances are when they on occasion do, they will have low levels of experience in a scripted encounter, which typically ends in defeat no matter how skilled they might be individually.

Also, you are confusing a lack of a team with soloing, which is not in any shape or form the same thing. There is some solo content in TSO, there is a ton of content for organized full groups, there is nothing inbetween, and that is what the root problem is.

You did not give any compelling reason why content suited for those people shouldnt have been included. Not including it was simply a dumb move, since it excluded a chunk of the playerbase. And it is a move that the game is going to pay with by bleeding subscriptions.

OOC.

QFE.

The above post explains it better than most others do. Some people will *never* understand that some other players are not interested in, do not want, will never ever EVER be in being in big guilds, into hardcore raiding, etc, and instead enjoy the informality of tiny guilds or even being unguilded, and grouping with pickup players, etc, and still love the MMORPG experience (even if for some casual players, they choose to HUNT solo).

Such casual-style players are not necessarily low-hours players (they may or may not be), not necessarily poorly geared with App1s (they may or may not be), and may indeed be clueless or experts at their classes, but what they have in common is simply the preference for the lack of formality and to hunt either solo and/or spend their time largely in duos and trios. Not all their time, but a significant part of it.

The typical raider/fullgrouper response on these forums, based on this and other threads over the years, seems to me to be "tough, (1) form groups/raids, join large guilds, make more friends, etc - ie change your playstyle ... or (2) just accept your lot without complaint ... or (3) leave".

My response to that has always been to players like that: "you do not set my options for me". Like other players on this thread, I will instead choose a fourth option - come to the forums and give my feedback, if necessary loudly and often, and ignore the usual minority trying to shout people giving feedback down, and keep repeating the feedback until the issue is addressed (or until SOE - not other players, SOE - definitively say that it will NEVER be addressed).

Feedback is, after all, what the forums are for. Whether players of other playstyles agree with the feedback has never been relevant, on this or any other topic.

I have to say, personally, I quite like TSO, and so have made little personal contribution to threads like this, especially since the instances can be mentored into. However, I preferred ROK, as there was more solo/small group content, and I look forward to there being more of the latter added into TSO soon. SMILEY

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Old 12-22-2008, 02:03 PM   #150
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

The above post explains it better than most others do. Some people will *never* understand that some other players are not interested in, do not want, will never ever EVER be in being in big guilds, into hardcore raiding, etc, and instead enjoy the informality of tiny guilds or even being unguilded, and grouping with pickup players, etc, and still love the MMORPG experience (even if for some casual players, they choose to HUNT solo).

Such casual-style players are not necessarily low-hours players (they may or may not be), not necessarily poorly geared with App1s (they may or may not be), and may indeed be clueless or experts at their classes, but what they have in common is simply the preference for the lack of formality and to hunt either solo and/or spend their time largely in duos and trios. Not all their time, but a significant part of it.

The part no one has answered though.

Why should a player, any player, be given a short cut through progression?

If you are poorly geared by TSO standards, that fine, play in the zones that are desinged for characters with such gear. The rest of us did, and got better gear. What is it about such a player that makes them think they are so special that they should be able to skip that? Did they ask if they could skip all of T4 as well?

The easiest of TSO zones are able to be done by a group wearing RoK solo quested gear. The next batch of TSO zones are able to be done by a group wearing RoK instance legendary. The following batch of zones are able to be done by a group wearing low end RoK fabled, or the gear from the earlier TSO zones. The last of the TSO zones require either top end RoK raid loot, or top end TSO instance loot.

It is that simple, which is why I can't understand the issue, unless it is simply the fact that people suck (which includes people trying to do a zone with an abysmal group setup, people not communicating, and people not knowing the encounters).

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