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Old 12-16-2008, 12:33 PM   #61
Lethe5683

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Noaani wrote:

The ability to work as part of a team should not be unnatural to any human being. If a person is unable to follow instructions from someone that either knows the content, or is able to figure out the encounters, then the question I would be asking myself if I were grouped with them is "do they deserve the rewards of what is supposed to be a team effort?"

I do actually have to agree with you on that.  However I still would like the easy instances to be just a bit easier so I can at least run a sucessfull pickup group during the time my friends are not online.

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Old 12-16-2008, 02:24 PM   #62
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TheSpin wrote:

evilbp wrote:

I'm all for challenging content but the new instances are to much for a casual player. My group of friends have trouble with the easiest instance zones (Scion of Ice). There is something wrong when a group needs two healers to complete the content. Now before I'm jumped on I mean group content not raid. I just don't see why the instances can't scale with lower loot rewards. It would solve all the problems and allow everyone to have new content.

There are dungeons that literally 'require' two healers by design. Not Scion of Ice, but I doubt anyone could solo heal Nuroga. I think your opinion of how it should be simply does not agree with SoE's opinion about what the majority of their paying customers want.

I can understand that you are frustrated when you struggle with new content, but I guess you'll either have to do what it takes in terms of gear and AA, or you'll have to stick with something you feel more comfortable with. At least there are more live events now than ever, and sometimes there's pretty good gear rewards with them.

I've been through Nuroga with one healer, no problems.  I wouldn't want to PUG it with only one healer though.

I like the variety in the new content, there's something for everyone.  I personally find Anathema much easier than Scions, once you know how to run the instance.  That's really the key to these TSO instances, is a little practice tends to make most encounters much easier.

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Old 12-16-2008, 02:29 PM   #63
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[email protected] wrote:

TheSpin wrote:

evilbp wrote:

I'm all for challenging content but the new instances are to much for a casual player. My group of friends have trouble with the easiest instance zones (Scion of Ice). There is something wrong when a group needs two healers to complete the content. Now before I'm jumped on I mean group content not raid. I just don't see why the instances can't scale with lower loot rewards. It would solve all the problems and allow everyone to have new content.

There are dungeons that literally 'require' two healers by design. Not Scion of Ice, but I doubt anyone could solo heal Nuroga. I think your opinion of how it should be simply does not agree with SoE's opinion about what the majority of their paying customers want.

I can understand that you are frustrated when you struggle with new content, but I guess you'll either have to do what it takes in terms of gear and AA, or you'll have to stick with something you feel more comfortable with. At least there are more live events now than ever, and sometimes there's pretty good gear rewards with them.

SoE is the one who has it wrong if they think that most of their players are hard-core.

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Old 12-16-2008, 02:38 PM   #64
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Lethe5683 wrote:

Noaani wrote:

The ability to work as part of a team should not be unnatural to any human being. If a person is unable to follow instructions from someone that either knows the content, or is able to figure out the encounters, then the question I would be asking myself if I were grouped with them is "do they deserve the rewards of what is supposed to be a team effort?"

I do actually have to agree with you on that. However I still would like the easy instances to be just a bit easier so I can at least run a sucessfull pickup group during the time my friends are not online.

Disagree.

While I struggle with alot of the TSO instances....the last thing I want to see is dumbing them down. Ive already seen too much of that. I honestly think that the overall intent of how TSO and these instances were designed to is so that players have a different experience...for each instance..depending on their group makeup..

There are alot of instances...some of which I simply will not volunteer to MT for...they are simply not designed for my class to MT. Thats actually ok with me. Do I think they went overboard abit with the instances being biased and favoring certain classes (i.e AoE) more than others...yes... But that can be rectified via tweaks to classes...leave the instances alone.

By the same token...I have run some of the other instances multiple times...each time the experience/challenge was very much different depending on the group makeup. Some were smooth and fun...others were a lesson in levels of frustration. Lesson learned....as Guard...going into a TSO instance with 2 wizards and a Warlock and no real hate xfer = NOT SMART =P

TSO has opened my eyes up abit to the diversity that exists between various group/class combinations.

They did a great job with the design of the instances....where they did not do such a great job was with how some classes function in those instances.

All that said.......I still claim that TSO is very casual friendly.

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Old 12-16-2008, 02:45 PM   #65
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We have yet to see the effect of the upcoming threat/stance changes to fighters.  Hopefully they will be positive all around.

We also have yet to see the effect of a group with 200 AAs across the board.  I suspect once people reach that point, many of the issues related to group composition will go away.

I'm reminded of the complaining about Vaults and Maidens when RoK came out- "mezzer required".  I've run them since more recently with no mezzer- just an abundance of DPS and a better understanding of the encounters.  I think we'll see that also with TSO instances once people get some shard gear and endline AAs.

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Old 12-16-2008, 02:52 PM   #66
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[email protected] wrote:

We also have yet to see the effect of a group with 200 AAs across the board. I suspect once people reach that point, many of the issues related to group composition will go away.

Bah you take the Wizards and Warlocks...ill take the Scouts and mezzers...we will be fine =P

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Old 12-16-2008, 06:01 PM   #67
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[email protected] wrote:

Lethe5683 wrote:

Noaani wrote:

The ability to work as part of a team should not be unnatural to any human being. If a person is unable to follow instructions from someone that either knows the content, or is able to figure out the encounters, then the question I would be asking myself if I were grouped with them is "do they deserve the rewards of what is supposed to be a team effort?"

I do actually have to agree with you on that. However I still would like the easy instances to be just a bit easier so I can at least run a sucessfull pickup group during the time my friends are not online.

Disagree.

While I struggle with alot of the TSO instances....the last thing I want to see is dumbing them down. Ive already seen too much of that. I honestly think that the overall intent of how TSO and these instances were designed to is so that players have a different experience...for each instance..depending on their group makeup..

There are alot of instances...some of which I simply will not volunteer to MT for...they are simply not designed for my class to MT. Thats actually ok with me. Do I think they went overboard abit with the instances being biased and favoring certain classes (i.e AoE) more than others...yes... But that can be rectified via tweaks to classes...leave the instances alone.

By the same token...I have run some of the other instances multiple times...each time the experience/challenge was very much different depending on the group makeup. Some were smooth and fun...others were a lesson in levels of frustration. Lesson learned....as Guard...going into a TSO instance with 2 wizards and a Warlock and no real hate xfer = NOT SMART =P

TSO has opened my eyes up abit to the diversity that exists between various group/class combinations.

They did a great job with the design of the instances....where they did not do such a great job was with how some classes function in those instances.

All that said.......I still claim that TSO is very casual friendly.

There was a point I stopped doing RoK instances and didn't want to do them anymore. My necro had to drop for a DPS class. =/ A friend of mine got booted from a Karnors (LOL out of all things) for not being specced "right" in AA.

This idea that you gotta have this class or that class for a zone, is very frustrating.

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Old 12-16-2008, 06:09 PM   #68
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I am part of a large casual guild ... well maybe not that large. But we have a couple groups going each night and a couple alts groups going usually.

I like the new TSo zones. The content is challenging and diverse. At this point I have only been in 6 of the new instances and a couple handed us our hats quite easily.

My belief is that a PUG, with decent gear and average players after a short time will be able to do at least half of the content. is that right ... well maybe not as all those players paid for content that they will never see. However the players that are getting to this content also paid for that expierence ... just as the raiders paid for all this content as well.

SoE needs to make an effort to accomodate all players and all play styles. Right now we have an expansion that accomodates groups and players that can work together. Last expansion we were given solo content and more raid content.

I for one am quite pleased.

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Old 12-16-2008, 07:22 PM   #69
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[email protected] wrote:

I think it's a really great expansion that isn't easy mode and is actually a challenge. For the hundreds of people that play EQ that like a challenge this is a good thing.

There is nothing wrong with challenge for the elite, the problem is when it is designed assuming everyone is elite, when they are not  (as is pretty clear from the volume of posts from POed players)

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Old 12-16-2008, 07:31 PM   #70
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Yella wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I think it's a really great expansion that isn't easy mode and is actually a challenge. For the hundreds of people that play EQ that like a challenge this is a good thing.

There is nothing wrong with challenge for the elite, the problem is when it is designed assuming everyone is elite, when they are not  (as is pretty clear from the volume of posts from POed players)

/sigh.. sometimes I think people just want something to complain about.

The new instances are hardly un-doable unless you're used to playing on af.

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Old 12-16-2008, 07:31 PM   #71
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[email protected] wrote:

Any easier and they'd be GIVING the loot away.

Come on, people. If  you can't handle: 

Oblisk of AhkzulAnchor of BazzulScion of IceThe AnathemaThe CrucibleEvernight AbbyMistmyr ManorCavern of the AfflictedVeksarNu'RogaDeep ForgeNajena's Hollow Tower

...with a pickup group and/or RoK legendary gear, then you fail at playing.

Every single one of those zones is *exceptionally* easy once you figure out the strategies. I walked into these zones (with the exception of Nu'Roga and Veksar...I still haven't done them yet, although many of our guild have) with RoK legendary and my fabled epic on my guardian + the shield from SoH. Everyone else in my guild started TSO in mostly RoK legendary/fabled, with a few RoK raid fabled. We had *zero* issues clearing these zones from the get-go.

Within the first 6 days of the expansion I had my first 5 pieces of TSO shard armor + 2 jewelery items, and a couple of nice drops. Since then I've added the shoulders and am working on my Advanced armor now. I've ran guild groups at nights, but have also done pickup groups during the daytime hours and with the exception of the two I mentioned, I have ran PUG groups through every single one of those zones with ZERO issues.

If you can't clear the above dungeons in RoK legendary, then face the music. You probably need some advice on how to play your class better, and/or the players you normally group with need some advice as well. Once you have the strats down you can run ALL of the above instances within an hour, hour and a half at MOST. My wife and I have the 3 Everfrost dungeons down to a science atm for shard farming on both mains and alts. You can walk in and run those 3 dungeons back to back INCLUDING killing all the named and be in and out within 3 hours. Add a quick 30 minute Deep Forge run and at minimum you just walked away with 8 shards for 4 hours worth of work, which is around the average session people play.

I've now got a guardian in 6 pieces + jewlery and working on his Advanced set, and my Ranger is only lacking his 6th piece for the initial shard set...and I haven't even done my epic yet on my ranger. He's using the freaking Snaggletooth bow from Seb. These dungeons do *NOT* require mythical or VP to complete. They require strategy and competent players who don't fail at their classes.

Allways funny when "casual" people offer advice based on the example of their "casual" playstyle, [Removed for Content].

The above post is about as clear as you get as an example of how most of the hardcore players just dont get it.

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Old 12-17-2008, 04:18 AM   #72
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Yella wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Any easier and they'd be GIVING the loot away.

Come on, people. If  you can't handle: 

Oblisk of AhkzulAnchor of BazzulScion of IceThe AnathemaThe CrucibleEvernight AbbyMistmyr ManorCavern of the AfflictedVeksarNu'RogaDeep ForgeNajena's Hollow Tower

...with a pickup group and/or RoK legendary gear, then you fail at playing.

Every single one of those zones is *exceptionally* easy once you figure out the strategies. I walked into these zones (with the exception of Nu'Roga and Veksar...I still haven't done them yet, although many of our guild have) with RoK legendary and my fabled epic on my guardian + the shield from SoH. Everyone else in my guild started TSO in mostly RoK legendary/fabled, with a few RoK raid fabled. We had *zero* issues clearing these zones from the get-go.

Within the first 6 days of the expansion I had my first 5 pieces of TSO shard armor + 2 jewelery items, and a couple of nice drops. Since then I've added the shoulders and am working on my Advanced armor now. I've ran guild groups at nights, but have also done pickup groups during the daytime hours and with the exception of the two I mentioned, I have ran PUG groups through every single one of those zones with ZERO issues.

If you can't clear the above dungeons in RoK legendary, then face the music. You probably need some advice on how to play your class better, and/or the players you normally group with need some advice as well. Once you have the strats down you can run ALL of the above instances within an hour, hour and a half at MOST. My wife and I have the 3 Everfrost dungeons down to a science atm for shard farming on both mains and alts. You can walk in and run those 3 dungeons back to back INCLUDING killing all the named and be in and out within 3 hours. Add a quick 30 minute Deep Forge run and at minimum you just walked away with 8 shards for 4 hours worth of work, which is around the average session people play.

I've now got a guardian in 6 pieces + jewlery and working on his Advanced set, and my Ranger is only lacking his 6th piece for the initial shard set...and I haven't even done my epic yet on my ranger. He's using the freaking Snaggletooth bow from Seb. These dungeons do *NOT* require mythical or VP to complete. They require strategy and competent players who don't fail at their classes.

Allways funny when "casual" people offer advice based on the example of their "casual" playstyle, [Removed for Content].

The above post is about as clear as you get as an example of how most of the hardcore players just dont get it.

I only play 3-4 nights a week, in 3-4 hour segments. It doesn't get much more casual than that. The difference is that I'm a 12 year veteran of MMOs who happens to play with high calibre players who come from the same background as myself, who have the intelligence level to know how to play their class with diversity. I wouldn't be able to call myself hardcore if I wanted to because I don't rate the game that high on my list of priorities. I don't spend my days browsing various class websites trying to figure out how to min/max my character because I already know how. I don't run a parser (leave that to my wife, and she only runs it on raids or when we run with PUG people to see who is/isn't doing their job so we can address the issues accordingly) and I don't lose sleep if I decide to spend the night watching TV or out at the opera rather than in-game.

I have limited time to play each week. I want to make sure that the time I do spend in the game is not wasted wiping over and over and over and over and "failing". Therefore I apply intelligence to my gameplay. I make sure that my time is not wasted, because my time is valuable to me, and since it's limited, I want to get the most bang for my buck.

Nothing about that is hardcore. It's simply making sure that my time investment is well spent. If I were a hardcore player I would be spending 6-7 nights a week ingame, thriving to be in the top 1-5 guilds on my server, striving to get server-firsts, and spending every ounce of my spare time polishing my [Removed for Content] and browsing all of the EQ2 specific sites to make sure I'm not missing anything to make me the uberest player out there.

The difficulty rating of TSO is not above average. The problem is that MMO players are being dumbed down over the generations with easier and easier content to satisfy the "instant gratification generation". There are no large time investments required anymore, 90% of the MMO market caters to the solo "casual" crowd, and SoE themselves slipped up with RoK when they introduced an expansion that mirrored everything else on the market. They know they have the last real "group" oriented game on the market and they are making an effort to cater to that crowd. I'm happy with it. All of the groupers are happy with it. All of the players who enjoy teamwork and thrive on a challenge are happy with it. The only ones throwing a hissy fit are the anti-social misfits who fail at three things. 1) working well with others. 2) overcoming adversity. 3) thinking outside of the box.

Casual players drive 15 mph under the speed limit.

Core players drive the speed limit.

Hardcore players drive 5-10 mph over the speed limit.

Powergamers drive 20+ mph over the speed limit.

Everyone has access to the same stretch of highway and the same end-destination. The only difference is the speed at which you travel. If you would rather walk than drive, that's entirely your choice, but don't blame the guys who paved the road in the first place and put the speed limit signs up.

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Old 12-17-2008, 06:46 AM   #73
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[email protected] wrote:

Yella wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Any easier and they'd be GIVING the loot away.

Come on, people. If  you can't handle: 

Oblisk of AhkzulAnchor of BazzulScion of IceThe AnathemaThe CrucibleEvernight AbbyMistmyr ManorCavern of the AfflictedVeksarNu'RogaDeep ForgeNajena's Hollow Tower

...with a pickup group and/or RoK legendary gear, then you fail at playing.

Every single one of those zones is *exceptionally* easy once you figure out the strategies. I walked into these zones (with the exception of Nu'Roga and Veksar...I still haven't done them yet, although many of our guild have) with RoK legendary and my fabled epic on my guardian + the shield from SoH. Everyone else in my guild started TSO in mostly RoK legendary/fabled, with a few RoK raid fabled. We had *zero* issues clearing these zones from the get-go.

Within the first 6 days of the expansion I had my first 5 pieces of TSO shard armor + 2 jewelery items, and a couple of nice drops. Since then I've added the shoulders and am working on my Advanced armor now. I've ran guild groups at nights, but have also done pickup groups during the daytime hours and with the exception of the two I mentioned, I have ran PUG groups through every single one of those zones with ZERO issues.

If you can't clear the above dungeons in RoK legendary, then face the music. You probably need some advice on how to play your class better, and/or the players you normally group with need some advice as well. Once you have the strats down you can run ALL of the above instances within an hour, hour and a half at MOST. My wife and I have the 3 Everfrost dungeons down to a science atm for shard farming on both mains and alts. You can walk in and run those 3 dungeons back to back INCLUDING killing all the named and be in and out within 3 hours. Add a quick 30 minute Deep Forge run and at minimum you just walked away with 8 shards for 4 hours worth of work, which is around the average session people play.

I've now got a guardian in 6 pieces + jewlery and working on his Advanced set, and my Ranger is only lacking his 6th piece for the initial shard set...and I haven't even done my epic yet on my ranger. He's using the freaking Snaggletooth bow from Seb. These dungeons do *NOT* require mythical or VP to complete. They require strategy and competent players who don't fail at their classes.

Allways funny when "casual" people offer advice based on the example of their "casual" playstyle, [Removed for Content].

The above post is about as clear as you get as an example of how most of the hardcore players just dont get it.

I only play 3-4 nights a week, in 3-4 hour segments. It doesn't get much more casual than that. The difference is that I'm a 12 year veteran of MMOs who happens to play with high calibre players who come from the same background as myself, who have the intelligence level to know how to play their class with diversity. I wouldn't be able to call myself hardcore if I wanted to because I don't rate the game that high on my list of priorities. I don't spend my days browsing various class websites trying to figure out how to min/max my character because I already know how. I don't run a parser (leave that to my wife, and she only runs it on raids or when we run with PUG people to see who is/isn't doing their job so we can address the issues accordingly) and I don't lose sleep if I decide to spend the night watching TV or out at the opera rather than in-game.

I have limited time to play each week. I want to make sure that the time I do spend in the game is not wasted wiping over and over and over and over and "failing". Therefore I apply intelligence to my gameplay. I make sure that my time is not wasted, because my time is valuable to me, and since it's limited, I want to get the most bang for my buck.

Nothing about that is hardcore. It's simply making sure that my time investment is well spent. If I were a hardcore player I would be spending 6-7 nights a week ingame, thriving to be in the top 1-5 guilds on my server, striving to get server-firsts, and spending every ounce of my spare time polishing my [Removed for Content] and browsing all of the EQ2 specific sites to make sure I'm not missing anything to make me the uberest player out there.

The difficulty rating of TSO is not above average. The problem is that MMO players are being dumbed down over the generations with easier and easier content to satisfy the "instant gratification generation". There are no large time investments required anymore, 90% of the MMO market caters to the solo "casual" crowd, and SoE themselves slipped up with RoK when they introduced an expansion that mirrored everything else on the market. They know they have the last real "group" oriented game on the market and they are making an effort to cater to that crowd. I'm happy with it. All of the groupers are happy with it. All of the players who enjoy teamwork and thrive on a challenge are happy with it. The only ones throwing a hissy fit are the anti-social misfits who fail at three things. 1) working well with others. 2) overcoming adversity. 3) thinking outside of the box.

Casual players drive 15 mph under the speed limit.

Core players drive the speed limit.

Hardcore players drive 5-10 mph over the speed limit.

Powergamers drive 20+ mph over the speed limit.

Everyone has access to the same stretch of highway and the same end-destination. The only difference is the speed at which you travel. If you would rather walk than drive, that's entirely your choice, but don't blame the guys who paved the road in the first place and put the speed limit signs up.

 When you (or wife) run parsers to check other gamers performance, you are no longer casual.  You used the word JOB in describing their group role.  I consider that hardcore.    Casual playing isn't measured in hrs/week.  I play many more hours than you claim to play.  I must fit the complete scrub catagory since I don't parse PUGs to address their JOBS to them.  I'm sorry but thats pretty hardcore IMO.  Casual players don't worry about casting order for the optimum dps.  We debuff then nuke stuff.  We don't tell eachother which aa lines we should be using.  We grats eachother when we ding another aa but we could care less what they do with it.  It's their choice, not the MT.  Thats casual in my eyes.  Its not about intelligence, we aren't dumb, we just don't take the game as serious as some others.  That Uber shield in xxxzone isn't that important to us. If we get one, great.. if not.. who cares?  Players like this (like me) do exist in the game and we've been here since the beginning.  Previous to this expansion I could grab 5 guildmates and do nearly any instance we wanted to run.  Not so anymore.  We aren't asking for anything NEW.  The last 4 years have been fine.  This expansion is different.  We hoped for new zones that where somewhat similar to all the zones previous in combat design. Which was basically tank/spank.  If you've played any length of time you have to admit that is what the game has been up to this point.

When the MT starts telling me I have to pick up my pace it becomes more of JOB than GAME.  If my adept 3 spells aren't good enough for him then perhaps he's a little more hardcore that he is willing to admit.  When he asks why I don't have all my shard gear yet maybe he's a little more hardcore than he will admit.   Next time you claim to be casual don't judge another players JOB.   I'll give praise to good players when I group with them but I would never confront someone on their gameplay.  Thats just rude and certainly isn't casual.  Thats hardcore.

If my group can burn through COA in 20 minutes then an entry level TSO zone shouldn't be much of a problem.  I try to run TSO because it seems I'm supposed to get shard gear or else I'm a scrub, unintelligent player.   My wiz is 77mc top to bottom in armor.   I've been told that I can't put out the dps required compared to a myth'd toon.  Do you really think they pick me over a better geared wizard?  Is that a "casual" mentality?   When "I" get judged based on the fact that my little cartoon wizard doesn't have a fabled weapon something is really wrong with the game.  I have the quest for it, but could honestly care less if it gets finished.  That my friend, is CASUAL.

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Old 12-17-2008, 07:10 AM   #74
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bks6721 wrote:

 When you (or wife) run parsers to check other gamers performance, you are no longer casual.  You used the word JOB in describing their group role.  I consider that hardcore.    Casual playing isn't measured in hrs/week.  I play many more hours than you claim to play.  I must fit the complete scrub catagory since I don't parse PUGs to address their JOBS to them.  I'm sorry but thats pretty hardcore IMO.  Casual players don't worry about casting order for the

If its the word "Job" which annoys you, i think i know what he meant with "doing their Job":

- The Tanks "job" is to tank: Hold aggro, get the right target, don't break mezzes...- The DPS classes "job" is to DPS. Don't overaggro but bring the Mob down.- The Healers "Job" ist to Heal. Make sure that the Tank does not die and rezz the overnuking DD's SMILEY

Thats what he meant. "Basic Job" means in this context, that everyone does just what his class is for.If you're wiping because the Tank is more interested in running through an instance without caring for his Teammembers,then there's something wrong (ok, bad example because Hardcore Players and Casuals should care for their group).If you're wiping because the Healer thinks its a good idea to DPS instead of Healing, well...

Maybe he should have used the word "Role" instead of Job... But if you're a natural speaker (unlike me) you should nowthat the word "Job" is used in many more contexts as just do describe Work-related things.

Regards, theriatis.

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Old 12-17-2008, 07:26 AM   #75
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theriatis wrote:

bks6721 wrote:

 When you (or wife) run parsers to check other gamers performance, you are no longer casual.  You used the word JOB in describing their group role.  I consider that hardcore.    Casual playing isn't measured in hrs/week.  I play many more hours than you claim to play.  I must fit the complete scrub catagory since I don't parse PUGs to address their JOBS to them.  I'm sorry but thats pretty hardcore IMO.  Casual players don't worry about casting order for the

If its the word "Job" which annoys you, i think i know what he meant with "doing their Job":

- The Tanks "job" is to tank: Hold aggro, get the right target, don't break mezzes...- The DPS classes "job" is to DPS. Don't overaggro but bring the Mob down.- The Healers "Job" ist to Heal. Make sure that the Tank does not die and rezz the overnuking DD's

Thats what he meant. "Basic Job" means in this context, that everyone does just what his class is for.If you're wiping because the Tank is more interested in running through an instance without caring for his Teammembers,then there's something wrong (ok, bad example because Hardcore Players and Casuals should care for their group).If you're wiping because the Healer thinks its a good idea to DPS instead of Healing, well...

Maybe he should have used the word "Role" instead of Job... But if you're a natural speaker (unlike me) you should nowthat the word "Job" is used in many more contexts as just do describe Work-related things.

Regards, theriatis.

Uncle Sam says: Join Valor (Home of the "Denglish" Speakers) ! Meet interesting NPCs ! ([get!MeinHerr/Gieriger]) See the Translation.... and cry :-/

The word "role" could perhaps have been used instead of job, but at least the intelligent people in the crowd understood what I meant SMILEY

I can think of plenty of times when it becomes necessary to tell an individual they aren't playing their class properly. Point in case was a couple of weeks ago we did Scion while on alts and we had a previously unknown inquisitor. Our pally tank's health was dropping into the red like crazy, which should not have been happening. My wife turned on her parser and started parsing his heals. What we found was this: the Inq was using his group heal 60% of the time, his single target heal 30% of the time, and his reactives 10% of the time, which was causing our tank to die repeatedly. 

Was the Inquisitor a "casual" player, or someone who was failing at his "job"? The answer is obvious. He was failing to play his class as it was intended. My wife happens to play a templar as her main, which is extremely similiar to the inquisitor in much the same way both druid classes use regen and both shaman classes use wards. Reactives are meant to be the main source of healing. On an average dungeon my wife's reactives make up nearly 70% of the healing done in an instance if she's solo healing, and around 40% if she's sharing the load with another healer (which we sometimes take depending on the instance). Letting another player know they are not playing their class as it was intended is doing them a favor.

If you saw someone driving down the highway at night without their headlights on, would you ignore them or flash your lights at them/let them know in some way that they were driving improperly? Any honest person would somehow let that person know that they were driving incorrectly and attempt to rectify the situation.

I don't play with Mythical people unless I happen to get one from a PUG setting. Our guild is about 1/2 flagged for VP right now and we should have the rest flagged by the first of the year. We are absolutely not hardcore players. But we are SMART players. Running a parser isn't about getting number 1, it's about making sure everyone understand how their class is supposed to be played. Most of our players have about 1/2 masters and 1/2 adept 3s, and their fabled epics, along with a mixture of TSO shard armor, RoK raid fabled, and assorted. We are very far from "elite" or "hardcore" in any way, shape, or form. If we see someone "driving with their lights off at night", we make sure to let them know to "turn their lights on" so they can "drive safely"

Letting someone know they aren't fulfilling their role is not hardcore, casual, or otherwise. It's smart playing. It's intelligence.

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Old 12-17-2008, 08:06 AM   #76
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Yella wrote:

Allways funny when "casual" people offer advice based on the example of their "casual" playstyle, [Removed for Content].

The above post is about as clear as you get as an example of how most of the hardcore players just dont get it.

Thing is, he is perfectly right with what he said.

I think you are confusing "hardcore" and "casual" players with "good" and "bad" players. Some casual players are good, some casual players are bad (the same can be said for hardcore).

Bad players, no matter how hardcore, have trouble in TSO instances. I have seen raid groups not clear Nu'Roga, which is a zone I have tanked without any significant raid gear in the entire group. I have seen a raiding chanter wipe a group on the Masters in Miraguls by using group control effects, only to be replaced by a non raiding, mastercrafted equipped chanter that was able to listen to instruction, and with a dead mob on the next pull (and an illusionist master in the chest too).

Gear helps, no question, but it does not help as much as players with a brain, who are able to figure out what needs to be done (and what needs to not be done).

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Old 12-17-2008, 10:04 AM   #77
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Why would you think that the easiest new dungeons are as easy as CoA???  This expansion is designed with new AA's and new equipment in mind.  The easiest dungeon should be a bit harder than Maidens/Chelsith (which they happen to be), and then scale up from there.  The problem is the "casual" player doesn't have the strats laid out for them on a silver platter for the names with the heavy scripting, and without that, you will die numerous times until you fully understand the scripting, but once you do understand it, the encounters become alot more trivial. (Marcus Thex comes to mind, took us the first night with numerous pulls with the different powers to figure it out.  Since then have fine tuned the encounter as we have had other people in the group who have had success on it in slightly different ways.)

As for needing 2 healers for most of the zones, I remember when 2 healers were needed for all of the RoK instances.  As people ran them more and more and their gear became better, the need for 2 healers dropped.  We are a T1 raiding guild atm, so do not have that oober VP gear or mythicals, and there are already quite a few instances where the 2nd healer isn't required.

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Old 12-17-2008, 12:37 PM   #78
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TSO is very casual friendly.

TSO is NOT stupid/bad player friendly.

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Old 12-17-2008, 12:56 PM   #79
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Exactly right.

Smart, casual players will progress thru TSO content.  Will they get through it as fast as a smart, hardcore player?  No, they will not.  And that's ok.

Most of the people I play with are these "hardcore" players.  Smart ones.  I've never seen them turn down a good player for a group - regardless of whether that person is "hardcore" or "casual".  I have however seen them turn down bad players left and right - some of these players are "hardcore" . . . some belong to "high end" guilds.

It has absolutely nothing to do with gear, "casual versus hardcore", or any other metric.  Our only "requirement" is that the players we group with don't suck.

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Old 12-17-2008, 02:05 PM   #80
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So basically what Im hearing is L2P or [Removed for Content].  These forums are starting to look like the WoW forums.  I would challenge all these players that say casual players can do these instances to try them with a toon that has around 115 aa and treasure/mastercrafted/legendary gear.  This goes for the entire group you try this with.  You will still have a leg up because you will know all the scripts and have done them with your uber characters ahead of time.

I'm not posting this because I dont think there should be hard content in the game.  I think there should just for the hardcore/raider crowd that can do it.  But for the casual crowd that has families and jobs the new expansion offers nothing.  Im tired of all the solo quest just like everyone else.  I wish that the Devs would just listen to the casual crowd and add some new instances for them and let the people who enjoy that do theirs and the others do the harder instances.  For me it has never been about loot,  it is about the fun I have with my friends.  In the new instances you dont even need to have void shards.  I would be happy for just new areas to go to with a group of my casual friends.

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Old 12-17-2008, 02:13 PM   #81
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Noaani wrote:

Yella wrote:

Allways funny when "casual" people offer advice based on the example of their "casual" playstyle, [Removed for Content].

The above post is about as clear as you get as an example of how most of the hardcore players just dont get it.

Thing is, he is perfectly right with what he said.

I think you are confusing "hardcore" and "casual" players with "good" and "bad" players. Some casual players are good, some casual players are bad (the same can be said for hardcore).

Bad players, no matter how hardcore, have trouble in TSO instances. I have seen raid groups not clear Nu'Roga, which is a zone I have tanked without any significant raid gear in the entire group. I have seen a raiding chanter wipe a group on the Masters in Miraguls by using group control effects, only to be replaced by a non raiding, mastercrafted equipped chanter that was able to listen to instruction, and with a dead mob on the next pull (and an illusionist master in the chest too).

Gear helps, no question, but it does not help as much as players with a brain, who are able to figure out what needs to be done (and what needs to not be done).

No confusion. If you read his description of how he plays, it clearly is an intense playstyle, which makes him hardcore and therefore clueless about the issues casual players face. He can offer all the advice he wants, but basically it boils down to "stop being casual, become hardcore", which achieves nothing.

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Old 12-17-2008, 02:31 PM   #82
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evilbp wrote:

So basically what Im hearing is L2P or [Removed for Content]. These forums are starting to look like the WoW forums. I would challenge all these players that say casual players can do these instances to try them with a toon that has around 115 aa and treasure/mastercrafted/legendary gear. This goes for the entire group you try this with. You will still have a leg up because you will know all the scripts and have done them with your uber characters ahead of time.

I'm not posting this because I dont think there should be hard content in the game. I think there should just for the hardcore/raider crowd that can do it. But for the casual crowd that has families and jobs the new expansion offers nothing. Im tired of all the solo quest just like everyone else. I wish that the Devs would just listen to the casual crowd and add some new instances for them and let the people who enjoy that do theirs and the others do the harder instances. For me it has never been about loot, it is about the fun I have with my friends. In the new instances you dont even need to have void shards. I would be happy for just new areas to go to with a group of my casual friends.

Ok here you go.

When TSO launched...I had mostly RoK legendary, RoK quest rewards, a few T1/Instance Fabled items..and even some MC stuff...Did not even have my Fabled Epic yet....and 1 T8 Master.  I had about 120AAs.

My girlfriend plays my/our healer...a Fury...she was similary equipped. 

Our guild is made up of families...in fact just about all our "core" players are pairs/couples.

Our guild has some better equipped players but for the most part we are all relatively equal.

I was able to run several (at least 4) of the easier TSO instances with my guildies just fine....Did we wipe..oh yeah...probably 5 or 6 times for most mobs/scripts.  Did we need 2 healers...yep at first...We figured it out. Now we can do those easy ones with just the 1 healer.   Are there TSO instances we have yet to complete...YEP...Are there TSO instances we will probably never complete...YEP.  Seems fine to me.

I can guarantee there are many more players/guilds like mine out there with similar results.

If you are having as much trouble in TSO instances that you claim you are....sorry to tell you but it has nothing to do with being casual or the instances or the gear.

Anyone that claims TSO is not casual friendly needs to look in the mirror for answers.

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Old 12-17-2008, 02:42 PM   #83
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Banditman wrote:

Exactly right.

Smart, casual players will progress thru TSO content.  Will they get through it as fast as a smart, hardcore player?  No, they will not.  And that's ok.

Most of the people I play with are these "hardcore" players.  Smart ones.  I've never seen them turn down a good player for a group - regardless of whether that person is "hardcore" or "casual".  I have however seen them turn down bad players left and right - some of these players are "hardcore" . . . some belong to "high end" guilds.

It has absolutely nothing to do with gear, "casual versus hardcore", or any other metric.  Our only "requirement" is that the players we group with don't suck.

There you go with the confusion again. People become "smart" players essentially by playing a lot (ie are hardcore). There are going to be the occasional half wits around who are not going to be able to do squat properly, but for everyone else, these "smart" skills come from a lot of practice.. I play casually in EQ2, but hardcore in EQ. With the raiding guild I'm in there, people's playskills may vary but I'm pretty damned sure that every single one of them could play any casual player (someone who logs on for an hour or two a few days a week) under the table. The main reason this is so is because these people log in allmost every day, and have co-operative play drilled into them constantly by virtue of what they are doing. They can do stuff (in most cases) allmost without thinking and by reflex BECAUSE THAT IS HOW THEY HAVE BEEN TRAINED TO PLAY. Your average casual player on the other hand can't do that, so from the point of view of people like me (and you, in the case of EQ2) they would "suck".

Now, they are subscribers to the game as well, and have the same right to be entertained as me, so I fully support there being substantial content for their playstyle as well. I don't expect that everything has to present some kind of challenge to me, in fact I expect large amounts of it not too. The solution is not for them to "get with the program", but for the "program to get with them". After all, they are the ones paying, and if SoE wants their money to support future growth of the game, SoE has to cater to them, not the other way around.

That is not to say that everything needs to be easy, there has to be hard stuff as well, but having everything hard is just as bad.

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Old 12-17-2008, 02:51 PM   #84
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[email protected] wrote:

evilbp wrote:

So basically what Im hearing is L2P or [Removed for Content]. These forums are starting to look like the WoW forums. I would challenge all these players that say casual players can do these instances to try them with a toon that has around 115 aa and treasure/mastercrafted/legendary gear. This goes for the entire group you try this with. You will still have a leg up because you will know all the scripts and have done them with your uber characters ahead of time.

I'm not posting this because I dont think there should be hard content in the game. I think there should just for the hardcore/raider crowd that can do it. But for the casual crowd that has families and jobs the new expansion offers nothing. Im tired of all the solo quest just like everyone else. I wish that the Devs would just listen to the casual crowd and add some new instances for them and let the people who enjoy that do theirs and the others do the harder instances. For me it has never been about loot, it is about the fun I have with my friends. In the new instances you dont even need to have void shards. I would be happy for just new areas to go to with a group of my casual friends.

Ok here you go.

When TSO launched...I had mostly RoK legendary, RoK quest rewards, a few T1/Instance Fabled items..and even some MC stuff...Did not even have my Fabled Epic yet....and 1 T8 Master.  I had about 120AAs.

My girlfriend plays my/our healer...a Fury...she was similary equipped. 

Our guild is made up of families...in fact just about all our "core" players are pairs/couples.

Our guild has some better equipped players but for the most part we are all relatively equal.

I was able to run several (at least 4) of the easier TSO instances with my guildies just fine....Did we wipe..oh yeah...probably 5 or 6 times for most mobs/scripts.  Did we need 2 healers...yep at first...We figured it out. Now we can do those easy ones with just the 1 healer.   Are there TSO instances we have yet to complete...YEP...Are there TSO instances we will probably never complete...YEP.  Seems fine to me.

I can guarantee there are many more players/guilds like mine out there with similar results.

If you are having as much trouble in TSO instances that you claim you are....sorry to tell you but it has nothing to do with being casual or the instances or the gear.

Anyone that claims TSO is not casual friendly needs to look in the mirror for answers.

And you play with the same people all the time. The left hand allways knows what the right hand is doing, usually without even thinking. Allthough you might think of yourself as "casual", in fact you are playing with the same mind set as a raiding guild. You are right, it less about gear, and everything about working as a team. What you are missing however, and by your own admission, is that you do in fact play with a team. So, things might seem "easy" to you, but they are not so for someone without the sort of team you have. The thing is that the content pretty much requires that team, but, as has been pointed out in a great number of posts, a lot of players dont have that team. What about them?

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Old 12-17-2008, 03:19 PM   #85
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*hands out tissue for everyone's Christmas stockings*

Problem solved.

Merry Christmas and happy crying!

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Old 12-17-2008, 03:22 PM   #86
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Wow, some people really have no clue what it truely means to be a "hardcore" MMO player.

When did playing a few nights a week with a group of friends and learning to work as a team become hardcore?  =P

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Old 12-17-2008, 03:24 PM   #87
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Yellar, I totally agree with your last two posts. Sometimes the aflicted don't know they are aflicted ... there are lots of color blind people that don't realise they are color blind. Apparently there are lots of hard core games that don't realise just how hard caore they really are. Time spent playing a game does not make you hard core or casual ... playstyle does. Having a Mythical Epic is pretty hard core.

Thanon, I like the head light analogy, but i stop there. You and your friends are not casual players. You might think you are but you are not. If you aren't hardcore you are certainly in the passing lane of the expressway that leads to Hardcoresville.

I do have to ask ... Thanon ... have any of the gamers that you "addressed" or "corrected" ever told you to f*&^-off ? Damned, that takes huge brass b^##s to be so arrogant. I can understand if a player that you invite to a group (notice I said you) and expect is a healer is playing their Templar as a mini-mage and failing at his/her expected role AND the main tank is dying repeatedly. Offering some constructive advise might be appropriote here ... but correcting them ? Telling them they are not playing right ? Who left the door open and let you out ? Do the leaders of the "playing right police squad" KNOW you have joined their efforts and are leading the local chapter of the "play right or die inititive" ? I grant you, as a main tank, dying because the healer was nuking would torque me and we might try to find a solution ... but I don't know if I would "correct" another player. I would certainly expect to get told to "f^&*-O##" if I did. Just my thoughts YMMV.

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Old 12-17-2008, 03:30 PM   #88
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Here we go one more time.

My little "group" cares nothing about progression. None of us even have our epics (gasp). I have one piece of treasured gear on and the rest is legendary. All my spells are Adept 3. I'm not spending 50 to 100 pp for a master. I don't have that much anyway. Everyone in my group is geared the same. In our entire guild we have two raid players they have fabled gear but no one else does. To someone that works 45 hours a week and has a family this game is nothing more than entertainment that is it. I jump on and play with friends I made back in EQ1 on Emarr and Prexus. Back then I wasn't a hardcore/raider either. People play these games for different reasons. I don't play EQ2 to be on the cutting edge of gear and my family group stays inside the guild for the very reasons I see listed in this thread. When people call out other players because they are not as good as others you need to stop for a second and realize that person you are bad mouthing maybe 10 years old or handicapped in some way. But since you are behind a computer it is ok to treat people like trash (L2P noob).

Not all of us are like that. I enjoying getting on doing a little crafting/harvesting and when enough of us are on we go out and do a dungeon or solo quest as a group (yuck). My idea of fun and your idea of fun are to totally different things. Dying 5 or 6 times isnt fun. I guess it all boils down to hating scripted fights. I had enough of all that back in eq1 in Hate, Fear, Air.

It kinda offends me when basically you are saying you don't know how to play. I think I'm a very good player. I just play different than you do. Do I judge you for your play style? No. I'm happy that you are happy with the state of the current game. All I was saying in my above post is that for casual players these instances are a little difficult and holding on by your fingernails during these instances isn't at all fun for me.

Also adding more solo quest isn't the answer either.

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Old 12-17-2008, 03:49 PM   #89
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Nope, I've never been told to F myself. It's also pretty rare that I do a full pickup group. At most it's guild group + 1, with a rare PUG happening when my wife and I are on alts. It also helps when you have 4-5 people letting the 1 person know "hey, you might want to adjust your tactics a little bit because you aren't playing your class properly".

Everyone I've ever had to discuss it with has been grateful afterwards because their enjoyment of the game increased once they realized their mistakes. Any person out there who refuses the advice of a veteran of the field (be it in any field, not just gaming) is a flat-out idiot.

If I were to talk into a convention of doctors as the simple freelance writer that I am and attempt to perform a simple surgery, like say removing a ganglian cyst from someone's ankle or wrist, I would probably botch the job and would have multiple doctors telling me what I did wrong and what I needed to do to improve my surgical techniques. Now I could either ignore those doctors, call them "a-holes" or "elitists" for trying to tell me how to do my "job", or I could listen, and improve myself for the better by following the advice of experts.

I find it incredibly amusing that I am being described as hardcore with my present playstyle. Apparently playing "smart" = hardcore, and playing stupid = "casual".

*continues to stock stuffings with tissue*

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Old 12-17-2008, 03:54 PM   #90
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evilbp wrote:

Here we go one more time.

My little "group" cares nothing about progression. None of us even have our epics (gasp). I have one piece of treasured gear on and the rest is legendary. All my spells are Adept 3. I'm not spending 50 to 100 pp for a master. I don't have that much anyway. Everyone in my group is geared the same. In our entire guild we have two raid players they have fabled gear but no one else does. To someone that works 45 hours a week and has a family this game is nothing more than entertainment that is it. I jump on and play with friends I made back in EQ1 on Emarr and Prexus. Back then I wasn't a hardcore/raider either. People play these games for different reasons. I don't play EQ2 to be on the cutting edge of gear and my family group stays inside the guild for the very reasons I see listed in this thread. When people call out other players because they are not as good as others you need to stop for a second and realize that person you are bad mouthing maybe 10 years old or handicapped in some way. But since you are behind a computer it is ok to treat people like trash (L2P noob).

Not all of us are like that. I enjoying getting on doing a little crafting/harvesting and when enough of us are on we go out and do a dungeon or solo quest as a group (yuck). My idea of fun and your idea of fun are to totally different things. Dying 5 or 6 times isnt fun. I guess it all boils down to hating scripted fights. I had enough of all that back in eq1 in Hate, Fear, Air.

It kinda offends me when basically you are saying you don't know how to play. I think I'm a very good player. I just play different than you do. Do I judge you for your play style? No. I'm happy that you are happy with the state of the current game. All I was saying in my above post is that for casual players these instances are a little difficult and holding on by your fingernails during these instances isn't at all fun for me.

Also adding more solo quest isn't the answer either.

We call sit here and argue all day as to what each of us considers casual.  I played EQ1 long enough to know what real hardcore is.  90% of EQ2 doesnt even come close.

Dying 5 or 6 times is fun only when its because we are working as a group/team figuring somethign out and getting a little better each time.  If its just wipe x 6 because everyone just wants a tank/spank then yeah thats no fun.

Actually the fun part comes on the 5th or 6th try when we win and everyone is proud and gratzing eachother.  We have often found we almost forget to loot the loot chest =P

My guild is full of players just like what you describe...harvest, solo, group-up....or simple sit in guild hall and chat.

While some are finding things abit harder in TSO....none are feeling left out. 

I will continue to argue that TSO is extremely casual friendly.

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