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Old 12-07-2008, 12:50 PM   #331
psisto

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To add to the topic, the whole idea of allowing small groups to obtain void shards from those instances would be very nice, and add to the general value of the game. right now, I feel the instances are just downright impossible by a non-twinked duo.

My friend and I (zerker + inq, a solid duo which can handle some heroic content with proper coordination, decentish gear) attempted Scions of Ice. I brought up both reactives to be on the safe side, then had him pull the first linked encounter, two double-ups guarding the first door. lets just say he was literally torn in half by their attacks, even BOTH reactives couldnt counter-heal the damage he received (he sits somewhere around 50% mitigation), and a second after, he was hurled into the next room. once he came running back out, I tried to heal him, but for some reason, I was also receiving damage, and before i could bring up another reactive, he was dead, and I took a dirt nap 3 seconds after.

we were literally SLAUGHTERED in the easiest instance of them all, and since we are only lvl 55 and 57, it will take a LONG time before we will even start obtaining raid gear and attempt this again.

edit: when we looked at the parse, my friend was hit for 700-900 each time, my solo reactive is master 2, the group adept1. still both triggers combined couldnt prevent him being torn up, once the solo reactive was used up, his health plummeted and he died before I could bring the next one up

edit2: another possible cause could be that we are geared in treasured/legendary gear, part found/quested, part bought off the broker. but at least as far as the inquisitor goes, the gear is the best it gets without spending more than all my plat on fabled gear on the broker. we kill nameds, but usually we get a piece of really useless treasured gear with bad stats, and quests give treasured that sometimes is worse than things two tiers below (I only now, at level 57 got to replace my augur´s sash of sagacity from lvl 27...)

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Old 12-08-2008, 12:56 AM   #332
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[email protected] wrote:

Noaani wrote:

First, w.t.f. are you talking about with RvR in RoK?

But Yella is entirely wrong to say that once they hit 80, "soloers" were left with nothing to do. He/she would be much more correct to add the qualifier "so long as they chose to continue soloing."

In other words you are agreeing that they DO have nothing do.

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Old 12-08-2008, 01:11 AM   #333
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Kendricke wrote:

Yella wrote:

No one, other than the hard core groupers, are saying that solo/small groupers want the same drops as full groups in even content.

I've seen several players who complainted there was no solo/duo method to gain void shards.  I can absolutely quote a dozen or so such complaints right now from players who are not "hard core groupers".  Speaking of which, what's a hard core grouper?  You think group players don't solo?  I wrote the book on Templar soloing. 

The instances have void shards and they have regular loot. Regular loot should follow tiered rules, but void shards should be awarded as a number per level of difficulty. Intrinsically there is no difference in comparing solo difficulty against the easiest group instance difficulty as opposed to comparing the easiest instance against the hardest instance. In each case you would award void shards based on relative difficulty, so a solo instance might award (for example) 1 shard, the easiest instance 6 shards, the hardest instance 18 shards, with ranges inbetween. Noone in their right mind who normally groups is going to do the solo instances since they could get shards 6-18 times faster grouping, however, people with fewer resources would still be able to do the content allbeit at a much slower pace.

As far as controlling who gets what with the void shards, it would be a simple matter to have specific buyable loot unlocked by beating each instance, similar to how things are done in EQ, but with a wider range of buyable items tiered to different power levels.

It would be a simple matter to create an inclusive system with replayability by doing something like this.

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Old 12-08-2008, 01:20 AM   #334
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Yella wrote:

Kendricke wrote:

Yella wrote:

No one, other than the hard core groupers, are saying that solo/small groupers want the same drops as full groups in even content.

I've seen several players who complainted there was no solo/duo method to gain void shards.  I can absolutely quote a dozen or so such complaints right now from players who are not "hard core groupers".  Speaking of which, what's a hard core grouper?  You think group players don't solo?  I wrote the book on Templar soloing. 

The instances have void shards and they have regular loot. Regular loot should follow tiered rules, but void shards should be awarded as a number per level of difficulty. Intrinsically there is no difference in comparing solo difficulty against the easiest group instance difficulty as opposed to comparing the easiest instance against the hardest instance. In each case you would award void shards based on relative difficulty, so a solo instance might award (for example) 1 shard, the easiest instance 6 shards, the hardest instance 18 shards, with ranges inbetween. Noone in their right mind who normally groups is going to do the solo instances since they could get shards 6-18 times faster grouping, however, people with fewer resources would still be able to do the content allbeit at a much slower pace.

As far as controlling who gets what with the void shards, it would be a simple matter to have specific buyable loot unlocked by beating each instance, similar to how things are done in EQ, but with a wider range of buyable items tiered to different power levels.

It would be a simple matter to create an inclusive system with replayability by doing something like this.

Void shards represent legendary and fabled set gear.  That's it.  That's all you can purchase with void shards - not solo rated gear, but group and raid level gear. 

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Old 12-08-2008, 05:10 AM   #335
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Yella wrote:

people with fewer resources would still be able to do the content allbeit at a much slower pace.

Still not getting it...

If they did this, soloers would not be doing the content, they would be doing some content.

You still fail to acknowledge or understand that instances simply can not scale based on group size. Because of this basic fact, if they did re-script instances for soloers and small groups, it ould be new content, not the same content but with less people.

It may have the same lockout, it may have the same instance and mob names, but that is where the similarity ends.

This is the reason that asking for heroic content to be scaled to small groups and soloers is pointless. It is not simply a matter of them creating a script to scale things back, or a matter of splitting the mobs HP and DPS into seperate buff packages for eack level range (as the TSO mobs are), it is a case of redoing the entire scripts, the time consuming and easily bugged part of the mobs, and the part makes them what they are.

It would seem to me that you have not run anything past the easiest instances in TSO, if even them. If you had, you would understand how hard it would be for some classes to overcome things like the positioning that some mobs need, the fact that many mobs require DPS to be on a target other than the named, the power drains that mobs have, the stoneskins that mobs have, the AEs that mobs have...

What was it that you were suggesting would happen to these abilities? should the mobs just not have them? if that were the case, many of them would be easier than the trash mobs leading up to them. Should new scripts be done for your solo mobs? or would it simply be a better use of developer time to make a new solo instance that players like you would actually look at as new content.

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Old 12-08-2008, 09:12 AM   #336
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Noaani wrote:

Yella wrote:

people with fewer resources would still be able to do the content allbeit at a much slower pace.

Still not getting it...

If they did this, soloers would not be doing the content, they would be doing some content.

You still fail to acknowledge or understand that instances simply can not scale based on group size. Because of this basic fact, if they did re-script instances for soloers and small groups, it ould be new content, not the same content but with less people.

It may have the same lockout, it may have the same instance and mob names, but that is where the similarity ends.

This is the reason that asking for heroic content to be scaled to small groups and soloers is pointless. It is not simply a matter of them creating a script to scale things back, or a matter of splitting the mobs HP and DPS into seperate buff packages for eack level range (as the TSO mobs are), it is a case of redoing the entire scripts, the time consuming and easily bugged part of the mobs, and the part makes them what they are.

It would seem to me that you have not run anything past the easiest instances in TSO, if even them. If you had, you would understand how hard it would be for some classes to overcome things like the positioning that some mobs need, the fact that many mobs require DPS to be on a target other than the named, the power drains that mobs have, the stoneskins that mobs have, the AEs that mobs have...

What was it that you were suggesting would happen to these abilities? should the mobs just not have them? if that were the case, many of them would be easier than the trash mobs leading up to them. Should new scripts be done for your solo mobs? or would it simply be a better use of developer time to make a new solo instance that players like you would actually look at as new content.

Most groupers are not going to be doing "the content" either. What they are going to be doing is farming the easiest instances over and over. This is what makes the arguments about the "distinction" between group and solo content stupid when it comes to currency.

In any case, you don't understand how a scaled instance would work. The script would remain the same, but things such as mob hp and damage output would be scaled down. Instead of level 82 mobs you would have level 72-75 mobs. Instead of paired ^^^ mobs you would have paired ^^ mobs or a ^^^ + 2 ^, like dungeons were in the old days. There are a lot of variables that you could play around with to make that sort of content available to more casual players. The basic idea is that you would end up with the same dungeon, but with easier mobs that could be done possibly by some classes solo, and by most people in groups of 2-3.

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Old 12-08-2008, 09:21 AM   #337
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Kendricke wrote:

Yella wrote:

Kendricke wrote:

Yella wrote:

No one, other than the hard core groupers, are saying that solo/small groupers want the same drops as full groups in even content.

I've seen several players who complainted there was no solo/duo method to gain void shards.  I can absolutely quote a dozen or so such complaints right now from players who are not "hard core groupers".  Speaking of which, what's a hard core grouper?  You think group players don't solo?  I wrote the book on Templar soloing. 

The instances have void shards and they have regular loot. Regular loot should follow tiered rules, but void shards should be awarded as a number per level of difficulty. Intrinsically there is no difference in comparing solo difficulty against the easiest group instance difficulty as opposed to comparing the easiest instance against the hardest instance. In each case you would award void shards based on relative difficulty, so a solo instance might award (for example) 1 shard, the easiest instance 6 shards, the hardest instance 18 shards, with ranges inbetween. Noone in their right mind who normally groups is going to do the solo instances since they could get shards 6-18 times faster grouping, however, people with fewer resources would still be able to do the content allbeit at a much slower pace.

As far as controlling who gets what with the void shards, it would be a simple matter to have specific buyable loot unlocked by beating each instance, similar to how things are done in EQ, but with a wider range of buyable items tiered to different power levels.

It would be a simple matter to create an inclusive system with replayability by doing something like this.

Void shards represent legendary and fabled set gear.  That's it.  That's all you can purchase with void shards - not solo rated gear, but group and raid level gear. 

Exactly. And the both the easiest and the hardest instances award void shards. The same void shard. Surely, by your argument, you should be getting a different shard for different levels of difficulty? Why should a shard earned in the easiest instance have the same value as a shard earned in the hardest instance? If they have the same value, why should a shard earned in some other way have less value?

If your argument was valid, then you would expect each instance (or set of instances) to unlock a specific item, so that if you wanted the entire armor set you would have to defeat every instance, and not just one over and over and over.

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Old 12-08-2008, 09:35 AM   #338
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Sure, give solo and duel boxers void shards.

One, a month.  I'm sorry, but why should you earn group rewards for soloing?  You can't justify it.

Go get a group, or drop the subject.  It's the same thing as grouping people whining for raid rewards for not raiding.

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Old 12-08-2008, 12:05 PM   #339
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Yella wrote:

In any case, you don't understand how a scaled instance would work. The script would remain the same, but things such as mob hp and damage output would be scaled down. Instead of level 82 mobs you would have level 72-75 mobs. Instead of paired ^^^ mobs you would have paired ^^ mobs or a ^^^ + 2 ^, like dungeons were in the old days. There are a lot of variables that you could play around with to make that sort of content available to more casual players. The basic idea is that you would end up with the same dungeon, but with easier mobs that could be done possibly by some classes solo, and by most people in groups of 2-3.

Yep, you need to run some TSO instances to realise that scripts simply will not work like that.

Taking a single instance as an example, The Crucible. How is a group of 2 or 3 legendary geared players supposed to be able to deal with the script of The Master, with the three mobs, the summoned adds AND the positioning? And when that is all done, you get the actual named.

Or the Codexicon, if you only have 2 people in your 'group' - who burns the books? the tank can't, they will get interrupted, the healer can't, they need to heal. Even if you bought a third person along they still are not enough, as you really need either 2 or 3 people just on the books.

Since it is not going to happen with content that is already developed, and nothing solo will reward the same as what a full group can do, you are far better off trying to get SoE to simply create 2 new instances, from the very start, one that is geared to solo players and the other to a group of 4 (tank, healer, DPS and 'other' so that everyone can go).

Funny thing is, if this is what you were asking for, and were not asking for the same rewards that full groups are getting, then 99% of players would support it, myself included (I said in RoK beta that there was too much non repeatable solo content [quests] and not enough repeatable solo content [instances]).

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Old 12-08-2008, 12:07 PM   #340
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Yella wrote:

both the easiest and the hardest instances award void shards.

Yep, but the harder instances have much better drops than the easier instances, thats the distinction here.

And no, that does not mean that it would be alright for void shards to be put on solo mobs, as it is still heroic level gear.

Yella wrote:

If your argument was valid, then you would expect each instance (or set of instances) to unlock a specific item, so that if you wanted the entire armor set you would have to defeat every instance, and not just one over and over and over.

TBH this part just tells me you have no idea what good loot is. Shard loot is the equivlent of RoK legendary set gear. There is absolutly no reason to wear it for long, as upgrades will drop for you in instances. The only exception to this is the shoulders.

People whom are able to run Inner Stronghold simply do not need the shard gear. They are not running any easier instances for shards, they are running them for achievements, quest updates, and the chance of a master or rare drop.

The people that ARE running them for shards are the ones that need to gear up in order to be able to do the harder instances. When they have done that, they also will not need to run the easier instances for shards to buy shard loot, because, well, they will have it already by then.

I honestly do not see why Inner Stronghold or Kor-Sha have shards, but they do.

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Old 12-08-2008, 12:11 PM   #341
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Yella wrote:

If your argument was valid, then you would expect each instance (or set of instances) to unlock a specific item, so that if you wanted the entire armor set you would have to defeat every instance, and not just one over and over and over.

Actually, the purpose of using shards across multiple dungeons instead of just relying upon direct drops is because it represents "choice".  Groups can choose which dungeons they want to hit.  If you wanted to hit the easiest dungeons over and over again to acquire void shard armor pieces, you can do that.  If, instead, you prefer to hit harder dungeons for a chance at better armors...and the chance to acquire void shard pieces along the way, you can do that.  It's not inconsistent in the least to put together varying types of heroic instances in order to acquire heroic level currency.

If you'd like to see a new solo level currency used to purchase solo level rewards which can only be earned through new solo level instances, I'd be very much in favor of that. 

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Old 12-08-2008, 12:30 PM   #342
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Plain and simple if they were to create dungeons or even scale some of the easier dungeons for duo-soloers then those dungeons should NOT drop void shards. If you want void shards group up if not then shut up, end of story and quit being greedy thinking me me me me me me I want this but do not want to put in the effort. Quit being lazy and get off your butts and do the content if not do not ask for it to be handed to you on a silver freaking platter.

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