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Old 11-28-2008, 03:07 AM   #271
StormCinder

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Dasein wrote:

Rijacki wrote:

Yella wrote:

It is about the content, because the content enforces competence.

Oh mighods! oh noes! what is the world coming to? We can't have anything that rewards competence!  Oh no!  we have to make sure everything can be done while the players aren't paying attention or even at the keyboard to play the game.

How much competence should be required? Further, 'competence' often means having the right group setup, so how strict should group requirements be? Now, how do you maintain the interest of those who do not meet the level of competence you've decided the game should suddenly require after 4 years of not requiring it? How do you keep the interest of the duoers and small groupers who've found their niche suddenly disappear?

I can fix this for you: form your own groups then you can set the requirements.  These threads where people are complaining about the 'requirements' for grouping in TSO zones, be they equipment, level or competence all have a common theme: "I can't find a group that will accept me."   These are the people that throw up the /LFG flag and sit in an inn room waiting for the phone to ring.

Take charge...form your own group.  It's easy.

SC

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Old 11-28-2008, 04:25 AM   #272
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Hey Hey

I really do not understand the people that yell and scream  that they can not clear all content the first day/week/month that an this went live.  I think the zones represent a wide range of difficuly that as time goes on players will find easier and easier. I am hope full that they relase harder zones in the future that require more skill, and comatance.  Sitting behind a mob going thrw my casting order 3 times is boring , make more named encouters where we have to think , and work as a team. 

For the people that a complaining about PUG's. You have many options the first thing you should do is find your friends list, i belive you press "y." When you find a tank that can hold agro, a healer that can heal or a any other person who knows there class , friend them.  Sooner or later you wll know who you can rely on and you form a community.  There are people in and out of my guild that i group with.  And generally as i set up the group and see what class are available and what gear the people have i can determine what instance we can go to. What is nice with 20 instance you can generally find one that every one is locked out of.  At some point however you have to be active , sitting on you hands and complaing is not gonna help. You do not need a perfect group set up, but the TSO just launched and there will allways be a prefered one , be creative actully try to think out side the box........

And for the Solo people.... i sat threw ROK with the few  instances and the few Herioc out door areas, if you think that ROK was not super solo friendly you should be playing a single player RPG.  I will admit that it would be nice if they added some more ^^ mobs that could be dou'd and quest lines where small groups would work.

All in All i came back to EQ2 becouse of this Xpac , first there are linked mobs , and secondly there is insentive to form groups for a wide varity of zones.  I tihnk all we need are a few quests like thuga that can be done with small groups that have both good storylines and unique rewards.  My only other complaint is that should be a 3rd tier of items and charms from the shard dealers, void shard are very easy to get and i can see people who play alot and do not raid being completly geared out in a few months , one idea that just came to me would be void adornments. and they can be player created but the mats are bought from dealers.

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Old 11-28-2008, 05:35 AM   #273
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If you have played EQ2 for 4 years and never grouped, you really got to find another game to play. It is awefully wasteful to spend money and time in EQ2 to just solo and duo for that long. Only a few possible explanation:

a. a master/shinny farmer

b. has very limited play time

c. a tradeskiller

d. a broadcaster in every channels (cover war,politics,sports..you name it)

e. a gambler

Looking at DOF,EOF,KOS and ROK, there is not enough content to hold a player interest for that long if you cut off all the group and raid content. I've soloed a lot with 2 characters at 80, 2 at 70s and 2 at 50s. Still has to do a lot of guild and PUG grouping to keep the interest. If you only solo and duo for the last 4 years, you really have to start grouping to see more content. To me building content for duo and small group is just a waste effort. So far never runs into anyone that only duo and never grouped in EQ2.

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Old 11-28-2008, 08:40 AM   #274
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Dasein wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bazaar wrote:

PUG's are not consistent, this expansion expects consistent ability.

This is a grouping expansion but it basically denies pickups, it applies to guilded players.

I think your missing the point that RoK had virtually no group content, and was geared almost completely to solo players.  Did you think this game would remain 90% solo until the end of time?

If you can't find a group?  Go *solo* in RoK.

Aside from Karnor's Castle, Sebilis, Chardok, Maidens, VoES, CoA, Chelsith, Veksar and RE2, you're right, RoK had no group content.

Yep, and you could clear every single one of them in one night with an intermediate group.  Veksar wasn't RoK technically, as it was only a teaser and patched in incomplete.

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Old 11-28-2008, 09:02 AM   #275
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Anduri wrote:

Yella wrote:

It is about the content, because the content enforces competence.... At the moment it might be easy to get a PUG, be they good or bad, but as time goes by, for casual players the only PUGs that are going to be available to them are the bad ones.

This made me both lol and at the same time feel very sad for people who are so inept that they cannot get a group due to their own incompetence. Maybe we could form a charity for them or something and group with them once a week and carry them round a couple of zones while they go on autofollow.

Heaven forfend a game should have a degree of skill in case we upset the idiots that might want to play it.

Thats not the point. Enforcing competence means a binary test, either you are so good or you are not good enough and may as well quit. The game should provide a graduated range of content for all levels of skills and playstyles, since it is important for any game with a limited subscription base to maintain that base.

What I was trying to say is that as time goes by, people are going to group essentially only with people the know for the most part. For example, if you invite a person from a known raiding guild into your group, you are probably going to get someone who is steady under fire and knows how to work in a co-ordinated way. These things are critical if you are running a script, irrespective of someones individual skills. They are less critical if there is no scipt. If the people you have available to invite are unknown, or are from some small casual guild, it is highly probable that they don't have those kind of interaction skills. Plus, you know they are going to be poorly geared. So, chances are that person will screw up during the mission or in some other way be inadequate.

Likewise, if you are looking for a group, and the only groups available are being led by someone you have never heard of before, or from some small casual guild, you have to figure that they are not going to have those skills either (and likely most of the group wil be the same), in which case the mission will be like pulling chicken teeth. Under those circumstances its better to go watch TV.

If you have 90% of the content using a binary test, you are going to have a big chunk of the subscriber base who might want to group, but can't because they are "too short". That will have a negative impact on the game.

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Old 11-28-2008, 09:05 AM   #276
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[email protected] wrote:

Dasein wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bazaar wrote:

PUG's are not consistent, this expansion expects consistent ability.

This is a grouping expansion but it basically denies pickups, it applies to guilded players.

I think your missing the point that RoK had virtually no group content, and was geared almost completely to solo players.  Did you think this game would remain 90% solo until the end of time?

If you can't find a group?  Go *solo* in RoK.

Aside from Karnor's Castle, Sebilis, Chardok, Maidens, VoES, CoA, Chelsith, Veksar and RE2, you're right, RoK had no group content.

Yep, and you could clear every single one of them in one night with an intermediate group.  Veksar wasn't RoK technically, as it was only a teaser and patched in incomplete.

Considering that a number of those are regular dungeons, I think you might have a bit of trouble clearing them.

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Old 11-28-2008, 09:07 AM   #277
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Logannx wrote:

Theres lots of stuff flying around about progression and earning your gear with blood. Seems some folks forget this is a game and only a game to a lot of people. The starter TSO dungeons could be a little more forgiving...a little. The player base could be a lot more forgiving and give non raid geared people a break and group them up with out asking for a resume. Ive been in a couple great groups of veteran players that ran me through some zones. They explained the strats without condescension. when I wiped us once it wasnt a problem. They didnt pull out parses to show me how good or bad I was. We succeeded in all the dungeons and had a great time. Now maybe in private chat they were saying..omg this assassin sucks. But they were a heck of alot nicer than the groups Ive been in up to them...and more successful.

If you want us less-than-oober players to learn something instead of having us whining on the forums about difficulty then group up some folks and teach them instad of telling us how easy this is for you. This is a new style of play for many people and there is no progression for it if you dont raid. So it starts here. If its going to be like real life where its all earned with sweat and tears then lets see some mentors, teachers and guides.

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Very wisely & nicely said.

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Old 11-28-2008, 09:23 AM   #278
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firewolf wrote:

If you have played EQ2 for 4 years and never grouped, you really got to find another game to play. It is awefully wasteful to spend money and time in EQ2 to just solo and duo for that long. Only a few possible explanation:

a. a master/shinny farmer

b. has very limited play time

c. a tradeskiller

d. a broadcaster in every channels (cover war,politics,sports..you name it)

e. a gambler

Looking at DOF,EOF,KOS and ROK, there is not enough content to hold a player interest for that long if you cut off all the group and raid content. I've soloed a lot with 2 characters at 80, 2 at 70s and 2 at 50s. Still has to do a lot of guild and PUG grouping to keep the interest. If you only solo and duo for the last 4 years, you really have to start grouping to see more content. To me building content for duo and small group is just a waste effort. So far never runs into anyone that only duo and never grouped in EQ2.

Prior to RoK most heroic content was pretty straightforward to do with small groups once it went green. It was only with RoK that most of that content dissappeared. There is still some in the older expansions that is still green. I've played since the game came out, originally solo mostly, then duo when I got a second computer capable of running EQ2. I did most of the older heroic content when it was green to early blue. Prior to RoK, heroic content was generally doable with a duo up to a neg 2 con (a bit lower with paired ^^^ mobs). The paradigm changed with RoK, and resources required to do any of the new heroic content massively increased. I have done some instances up to RoK, and some raiding up to KoS, but by and large it has been solo and then duo. Now, what I am seeing happening in the game is that content is either regular or ^ mobs (in which case it is stupidly easy to duo), or it requires a lot more than what my duo brings to the table. That "inbetween" content that used to be in the game from release until EoF pretty much completely dissappeared with RoK and now TSO.

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Old 11-28-2008, 09:35 AM   #279
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StormCinder wrote:

Dasein wrote:

Rijacki wrote:

Yella wrote:

It is about the content, because the content enforces competence.

Oh mighods! oh noes! what is the world coming to? We can't have anything that rewards competence!  Oh no!  we have to make sure everything can be done while the players aren't paying attention or even at the keyboard to play the game.

How much competence should be required? Further, 'competence' often means having the right group setup, so how strict should group requirements be? Now, how do you maintain the interest of those who do not meet the level of competence you've decided the game should suddenly require after 4 years of not requiring it? How do you keep the interest of the duoers and small groupers who've found their niche suddenly disappear?

I can fix this for you: form your own groups then you can set the requirements.  These threads where people are complaining about the 'requirements' for grouping in TSO zones, be they equipment, level or competence all have a common theme: "I can't find a group that will accept me."   These are the people that throw up the /LFG flag and sit in an inn room waiting for the phone to ring.

Take charge...form your own group.  It's easy.

SC

I can pretty much gaurentee that if I was organizing a run into a scripted instance, I would NOT be choosing you, no matter how good you were, simply because I don't know you. I wouldn't be prepared to risk wasting my time or my friends time on the chance that you knew what you were doing. You might find it relatively easy to find groups now, because people are in exploration mode, but once they go into farm mode, they are not going to touch an unknown with a 10 foot barge pole.

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Old 11-28-2008, 10:13 AM   #280
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Yella wrote:

StormCinder wrote:

Dasein wrote:

Rijacki wrote:

Yella wrote:

It is about the content, because the content enforces competence.

Oh mighods! oh noes! what is the world coming to? We can't have anything that rewards competence!  Oh no!  we have to make sure everything can be done while the players aren't paying attention or even at the keyboard to play the game.

How much competence should be required? Further, 'competence' often means having the right group setup, so how strict should group requirements be? Now, how do you maintain the interest of those who do not meet the level of competence you've decided the game should suddenly require after 4 years of not requiring it? How do you keep the interest of the duoers and small groupers who've found their niche suddenly disappear?

I can fix this for you: form your own groups then you can set the requirements.  These threads where people are complaining about the 'requirements' for grouping in TSO zones, be they equipment, level or competence all have a common theme: "I can't find a group that will accept me."   These are the people that throw up the /LFG flag and sit in an inn room waiting for the phone to ring.

Take charge...form your own group.  It's easy.

SC

I can pretty much gaurentee that if I was organizing a run into a scripted instance, I would NOT be choosing you, no matter how good you were, simply because I don't know you. I wouldn't be prepared to risk wasting my time or my friends time on the chance that you knew what you were doing. You might find it relatively easy to find groups now, because people are in exploration mode, but once they go into farm mode, they are not going to touch an unknown with a 10 foot barge pole.

And people wonder why noone can find groups.  This is the stupidest crap Ive ever heard.  If im forming a group then  I take whatever class I need unless i know the person sucks and cant learn.  If noone picks up anyone they dont know then communities never form.  Its about getting out there and meeting people to play with.  Most gamers dont always come with full guilds, they meet people along the way.  People they didnt know before.  Yes some people just suck really bad and it is known not to pick that person up.  Some are really good players but complete jerks.... it is also known not to pick that person up.

You should enjoy meeting new people its how you make friends, just like in real life.  There are bad apples and there are good apples but you will never know unless you pick an apple and try it. When you meet someone good... put em on your friends list.  Then next time you form a group you can look at your friends list first and sent that person a tell.  When you meet someone bad.... you will always remember that person so no need for a list for the bad.

Stupid statement that you made... this is half the reason noone finds groups anymore.  I see the other reason everyday

chat 70-79  LF more for instance group need healer dps

chat 70-79  80 mystic LFG

chat 70-79 80 wizard LFG

chat 70-79 LF more for instance group

You think any of those players send each other a tell?  Nope they sit and spam the chat with LFG and LFM.  Its pathetic.  What you are looking for is right in front of you but you either didnt pay attention or your to lazy to send a tell.  I see it all day everyday.

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Old 11-28-2008, 11:52 AM   #281
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Yella wrote:

Considering that a number of those are regular dungeons, I think you might have a bit of trouble clearing them.

Well if you want to go there -  regular dungeons with virtually no loot, xp, or reason to clear them.

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Old 11-28-2008, 12:02 PM   #282
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Yella wrote:

The game should provide a graduated range of content for all levels of skills and playstyles, since it is important for any game with a limited subscription base to maintain that base.

Deep Forge.  Scion of Ice.

Virtually no scripted events throughout these dungeons.  Only the absolute final boss in either has any real difficulty.  Even the most pickup of pickup groups should be able to handle either of these dungeons.  I've been in mastercrafted/non-mythical groups that have already cleared either in under an hour. 

You want progression?  There's your starting point.  Both dungeons are worth an easy 2 void shards.  Throw in a mission of the day here and there and you just doubled the shards. 

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Old 11-28-2008, 12:35 PM   #283
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TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:

IMO a major problem is the difficulty of instances isn't well signposted. There's actually a nice range of difficulty levels, but you can only see the difficulty of each zone if you trawl forums for player-created lists.

Thus, the average PUG I imagine goes as follows:

"Which instance shall we do?"

"How about Ykesha's Outer Stronghold, not been there yet"

I don't know about other servers, but I've not seen a single PUG forming for the outer strongholds.

Scion of Ice, Cavern of the Afflicted, Deep Forge, Veksar Theater, & OoA seem to be the most popular destinations for PUGs on Mistmoore, & guess what? They're also the easiest instances. I've a feeling players have a pretty good idea where to go for PUG stuff.

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Old 11-28-2008, 12:44 PM   #284
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Yella wrote:

Prior to RoK, heroic content was generally doable with a duo up to a neg 2 con (a bit lower with paired ^^^ mobs). The paradigm changed with RoK, and resources required to do any of the new heroic content massively increased. I have done some instances up to RoK, and some raiding up to KoS, but by and large it has been solo and then duo. Now, what I am seeing happening in the game is that content is either regular or ^ mobs (in which case it is stupidly easy to duo), or it requires a lot more than what my duo brings to the table. That "inbetween" content that used to be in the game from release until EoF pretty much completely dissappeared with RoK and now TSO.

If all this is true, then why are people -- who aren't even decked out with masters & raid gear -- duoing & trioing Chelsith? Unrest can be duo'd fairly easily, too, & this is just what I know.

Heck, you don't even have to be a fully decked out Coercer to solo Chelsith. & let's not forget that at this point, it's not true to say that nobody can duo or trio any of the new instance content. With these points in mind, I'm sorry, but I'm failing to see the huge lack of duoable or trioable content.

Im beginning to think people aren't even trying, then coming to the forums to whine about how hard it is & that they can't do it.

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Old 11-28-2008, 01:16 PM   #285
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[email protected] wrote:

Im beginning to think people aren't even trying, then coming to the forums to whine about how hard it is & that they can't do it.

Well this and they're likely attempting content they shouldn't be with poorly setup groups, or horrible gear.  I've actually found most of the lower difficulty instances in TSO to be dead-easy.

I suppose this is what you get when you cater to solo players for an entire expansion.  People forget how group mechanics work.

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Old 11-28-2008, 02:57 PM   #286
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[email protected] wrote:

Yella wrote:

Prior to RoK, heroic content was generally doable with a duo up to a neg 2 con (a bit lower with paired ^^^ mobs). The paradigm changed with RoK, and resources required to do any of the new heroic content massively increased. I have done some instances up to RoK, and some raiding up to KoS, but by and large it has been solo and then duo. Now, what I am seeing happening in the game is that content is either regular or ^ mobs (in which case it is stupidly easy to duo), or it requires a lot more than what my duo brings to the table. That "inbetween" content that used to be in the game from release until EoF pretty much completely dissappeared with RoK and now TSO.

If all this is true, then why are people -- who aren't even decked out with masters & raid gear -- duoing & trioing Chelsith? Unrest can be duo'd fairly easily, too, & this is just what I know.

Heck, you don't even have to be a fully decked out Coercer to solo Chelsith. & let's not forget that at this point, it's not true to say that nobody can duo or trio any of the new instance content. With these points in mind, I'm sorry, but I'm failing to see the huge lack of duoable or trioable content.

Im beginning to think people aren't even trying, then coming to the forums to whine about how hard it is & that they can't do it.

And, here i am ready to request a refund because only the solo content works for me, you know, i am tired of this blind aspect towards others who can't do what you can.

Seriously, i don't care anymore theres to many of you who won't believe me with solid evidence then what the heck can i do.

Nothing, have a fun time, i'll you know.... get my third void shard maybe next month sometime.

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Old 11-28-2008, 10:55 PM   #287
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[email protected] Bazaar wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Yella wrote:

Prior to RoK, heroic content was generally doable with a duo up to a neg 2 con (a bit lower with paired ^^^ mobs). The paradigm changed with RoK, and resources required to do any of the new heroic content massively increased. I have done some instances up to RoK, and some raiding up to KoS, but by and large it has been solo and then duo. Now, what I am seeing happening in the game is that content is either regular or ^ mobs (in which case it is stupidly easy to duo), or it requires a lot more than what my duo brings to the table. That "inbetween" content that used to be in the game from release until EoF pretty much completely dissappeared with RoK and now TSO.

If all this is true, then why are people -- who aren't even decked out with masters & raid gear -- duoing & trioing Chelsith? Unrest can be duo'd fairly easily, too, & this is just what I know.

Heck, you don't even have to be a fully decked out Coercer to solo Chelsith. & let's not forget that at this point, it's not true to say that nobody can duo or trio any of the new instance content. With these points in mind, I'm sorry, but I'm failing to see the huge lack of duoable or trioable content.

Im beginning to think people aren't even trying, then coming to the forums to whine about how hard it is & that they can't do it.

And, here i am ready to request a refund because only the solo content works for me, you know, i am tired of this blind aspect towards others who can't do what you can.

Seriously, i don't care anymore theres to many of you who won't believe me with solid evidence then what the heck can i do.

Nothing, have a fun time, i'll you know.... get my third void shard maybe next month sometime.

I'm sorry, but I've yet to see any solid evidence at all of what you can or can't do.

All I've seen is you complaining.

/shrug

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Old 11-29-2008, 07:30 PM   #288
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[email protected] Bazaar wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Yella wrote:

Prior to RoK, heroic content was generally doable with a duo up to a neg 2 con (a bit lower with paired ^^^ mobs). The paradigm changed with RoK, and resources required to do any of the new heroic content massively increased. I have done some instances up to RoK, and some raiding up to KoS, but by and large it has been solo and then duo. Now, what I am seeing happening in the game is that content is either regular or ^ mobs (in which case it is stupidly easy to duo), or it requires a lot more than what my duo brings to the table. That "inbetween" content that used to be in the game from release until EoF pretty much completely dissappeared with RoK and now TSO.

If all this is true, then why are people -- who aren't even decked out with masters & raid gear -- duoing & trioing Chelsith? Unrest can be duo'd fairly easily, too, & this is just what I know.

Heck, you don't even have to be a fully decked out Coercer to solo Chelsith. & let's not forget that at this point, it's not true to say that nobody can duo or trio any of the new instance content. With these points in mind, I'm sorry, but I'm failing to see the huge lack of duoable or trioable content.

Im beginning to think people aren't even trying, then coming to the forums to whine about how hard it is & that they can't do it.

And, here i am ready to request a refund because only the solo content works for me, you know, i am tired of this blind aspect towards others who can't do what you can.

Seriously, i don't care anymore theres to many of you who won't believe me with solid evidence then what the heck can i do.

Nothing, have a fun time, i'll you know.... get my third void shard maybe next month sometime.

Jeez, just get as bloody group and go do Scion of Ice or something.  It's not hard and you'll have 2(!) shards right now instead of 1 in a month.

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Old 11-30-2008, 12:09 PM   #289
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My suggestion, find a guild if you have so much trouble finding a group. I had problems finding groups pretty often, joined a guild, and we typically get a group together every night to run instances.

One thing that you can't do, is expect to be able to clear every instance with a PUG that doesn't have any of the new gear. There are difficulties assigned to the content for a reason. Also, most of the "Easy" ones require little to no strategy and are "tank and spank" names. The ones that do require some sort of strategy, there's usually a topic here or at eq2flames that tell you how to beat them, and you can always ask in level chat.

The instances are hard, which is GOOD don't take that away just because you can't find a group that can do them. Stick to the easy instances and then move up to the harder ones in a month or so once everyone has had the opportunity to figure them out.

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Old 12-01-2008, 03:48 AM   #290
Yella

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[email protected] wrote:

Yella wrote:

Prior to RoK, heroic content was generally doable with a duo up to a neg 2 con (a bit lower with paired ^^^ mobs). The paradigm changed with RoK, and resources required to do any of the new heroic content massively increased. I have done some instances up to RoK, and some raiding up to KoS, but by and large it has been solo and then duo. Now, what I am seeing happening in the game is that content is either regular or ^ mobs (in which case it is stupidly easy to duo), or it requires a lot more than what my duo brings to the table. That "inbetween" content that used to be in the game from release until EoF pretty much completely dissappeared with RoK and now TSO.

If all this is true, then why are people -- who aren't even decked out with masters & raid gear -- duoing & trioing Chelsith? Unrest can be duo'd fairly easily, too, & this is just what I know.

Heck, you don't even have to be a fully decked out Coercer to solo Chelsith. & let's not forget that at this point, it's not true to say that nobody can duo or trio any of the new instance content. With these points in mind, I'm sorry, but I'm failing to see the huge lack of duoable or trioable content.

Im beginning to think people aren't even trying, then coming to the forums to whine about how hard it is & that they can't do it.

Average class combos cant kill +2 con heroics, which is what is in Chelsith. I don't doubt that there are some who could do that, but it is poor argument to characterize that as typycal when you know damned well that it isnt is.

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Old 12-01-2008, 07:46 AM   #291
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Yella wrote:

Average class combos cant kill +2 con heroics, which is what is in Chelsith.

I wasn't talking about "average class combos", especially since I don't even know what you mean by this. I was speaking of a Coercer with Fabled epic being able to solo Chelsith. Add in a healer of any type & much of the challenge goes away. That's just two players.

The gear those two players have is all very obtainable by any average player who chooses to complete some group content. You can claim all you want that it's not "typical", to which I can only shrug & say, "So what? It's doable, which is all I said", & also to point out that any player with a modicum of skill can do it, too.

IOW, the bottom line here is that players who try to complete content can do it; players who choose not to even try are thus, in fact, the only thing locking themselves out of content.

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