Rangers and Raids - Needs Attention Before CoE

[jjlo69]

there was also some right side love in todays patch notes which should patch around 3pm pst

[Lethlian]

RangerArrow Salvo also reduces the base reuse speed of Storm of Arrows to 90 seconds and the base casting speed to 1 second.Crippling Salvo is now Hidden Salvo. Following the use of Rapid Salvo, the ranger's threat with their target will be reduced by 5% of the damage they inflict per rank.Meh thats the best your going to get from me on this one. First off even specing down the right side is automatically disadvantageous due to the horrilbe 30 to 1 ratio for Potency over the 20 to 1 ratio in Crit Bonus not to exclude that Potency is a more disadvantegeous stat for our class in the first place. Even with stream of arrows and storm of arrows now being part of the faster reuse and 1 second cast *club* still does nothing to trump the what the left side CoE brings to the plate. Really thats the best they could think of for hate reduction? Attach it to a CA on a side that isn't going to be picked in the first place (outside of an AOE heavy specific encounter) Also weak idea, oh look its mircale shot 2.0 and guess what! nobody still cares!

Just simply put the update notes, does not impress / don't care / No one is going to change thier opinion of ranger(s) usefulness to raiding, grouping, anything. AssassinIntensified Carnage now applies bonus damage if Carnage triggers when the assassin is flanking or behind their target.Imagine that, the gap continues to widen.

The sad fact is, they have soo many of us offering up legitmate ideas for change that are overall viewed as fair and acceptable from other players of differing classes, that would also legitmately bring an end to the gap we have.

I don't understand where the apparent logic, hate, rationale, or whatever it is they have for rangers comes from.

-Lethlian

[Davngr1]

the biggest reason why rangers are not as effective is because they aren't prime targets for RoA/jcap and the top parsing scouts are.    

  you guys should jump in with me and get scouts more reuse so we are at the very least in line with fighters who have about 50-60% reuse on average.

  this will shorten the gap between the top scout and the rest of the scouts that can't get reuse do to not being the "best" target or flat out raiding with nubs.

[Twyxx]

[email protected] wrote:

I found double conversion to be worse than left side by a lot on the dummy. Did you test that before or after they added the potency proc to the left line?

yeah.  just tested again on 5 min dummy fights.  453k left side with 1 in burning and 3 in dmg reduction.  446k in double conversion with the extra point in blazing shot.  if you factor in the aoe benefits of double conversion it's pretty much a wash. 

left side:

Double conv:

We're raiding in Beta tonight so will have some live fight results later.  Will try mix in diff specs.

[Lethlian]

Just going to throw this out there because the Devs still just don't get it (with each passing Update note)

As it stands right now this is what it breaks down to:

Assassins = hate transfer, soon to be insane amount of 12.5% MAX hp debuff (which has yet to still be nerfed)

Brigands = 9.5% MAX hp debuff, RAID wide beneficial mob debuffs, and a useful single target buff (thieves guild)

Swashbucklers = 4.0% MAX hp debuff, RAID wide beneficial mob debuffs, hate transfer, group dmg proc

Beastlords = 2 varying stances to supplement group/raids, Tons of various utility through AA specs/Warders.

Rangers = Temp buff that boost Accuracy (which is still debatable to its usefulness) /weapon skills (which has low end benefit to overcap ratios) and now recently a group damage proc (which is decent tbh I'll give it that)

Continued point being is this, lets say for simplicity purposes all the above classes dps the same amount. i.e 10% of the mobs health. Now the above ratios look like this;

Assassin will be doing 22.5% in dps to the mobs health, with hate transfer to MT or OT directly.

Brigands will be doing 19.5% in dps to the mobs health, with GROUP/RAID wide beneficial debuffs

Swashbucklers will be doing 14.0% in dps to the mobs health, with GROUP/RAID wide beneficial debuffs and hate transfer to MT or OT directly.

Beastlords will be doing 10.0% in dps to the mobs health, provide two seperate stances based on needs, provide more utility.

Rangers will be doing 10.0% in dps to the mobs health, NO DIRECT HATE TRANSFER, negligible utility to the group of any worth and the common debuff shared by ALL SCOUTS.

So tell me where the heck is a rangers worth to a group/raid, let alone to anything in this game? Rangers at present are THE most worthless class in the game and have been since the last time RoK came out which is now 5 years removed from the game. This is why rangers are mad/sad/bad, this is why we petition.

But alas even with this simple break down, THE DEVS STILL DON"T GET IT.

Respectfully,

Lethlian (the common sense and logic loving ranger)

[Shotneedle]

It (new assassin hp debuff) was nerfed. And now it was nerfed again.

[Floyd3421]

The subject of this thread should be expanded to include the desirability of a ranger in a group setup.  In many cases, the reasoning a group uses to decide which classes to include is the same as a raid.  I would even offer up that  it can be more difficult to get into hardmode group setups as a ranger because typically they are looking for an optimum setup which would only include a ranger as a last resort.  I've never seen a group posting in channel "we need a ranger".   Just typing that is laughable.

We need a significant ability that a group or raid would deem desirable when considering other classes. Currently, we're on par with other T1 dps classes, but with all else being equal those classes are chosen over a ranger because they bring more to the overall group or raid.

What we need is something added ON TOP of everything else that increases our desirability without any other classes getting a similar boost.

There needs to be a ranger exclusive boost in utility.

[Gash]

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

It (new assassin hp debuff) was nerfed. And now it was REMOVED.

fixed

[feldon30]

Twyxx wrote:

ZUES wrote:

And no, we're not tier one scouts! You may find a situational encounter where the ranger has a good parse but zonewide they don't even come close to any T1 dps class.

Check out the parse thread on Flames.  Other than what Buffratx, Koncept and the Russian necro are doing we're at least in the tier with everyone else.  The dps potential of the class is there.  Problem is there are only a handful of rangers pushing the max potential.

Rangers need to EITHER bring some group/raid utility to the table like:

•  a groupwide stifle/stun immunity for 5 seconds usable every 90 sec.

OR:

• Be the unquestionable top of the DPS parse. Not just potential, but clear and present top of the heap.

We literally have nothing to contribute to the group or raid, so for us to be "in the pack" with Beastlords and Assassins makes no sense. We should be in front of the pack.

Also, Rangers are the only class whose DPS comes at a cost of 15-30 plat per night. Seriously?

[Twyxx]

feldon30 wrote:

Rangers need to EITHER bring some group/raid utility to the table like:

•  a groupwide stifle/stun immunity for 5 seconds usable every 90 sec.

OR:

• Be the unquestionable top of the DPS parse. Not just potential, but clear and present top of the heap.

We literally have nothing to contribute to the group or raid, so for us to be "in the pack" with Beastlords and Assassins makes no sense. We should be in front of the pack.

Also, Rangers are the only class whose DPS comes at a cost of 15-30 plat per night. Seriously?

Nobody would notice/care about that stun/stifle immunity.  If you're going the utility route it is important to have the perceived utility be as high as the actual utility in a measurable way.  That's the only way anything will improve for rangers.

And yeah, I agree that's the way balance should be done for rangers...just up dps.  Ranger utility doesn't make a lot of sense.  The Assassin utility was well done, but I can't really think of too many ideas for ranger other than Neiloch's vulnerable wound debuff idea. 

I'm just realistic in knowing that they're not going to make rangers the top dps class unless they can sell it in a feature pack.  To balance us with assassins you just improve our dps by 80% so we're doing 18% of the parse in a balanced guild.  That would bring us even with the 8% hp debuff from assassins.  They're not gonna do that though. 

I'm trying to be patient and let Xelgad get around to our class, but if the expansion comes out and we received no SIGNIFICANT boost vs assassins and beastlords and not even a single response acknowledging or explaining the penalties/imbalance I'll become extremely disenchanted with this game.

[Twyxx]

Floyd3421 wrote:

 I would even offer up that  it can be more difficult to get into hardmode group setups as a ranger because typically they are looking for an optimum setup which would only include a ranger as a last resort. 

Yeah, I responded to a Sleeper's Tomb pug group looking for a dps in level chat.  Was told they didn't want a ranger.  They spammed for five more mins looking for a dps that wasn't ranger.  Pretty sad.

[shannontroester]

reading this was pretty funny, mainly because of the people in denial about rangers never gets old

Rangers=t1 dps scouts, if you believe it or not that's your own thing but it's the truth, maybe you just know bad rangers

Even though they are T1, they do need some love, doesn't even have to be a raidwide buff, just a decent groupwide buff would be good enough to make the people that are in denial about rangers finally see the light and want them in groups in other then "last resort" type measures

[Lethlian]

shannontroester wrote:

reading this was pretty funny, mainly because of the people in denial about rangers never gets old

Rangers=t1 dps scouts, if you believe it or not that's your own thing but it's the truth, maybe you just know bad rangers

Even though they are T1, they do need some love, doesn't even have to be a raidwide buff, just a decent groupwide buff would be good enough to make the people that are in denial about rangers finally see the light and want them in groups in other then "last resort" type measures

/Facepalm

Ignorance never gets old either.

Go ahead and tell that wonderful little pep talk you just posted to every guild leader or officer in the top WW 25 guilds, or to the players the play assassins, beastlords, wizards or warlocks.

You'll get laughed at so long and hard, you would want to leave the game.

Awesome mang, go ahead and tell Twyxx, Neiloch, Errror, and Uncle there bad. (I'll admit I'm prolly bad but eh.)

And go ahead and ask them because of how awesome thier DPS is how many times they get the optimal group for it over the beastlord or assassin? Or better yet ask them how many times they're asked to play alts.

There's no amount of cute little bag-o-tricks features (like they've been doing all beta long) the devs can give us that is going to change our class position and preception by the community to bring us inline. Because ultimately preception is reality and that reality is at this very moment still, is that rangers are the most worthless class of all the 25 classes you can choose from.

The devs literally need to make a feature for rangers ONLY that makes every other 24 classes in unison say "WOW RANGERS GOT THAT!? THEY"RE FREAKING AWESOME NOW!!! I'M GOING  TO GO BETRAY MY ASSASSIN or I"M GOING TO GO MAKE A RANGER!"

Rangers have been waiting for that moment for 5 plus years now. I think Neiloch said it best, "by the time rangers finally get up to par, we'll all be playing the 2nd expac into EQnext."

I'll apologize ahead of time if I came off a bit too condescending but after 5 years of playing this game and waiting for rangers to amount to something, its post(s) like these that just sometimes irratate me.

Respectfully,

Lethlian (The logic and common sense loving ranger)

[shannontroester]

Lethlian wrote:

shannontroester wrote:

reading this was pretty funny, mainly because of the people in denial about rangers never gets old

Rangers=t1 dps scouts, if you believe it or not that's your own thing but it's the truth, maybe you just know bad rangers

Even though they are T1, they do need some love, doesn't even have to be a raidwide buff, just a decent groupwide buff would be good enough to make the people that are in denial about rangers finally see the light and want them in groups in other then "last resort" type measures

/Facepalm

Ignorance never gets old either.

Go ahead and tell that wonderful little pep talk you just posted to every guild leader or officer in the top WW 25 guilds, or to the players the play assassins, beastlords, wizards or warlocks.

You'll get laughed at so long and hard, you would want to leave the game.

Awesome mang, go ahead and tell Twyxx, Neiloch, Errror, and Uncle there bad. (I'll admit I'm prolly bad but eh.)

And go ahead and ask them because of how awesome thier DPS is how many times they get the optimal group for it over the beastlord or assassin? Or better yet ask them how many times they're asked to play alts.

There's no amount of cute little bag-o-tricks features (like they've been doing all beta long) the devs can give us that is going to change our class position and preception by the community to bring us inline. Because ultimately preception is reality and that reality is at this very moment still, is that rangers are the most worthless class of all the 25 classes you can choose from.

The devs literally need to make a feature for rangers ONLY that makes every other 24 classes in unison say "WOW RANGERS GOT THAT!? THEY"RE FREAKING AWESOME NOW!!! I'M GOING  TO GO BETRAY MY ASSASSIN or I"M GOING TO GO MAKE A RANGER!"

Rangers have been waiting for that moment for 5 plus years now. I think Neiloch said it best, "by the time rangers finally get up to par, we'll all be playing the 2nd expac into EQnext."

I'll apologize ahead of time if I came off a bit too condescending but after 5 years of playing this game and waiting for rangers to amount to something, its post(s) like these that just sometimes irratate me.

Respectfully,

Lethlian (The logic and common sense loving ranger)

you obviously don't know me nor know who I know, which makes this all the more funny cause of our BS this is I am not talking about some random pug group of people wanting a ranger (cause most people are dumb and don't see the true value of a ranger) and probably never will, even if rangers get something awesome but as for top guilds, I mean, talking to buffrat back when I was in equil, he would also say rangers dps just fine as they are, I would honestly be shocked if Uncle got denied to a group really, was shocked to read Tywxx got denied to a pug group (again, most randoms are dumb)

from what I know, basically this is how dps follows in "top" guilds, most times

if say buffrat did 1.1-1.2 mil on a fight, Tywxx would be around 900-1mil, that's close enough imo to be considered same tier

[Landiin]

shannontroester wrote:

...

Lets see every top end ranger,scratch that, ever ranger but you thinks other wise.

[Landiin]

Twyxx wrote:

I'm trying to be patient and let Xelgad get around to our class, but if the expansion comes out and we received no SIGNIFICANT boost vs assassins and beastlords and not even a single response acknowledging or explaining the penalties/imbalance I'll become extremely disenchanted with this game.

I'm with you Twyxx. I am just now really getting into playing the ranger at a respectable level. I do enjoy the way they have to be played to get the most out of them. But it gets disheartening to always get put in subprime group because people feel others bring more to the group

[Neiloch]

I haven't said that Ranger DPS was 'bad' lately, closest thing to that I and most others ever said is what Feldon laid out: for proper balance we need some significant utility others see as valuable or our DPS cranked up so we are undisputed top DPS.

Matching T1 DPS is nice but it is bitter sweet when we don't have anywhere close to the utility of other T1 DPS classes. Which is kind of sad considering T1 DPS is supposed to have the least utility, but beastlords kind of killed that concept so I don't see why we can't get a respectable boost.

As for PUG's, there is no accounting for their ignorance since they usually have a lot of it.

[ZUES]

I've been going over parses of 5 raid guilds and you guys are crazy if you think rangers are tier one dps. And the whole point of this thread was utility, not dps. Rangers know that if a push doesn't go in before CoE launch, they will not be raiding this entire expansion.

[shannontroester]

ZUES wrote:

I've been going over parses of 5 raid guilds and you guys are crazy if you think rangers are tier one dps. And the whole point of this thread was utility, not dps. Rangers know that if a push doesn't go in before CoE launch, they will not be raiding this entire expansion.

see? this is the kinda stuff that just makes me lol

[Orthureon]

shannontroester wrote:

See? this is the kinda stuff that just makes me lol

That was a very constructive post that added a lot of useful insight and information to the thread, keep posting...

[feldon30]

shannontroester wrote:

ZUES wrote:

I've been going over parses of 5 raid guilds and you guys are crazy if you think rangers are tier one dps. And the whole point of this thread was utility, not dps. Rangers know that if a push doesn't go in before CoE launch, they will not be raiding this entire expansion.

see? this is the kinda stuff that just makes me lol

You claim to be somebody, yet you are mocking Twyxx (ranger in WW1st guild) and ZEUS. Credentials please. Backup what you are saying with facts or leave it.

shannontroester wrote:

if say buffrat did 1.1-1.2 mil on a fight, Tywxx would be around 900-1mil, that's close enough imo to be considered same tier

Yeah. The utility of a Beastlord with Pet is totally comparable to a Ranger which brings NOTHING to the raid. It's perfectly ok that Rangers do less DPS.

Every other Scout brings huge things to the table. Rangers bring nothing. Therefore, ranger DPS shouldn't be "in the same tier". We should be on top and unquestionably so.

[shannontroester]

feldon30 wrote:

Yeah. The utility of a Beastlord with Pet is totally comparable to a Ranger which brings NOTHING to the raid. It's perfectly ok that Rangers do less DPS.

Every other Scout brings huge things to the table. Rangers bring nothing. Therefore, ranger DPS shouldn't be "in the same tier". We should be on top and unquestionably so.

you're assuming BLs actually bring something to the raid other then dps? hmm, they don't have a hate transfer, the pet they currently use doesn't have a group buff, they do have a buff that gives the group 2.5 pot (awesome)? and they usually never run in spirtual stance

[Neiloch]

shannontroester wrote:

they do have a buff that gives the group 2.5 pot (awesome)? and they usually never run in spirtual stance

1. 2.5 pot is almost infinitely more useful than what rangers bring to a group

2. The argument they can't do DPs in spiritual or support in DPS stance is weak at best. Same load of bull I heard with recklessness. The very concept that suddenly one class can realistically fill two roles in meaningful ways while others can not is the issue. It doesn't become irrelevant or minor just because they can't do it at the same time. If its such a non-issue then give rangers a shaman stance or a bard equivalent stance if that's easier. I mean it won't be OP since we can't do high DPS in it right? We can just completely change our role with a few clicks. Oh and also make sure not to give any of the other scouts an alternate, raid viable stance. No biggie.

You are powerfully, intensely wrong. I would suggest yielding rather than continuing to argue this position as it will only lead to your embarrassment.

[shannontroester]

[email protected] wrote:

shannontroester wrote:

they do have a buff that gives the group 2.5 pot (awesome)? and they usually never run in spirtual stance

1. 2.5 pot is almost infinitely more useful than what rangers bring to a group

2. The argument they can't do DPs in spiritual or support in DPS stance is weak at best. Same load of bull I heard with recklessness. The very concept that suddenly one class can realistically fill two roles in meaningful ways while others can not is the issue. It doesn't become irrelevant or minor just because they can't do it at the same time. If its such a non-issue then give rangers a shaman stance or a bard equivalent stance if that's easier. I mean it won't be OP since we can't do high DPS in it right? We can just completely change our role with a few clicks. Oh and also make sure not to give any of the other scouts an alternate, raid viable stance. No biggie.

You are powerfully, intensely wrong. I would suggest yielding rather than continuing to argue this position as it will only lead to your embarrassment.

you completely did not even understand the meaning, which is sad.

it wasn't that you couldn't dps in spiritual, as I never said that, it's that no one runs it because it's usefulness is low at best. even with the new locked prestige points a BL still wouldn't go down the spirit line just for the CB converstion to say the least cause it's pointless

[ZUES]

Poor beastlords. Let me get you a tissue.

[Neiloch]

shannontroester wrote:

you completely did not even understand the meaning, which is sad.

it wasn't that you couldn't dps in spiritual, as I never said that, it's that no one runs it because it's usefulness is low at best. even with the new locked prestige points a BL still wouldn't go down the spirit line just for the CB converstion to say the least cause it's pointless

Ones I played with who knew what they were doing could keep a group easily full with power on power drain raid fights and heal pretty well considering they aren't priests. Never mind the numerous utility benefits that just can't be 'parsed.'

Hate xfers and pet group buffs are marginal these days. You think these are big deals, do ya? So whats sad is you think the usefulness is low. Stop playing with bads. People didn't switch to beastlords because they are only as good as other classes or worse.

Having dual roles is usually not as good as a class that does that role primarily depending on the player, but doesn't change the fact that they can do two roles while others can't. Ever. Just because they can't heal or support as well as a utility or priest class doesn't mean its irrelevent. It's not a binary issue where its T1 DPs or nothing, priest heals or nothing, bard/enchanter level utility or nothing, there are degrees of effectiveness.

As it stands beastlords utility to DPS ratio blows all other DPS classes out of the water while rangers are at the bottom of the barrel. Lower DPS and lower utility with nothing to show for it.

That's the point.

[ZUES]

^

[Orthureon]

[email protected] wrote:

while rangers are at the bottom of the barrel. Lower DPS and lower utility with nothing to show for it.

That's the point.

What are you talking about??? I mean look at all the op stuff we get!!!

• Thorny Trap "OOO!"
• Hookshot "AHH!"
• Our super fast casting combat arts with low reuse. "WOW!"
• Hawk Attack "UNBELIEVABLE!"
• Killer Instinct "OH MY GOD!"
• Conservation "AMAZING!"
• Snipe "INSANE!"
• Coverage "ASTOUNDING!"
• Tier 1 DPS(ish) "OUTSTANDING!"
• Amazing group buffs... oh wait
• AH I GOT IT!!! Amazing self buffs... oh wait nm

We are by FAR and away the most OP class when it comes to massive arrow consumption... I mean that has to mean something right lol

/end sarcasm

Speaking of which there should be special arrows exclusively available to Rangers that do 2-3 times the damage of top of the line arrows that everyone else can use.

When you look at nearly any other DPS class we get nothing of any real worth that is amazing for soloing, grouping or raiding. Whereas every other scout or mage has something to bring to the table in any of those realms. Heck our snares don't even work on many mobs anymore so soloing is kind of pointless.

[ZUES]

^

[shannontroester]

it's like people don't even read what is written, of course the point is rangers dps to utility ratio is low, that's what I said in my exact first post /sigh, I said that their dps is fine, just give them a decent group (not even raid) buff of some kind to compete, it doesn't have to be super OP by any means

again exactly what I said in the first post, people need to learn to read instead of just go off on their own, but here it is, cause I like to help the bads sometimes with reading.

shannontroester wrote:

reading this was pretty funny, mainly because of the people in denial about rangers never gets old

Rangers=t1 dps scouts, if you believe it or not that's your own thing but it's the truth, maybe you just know bad rangers

Even though they are T1, they do need some love, doesn't even have to be a raidwide buff, just a decent groupwide buff would be good enough to make the people that are in denial about rangers finally see the light and want them in groups in other then "last resort" type measures

[email protected] wrote:

As it stands beastlords utility to DPS ratio blows all other DPS classes out of the water while rangers are at the bottom of the barrel. Lower DPS and lower utility with nothing to show for it.

That's the point.