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Old 07-11-2012, 12:16 PM   #1
Yimway

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I'm curious if what is on test is the intended result.

The gear available from BG grinding is now on par with raid gear stat wise.  For the most part you are just trading some yellow/red adorn slots for blue slots.   This is particularly disturbing when you consider the consolidation of many blue stats as no longer being segmented between PVP/PVE.

While I'm in favor of the two gear types being more compatible between systems, I question if they should be equally as viable.

You need to look at each piece and compair the BG vs the Raid piece and consider how little you may be giving up for the BG piece and not needing to do anything but participate in BGs to get it.

Many of us continue to play EQ2 cause its the best raiding game available, but when you present a system that you can get the same rewards from doing something solo/independent as you get from something that requires 24 people working cooperatively multiple days a week months on end, you remove much of the percieved value in continueing to play.

I post as I have a contigent of players who make no qualms about quitting this game if what is on test goes live.

My question is, what other penalty might I have using pvp gear for pve?  What amount of effectiveness is reasonable using gear rewarded for one playstyle in another?

Conversely,  I don't think my PVE raid gear should be equally effective in PVP play.  Certainly it should have some, maybe even semi-significant, but using real end game PVP gear should be significantly better than using PVE raid gear in pvp combat.   Looking at the blue adorns available for those slots, it does feel like to me that PVP end gear will be soundly better than PVE gear in pvp combat.

However, the same is not true in using PVP gear in PVE with what is on test.  Now, if you're of the tiny margin of raiders kitting out in PoW gear, maybe the BG gear isn't comparable, but for the vast majority of players the BG gear becomes the best thing they can get for a number of their slots, and therein lies the issue with these changes. 

Compair also the gear from PVE heroic content with the BG rewards, and why do heroic content at all?  Heroic content vs the RNG and the social issues of finding a group that can gel together, vs just queuing BG's and win or lose you make progress to your reward.

Is this really the design SoE plans and wants to put forth?  Do you want to send that message to your players?

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Old 07-11-2012, 12:23 PM   #2
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[email protected] wrote:

However, the same is not true in using PVP gear in PVE with what is on test.  Now, if you're of the tiny margin of raiders kitting out in PoW gear, maybe the BG gear isn't comparable, but for the vast majority of players the BG gear becomes the best thing they can get for a number of their slots, and therein lies the issue with these changes. 

This should NEVER be the case, and if it is.. something is very broken!

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Old 07-11-2012, 12:28 PM   #3
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[email protected] wrote:

However, the same is not true in using PVP gear in PVE with what is on test.  Now, if you're of the tiny margin of raiders kitting out in PoW gear, maybe the BG gear isn't comparable, but for the vast majority of players the BG gear becomes the best thing they can get for a number of their slots, and therein lies the issue with these changes. 

Funny, I'm 'kitting out' in PoW gear and I feel the same way about the gear people are getting from the new raid zones which present next to ZERO challenge being better than HM drunder gear that even with 2 more levels and new prestige abilites and gear far better than what was/is available in there and prior to it still couldn't kill more than maybe 3 mobs 4 at best.

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Old 07-11-2012, 12:29 PM   #4
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kalaria wrote:

This should NEVER be the case, and if it is.. something is very broken!

Yes there is, pretty much every drop that comes from Skyshrine is OP to a level beyond belief.

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Old 07-11-2012, 12:31 PM   #5
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alaplayer wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

However, the same is not true in using PVP gear in PVE with what is on test.  Now, if you're of the tiny margin of raiders kitting out in PoW gear, maybe the BG gear isn't comparable, but for the vast majority of players the BG gear becomes the best thing they can get for a number of their slots, and therein lies the issue with these changes. 

Funny, I'm 'kitting out' in PoW gear and I feel the same way about the gear people are getting from the new raid zones which present next to ZERO challenge being better than HM drunder gear that even with 2 more levels and new prestige abilites and gear far better than what was/is available in there and prior to it still couldn't kill more than maybe 3 mobs 4 at best.

LOL. yes that is a horse of a different color.  

Given the difficulty it drove me nuts that SS EM gear was as good as it is, and how bad drunder HM became compaired to it.  They seem to be atleast working toward something to remedy this with drunder getting upgraded and presumably POW getting pumped / tweaked.  I suspect we'll see the 'good procs' moved to PoW gear, but really this is a discussion for a different thread.

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Old 07-11-2012, 01:36 PM   #6
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This is a valid point.. but a tricky one to address.

The real issue is PvP gear effectiveness in PvE.  If there was no Nagafen (open world PvP), this is/was easily addressed with stat separation.  The perfect solution so PvEers don't rage quit is to provide separate BG gear from PvP gear.  PvP gear would only be available to Nagafen players and worthless in BGs... and BG gear would only work in BGs.  This of course would hurt the BG population pretty bad, as the Nagafen players would be concerned with gearing out for open world PvP first... and tbh, Nagafen is the majority populations in BGs.

Another problem that lies in this solution is PvE servers would always have a valid grip if a Nagafen raid guild was ranking ww pretty well in progression.   (similar to why that PvP Russian server in TSO was ww firsting everything)

For those that do open world PvP (which you have to understand is amazingly fun... superior to any fun you think BGs are with their "3..2..1 Go!" system), what they are implementing is great with the contested choke point they added in SkyShrine.

I do believe Blue adornments have been removed.. so that stat loss needs to be taken into account.  Otherwise, maybe lowering the dmg effectiveness of PvP gear in PvE might be an option.  The PvE survivability needs to remain on the PvP gear for it be a success with open world PvP.

Good luck

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Old 07-11-2012, 01:58 PM   #7
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[email protected] wrote:

LOL. yes that is a horse of a different color.  

Given the difficulty it drove me nuts that SS EM gear was as good as it is, and how bad drunder HM became compaired to it.  They seem to be atleast working toward something to remedy this with drunder getting upgraded and presumably POW getting pumped / tweaked.  I suspect we'll see the 'good procs' moved to PoW gear, but really this is a discussion for a different thread.

There are a few gems that are in HM Drunder, aITEM -1451475074 -1646380167:Rage-filled Wand of Sullon Zek/a I don't think anything in SS even touches this at least nothing I have saw, the problem is what you have to go through to get to the mob that drops it and then that fight. Though now I think we could drop it in 5 mins tops, there is nothing along the way worth having.

I don't know what they are going to do with procs, Im sporting gear that has the 5 procs , 3 are the same the other 2 are similar but diff name and don't stack.

procs should be based on slot, actually they should be based on a RED adorn slot, just fix the method for accessing them.

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Old 07-11-2012, 02:21 PM   #8
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i agree this is a problem.  

  devs need to find a way to make bg gear mid level at best for pve and "best for slot" for pvp.   this can probably only be done by adding some sort of "luck" roll on getting the "powerful" pvp gear.    like you do a pvp quest and you have a chance at the powerful pvp item that trumps any and all raid gear in pvp, or something like that.

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Old 07-11-2012, 02:28 PM   #9
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How exactly does BG itemisation = Raid itemisation when there are no red slots on any of the BG gear and nothing remotely equivalent to war runes available for BG tokens?

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Old 07-11-2012, 02:37 PM   #10
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Not to mention the fact that anyone that wanted to spend the weeks required to get a full set of the best armour from BGs, just to use for PvE, would be absolutely mental.  Especially considering you can just buy raid gear for a couple hundred plat tops per slot anyway.

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Old 07-11-2012, 02:39 PM   #11
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[email protected] wrote:

How exactly does BG itemisation = Raid itemisation when there are no red slots on any of the BG gear and nothing remotely equivalent to war runes available for BG tokens?

I think there's an assumption the Blue slots would remain.  All the PvP gear on test only has white adorment slots.  So there we go, right?

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Old 07-11-2012, 02:46 PM   #12
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[email protected] wrote:

How exactly does BG itemisation = Raid itemisation when there are no red slots on any of the BG gear and nothing remotely equivalent to war runes available for BG tokens?

Look at your chest piece, look at blue mitigation adorns.

Look at MA, Look at Crit.

Keep in mind many 'pvp/pve' stats are now merged, as a result those stats on BG gear work in PVE now.  Examine your character window in live and test and pay particular attention to the 'pvp' section and what has been removed and consoidated with PVE mechanics.

The gear is close enough that the line is nearly  indistinguishable for some slots (greater disparity on others), but in nearly all cases it eclipses heroic gear.

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Old 07-11-2012, 02:49 PM   #13
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

How exactly does BG itemisation = Raid itemisation when there are no red slots on any of the BG gear and nothing remotely equivalent to war runes available for BG tokens?

I think there's an assumption the Blue slots would remain.  All the PvP gear on test only has white adorment slots.  So there we go, right?

When I logged onto test and looked at the merchant, the blue slots were still there.  I've not logged on in the past 48 hours or so, have they actually been removed?

Even still, with the blue runes removed, they still eclipse PVE heroic gear, and they for all intents and purposes eclipse slots that are very hard to get in PVE raiding, like chest pieces.  Many raiders are going to see the BG chest piece as being an upgrade for PVE compaired to what they can kill.

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Old 07-11-2012, 03:25 PM   #14
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I looked around but i cant fine it... where is the BG's armor merchant?
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Old 07-11-2012, 03:27 PM   #15
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Meh, I tried to post a screenshot I have from test, where the items do still have blue adorns so everyone could see the stats, but that appears beyond my capability on this tablet.

Here is someone else's link:

http://i970.photobucket.com/albums/.../EQ2_000008.png

Now something this user didn't do was go look at the jewelery cause much of that is dead copies. I will attempt to post some more poignant screenshots tonight.

But net effect, I have raiders that have logged into test and identified 4-5 slots that are clear upgrades to what we have access to and then when you consider alts...  almost everything on there is an upgrade.  For our casual raiders, closer to 7-8 slots are upgrades compaired to what they could loot so far.

My question is, is this the result SoE is looking for?   I'm sure it will bring a bunch of 'noobs' into BGs again, but overall are we looking to put more preasure to gear out in BG over raiding?

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Old 07-11-2012, 03:51 PM   #16
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[email protected] wrote:

My question is, is this the result SoE is looking for?   I'm sure it will bring a bunch of 'noobs' into BGs again, but overall are we looking to put more preasure to gear out in BG over raiding?

That is a splendid question.  Or questions.

Maybe it's another statflation situation.  Maybe it's "let's give PVPers a chance to get raid-quality gear" situation.  (Do folks ever raid on PVP servers?  I don't know.)  I can appreciate the angst that changes like this would cause those raiders who play for the e.p. stroking ("I have this gear because my guild can do this and YOU CAN'T bwahaha").  Okay, that's exaggerating for effect--I do understand the risk/reward calculus involved with getting raid prizes, and I fully agree that the best items should come from the hardest encounters.

And that introduces the apples-to-oranges comparison of what makes a hard encounter.  PVP/BGs can be very challenging encounters.  With any raid (or any other PVE event), once you understand how to deal with the script and the target's special attacks, the event becomes routine and eventually trivial.  PVP encounters--because you are fighting against other thinking beings--have the potential to be unpredictable and challenging.  Risky, even.  Parallel rewards for the most elite PVP and the most elite PVE make sense to me.

Heck, I may even go back to the BGs once these changes to live.  I kind of miss ScoutQuest.  Har!

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Old 07-11-2012, 04:22 PM   #17
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This is the way I see it after comparing the gear.

The blue stats are 100% equal between PvP Master gear and PvE Skyshrine Raid gear. The only noteable differences between the 2 is the blue slot vs red/yellow and Skyshrine procs have been traded for Toughness/Lethality.

I'm guessing Sony's viewpoint is that a fully Master geared PvP player will be able to stand toe to toe with a fully Skyshrine Raid geared PvE player. It comes down to procs versus toughness/lethality at that point.

The issue at hand is that this PvP master level raid equivalent gear is a guaranteed loot item that you just need to put the time investment of running battlegrounds into. On the flip side, no such system exists for PvE players. You can run that raid 50 times and still not see your jewelry item due to the random loot generator or having sucky dice.

How much will people put up with the randomness of PvE when PvP offers a ladder system that you can visibly see progress on?

This isn't even addressing the fact that Master level PvP gear blows heroic instance gear away for the most part. That's a whole point of contention there. The only heroic gear that even comes close is Challenge Mode and Dozekar faction merchant and it is still below PvP master level.

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Old 07-11-2012, 04:35 PM   #18
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What if it was viewed as just another option to get some ok raid equivalent gear?  Putting egos aside,  BGs and open world would furish with PvP and raids will remain the same.  I mean.. in the end, raid gear will edge out this PVP gear and raiding will continue.  ATM BGs are dead...

I "get the grip".. it's valid, but I don't feel like it's worth quiting over.  A raiders gear will still be supieror in PvE in the end compared to PvP gear.  If the random loot went in your favor.. it's 10x faster then gearing out via PvP... it is.

And say you're on a PvE server with no PvP option but BG.  The people BG'ing for this gear are basically going to continue doing BGs for this gear to PvP better.  I'll even go as far as to say the time they spend in BGs doing this is far more then raiding for this gear.  I raid and gear that's better then PvP gear is basically given out like candy.

I suggested maybe trying to lower the PvP gear's PvE damage, but if you drop the defensive stats for PvE... really, what's the point of it.  All this is being done for basically two reasons:1. Raiders want to PvP in the gear they earned while raiding.  -you see how the arguement can be flipped to complain about using PvE earned gear to better gear earned from PvP'ing.  They can also work on upgrading PvP gear at the same time with what they earned killing scripted NPCs..  win win.2. Skyshrine is a contested PvP choke point.  The open world PvP system at the moment is broke here.  We need PvP gear that can stand up to NPC's while we PvP.

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Old 07-11-2012, 04:42 PM   #19
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[email protected] wrote:

I "get the grip".. it's valid, but I don't feel like it's worth quiting over.  A raiders gear will still be supieror in PvE in the end compared to PvP gear.  If the random loot went in your favor.. it's 10x faster then gearing out via PvP... it is.

No, that isn't really true, for 95%+ of the raiders out there, the master pvp chest is better than what they can get after 4 months of raiding skyshrine.  Much of the jewelery is exactly the same as well.

It is my belief that there should be an innate penalty in using pvp gear in pve and vise versa.  Certainly I agree with changes that don't require so much gear swapping, and I'd even go so far as to say the pvp to pve penalty doesn't need to exist on nagafen, but for everyone else I believe the pvp gear should take a 10% hit when in pve content.

I think the proposed changes are in fact probably great for nagafen; however, I think the proposed changes are not so great for everyone else.  I do not agree with the equal power of this pvp gear on pve servers against pve content.

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Old 07-11-2012, 04:46 PM   #20
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yeah... I agree with what you're saying.  I'm with yah. 

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Old 07-11-2012, 04:49 PM   #21
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[email protected] wrote:

What if it was viewed as just another option to get some ok raid equivalent gear?  Putting egos aside,  BGs and open world would furish with PvP and raids will remain the same.  I mean.. in the end, raid gear will edge out this PVP gear and raiding will continue.  ATM BGs are dead...

I "get the grip".. it's valid, but I don't feel like it's worth quiting over.  A raiders gear will still be supieror in PvE in the end compared to PvP gear.  If the random loot went in your favor.. it's 10x faster then gearing out via PvP... it is.

And say you're on a PvE server with no PvP option but BG.  The people BG'ing for this gear are basically going to continue doing BGs for this gear to PvP better.  I'll even go as far as to say the time they spend in BGs doing this is far more then raiding for this gear.  I raid and gear that's better then PvP gear is basically given out like candy.

I suggested maybe trying to lower the PvP gear's PvE damage, but if you drop the defensive stats for PvE... really, what's the point of it.

I don't see any issue with PvP gear being raid level in stats. To me, this just makes it so that pvp'ers are equal gear-wise to pve'rs when they meet in the Battleground. Neither one of them has to step outside of their chosen playstyle to be able to experience combat against each other in the BG's.  People in PoW gear will have a slight advantage, but meh. 

This works and makes sense to me.

The issue is what it does to not only heroic content gear but also to pve raiders who aren't able to complete their gear sets due to bad luck with drops or dice. If PvP gear is able to maintain it's stats and cross over into the PvE environment, it quickly becomes a viable and legitimate path to raid level gear without ever needing to go on a raid or run an instance.

That could have a huge impact on raid forces and PuGs across the game servers. People choosing to focus on PvP/BG's because they offer tangible, trackable, visual upgrade progress versus PvE environment may cause issues.

A lot of this is going to depend on the rate of tokens earned and the turnaround on being able to reach Master level PvP gear.

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Old 07-11-2012, 04:52 PM   #22
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[email protected]_old wrote:

A lot of this is going to depend on the rate of tokens earned and the turnaround on being able to reach Master level PvP gear.

And if you can continue to get tokens for losing =P

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Old 07-11-2012, 04:56 PM   #23
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[email protected] wrote:

Meh, I tried to post a screenshot I have from test, where the items do still have blue adorns so everyone could see the stats, but that appears beyond my capability on this tablet.

Here is someone else's link:

http://i970.photobucket.com/albums/.../EQ2_000008.png

Now something this user didn't do was go look at the jewelery cause much of that is dead copies. I will attempt to post some more poignant screenshots tonight.

But net effect, I have raiders that have logged into test and identified 4-5 slots that are clear upgrades to what we have access to and then when you consider alts...  almost everything on there is an upgrade.  For our casual raiders, closer to 7-8 slots are upgrades compaired to what they could loot so far.

My question is, is this the result SoE is looking for?   I'm sure it will bring a bunch of 'noobs' into BGs again, but overall are we looking to put more preasure to gear out in BG over raiding?

Hey look thats me! Anyways it takes MONTHS on ends to get just half of your gear and sure its compareable to raid gear but if i remember right people used battlegrounds gear in SF? Admiral's Chain anyone? Plus the stonewill rings.

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Old 07-11-2012, 05:00 PM   #24
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i duno..  i take it back it needs to be good or no one will run bg's.   so the way it is, is fine.

  having said that they need to make blue slots specific for PVP(pvp survivability) stuff and red slots (give two on top of one yellow) and boost them up so they are better for PVE(damage).   that would mean that people with raid gear would do more damage and have access to pve procs maybe?    and people with pvp gear would have better survivability in pvp and maybe some pvp procs?

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Old 07-11-2012, 05:08 PM   #25
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PvP gear should not be THAT good for PvE.  The BP and Shoulders are superior to anything raiders can get before significant HM SS encounters even.Not to mention it all completely eclipses heroic PvE gear.

There must be something (on PvE servers) that negates its use in non-BG settings.

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Old 07-11-2012, 05:10 PM   #26
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I "get the grip".. it's valid, but I don't feel like it's worth quiting over.  A raiders gear will still be supieror in PvE in the end compared to PvP gear.  If the random loot went in your favor.. it's 10x faster then gearing out via PvP... it is.

No, that isn't really true, for 95%+ of the raiders out there, the master pvp chest is better than what they can get after 4 months of raiding skyshrine.  Much of the jewelery is exactly the same as well.

It is my belief that there should be an innate penalty in using pvp gear in pve and vise versa.  Certainly I agree with changes that don't require so much gear swapping, and I'd even go so far as to say the pvp to pve penalty doesn't need to exist on nagafen, but for everyone else I believe the pvp gear should take a 10% hit when in pve content.

I think the proposed changes are in fact probably great for nagafen; however, I think the proposed changes are not so great for everyone else.  I do not agree with the equal power of this pvp gear on pve servers against pve content.

I would just like to say, I am very happy your not the one who makes this decision.

Lets go over some basics about this, if they merge pve and pvp gear stats to allow for healthy pvp on Nagafen then the top tier PvP gear would need to mimic at least EM Skyshirne gear + pvp only stats, which on test it currently does, if the intent was to make it better than PvE gear for PvP.

Next, because it is only equal to EM skyshirne gear, after it hits live there will be, in this order, HM drunder, HM SS, and PoW raid gear that will ALL be better than the top tier PvP gear for PvE.

Lets say if they didn't put this PvP gear purchasable by doing BG's and only on Nagafen, then anyone from Nagafen would have a large advantage in BG's, which would mean to keep anything fair about that, you would have to disable BG's on Nagafen. BTW, I actually favor that idea, and that would allow weaker PvP gear to exist for BG players.

Another solution would be to have specially designed PvP gear with unique effects that only worked in PvP. This type of gear could be made to have primary stats such as Sta, str, etc at the same level as raid gear, but pot and cb at lesser levels, and also keep things like melee stats and others like that similar to raid gear. The nerfed cb and pot would make the gear undesirable for PvE, but the specialty effects would still make the gear better than raid gear in PvP. While this is probably the best solution, it would require a lot of work, and someone with an incredibly deep understanding of PvP combat to keep it balanced.

In the end of the day, there in't that many man hours to be spent fixing PvP, and this is the best solution that exists for what we have. Also if you seriously are having an issue with the fact that someone has a different way to get loot equal to sneeze and it dies EM SSx4 raid mobs, please learn to kill harder stuff, and it won't effect you.

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Old 07-11-2012, 05:13 PM   #27
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kalaria wrote:

PvP gear should not be THAT good for PvE.  The BP and Shoulders are superior to anything raiders can get before significant HM SS encounters even.Not to mention it all completely eclipses heroic PvE gear.

There must be something (on PvE servers) that negates its use in non-BG settings.

I would like to note, that Vallon drops highly superior BP's also there is a X4 contested mob in withered lands that is quite easy that drops a better BP. The second easiest HM SS named drops shoulders, which any raiding guild should be able to kill if they put some time into it.

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Old 07-11-2012, 05:14 PM   #28
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Davngr1 wrote:

i duno..  i take it back it needs to be good or no one will run bg's.  

BG's if balanced well are fun to run with no loot system tied to them at all.  I'm not sure I see the need for raid equivilent gear to come out of them.  I ran 1000's of them and never cared a thing about the gear, and with the new system that my pve gear wont be as big of a penalty I'm sure I'll run more again.

I spent my tokens previously on the specials like the charms to over-ride pvp control effects, etc.  Making things that impact pvp combat the most being the desireable items is what makes sense to me.

Designing a system to grind BG's for PVE gear seems like the wrong direction to go.  If the system truely takes enough time to get a single piece, and the system provides no tokens for failure, I would be far more likely to conceed to it.

If I can log in some random level 30 alt and half-asz/goof off and get tokens for just showing up, then this reward system is too high.

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Old 07-11-2012, 05:15 PM   #29
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[email protected] wrote:

Hey look thats me! Anyways it takes MONTHS on ends to get just half of your gear and sure its compareable to raid gear but if i remember right people used battlegrounds gear in SF? Admiral's Chain anyone? Plus the stonewill rings.

People did use BG gear in PvE until Sony decided to split the stats and procs into PvP equippable/useable only. BG's pretty much instantly died the next day. Some PvE players continued for a while because they liked the challenge, but once the gear path for PvE was gone, it was done.

Keeping the PvP Master gear level where its at is fine for Nagafen and Battlegrounds, but something may need to be done to offset the PvE side.

There are a couple of options.

1. Leave things as they are to see how it plays out and if it causes issues.

2. Nerf the gear down to instance gear level when in PvE content.

3. Add in a token system for the PvE side so that running PvE content will allow people to purchase gear of the same quality of the PvP merchant. You can follow the same rules as the PvP merchant. 3 tiers and you have to have the previous tier to buy the next item. This goes back to the shard system that was put into TSO and Sentinel's Fate and then abandoned with DoV. The only difference is that the PvE system would need to be expanded to include Raid level token merchants instead of stopping at Heroic.

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Old 07-11-2012, 05:18 PM   #30
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Hennyo wrote:

Another solution would be to have specially designed PvP gear with unique effects that only worked in PvP. This type of gear could be made to have primary stats such as Sta, str, etc at the same level as raid gear, but pot and cb at lesser levels, and also keep things like melee stats and others like that similar to raid gear. The nerfed cb and pot would make the gear undesirable for PvE, but the specialty effects would still make the gear better than raid gear in PvP. While this is probably the best solution, it would require a lot of work, and someone with an incredibly deep understanding of PvP combat to keep it balanced.

In the end of the day, there in't that many man hours to be spent fixing PvP, and this is the best solution that exists for what we have. Also if you seriously are having an issue with the fact that someone has a different way to get loot equal to sneeze and it dies EM SSx4 raid mobs, please learn to kill harder stuff, and it won't effect you.

I agree that having the gear more designed towards pvp centric effects is the way it should be.  What you describe in your first paragraph is the system I would expect to see in this game.

As far as your other comments, I don't really care, but I do see how this will affect the mindset of average players, ones that haven't been able to fully gear from EM SS and aren't attempting and have no plans of doing drunder HM in the near future.  I will continue to kill stuff in drunder and not look back for me personally,  my concern is more how this impacts the overall game and the average players perception of reward from either content style.

I'm confident that my personal gear progression will not be impacted by this gear, however I recognize I'm farther ahead of the majority of raiders out there, and its the middle of the pack that I'm concerned about here, cause its those folks I'll be looking to recruit the best of next week, next month or down the road.  I fear these changes will have a significant impact to the overall raiding community.

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