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Old 03-29-2010, 05:38 PM   #1
timetravelling

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Hey folks! 

The changes have been pushed to Test-copy! Prz log on, beat each other up, and give us your feedback! If you have specific parses or such you'd like to send, plz PM me or Reahov directly for contact information

From the Original Post:

Based on the old formulas, extremely high resists (if capped) would give players a 75% chance to avoid a spell AND a 75% reduction in the damage when it landed. To offset these, scaling mults were put in to reduce the outright resist and damage reduction components gained from those stats. When we updated the formulas to be more balanced, those mults were still hidden in the code reducing the now-more-normal resist rates, causing them to be extremely low.

At level 70+, spell avoidance chance was being multipled by 0.6 (reducing your overall chance to avoid by 40%) and spell resists were being multiplied by 0.65 (reducing the damage reduction applied to spell damage by 35%). This has been contributing to the ... ah ... very high combat effectiveness of spell-damage based classes. We have removed all of these mults internally.

Our intention is *not* to make any classes unbeatable or make others unable to kill opponents. Deathdealers such as Wizards and Warlocks will still do impressive damage, and letting one attack you unabated will still be very bad for your health. However, spell resistances and high STA should be contributing to survival as expected instead of at a greatly reduced effectiveness.

Feedback and such is welcome, and we look forward to y'alls help with parses and real-combat situational effectiveness changes once we have these changes on Test-Copy!

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Old 03-29-2010, 06:25 PM   #2
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Awesome, will do some testing post-haste.

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Old 03-30-2010, 12:03 AM   #3
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thank you finally!!! I will add all of my toons to test. Paly/Sk/monk/dirge and test with them all!

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Old 03-30-2010, 06:22 PM   #4
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I still don't know why you don't make these changes LIVE? for nagafen anyway and not BG yet. 

As it stands, the OPEN-pvp combat is really bad, so why wait?

This would also get people out in the OPEN-pvp instead of on a TEST-server and it wouldn't affect the PvE or BG's.

... simple....

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Old 03-30-2010, 11:58 PM   #5
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These changes are NOT live because the new resist system has its flaws as well. The unintented consequence of this is that some already over powered classes such as the Shadowknight are even more over powered on test than they are on live. The one weakness the Shadowknight had was magic and being one shotted through divine aura. It is no longer possible to kill an SK that doesn't want to die.

Yeah it is good they fixed resists but they really need to look at certain ballance issues before they can push it live.

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Old 03-31-2010, 12:51 AM   #6
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Ran around about 7pm pacific standard for awhile but found no one to fight tonight.  Will be on tomorrow night (3-31-10) and thereafter at around 6 or 7pm pacific pending traffic home from work.  Would like to especially parse fights with a Q sk, pally, and sorcerers.  Other fights welcome too.

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Old 03-31-2010, 03:04 AM   #7
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Novusod wrote:

These changes are NOT live because the new resist system has its flaws as well. The unintented consequence of this is that some already over powered classes such as the Shadowknight are even more over powered on test than they are on live. The one weakness the Shadowknight had was magic and being one shotted through divine aura. It is no longer possible to kill an SK that doesn't want to die.

Yeah it is good they fixed resists but they really need to look at certain ballance issues before they can push it live.

negative.

There's a red adornment that reads "adds a small stoneskin" to deathmarch... which btw is a group buff.  It effectively makes an SK's group invulnerable the moment they press deathmarch.. if they kill someone *which they will definitely do because its so ridiculously easymode* they'll get another 10 seconds of it!  WEE!  Its so stupid.Right now with the way people die to 1 shots and spell resists are working,  if you're an SK that has access to this gear you basically just win.  Its utterly and completely broken beyond all reason.  There was no reason to even imagine why someone would give that to an SK for any reason, not even a PVE reason much less for PVP.

My fear is that there's already healers even with spell resists borked up that wont die.  Soon nobody will die.  Heals need to be toned down, spell damage needs to be toned down, whatever is making sorcerers get hit for a whopping total of 6 damage when I crit them needs to be fixed.  I could literally write a thesis paper on what is actually wrong with pvp.

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Old 03-31-2010, 03:15 AM   #8
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[email protected] wrote:

My fear is that there's already healers even with spell resists borked up that wont die.  Soon nobody will die.  Heals need to be toned down, spell damage needs to be toned down, whatever is making sorcerers get hit for a whopping total of 6 damage when I crit them needs to be fixed.  I could literally write a thesis paper on what is actually wrong with pvp.

I hate when people like you try to nerf heals because you can't kill a healer 1 on 1. Guess what, Healers are supposed to keep 5 other people alive in addition to themselves, if they can be solo'ed how would that be possible? There are still many ways to kill a healer as is so why do you need heals toned down if you can't figure them out or execute ways to stop them.

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Old 03-31-2010, 03:42 AM   #9
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Novusod wrote:

These changes are NOT live because the new resist system has its flaws as well. The unintented consequence of this is that some already over powered classes such as the Shadowknight are even more over powered on test than they are on live. The one weakness the Shadowknight had was magic and being one shotted through divine aura. It is no longer possible to kill an SK that doesn't want to die.

Yeah it is good they fixed resists but they really need to look at certain ballance issues before they can push it live.

not really, as a sk, warlocks wizards in similar gear destroyed me long before SF resists became bugged.  this was back in tso

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Old 03-31-2010, 11:38 AM   #10
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

My fear is that there's already healers even with spell resists borked up that wont die.  Soon nobody will die.  Heals need to be toned down, spell damage needs to be toned down, whatever is making sorcerers get hit for a whopping total of 6 damage when I crit them needs to be fixed.  I could literally write a thesis paper on what is actually wrong with pvp.

I hate when people like you try to nerf heals because you can't kill a healer 1 on 1. Guess what, Healers are supposed to keep 5 other people alive in addition to themselves, if they can be solo'ed how would that be possible? There are still many ways to kill a healer as is so why do you need heals toned down if you can't figure them out or execute ways to stop them.

it's not 1v1 that I'm describing.  I've seen healers with an X2 of players beating on them.  its not so obvious right now because warlocks and wizards hit so hard if one's around they can usually get through it all.  Don't be jumping to conclusions, 1v1 I dont give a rats.. most healers if you want to leave them alone you're free to do so.  I'm talking about templars that make a mockery of several players DPS on them.     Some wardens are the same way.  Think about it and be honest.  I see your Onyx tag, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

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Old 03-31-2010, 07:09 PM   #11
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Honestly along with the resist changes.

They need to prevent % based heals from critting.They also need to limit the stone skin proc on the shadowknight deathmarch to 1 skin per cast.

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Old 03-31-2010, 07:31 PM   #12
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

My fear is that there's already healers even with spell resists borked up that wont die.  Soon nobody will die.  Heals need to be toned down, spell damage needs to be toned down, whatever is making sorcerers get hit for a whopping total of 6 damage when I crit them needs to be fixed.  I could literally write a thesis paper on what is actually wrong with pvp.

I hate when people like you try to nerf heals because you can't kill a healer 1 on 1. Guess what, Healers are supposed to keep 5 other people alive in addition to themselves, if they can be solo'ed how would that be possible? There are still many ways to kill a healer as is so why do you need heals toned down if you can't figure them out or execute ways to stop them.

it's not 1v1 that I'm describing.  I've seen healers with an X2 of players beating on them.  its not so obvious right now because warlocks and wizards hit so hard if one's around they can usually get through it all.  Don't be jumping to conclusions, 1v1 I dont give a rats.. most healers if you want to leave them alone you're free to do so.  I'm talking about templars that make a mockery of several players DPS on them.     Some wardens are the same way.  Think about it and be honest.  I see your Onyx tag, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

There are classes that can kill healers on their own, paired with others that know what they are doing, they won't live through an x2, It's just majority of people aren't smart enough or good enough players to execute killing a healer that has a clue.

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Old 03-31-2010, 07:54 PM   #13
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We're looking into the deathmarch red adornment. It's proc is likely to change from a full stoneskin to a damage reduction effect

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Old 03-31-2010, 08:03 PM   #14
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timetravelling wrote:

We're looking into the deathmarch red adornment. It's proc is likely to change from a full stoneskin to a damage reduction effect

While you're looking at that adornment,you should look at crusader's in general. Tone them down. Alot.

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Old 03-31-2010, 08:48 PM   #15
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[email protected] wrote:

timetravelling wrote:

We're looking into the deathmarch red adornment. It's proc is likely to change from a full stoneskin to a damage reduction effect

While you're looking at that adornment,you should look at crusader's in general. Tone them down. Alot.

The overall spell resist fix and if they nerfed % based effects from critting would fix certain imbalances. It honestly doesnt make sense for % based effects to crit since they already scale. Allowing a 4% heal proc to crit for 8% with 2.0 crit bonus is a it excessive.  And with no cap on crit bonus % based effects will likely be excessive if they are allowed to continue down this path. 12% heal procs with 3.0 crit bonus, 20% heal proc with 5.0 crit bonus, etc etc.

This is only a mechanic that will get worse as people obtain more and more gear.

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Old 03-31-2010, 09:30 PM   #16
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Nerfing spell damage should be fun for healers and tanks.

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Old 04-01-2010, 11:44 AM   #17
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omg thank you for looking at this.. it was really bad..    i refuse to play my dirge in bg's ever.  You simply can not go into melee range 1v1 and survive.  at least i couldn't .. i know i know learn to play.

Did you know that people were leveling up warlocks and wizzys specifically so they could farm bg's?

As for sk's being overpowered.. i don't know what your talking about.. i still get my but handed too me quite often and i don't have terrible gear. 

On my sk all i seem to run into is casters.. /shrug they own face as soon as i'm in range.  It seems like what they like doing is root/charm/stun/mez/stifle me so i can't get into melee range, not in melee range = not proccing all my nifty ward procs as much=sad panda.    yes i realize you can break out of some effects with aura pots and clickies.

My point is your painting sk's as unstoppable killing machines and i'm not seeing it.. And yes the deatchmarch red adorn needs toned down(It's not great for raiding anyway).. damage reduction sounds good as it really is not a huge duration.

If your going to keep this going could we see some fraps or parses?

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Old 04-01-2010, 12:17 PM   #18
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Every SK isn't uber or even good.

When they have decent gear and know how to play, their potential goes through the roof.

I have played in BG and seen some SK really OP and others totally terrible.

The key word here is "potential"

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Old 04-01-2010, 01:05 PM   #19
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Siphar wrote:

Every SK isn't uber or even good.

When they have decent gear and know how to play, their potential goes through the roof.

I have played in BG and seen some SK really OP and others totally terrible.

The key word here is "potential"

so, other classes don't have potential?  all i'm asking for is some data. 

 i can remember seeing a zerker holding the flag for ten minutes in his home team base while the other team tried zerging him for 10 minutes..  they hook arrowed him out of the base he hit adrenaline and just ran through them blasting him back into the base and resumed mowing them down .. a few times...

ive seen palys run arond mowing everything down in sight.. i seen guards run right through an x2 grab the flag and run right back out again..  ive seen brawlers jump from the upper ledge in ganak and land past the fountain.(in the time it took me to cast my fae racial runspeed buff)

ive seen wardens/templars hold off a x2 by themselves that was trying to capture a tower..  ive seen wizzies and warlocks, congy's 1 shot entire groups.   i've seen troubs just randomly appear(milliseconds apart mind you) in random spots along the top of the keep in ganaks.

Ive seen guards warp to every member of the group all over the map and wack each person 1 time.  I've seen warlocks chase groups around solo by themselves.. (Supposed to be the easiest class to kill)..and then win...against a whole group...

sad part is .... i wish i made this up.

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Old 04-01-2010, 01:56 PM   #20
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bluedego wrote:

Siphar wrote:

Every SK isn't uber or even good.

When they have decent gear and know how to play, their potential goes through the roof.

I have played in BG and seen some SK really OP and others totally terrible.

The key word here is "potential"

so, other classes don't have potential?  all i'm asking for is some data. 

 i can remember seeing a zerker holding the flag for ten minutes in his home team base while the other team tried zerging him for 10 minutes..  they hook arrowed him out of the base he hit adrenaline and just ran through them blasting him back into the base and resumed mowing them down .. a few times...

ive seen palys run arond mowing everything down in sight.. i seen guards run right through an x2 grab the flag and run right back out again..  ive seen brawlers jump from the upper ledge in ganak and land past the fountain.(in the time it took me to cast my fae racial runspeed buff)

ive seen wardens/templars hold off a x2 by themselves that was trying to capture a tower..  ive seen wizzies and warlocks, congy's 1 shot entire groups.   i've seen troubs just randomly appear(milliseconds apart mind you) in random spots along the top of the keep in ganaks.

Ive seen guards warp to every member of the group all over the map and wack each person 1 time.  I've seen warlocks chase groups around solo by themselves.. (Supposed to be the easiest class to kill)..and then win...against a whole group...

sad part is .... i wish i made this up.

No, He as politely saying, SK is the class that you put your 8 year old nephew on because even if he doesn't read anything he will have a hard time dying and still kill stuff.

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Old 04-01-2010, 02:18 PM   #21
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Actualy, clerics are this xpacs crusaders when it comes to being OP in pvp.

Sure, just like with crusaders, some suck. But, those that have a clue can destroy any class that can not one shot them.

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Old 04-01-2010, 02:20 PM   #22
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Lodor wrote:

Actualy, clerics are this xpacs crusaders when it comes to being OP in pvp.

Sure, just like with crusaders, some suck. But, those that have a clue can destroy any class that can not one shot them.

It's only DG which I have said 100x needs nerfed, Even with it, If 1-2 of the right classes know what they are doing they can kill a cleric.

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Old 04-01-2010, 02:27 PM   #23
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bluedego wrote:

Siphar wrote:

Every SK isn't uber or even good.

When they have decent gear and know how to play, their potential goes through the roof.

I have played in BG and seen some SK really OP and others totally terrible.

The key word here is "potential"

so, other classes don't have potential?  all i'm asking for is some data. 

 i can remember seeing a zerker holding the flag for ten minutes in his home team base while the other team tried zerging him for 10 minutes..  they hook arrowed him out of the base he hit adrenaline and just ran through them blasting him back into the base and resumed mowing them down .. a few times...

ive seen palys run arond mowing everything down in sight.. i seen guards run right through an x2 grab the flag and run right back out again..  ive seen brawlers jump from the upper ledge in ganak and land past the fountain.(in the time it took me to cast my fae racial runspeed buff)

ive seen wardens/templars hold off a x2 by themselves that was trying to capture a tower..  ive seen wizzies and warlocks, congy's 1 shot entire groups.   i've seen troubs just randomly appear(milliseconds apart mind you) in random spots along the top of the keep in ganaks.

Ive seen guards warp to every member of the group all over the map and wack each person 1 time.  I've seen warlocks chase groups around solo by themselves.. (Supposed to be the easiest class to kill)..and then win...against a whole group...

sad part is .... i wish i made this up.

im a guard and a pretty dam good one at that. been doing it for quite a while now. i dont see how that is possiable. we posses no ability in game that i know of that allows for this. hacks? ghosting? dont base ur illistrations on exploiters to prove a point as a standard if so.

im glad they are fixing resists. as a guard with 70% crit mit and 9000 nox/elem, i was still getting rifted for 20k. i should be able to take 3 good hits / 4 decent hits fom a sorcerer. id be happy with that at 19k hps + fixed resists.

Also this will reduce the spell based DPS on spell useing hybred classes like Crusaders and Furies.  

Also Timetravelling, is there any way to disconjoin the base crit stat (like 1.5 for warrior) and the crit bonus stat so that crit mit is actually useful as a base amount? like if some1 hase 55 crit mit vs me, i cant crit them? as it stands right now, the crit bonus is added to the base in the calculation to determin a crit vs crit mit. so if i have +50 crit bonus (1.5base +.5bonus = 2.0) they would need more then 100critmit to aviod the crit. thats over the top as +50 crit bonus is EZ to aquire this itemization cycle. Make the Crit Mit check only vs Base crit bonus plz. this would promote a mixture of both crit mit and toughness to be use in BG. as of now, high crit mit (avaliable to only higher end raiders normally) > toughness as u aviod crits all togeather.

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Old 04-01-2010, 02:53 PM   #24
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Olihin PvP Dev Joined: Oct 15, 2007 Messages: 214 Online

Greetings, I understand that many are waiting for news about changes to Open PVP and there is quite a list of things coming. The first of which is the resist changes that Timetravelling posted about and many of you were requesting us to fix. The fix is in and on TEST-copy waiting for you to test and give us feedback. So far, no one has submitted any feedback on it.

Although most of the changes currently made involve Battleground in their title, the changes to the overall PVP system are always with our servers in mind. We will continue to make balance changes to classes, but with the goal to not hinder a class ability to function. So "nerf SK" is not really a helpful post, but "can you look at this adornment that procs stoneskin and may be a little much" is and has been corrected.

The new features and items for PVP are already being created or discussed. To avoid the cut and paste quotes from posts were I mention something and then we have to change it, I will let you know when they are "mostly" ready.

Olihin

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just posted .. PLZ SUBMIT /FEEDBACK. what are u test peeps doing? how do we expect anything to get done with no1 actually /feedbacking??

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Old 04-01-2010, 03:03 PM   #25
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[email protected] wrote:

Olihin PvP Dev Joined: Oct 15, 2007 Messages: 214 Online

Greetings, I understand that many are waiting for news about changes to Open PVP and there is quite a list of things coming. The first of which is the resist changes that Timetravelling posted about and many of you were requesting us to fix. The fix is in and on TEST-copy waiting for you to test and give us feedback. So far, no one has submitted any feedback on it.

Although most of the changes currently made involve Battleground in their title, the changes to the overall PVP system are always with our servers in mind. We will continue to make balance changes to classes, but with the goal to not hinder a class ability to function. So "nerf SK" is not really a helpful post, but "can you look at this adornment that procs stoneskin and may be a little much" is and has been corrected.

The new features and items for PVP are already being created or discussed. To avoid the cut and paste quotes from posts were I mention something and then we have to change it, I will let you know when they are "mostly" ready.

Olihin

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just posted .. PLZ SUBMIT /FEEDBACK. what are u test peeps doing? how do we expect anything to get done with no1 actually /feedbacking??

Since it is on the test copy server they expect players on non test servers try to coordinate tests of the changes amoung the community.

Since, if you just log over there randomly and try to test the changes the odds are you will not find anyone to fight, let alone someone that knows how to test it as a QA person would/should.

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Old 04-01-2010, 03:50 PM   #26
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Lodor wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Olihin PvP Dev Joined: Oct 15, 2007 Messages: 214 Online

Greetings, I understand that many are waiting for news about changes to Open PVP and there is quite a list of things coming. The first of which is the resist changes that Timetravelling posted about and many of you were requesting us to fix. The fix is in and on TEST-copy waiting for you to test and give us feedback. So far, no one has submitted any feedback on it.

Although most of the changes currently made involve Battleground in their title, the changes to the overall PVP system are always with our servers in mind. We will continue to make balance changes to classes, but with the goal to not hinder a class ability to function. So "nerf SK" is not really a helpful post, but "can you look at this adornment that procs stoneskin and may be a little much" is and has been corrected.

The new features and items for PVP are already being created or discussed. To avoid the cut and paste quotes from posts were I mention something and then we have to change it, I will let you know when they are "mostly" ready.

Olihin

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

just posted .. PLZ SUBMIT /FEEDBACK. what are u test peeps doing? how do we expect anything to get done with no1 actually /feedbacking??

Since it is on the test copy server they expect players on non test servers try to coordinate tests of the changes amoung the community.

Since, if you just log over there randomly and try to test the changes the odds are you will not find anyone to fight, let alone someone that knows how to test it as a QA person would/should.

im gonna be the frst to say this.. they are now so scared to bring anything to PVP servers without testing it because of all the nerd rage posts about broken PVP this and untested PVP that, that they are gonna wait till it fully tested and bug proof before doing anything.

The problem is that open pvp with massive amounts of "live testers" are the only way your gonna find bugs... but because of everyones hate posts about untested PVP changes.. that wont happen...

Going live on PVP server with a change is the only real way to test PVP changes....

I dont see the big deal with putting something live and allowing the bugs to be pulled out due to massive live testing...  but it seems they have moved away from this to never moving a PVP update live because they are waiting for the 12 people from PVP server who actually goes on test to try it out... the problem with that like you mentioned, no actual pvp to test out, [Removed for Content] is there to test on an empty server?

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Old 04-01-2010, 04:07 PM   #27
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[email protected] wrote:

Also Timetravelling, is there any way to disconjoin the base crit stat (like 1.5 for warrior) and the crit bonus stat so that crit mit is actually useful as a base amount? like if some1 hase 55 crit mit vs me, i cant crit them? as it stands right now, the crit bonus is added to the base in the calculation to determin a crit vs crit mit. so if i have +50 crit bonus (1.5base +.5bonus = 2.0) they would need more then 100critmit to aviod the crit. thats over the top as +50 crit bonus is EZ to aquire this itemization cycle. Make the Crit Mit check only vs Base crit bonus plz. this would promote a mixture of both crit mit and toughness to be use in BG. as of now, high crit mit (avaliable to only higher end raiders normally) > toughness as u aviod crits all togeather.

This is an issue we're looking into. Since crit bonus is such an effective and plentiful stat on SF gear, PvP gear in the future is likely going to see some way to increase your crit mit (in pvp) beyond the 60% granted by a full set of Toughness.

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Old 04-01-2010, 04:26 PM   #28
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Lodor wrote:

Since it is on the test copy server they expect players on non test servers try to coordinate tests of the changes amoung the community.

Since, if you just log over there randomly and try to test the changes the odds are you will not find anyone to fight, let alone someone that knows how to test it as a QA person would/should.

I just logged into Test and found 6 FP and 10 Q logged in, and none had Tested the resists as yet out of the few who responded to my questions.

I am waiting for SOE to process my "/testcopy add" on my SF characters, so I cannot get any valid Testing until that happens.

I guess for the Tests, all I would really need is a willing enemy caster to wiggle-finger to explode my toons a bunch of times, so the resists can be parsed out in a variety of levels, gear and AA configs.

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Old 04-01-2010, 08:27 PM   #29
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[email protected] wrote:

timetravelling wrote:

We're looking into the deathmarch red adornment. It's proc is likely to change from a full stoneskin to a damage reduction effect

While you're looking at that adornment,you should look at crusader's in general. Tone them down. Alot.

I would like to qualify this as most people use blanket statements when their experience really is in 80+.

None of these problems exist in the low to mid levels. Paladin's aren't OP there, neither are wizards.

I have never one-shot a properly geared person with a wizard since I don't have the luxury of an 80+ well AA'd / geared wiz, nor can my paladin innately evac like a scout, mana drain/tap like an enchanter, etc. My paladin neither can stand up to a few people on him for a few minutes like a similar tier sk can.

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Old 04-01-2010, 08:51 PM   #30
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Brigh wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

timetravelling wrote:

We're looking into the deathmarch red adornment. It's proc is likely to change from a full stoneskin to a damage reduction effect

While you're looking at that adornment,you should look at crusader's in general. Tone them down. Alot.

I would like to qualify this as most people use blanket statements when their experience really is in 80+.

None of these problems exist in the low to mid levels. Paladin's aren't OP there, neither are wizards.

I have never one-shot a properly geared person with a wizard since I don't have the luxury of an 80+ well AA'd / geared wiz, nor can my paladin innately evac like a scout, mana drain/tap like an enchanter, etc. My paladin neither can stand up to a few people on him for a few minutes like a similar tier sk can.

I'd like to take the opportunity to say this.

No one cares about anything below level 80. And the few that do care are such a minority that their opinion doesn't even matter. If you don't PVP at level 90,then you have no right to speak about the state of PVP. This game wasn't made for level locking..it was made for people to get to max level,and experience all the content.

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