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Old 05-12-2010, 04:02 PM   #1
Bruener

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What changes could be done to increase the "fun factor" of Guards while staying close to SOE's vision, i.e. class description, of Guards?

Utility: So where I think the biggest room for growth for the Guard class is in this category.  Based on the description the Guard is supposed to be providing leadership and protection to their allies.  There need to be more group based and maybe even raid-based abilities so that when a Guard is present the overall survivability of their allies goes up.  Some ideas off the top of my head would be a castable group stoneskin.  Something a Guard can use on their group to stoneskin one hit.  Great for inc AEs.  It could be on a 2 or 3 min recast and be a stoneskin that is only used when target group friend takes damage more than 15% of their health.  An ability like this alone would be of great use and really help out a raid quite a bit.  Also it would reinforce the Guard as the primary MT since he would be able to really help protect the core group of a raid.

Agro: While I am of the believe that Guard agro isn't nearly as bad as some people like to make it out as I do think that they could use a little more and that another AE type tool would go a long ways.  I have mentioned in other threads the idea of changing Recapture to an ability that affects all classes not just other fighters.  The idea would be to keep the current ability while adding into the ability that Recapture would lower the hate position of all the Guards group members by a specific number of hate positions.  To make it extremely affective in heroic gameplay it could be as high as 5 hate positions.  There could also be a large AE taunt tied to the ability of 5k or something that would help for initial agro.  This would be a huge benefit in heroic content and also maintain great use in raid content.  The other idea for hate would be what I have noticed some Guards that have been around a lot complain about specifically.  The idea that in defensive stance they should generate just as much agro as they do in offensive stance.  Perhaps an easy fix for this would be an AA ability taht while in defensive stance adds a taunt value to each combat art cast.  Not sure what kind of number it would need to be but thinking if it was like a 1k taunt on every CA and since it is an ability it would be affected by Crits, Crit bonus, and Potency you would be talking about a huge amount of threat on each CA.  Basically this would allow them to be threat machines while in defensive.

Edit to add some other ideas that people listed:

1. For more raid desireability they should get an ability called Commanding Orders or something similar.  Basically for every person in the Guardians group/raid it increases the potency of the group/raid by .5%.  That would be a total of 12% for an entire raid.

2. For aggro they should get an ability thats sort of a mixture of Sigil of Heroism that the pallies have, and Fanaticism that Inquisitors get.  Could make it an aggro siphon from the group (maybe raid also) that has a power drain over time.  Could also give it a benefit where if a group member gets hit by a mob, there is a 25% chance the mob is forced to target the Guardian for 2 seconds.  Make the recurring power cost steep enough where the Guardian couldn't just run around with this up non-stop so that it wouldn't be OP in PVP.

3. It's not really a Guard specific change but Mitigation needs to be rethought.  To be quite honest every stat that can be easily capped needs to be rethought.  Whats the point of having 2 temp mit buffs when I'm over cap on mit for every fight it's likely to matter?

4.

05/13/2010 10:20:40     Subject: Re:What Guards need....?

It's not really a Guard specific change but Mitigation needs to be rethought.  To be quite honest every stat that can be easily capped needs to be rethought.  Whats the point of having 2 temp mit buffs when I'm over cap on mit for every fight it's likely to matter?

Our raid-wide buff is completely useless, it is both useless because no-one ever avoids a hit thanks to defense and because no-one needs defense.  Make it a limited deathsave-other with attached target force/positional increase on death/dmg

5.

1) Group Stoneskin. Awsome idea! Guards already have the ability in Guard Sphere. Give Guards a AA that improves the %'s on it. Instead of a 25% chance to SS, make it +10% per rank, 5 ranks. that would give a 75% chance to proc SS every 3 mins or so for urself and Group. Put it in the Guardian Tree and replace "Got Your Back".

2) Increase the guardians Sheild Bash into a kicking CA. Make Useing a Sheild for Guards hella good. I really liked the TSO Raid 4 peice bonus of +25%(?) to block for 15s. Increase the damage, maby unaviodable?, and add Block % to it. Acts as a short term buff + more single target threat.

3) Increase the Mythical proc. Jesus the Guard Mythical effect is HORRIABLE. and the buffs we got from it was dam near useless. Increse the Proc or the Duration of the anti-effect on it and make it a perminent 10% damage reduction. Add a passive hate component that ALL OTHER fighters have on theirs.

4) Rework Hold the Line. make it proc on Attack instead of on hit.

5) Turn the Stamina Buff into a passive Ward in PvP combat.

6) Make the Guard be able to Open AE Force De-target 3sec 10 Targets in PvP. unique ability that would be well used.

7) Make Plant unresistable except for Epics.

6. What if Guard was given a AA, etc that would make it so all our CA's, taunts, etc would hit up to 3 targets if wielding a 2hander?

7. I was thinking some on Raid Buff... why not add mitigation to raid members?

8.  Move reversal hate proc to our defensive stance.

Add weapon bonus to STA line while wearing a shield / 2h (old reversal AA).

Move the small damage proc from reversal to Offensive stance.

9. Change Hold the Line by adding another trigger to it.  On a successful avoidance check proc the hate across the encounter.  So as avoidance goes up, AE (encounter) agro goes up also.

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Old 05-12-2010, 06:39 PM   #2
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I honestly don't know anymore.

I really only play my Guard when I duo-box stupid easy instances like Library and Conserv with my girlfriend and her duo-boxed toons so most of my views on how the tanks stack up and who needs help is from the perspective on my raid main which is an Assassin.

My thoughts on Guardian needing help or not needing help change each day. If I isolate myself and only raid with my assassin or only do the duo-boxed group stuff then everything seems fine.  My Guard is the meatshield and I control the aggro.

But if I go out and group with other fighters I see just how frustrating and boring running instances with the Guard are by comparison.  If I imagine any other fighter in place of my Guard in our boxed groups.....the things we can do and the speed we can do it in tripples to include much more than those two ease instances.

I think at a minimum the Guardian class and game itself needs changes so that what defines a Guardian is actually of value to a instance group.  I cant speak about all the other fighters but I know I have found myself often saying .....hmm we really could have used a SK on that fight.......or man I bet a Bruiser would have really owned on that fight.  There is not a single heroic instance or encounter out there where I found myself saying....man really glad we had a Guard.

Personally I think SOE has made heroic content too trivial and easy and quick...thus removing the advantage of playing a rock like Guardian.   Mobs in heroic instances just dont hit hard enough or fast enough for the Guardian advantage to matter.

So maybe the fix is not with the classes but with the content itself.

Ok sorry for the tangent....not really what the thread was about.

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Old 05-13-2010, 12:06 PM   #3
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Oh I came up with another idea to really help Guards move along.  Here it is, its brilliant really....

How about instead of just QQ'ing in every thread about how jealous you are of SKs you actually come up with some ideas of your own to help your class out.

I know, its simple but brilliant.  Maybe some will catch on someday....

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Old 05-13-2010, 12:16 PM   #4
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TBH the mechanics dev knows... its been said in beta through post and PM's, its not like reposting everything thats been said will magically change it.

Mechanics dev has posted on the topic how many times now? .... thats right.

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Old 05-13-2010, 12:57 PM   #5
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[email protected] wrote:

TBH the mechanics dev knows... its been said in beta through post and PM's, its not like reposting everything thats been said will magically change it.

Mechanics dev has posted on the topic how many times now? .... thats right.

Well Digg how hard would it be to post the ideas here again?

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Old 05-13-2010, 01:00 PM   #6
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Couple of ideas:

For more raid desireability they should get an ability called Commanding Orders or something similar.  Basically for every person in the Guardians group/raid it increases the potency of the group/raid by .5%.  That would be a total of 12% for an entire raid.

For aggro they should get an ability thats sort of a mixture of Sigil of Heroism that the pallies have, and Fanaticism that Inquisitors get.  Could make it an aggro siphon from the group (maybe raid also) that has a power drain over time.  Could also give it a benefit where if a group member gets hit by a mob, there is a 25% chance the mob is forced to target the Guardian for 2 seconds.  Make the recurring power cost steep enough where the Guardian couldn't just run around with this up non-stop so that it wouldn't be OP in PVP.

Might be sort of out there, but just a couple of thoughts.

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Old 05-13-2010, 01:06 PM   #7
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Bruener wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

TBH the mechanics dev knows... its been said in beta through post and PM's, its not like reposting everything thats been said will magically change it.

Mechanics dev has posted on the topic how many times now? .... thats right.

Well Digg how hard would it be to post the ideas here again?

Are you serious? If the guy has been told since beta about problems and its what 4+ months into xpac and not even a "we are working on it" I for one am not going to waste more time with it. Instead I will just play my zerker and have fun playing this game. Everyone forgets that ... we pay money to enjoy ourselves.... not to do their work for them.

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Old 05-13-2010, 02:20 PM   #8
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It's not really a Guard specific change but Mitigation needs to be rethought.  To be quite honest every stat that can be easily capped needs to be rethought.  Whats the point of having 2 temp mit buffs when I'm over cap on mit for every fight it's likely to matter?

Our raid-wide buff is completely useless, it is both useless because no-one ever avoids a hit thanks to defense and because no-one needs defense.  Make it a limited deathsave-other with attached target force/positional increase on death/dmg.  Kinda like Sentry Watch but perma-buff and only capable of proccing once every 20-30 seconds or so.

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Old 05-13-2010, 04:01 PM   #9
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Bruener im actually impressed u took the time to post with some honest merit to try improve Guards. Yes, it does suck that the Guards are in a corner as u put it, which is so true, piegon holed into a single mode of advantagious game play.

I remember the T5 t6 t7 SK. No love for a long time... thats y i rerolled as a Zerk in T7, tired of SOE giving improvment after improvment to the other tanks. Well Guardians are now at that point and has been incoming for about 2 years.

HOWEVER. the Guardian still should have 1 major advantage. They should still be the Most survivable MT for Raids. That should not loose that niche. Slight improvements to the guard class should reflect that fact. Guards r behind somewhat, but not as much as Sks were in T6.

Weaknesses: AE Aggro, DPS, Multiple damage sources, low raid/group utility. i made this post explaining my thoughts as well - http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=477565

I dont mind SKs and Zerks blowing crazy DPS/Threat on 4/5 mob encounters. NP at all. they should IMO. But the Guard should keep up on 1 or 2 mobs, and Manage Aggro/survival BETTER then them. DPS is a very strong basic game Element, and should count for alot. i can not Aggro Manage something to death, nor Survive it to death. Quite bluntly, DPS Kills Mobs.

I like the Group Adjustment ideas. A Guard should protect MTG or his Heroic group at all times.

1) Group Stoneskin. Awsome idea! Guards already have the ability in Guard Sphere. Give Guards a AA that improves the %'s on it. Instead of a 25% chance to SS, make it +10% per rank, 5 ranks. that would give a 75% chance to proc SS every 3 mins or so for urself and Group. Put it in the Guardian Tree and replace "Got Your Back".

2) Increase the guardians Sheild Bash into a kicking CA. Make Useing a Sheild for Guards hella good. I really liked the TSO Raid 4 peice bonus of +25%(?) to block for 15s. Increase the damage, maby unaviodable?, and add Block % to it. Acts as a short term buff + more single target threat.

3) Increase the Mythical proc. Jesus the Guard Mythical effect is HORRIABLE. and the buffs we got from it was dam near useless. Increse the Proc or the Duration of the anti-effect on it and make it a perminent 10% damage reduction. Add a passive hate component that ALL OTHER fighters have on theirs.

4) Rework Hold the Line. make it proc on Attack instead of on hit.

5) Turn the Stamina Buff into a passive Ward in PvP combat.

6) Make the Guard be able to Open AE Force De-target 3sec 10 Targets in PvP. unique ability that would be well used.

7) Make Plant unresistable except for Epics.

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Old 05-13-2010, 04:03 PM   #10
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Just brainstorming here purely from what I think woudl be fun......

I like 2handers.......I think everyone agrees that the current state of 2handers being a viable weapon choice for either tanking or DPS is pretty sad.

What if Guard was given a AA, etc that would make it so all our CA's, taunts, etc would hit up to 3 targets if wielding a 2hander?

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Old 05-13-2010, 09:00 PM   #11
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Not very knowledgeable about guard ablities but here goes...

I was thinking some on Raid Buff... why not add mitigation to raid members? Perhaps a small increase to percentage chance block/parry/dodge/defense or any combination there of? Since chance block is uncontested it will probably be the better choice i guess...

Out of group moderate? Dunno how many concentration slots you guys utilze, but perhaps have it take concentration slots to put on more than one person say 2 or 3 max and make it in group or Raid only? Hmm maybe just 2 hehe *shrug*

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Old 05-14-2010, 12:05 PM   #12
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Move reversal hate proc to our defensive stance.

Add weapon bonus to STA line while wearing a shield / 2h (old reversal AA).

Move the small damage proc from reversal to Offensive stance.

Would make you want to take in defensive stance (due to hate proc) and use 1h / Shield due to the weapon bonus. Not saying the weapon bonus needs to be = or > crusaders but says crusaders had a 15% weapon bonus 1h/shield / 2h give warriors 10% weapon bonus 1h/shield / 2h.

This would also give us a reason to use 2h and tank with 1h/shield. By far the hate proc from reversal should be attached to our defensive stance to give more clarity on why we should be using it. And the proc from reversal (dmg) moved to offensive stance with the same requirements for it to proc. (that dmg does not make up a huge portion of dps).

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Old 05-14-2010, 12:44 PM   #13
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bruener making a thread about guardian in a vain attempt to divert people attention from the fact crusader and SK in particular need a huge nerf back to ROK Status.
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Old 05-14-2010, 01:11 PM   #14
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Change Hold the Line by adding another trigger to it.  On a successful avoidance check proc the hate across the encounter.  So as avoidance goes up, AE (encounter) agro goes up also.

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Old 05-14-2010, 02:08 PM   #15
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Honestly, a couple things need changed.  I see some really nice suggestions.  One suggestion I would like is a change to our O-Stance.  I don't know about Crusaders, but I know the Zerker O-Stance blow's the Guardian one out of the water.  I mean a damage proc associated with it for Zerkers and Guardians get what? More STR....bleh.  Sure we get melee skill buffs, but come on...we need something besides added STR.  That is all we get besides lower DEF.

As far as agro generation, the sad part of it is, taunts are still broke.  DPS>Taunts hands down.  I do like Digg's suggestion about the stances and moving the damage portion of Reversal to O-Stance and the threat part to D-Stance.  I also like the idea of giving Warriors the weapon bonus for being 1h/shield or for 2h.  But either way, HtL is garbage, when we do get hit, we still have to worry about the proc getting resisted, same with the reversal hate proc.

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Old 05-14-2010, 03:05 PM   #16
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Breuner wants to keep SK's right where they are. I do honestly believe he wouldn't scream if Guardians are brought up some also.

That being said, this isn't as easy as that. Right now Crusaders don't have to make the choice the rest of the fighter community has to. I believe the current state of the Crusaders kind of breaks the game from what it's suppose to be. Other tanks that group with her tell my wifes Assassin all the time they are shocked when she uses her deagro abilities. People don't have to use them when they group with a Crusader. Why did SoE give them these abilities if they don't need them?

Crusaders maximize survivibility and DPS at the same time. It's not what the game is designed for and shouldn't be what the rest of the fighters have to compete with when looking for a pick up group to waste some time in. As a nicely geared, non-raid, Guardian I have actually had people drop group when they see a Guardian tanking. I do a pretty darn good job of holding agro and most people enjoy groups with me. That being said, I always know that the zone would have gone two times faster if a crusader had been tanking without any chance in the need for healing or buffs at all and that is a fact.

Just not right. Buff Guardians, nerf crusaders. I don't care, just give us all a 'well rounded fun' class to play.

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Old 05-14-2010, 09:00 PM   #17
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There are some pretty good suggestions coming in... please keep thread on track as there are other threads that can debate class or archtype diffferences or annoying nuances... as I am sure other folks know by now... Keep the spot light on the topic at hand, thank you

Btw did they change the guards death prevent ability so that they dont die after that abilities termination?

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Old 05-15-2010, 10:24 AM   #18
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Gaurdians have no Death Prevent ability.

WARRIORS have a lv 35 ability called Unyeilding Will. UW does a 1 time ~80% heal and kills u in 36seconds. Both Guards and Zerks have AAs to prevent the Explodeing Heart.

However Zerks Also have Visions of Madness which is a class specific save.

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Old 05-17-2010, 12:06 AM   #19
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Ahh I see thank you for the xplanation... if they have aa to prevent it would seem better if they just changed UW to remove the xploding heart, and change that aa that prevents it into something better...

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Old 05-17-2010, 05:05 PM   #20
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Guardians can put 5 AA's into Unyielding Will and it takes away the exploding heart portion of the ability. It's 46% heal (I believe), lasts like 2.5 minutes and has a ~10 minute recast. It is NOT always up like bloodletter.

Also, you can't put AA's into that ability until level 81.

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Old 05-24-2010, 03:01 PM   #21
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Edited the original post to include many of the ideas people have posted so far.  Please keep them coming in while really trying to stay within the feel of a Guard.....example giving Guards heals would be lame because it is not in the vision of Guards at all.  Instead concentrate on what playing a Guard is all about and come up with some abilities or adjustments that would make them much more enjoyable to play.

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Old 05-24-2010, 03:47 PM   #22
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Bruener wrote:

Oh I came up with another idea to really help Guards move along.  Here it is, its brilliant really....

How about instead of just QQ'ing in every thread about how jealous you are of SKs you actually come up with some ideas of your own to help your class out.

I know, its simple but brilliant.  Maybe some will catch on someday....

You can take any of my suggestions posted in Beta and still look at them now.

There is no point in putting forward suggestions when no one from SoE is either listening, or motivated to do anything about it.

My advice to guardians is a consistent message.  If you are not in the MT slot of your current guild, betray or re-roll and you'll be a happier player.

Cause regardless of any suggestion put forth on these forums, no changes will be made to the class for atleast 10 months, and I suspect the next beta will go about the same as the last one as far as the class goes.

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Old 05-24-2010, 04:09 PM   #23
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Guardian fix:

Guards should out dps parse all AE tanks on single targets they should also have mountains more single target hate.

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Old 05-24-2010, 06:21 PM   #24
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 I see a change in improved moderate to being made raid wide with a 2% hate transfer from every member in the raid if not fighter. lol wishful thinking SMILEY.. We'd dehate the whole raid and seive hate from the whole raid.. That'd atleast keep us as mt for a little bit. This would solve alot of the issues and keep our dps down. with our humungus survivability we have over all the other tanks. SMILEY

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Old 05-24-2010, 06:22 PM   #25
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o and offer us useful raid utility.

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Old 05-24-2010, 06:45 PM   #26
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Make the group-wide HP buff a raid-wide HP buff and add another 10k HP to it or so. Increase the duration of reinforcement to 2 hours, and allow it to proc whenever anyone hits a mob, or any engaged mob attacks, or a hate position changes anywhere in the encounter(s).

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Old 05-24-2010, 08:19 PM   #27
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Lol since most are complaining about hate.. i figured mine would be an easier fix with out putting us in the shoes of an offensive tank

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Old 05-24-2010, 08:25 PM   #28
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Brildean wrote:

Lol since most are complaining about hate.. i figured mine would be an easier fix with out putting us in the shoes of an offensive tank

Tanks should do the same relative dps.  The difference should be some better at ST some at AE's much like wizzys and warlocks.

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Old 05-25-2010, 05:48 AM   #29
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I think the hate should be relatively the same for tanks, with some minor differences in AE vs. ST mobs, but not enough to make instances grossly unpleasant on either. SK's should be a bit better at dps than guards at the expense of survivability, pallies should be the same with less survivability traded for some healing, berserkers, compared to a guardian, should do better aoe dps but not lock a single target encounter as tight as a guard, bruisers and monks should be like pally SK but with avoid instead of mit, mit and avoid being redone a little to make them both pertinent. Guards should be able to hard lock single target encounters with a little bleed to DPS classes on AE encounters.

The whole argument of there being more AE encounters vs ST is worthless when most tanks are blasting through all encounters, ae or st, at the same time. The guard being an exception to "most tanks" doing this. It has become the expectation that these zones should work this way.

Right now the SK is far exceeding guard in DPS, healing, threat with equal survivability in most encounters with equal healers.

In ROK our mythical made one of our AA lines amazing, changes to the game have rendered that worthless. We literally have an AA we can't purchase now still on the boards because we haven't been looked at properly since the aa change that also changed the epic. To cap it off, our level 80 new ability was an ability that actually unlocks agro from us in favor of another tank.

I'm with Atan on this, with whom I so rarely agree, but if you're still a guardian that didn't get grandfathered a main spot in guild raids, roll something else.

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Old 05-26-2010, 12:45 PM   #30
Brildean

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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 262
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isn't it unusual that other classes can give us temp buffs that proc more threat than our primary taunts. Lol thats the wierdest thing ever. They need to increase provoke and taunting blows by 120% and make them unresistable atleat the threat portion. or give us an aa ability that burns hps and converts it into ae threat for 30 seconds. reusable every 1 minute. 500hp/s for 1500 ae threat a second. and it would give the healers somethin to heal lol.

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