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Old 11-02-2012, 01:35 PM   #31
slippery

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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

But this is the best part about Miasma.

Considering the majority of the time you are only fighting one target, and the Wizards version of Miasma is single target and hits 4 times as hard, Miasma should have a higher proc chance. It really doesn't proc that often, even against group training dummies

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Old 11-02-2012, 01:55 PM   #32
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slippery wrote:

It's the kind of ability that costs people dps instead of actually benefiting them, because in reality they aren't casting things they should because they are waiting around for other things. Not casting the spells that go instant because you know you're going to get rid of the cast time, not casting the nuke because you're waiting for Fiery Blast and Time warp, not casting the nuke because you are waiting on the instant cast spells. ... What would I do differently? When you hit 60 triggers you also instantly refresh those spells that go instant cast. Why? It stops the waiting. You hit 60 triggers, you cast the spells, you cast the nuke. 

Meant to comment on the above too - I fully agree with Arabel on this point.

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Old 11-02-2012, 02:23 PM   #33
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Xelgad wrote:

Awesome feedback.  The patch today is adding spell text for when you hit 60 increments, so hopefully that will help. Does the Dragowulf SpellTimer Window work? I can see what the UI people think of adding a window like that to the default UI, but usually we like to leave the more advanced features to modders.

It shows that the buff is present, and the remaining time (up to the 1 min), and refreshes accurately, but doesn't show the increment counter. So to see how many increments we're up to, we basically have to "chase" the icon with the counter as it jumps around the maintained window. This may be just a ui modding issue though.

Spell text at 60 increments is definitely a help (thanks!), but it would be nice to have a better way to know how far we are from 60 as we build up too.

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Old 11-02-2012, 02:48 PM   #34
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The number is displayed on the icon on default UI in maintained. I also agree miasma needs a boost now having done all the fights in the instanced x4s. Slippery's idea for replacing the dehate presitge points is actually really good in my opinion, seeing as of now nobody will likely take it (I put the final 1 point in the doublecast buff on the top row).
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Old 11-02-2012, 03:10 PM   #35
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daray wrote:

slippery wrote:

It's the kind of ability that costs people dps instead of actually benefiting them, because in reality they aren't casting things they should because they are waiting around for other things. Not casting the spells that go instant because you know you're going to get rid of the cast time, not casting the nuke because you're waiting for Fiery Blast and Time warp, not casting the nuke because you are waiting on the instant cast spells. ... What would I do differently? When you hit 60 triggers you also instantly refresh those spells that go instant cast. Why? It stops the waiting. You hit 60 triggers, you cast the spells, you cast the nuke. 

Meant to comment on the above too - I fully agree with Arabel on this point.

another +1 to this. The entire situation he's describing here is also the present issue with timewarp and focused casting. the reseting of these two just made it that much worse with it too. the juggling system of those two temps has gotten way out of control. Is there anyway the cap on SDA can be lifted so that this is no longer an issue. It's not like there is a huge amount of SDA in game and mages will get instantly OP. It just stops the issues of trying to juggle the two abilities timewise, and wasting them bc ur constantly waiting for the next rotation.

The trigger rate still needs to be bumped up too. 33% at 3 ranks with mainly single targets around is just to slow. Yes its an ae line but you're gonna have to build up those charges for the spawning adds on encounters, which renders the effects pretty useless at the current proc rate. Not to mention using the abilities clears the charges.

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Old 11-02-2012, 03:13 PM   #36
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Chronus1 wrote:

The number is displayed on the icon on default UI in maintained.

Yes, I was referring to the question about the Dragonwulf timers window. It's still hard to see the counter jumping around  in the regular maintained window if you have the max number of spells, procs, and buffs active.

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Old 11-02-2012, 04:28 PM   #37
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[email protected]_old wrote:

daray wrote:

slippery wrote:

It's the kind of ability that costs people dps instead of actually benefiting them, because in reality they aren't casting things they should because they are waiting around for other things. Not casting the spells that go instant because you know you're going to get rid of the cast time, not casting the nuke because you're waiting for Fiery Blast and Time warp, not casting the nuke because you are waiting on the instant cast spells. ... What would I do differently? When you hit 60 triggers you also instantly refresh those spells that go instant cast. Why? It stops the waiting. You hit 60 triggers, you cast the spells, you cast the nuke. 

Meant to comment on the above too - I fully agree with Arabel on this point.

another +1 to this. The entire situation he's describing here is also the present issue with timewarp and focused casting. the reseting of these two just made it that much worse with it too. the juggling system of those two temps has gotten way out of control. Is there anyway the cap on SDA can be lifted so that this is no longer an issue. It's not like there is a huge amount of SDA in game and mages will get instantly OP. It just stops the issues of trying to juggle the two abilities timewise, and wasting them bc ur constantly waiting for the next rotation.

The trigger rate still needs to be bumped up too. 33% at 3 ranks with mainly single targets around is just to slow. Yes its an ae line but you're gonna have to build up those charges for the spawning adds on encounters, which renders the effects pretty useless at the current proc rate. Not to mention using the abilities clears the charges.

Yea, it is great and all that is in an ae line, but the only ae's are adds that die in under 10 seconds. That doesn't really leave you time to build up triggers and cast the ae, hence the waiting for Warlocks that I was talking about above.

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Old 11-02-2012, 07:31 PM   #38
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Noxious Spellslinger now lowers the base casting times of Distortion and Apocalypse to 2 seconds each.

 

Anyway Distortion can go to 1.5? That would be halving both spells. The one on apoc is nice, but just shaving what is essentially 0.5 seconds cast off distortion still doesn't really make it what it should be. it makes it barely better than dark pyre.

 

Not sure how the rest of the changes look by description alone, but could be good. interested in seeing the duration increase on beneficial spells.

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Old 11-03-2012, 01:43 PM   #39
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I feel like both sorcerer's prestige can be summed up as, left side is nice, right side kinda bad but the left is nowhere near worth giving up the first point on the right. As such both will think strongly about double conversions.

Change to left duration is 18% with 3 ranks for those who were wondering.

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Old 11-03-2012, 04:00 PM   #40
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i like the changes made to the left side of the tree but i haven't seen anyone address the problem w/ balancing the left and right trees....

the current problem is almost no matter what you do to the left tree noone will use it because every sorc will lose to much dmg by dropping the first 3 options in the right hand line. there is just to much potentail loss to overcome with out a MAJOR rework of left hand abilities.

it seems to me the better option is to remove the link between the current live prestiege tree and the new ones. this would cover fixing alot of the inequalities and allow for people to spec with greater freedom. and save you guys ALOT of headaches across all classes

i also agree that the SMA limit at 100% is silly and makes juggling buffs just annoying. i also feel this detracts from the desire to try to improve the stat since the hard capping it makes gaining the extremely minor gains from overcapping castspeed laughable when compaired to the overcap gains for scout auto i mean ~.1 SMA for 10 cast speed (and this drops off fast), that means if i wanted to gain 10 speed SMA i'd need 10000 cast speed? this conversion rate means that NOONE trys to get more than the basic soft cap

what do we gain from overcapping the reuse that i can't even reforge out of since i have better options from spell weapon stats(which do bad dps even with high stats)? could we get some of this to start dropping base reuse or cast speed? something to make this stat valueable overcap would go along way

i personally don't see why devs are trying to split these 2 lines into "single target" and "ae" versions since this really takes away from the basic point of each class.  i don't think any warlock would be upset not being as good on single target dps as a wizard as long as there is enough large ae content to shine on, and i think the wizards feel the same for the reverse.

as a side note i have also been waiting for the apoc cast time at 60 increments to be fixed

+1 for the ideas about changing negative void off of a toggling ability

lastly the endline "fix" for sorc's that added the ae proc...

first off the dmg is bad

secondly this seems to have been implemented to even out what classes give to the group and who benifits. if this is the case the problem is still there mainly that some classes proc these far more than others ~60-120% more due to pets proc'ing the ae's and the basic differance in cast times.

thirdly these abilities hit friendly targets and non-PvP engaged players.

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Old 11-04-2012, 12:10 AM   #41
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i agree that its a bit silly to have each line be straight up single target and ae. Thats what the class differences are supposed to be. Prestige points should be something that enhances a classes purpose not specs them for their class or their counterparts. Its also bad that there is a large emphasis on making prestige trees very similar between subclasses. "equal" gain isn't equal. giving a wizard and a warlock, or a ranger and assassin etc, near idental lines doesn't net even gains as the classes are fundamentally different. It just creates more class inbalance. Please tailor the prestige trees into being more class specific enhancements and not cookie cutter you each get an aoe or a single target nuke, have fun.

edit* That said, at least with the last revisions the sorc trees have gotten a little be more class specific but yeah, still needs working on both ends.

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Old 11-05-2012, 04:36 PM   #42
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The main thing is that if the content isn't going to have significant aoe/linked aoe encounters, we would take the left line for such content. We we would be at a significant disadvantage, however. Are there plans to address some of the balancing suggestions we've made on here?

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Old 11-05-2012, 08:02 PM   #43
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Warlock

Miasma should no longer hit players.

Toxic Assault has had its damage increased by 15%.

Caustic Detonation has had its damage increased by 15%.

Noxious Attunement has had its damage reduced by 55%.

Diseased Mind now increments smoother, removing 20% casting speed every 12 increments. Rank 1 allows the first 12, Rank 2 allows 24 and 36, and Rank 3 allow 48 and 60. It now works properly with both spells.

Occult Bolt now inflicts additional damage with each increment.

Perfect Influx is now a 33%/66%/100% increase to Noxious Influx.

Empowered Bolt now increases the warlocks potency by 11% per rank if they cast Occult Bolt following Aura of the Void.

 

Diseased mind change is really good as far as the progressive change goes, apoc still caps at .75 cast time tho :/

 

Empowered Bolt is a horrible idea. please dont try to dictate our rotations.

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Old 11-06-2012, 07:41 PM   #44
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Prestige Mastery The middle bubble at the bottom of the Prestige tree now costs two points. If you really think there is any hope of me taking Miasma for 2 points you are dreaming. With the horrible damage and even worse proc rate I'd rather have anything else for 2 points. Make my myth click not need to be toggled for ae/single target. I'll take that for 2 points. I get it, you guys are out of time, the expansion is Tuesday. I feel for you. That isn't our fault, not enough time was left for the expansion to really get tested and changes worked on. Don't punish us because of that, our stuff still needs work. And lets face it, we all know that once it goes live odds of it changing in the next year, if ever, are incredibly bad.
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:12 PM   #45
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also getting apoc to actually get below .75 cast would be cool. its hard to test stuff when its not working.

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Old 11-06-2012, 08:15 PM   #46
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slippery wrote:

Prestige Mastery The middle bubble at the bottom of the Prestige tree now costs two points. If you really think there is any hope of me taking Miasma for 2 points you are dreaming. With the horrible damage and even worse proc rate I'd rather have anything else for 2 points. Make my myth click not need to be toggled for ae/single target. I'll take that for 2 points. I get it, you guys are out of time, the expansion is Tuesday. I feel for you. That isn't our fault, not enough time was left for the expansion to really get tested and changes worked on. Don't punish us because of that, our stuff still needs work. And lets face it, we all know that once it goes live odds of it changing in the next year, if ever, are incredibly bad.

This +1.  Misama is extremely low damage, even for a group proc, and now you want 2 points spent in it? RIIIGGGHHTT.... Then you nerf the other "endline" that was actually useful by over 50% so if an AE encounter ever does come up we can't capitalize on that fact. 

Unless there is going to be significant AE content then the AE line just isnt' very good.  It's great for heavy linked encounters like the Bouncers, but how much of that are we going to see?

The single target-line has potential, but even if we spec that way we are still going to be doing less dps than Wiz / Sins/ BLs.

Right now our options seem to be 1. Take the left-side to minimize our loses on single target encounters but gain very little for linked / AE encounters. or B.  Gain almost nothing for single-target encounters, which increases the gap between us and other single-focuses classes and gain a decent amount of AE potential, which apparently is sparse/ non-

existent in the upcoming content.

You have plenty of testers here who not only have taken the time to test the content but who know their classes EXTREMELY well.  They have offered suggestion after suggestion in order to help you balance abilities and to keep us  happy.  Please listen.  Your player base is continuing to diminish, so please keep those of us who are still around happy.

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Old 11-06-2012, 08:15 PM   #47
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[email protected]_old wrote:

also getting apoc to actually get below .75 cast would be cool. its hard to test stuff when its not working.

This is currently working correctly for me.

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Old 11-06-2012, 08:30 PM   #48
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Enotirab wrote:

[email protected]_old wrote:

also getting apoc to actually get below .75 cast would be cool. its hard to test stuff when its not working.

This is currently working correctly for me.

Sweet, they must of ninja fixed it in todays update then. I know it definitly wasn't working yesterday. soooo, onto the list of other suggestions and issues that have been so far ignored.

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Old 11-07-2012, 06:55 AM   #49
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blah blah blah, wizards are so op, blah blah blah... seriously now tell us why every top raid guild has one or two locks and just 1 if any wiz ? Locks already have it easier than wiz atm, fusion OP ? lol fusion is a 60° frontal cone, short range, let's change your aoe so they are the same ok ? About fusion resetting, it's defo not resetting 24% of the time, but lower already.

You win parses anytime on ranged fights or the lock is just bad. 

Maybe 1 wizard out of 10 is parsing as he should/could be. There are many more parsing locks.

Both classes don't compare when it's about getting the best of it, so having it easy is not enough... you want even more edge ? lol leave wizards alone.

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Old 11-07-2012, 02:02 PM   #50
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le Rêveur wrote:

blah blah blah, wizards are so op, blah blah blah... seriously now tell us why every top raid guild has one or two locks and just 1 if any wiz ? Locks already have it easier than wiz atm, fusion OP ? lol fusion is a 60° frontal cone, short range, let's change your aoe so they are the same ok ? About fusion resetting, it's defo not resetting 24% of the time, but lower already.

You win parses anytime on ranged fights or the lock is just bad. 

Maybe 1 wizard out of 10 is parsing as he should/could be. There are many more parsing locks.

Both classes don't compare when it's about getting the best of it, so having it easy is not enough... you want even more edge ? lol leave wizards alone.

No one here is asking for anything to be done to wizards.  We instead want something done to locks to keep us in balance.  I play and have raided on both classes so I can tell you with a great deal of certainty that wizards are just as capable of parsing as locks.  We still need to get in close to parse well and ALL of our true AEs require us to be in close, unlike E'Ci. 

Both Wizards and Warlocks have their difficults and areas of weakness and all any of us want is to be balanced and competitive.  If you are having trouble competing with your warlocks then perhaps you need to take a look at some other factors like group setup, encounter type and skill level.  Assuming locks have it easy just makes you look ignorant.

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Old 11-07-2012, 02:42 PM   #51
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Both classes have largely the same issues with the new prestige additions (and to a certain extent, the existing ones too), because, well, they basically gave us the same thing (particularly the new right side stuff). I have outlined the wizard-specific issues in the other thread, but what is equally applicable to both classes is what Arabel outlined earlier - namely the negative effect on the flow of combat with the way that the right side is implemented atm - it just doesn't make logical sense.

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Old 11-07-2012, 03:27 PM   #52
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Konc3pt wrote:

I'm not trying to go off topic, but if you're having trouble knowing if you're in range or not to use fusion / triple thunderclap etc, hotbar Brock's Thermal Shocker. Its range is 10m and lights up when you're in range. And you can use Catalogue Creature for judging 15m, iirc. 

Back on topic now. Frozen Burst really needs to be changed. It honestly should be Ball of Fire with no health restrictions, and balanced with ways that Daray suggested. 

The middle endline as it stands is hardly worth the 2 points. I'd personally, as well as others, would like to see fusion, blast of devastation, and firestorm changed into targeted AE's with this endline (like E'ci). There's really no reason for having sorcs play with a scout mentality just to compete. 

Fire Chain's damage is pretty meh. It should do more, although it is a rather boring mechanic. 

This times 10. Except Cataclysm, Rift, and BoD. And Distortion (or Absolution) instead of Ball of Fire.

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Old 11-07-2012, 05:01 PM   #53
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Konc3pt wrote:

I'm not trying to go off topic, but if you're having trouble knowing if you're in range or not to use fusion / triple thunderclap etc, hotbar Brock's Thermal Shocker. Its range is 10m and lights up when you're in range. And you can use Catalogue Creature for judging 15m, iirc. 

Back on topic now. Frozen Burst really needs to be changed. It honestly should be Ball of Fire with no health restrictions, and balanced with ways that Daray suggested. 

The middle endline as it stands is hardly worth the 2 points. I'd personally, as well as others, would like to see fusion, blast of devastation, and firestorm changed into targeted AE's with this endline (like E'ci). There's really no reason for having sorcs play with a scout mentality just to compete. 

Fire Chain's damage is pretty meh. It should do more, although it is a rather boring mechanic. 

This times 10. Except Cataclysm, Rift, and BoD. And Distortion (or Absolution) instead of Ball of Fire.

I dont know if i m really a fan of this concept unless it offers the spells as alternate options. Reason being i'd still like the option to precast the rifts etc, and cast cataclysms and BoD's without having to have targets of a mob, or worry about if the one im targeting dies, i have to retarget and cast. Those options are better suited for greens not blues already. I also am not a fan at all of giving that option to wizards. It's more class fitting for warlocks, and im against making them anymore alike than they already are.

Would love to see them make the cone on Fusion the same as BoD tho. Given the 3 targets that'd remove a lot of its issues w/o changing it to much, and do this not in the middle line, but just straight up change the spell.

Would also like them to adjust Focused Casting and Manaburn in the manner i mentioned on the wizard form earlier as a straight change.

Middles for warlock have been discussed extensively, and im a big fan of removing the toggle on the mythical, and making it applied straight up as an 2 point option. For the other middle giving an alternative to acid storm, that works like apocalypse damage wise, but in the fashion of E'ci blue spell cast wise. This also being worth 2 points.

I'm sure wizards have a plethora of ideas for theirs, but the changes i mentioned for them are more things that i believe should just be done, not prestige point required.

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Old 11-07-2012, 05:29 PM   #54
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I just have the feeling they're "done" with warlock changes from now to the expansion, and that we can pretty much forget about any more submissions breaking through... :-/

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Old 11-07-2012, 05:36 PM   #55
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Mogrim wrote:

I just have the feeling they're "done" with warlock changes from now to the expansion, and that we can pretty much forget about any more submissions breaking through... :-/

Probably. But im a cubs fan, im used to hoping but assuming defeat.

Also i forgot, adding 2 ticks so we aren't ut dependant would also make anice middle option.

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Old 11-07-2012, 05:42 PM   #56
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No it wouldn't. You'd still be UT dependent, you'd just have two more ticks.

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Old 11-07-2012, 05:45 PM   #57
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I'd like the myth click fix. But I'd prefer for that to just be fixed, not an AA option. But I'd take it either way. Otherwise, how about the 2-point option for Wizards and Warlocks allowing for spell triples?

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Old 11-07-2012, 05:48 PM   #58
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Buf[email protected] Bayle wrote:

No it wouldn't. You'd still be UT dependent, you'd just have two more ticks.

not if they changed ut to sda like tc, which is what i'd love to see. dps of a warlock without ut and dps of a wizard without tc is a joke of a difference. our classes are balanced with the thought that a warlock will have ut...thats pretty bs.

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Old 11-07-2012, 05:49 PM   #59
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Mogrim wrote:

I'd like the myth click fix. But I'd prefer for that to just be fixed, not an AA option. But I'd take it either way. Otherwise, how about the 2-point option for Wizards and Warlocks allowing for spell triples?

why not just lift the stupid cap. really, how often will it happen. small chances for wizards during tw, and when tw/fc overlap for warlocks, we dont get shafted. its as stupid as manaburn with all the power drains, just adjust it and be done with it. its not gonna be a huge alteration but it will stop screwing us.

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Old 11-07-2012, 07:04 PM   #60
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If everything is balanced as intended, classes with two DPS lines should always find that choosing one line yields a greater output. - Xelgad.

It's not balanced as intended then because I will certainly be taking double conversions as a warlock.

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