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Old 05-20-2007, 10:57 AM   #1
Firam

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ok, so the other thread where i brought this up got locked because people don't know what "on topic" or "no personal attacks" really means... and i won't rehash all of that stuff here, but you can (and i recommend to) reference it for some background on how i really feel about the fame system and the lengths i have to go to to support my stance on it at the moment... parts of it are good reading at least my question here is this:  if SoE implemented the following commands, would you be in favor or against? /stripfame: takes you back to 0 fame/infamy/notoriety /lockfame: you cannot gain fame, however fame can still be gained off you.  can ONLY be used when at 0 fame (i.e. after a /stripfame or prior to hitting level 10).  once your fame is /locked at 0, you have a seven day wait until you can unlock it again, similar to changing surnames, so people don't screw around with it without thinking about it first. this would be the ENTIRE set of commands required to fix so much of the nastiness and subpar PvP experience that this game has developed into.  so many of us yearn for the abiity to go out and solo/duo/group hunt without supporting the immature and (gonna be honest here) pathetic fame wh0ring that goes on.  people don't relentlessly chase you across 3 zones because you "might be a token" for them... they WILL do that though if you're a juicy General/Master (or whatever) fame hit for their precious fame meter. how much better would this be if you could take a guild group of /famelocked players, solid PvPers, out into the wild and go hunt for real?  that means: without 75% of the groups you meet running from you or evaccing to protect their fame.  good 6v6 PvP battles that lasted 3-5 minutes.  awesome 3v3 or 4v4 (or 3v5, etc) battles.  fun 1v1 matchups that would never have happened before if the titles were there to protect. as it stands right now i'd rather go play a FPS, because "PvP" in EQ2 is not about who's the best at playing their character, it's about who's the best at running away.  i spent 7 years between EQ1 and EQ2 on the PVE side of the house... it eventually wore thin... and now I'm coming up on just under a year on Nagafen, and it was great at first, but when I eventually saw the true nature of the PvP here, it turned me off. i don't want to be turned off. i like this game... i really do... ...but I won't play it just to satisfy some antisocial jackarse's need to blanket their real life lack of self-confidence and/or self-esteem with an overinflated PvP title in a game.  i've just lost way, way too many fights to this to make it worth continuing... ...and by "lost" i mean they never happened in the first place. =| thoughts?
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Old 05-20-2007, 11:09 AM   #2
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so basically..you want to be untitled and not be able to gain fame....but still lose fame.....am i missing something here or are you a noob?
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Old 05-20-2007, 11:11 AM   #3
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I am sure you will have people in your thread flaming for fear of title loss. They just need to remove titles all together, they are ruining the game. And the only defense the people hugging/hopping can come up with is that everyone must be jealous becuase they cant possibly get a title. I think its more like we dont care we just want pvp.

They just need to take all the title huggers and put them on their own little server where they can all run and hide from each other and stare at their pretty little title all day long, while the rest of us play the game.

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Old 05-20-2007, 11:29 AM   #4
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[email protected] wrote:
so basically..you want to be untitled and not be able to gain fame....but still lose fame.....am i missing something here or are you a noob?
you didn't really think my proposal through, did you? lets try it as a thought experiment, i'll walk you through the steps: -SoE implements the two commands as i have presented them -i /strip and /lock my fame.  many other players follow suit.  some people (maybe even a majority, at first) will choose to keep their titles. -now, I am untitled. -at T7 (or anything above T3 really), who else is untitled? bots, and everyone else who /locked their fame. -do i care if bots get fame for killing me?  not really.  i don't seek out bots on purpose, they aren't good PvP.  in case you missed it, I'm seeking quality PvP in this game. -do i care if the other /locked players kill me?  no.  they don't get fame.  they aren't hunting me for that, obviously. i'm most definitely not a noob, and I'd ask you to please at least try to imagine this situation in action before you reply to a thread where I'm seeking honest, well-thought out opinions to improve this game.
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Old 05-20-2007, 11:42 AM   #5
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CresentBlade wrote:

I am sure you will have people in your thread flaming for fear of title loss. They just need to remove titles all together, they are ruining the game. And the only defense the people hugging/hopping can come up with is that everyone must be jealous becuase they cant possibly get a title. I think its more like we dont care we just want pvp.

They just need to take all the title huggers and put them on their own little server where they can all run and hide from each other and stare at their pretty little title all day long, while the rest of us play the game.

i'd be overjoyed if they removed titles entirely.  however, that's been proposed before, and many times before, not to put too fine a point on it.. and SoE is afraid of losing customers.  which is why I offer this as the solution.  let people who choose to play outside the fame-game do so without affecting those who still wish to participate. this is so simple, yet so elegant.  how many people would switch to a PvP server, come back to PvP after quitting, or be prevented from quitting over the coming months/years, if they just didn't have to deal with the miserable effects that the title system has on the overall EQ2 PvP dynamic?  i'd bet my next paycheck that SoE would see a net gain of customers in the long term, and probably a substantial one at that. implement this and i bet within 3 months even the whiniest fame-brat would finally give in and lock their fame once they saw how it improved the game. then, once everyone is untitled and accepting of that playstyle, VIOLA!, SoE can non-intrusively remove this entire broken mechanic from the game and be done with it (and all the countless forum threads and customer dissatisfaction relating to it) forever! MLK once said: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. " you can paraphrase that with the relevant EQ2 terms and i think it fits beautifully here.
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Old 05-20-2007, 11:52 AM   #6
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im like...not for or against your ideas...

i just wonder why?

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Old 05-20-2007, 11:54 AM   #7
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The idea sounds good, the only problem is that you are taking away the incentive for some people to pvp.  Lets fact it, there are a large number of active pvpers that only do it for titles.  With this proposal you run the risk of creating a gap between high titles and no titles and it could get nasty if any of the no titles decide they want to turn fame back on and don't really have anyone to gain it from once they pass slayer. IMO, the better route to go, would be just to set it so that once a title is earned you cannot lose it.  Base titles on max kills, and add new ones once so many people get to the max title or something.  People have no reason to run away from a fight, because the only thing they have to lose is a kill streak, or the coin they accidentally brought with them.  Any pvp reward system that penalizes you severely for dying does not promote pvp, it only gives incentive for people to run away.  
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Old 05-20-2007, 02:24 PM   #8
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Interresting system and a refreshing take on a problem widely talked about on these forums.
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Old 05-20-2007, 02:29 PM   #9
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I'd do this in a heartbeat. I don't get how you can't understand the reasoning really. Why shouldn't you 1v1 me if you have nothing to lose? It allows those who want to the ability to ignore titles entirely. It doesn't hurt anyone, but lets those of us who prefer even fights over gankfests enjoy what we like, without titles. I'd go for it!
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Old 05-20-2007, 09:54 PM   #10
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Please forgive my alt account for this reply but i have been around here since day 1 SMILEY and understand how this PvP stuff works..

I also know Ohnoez etc about getting overseer (ex-venekor player, i'm ex-T7 venekor myself) title blah blah and wanting some recognition for his accomplishments. Great, grats/golf-clap.. However, having no title would not make you any less of a ganker/skilled killer would it?

People know who the good players are by reputation, not by their stupid title.

So why do you and others give other people who seemjust to want to improve pvp quality a hard time? and telling them to L2P?

(I'm directing this at Ohnoez, i have seen you play and although you are good at getting fame, you are a ganker, you do hang in groups, you do sit at WW cloud stations on the cliff snipering people with other duo rangers etc, you play the system to get a high title in all/any way you can.. i also know for a fact you are an expert runner, maybe you are in the olympics as well? Your title is just an extention and affirmation of your running skillz, ability to play the system.. which by the way .. you are by no means humble about...)

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Old 05-20-2007, 10:17 PM   #11
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Titles were a good idea, in theory.  An in game reward for being good.  It just wasn't implimented very well.  the only think that really needs to be changed is to make it so that if you engage in a fight, and then run, you lose fame/infamy/noteriety.
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Old 05-20-2007, 10:27 PM   #12
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Ok I dont think you thought this one through yourselves. If this system is implemented it will be exploited to the fullest, and very easily I might add. Just think about it for a minute.

I have a better solution that I have petitioned SOE to do in other posts.

There is a simple solution that already has the mechanics set in place in the game.

IMPLEMENT MORE FAME/INFAMY LOSS

1) Zoning- The mechanic is already in game that notifies when someone has dishonorably fled. Just tack on some fame loss for this. This little thing would change PVP dramatically.

2) Groups and Raids- If a group or raid attacks a single target or smaller raid then there is no fame from that  target. This would promote more single player pvp and prevent guilds from raiding on single targets and groups. The game mechanic is already in place for pve raids and would just need a little tweaking.

3) Running- Add an fame/infamy loss for people who run from a fight after engaged in combat. This would help the plate wearers in pvp. This game mechanic might be a little hard to set into place, but shouldnt be that difficult to determine who the one that ran is.  The mechanic is somewhat in place, the same mechanic that takes you out of combat.

These three little improvements would increase the pvp experience dramatically. If you take away titles altogether it will cause the majority of pvpers to leave the game. So we expound on what they love to do. Put a little challenge to titles. Then we will really know who the real champions are.

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Old 05-20-2007, 10:42 PM   #13
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Zoning during pvp combat is not allowed in the next game update.
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Old 05-20-2007, 10:54 PM   #14
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EQ2Playa432 wrote:
Zoning during pvp combat is not allowed in the next game update.

Well might very well be, but again, I this is another example where SOE didnt think their idea through. When this is implemented expect for there to be large amounts of ganking going on.

Go ahead and prepare for this cenario.

You are out and about and happen to be near a zone line. You see a single target so you think to yourself, this is going to be a good fight. Much to your surprise after you engage the one target, his group unstealths or runs out from behind cover and wipes you because you cant zone.

Now since you couldnt flee, you have given fame to a single target and his buddies that were hiding, instead of just the single target for fleeing.

Get ready for groups to exploit this by having a lower buddy be ungrouped running in front of them.

Editted to give SOE a little note. If you read this and would like more ways to improve your game hit me up. Looks like you need some new brain storming going on over there. (Not trying to sound arrogant :p )

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Old 05-20-2007, 10:57 PM   #15
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EQ2Playa432 wrote:
Zoning during pvp combat is not allowed in the next game update.
Sweet!
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Old 05-21-2007, 12:00 AM   #16
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CresentBlade wrote:

They just need to take all the title huggers and put them on their own little server where they can all run and hide from each other and stare at their pretty little title all day long, while the rest of us play the game.

This server you mention eixsts, it is called Nagafen.
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Old 05-21-2007, 12:39 AM   #17
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Gromann wrote:
The idea sounds good, the only problem is that you are taking away the incentive for some people to pvp.  Lets fact it, there are a large number of active pvpers that only do it for titles.  With this proposal you run the risk of creating a gap between high titles and no titles and it could get nasty if any of the no titles decide they want to turn fame back on and don't really have anyone to gain it from once they pass slayer.
I'm trying to weed out those who "only do it for titles", or at least convince them (through proof of concept in game) that locking fame is the way to go.  People who only do it for titles are exactly the kind of people who creates the problems with PvP in EQ2 that I'm referring to.  You can assume that everyone would either be untitled or Champion+, but it wouldn't break down quite like that because fame loss/gain is a zero-sum game.  You lose exactly as much as the other group gains off you.  Therefore, once the gap is created between the locked players and the ones who choose to keep fame turned on, you have a relatively isolated pool of fame points being distributed between the titled people.  The only way to get more is for fame to trickle up the ladder just like it does now, except there would be a lot smaller pool of people to take it from.  My suggestion would most commonly lead to the follow matchups: Untitled vs Untitled: Great.  No issues here. Untitled vs High Title:  Still great.  No one has a reason to run to protect anything. High Title vs High Title:  Still fine, as far as I'm concerned.  Run if you want.  I'm obviously not involved here and if the fame wranglers want to tiptoe around eachother all day in game, it doesn't affect me,
IMO, the better route to go, would be just to set it so that once a title is earned you cannot lose it.  Base titles on max kills, and add new ones once so many people get to the max title or something.  People have no reason to run away from a fight, because the only thing they have to lose is a kill streak, or the coin they accidentally brought with them.  Any pvp reward system that penalizes you severely for dying does not promote pvp, it only gives incentive for people to run away.  
If you base titles off of total kills, then you bring other unsavory aspects into the game.  Just think how bad the zerg rushing would be, for one. The best, and really only, way to prevent people from acting like '[Removed for Content] in PvP is to remove the artificial rewards (titles) which act as a carrot on a stick for (unfortunately) so many people.  Do I dislike the idea of titles in general?  Nope.  I think it's actually kind of cool to have the "Dreadnaught" or "Destroyer" (the two coolest sounding ones imho) in front of my name.  However, the detriment that they bring to the PvP gameplay dynamic, in their current state, isn't worth having a cool little word in front of your name. I want out of this downward spiral, SoE.  I want the option to play without titles.
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Old 05-21-2007, 02:11 AM   #18
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sipharalt wrote:

Please forgive my alt account for this reply but i have been around here since day 1 SMILEY and understand how this PvP stuff works..

I also know Ohnoez etc about getting overseer (ex-venekor player, i'm ex-T7 venekor myself) title blah blah and wanting some recognition for his accomplishments. Great, grats/golf-clap.. However, having no title would not make you any less of a ganker/skilled killer would it?

People know who the good players are by reputation, not by their stupid title.

So why do you and others give other people who seemjust to want to improve pvp quality a hard time? and telling them to L2P?

(I'm directing this at Ohnoez, i have seen you play and although you are good at getting fame, you are a ganker, you do hang in groups, you do sit at WW cloud stations on the cliff snipering people with other duo rangers etc, you play the system to get a high title in all/any way you can.. i also know for a fact you are an expert runner, maybe you are in the olympics as well? Your title is just an extention and affirmation of your running skillz, ability to play the system.. which by the way .. you are by no means humble about...)

I find this quite funny, thanks anyways for the mention!  Always nice to see, who is your main btw since this is an alt account?

U dont know me because what u said here is hardly how Ive played.  I solo 85% or more of the time.  Only time Ive ever grped up is in Exile aka Vigilante now, and thats usualy because Im runnin to an instance with my grp.  Last 2 months I can count on 1 hand how many times Ive went out to pvp with anyone else.

Also the WW cloud area, only noobs die more then once there from a Ranger up top.  They learn, and figure out how to counter it.

Anyways... I really stand in the middle on the whole title thing.  Just see Pros and Cons from both sides, not just 1 like most everyone here is being.  Id say test it on the pvp test server, but we all know what a joke that is.

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Old 05-21-2007, 07:04 AM   #19
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[email protected] wrote:

Anyways... I really stand in the middle on the whole title thing.  Just see Pros and Cons from both sides, not just 1 like most everyone here is being.  Id say test it on the pvp test server, but we all know what a joke that is.

No need to do any testing, this isn't a complex mechanic.  Just implement those two commands as I have described them and let the players who choose to use them do so. Viola.  No more whining from anyone.  And less people running from PvP because someone or some group is within infamy range and they don't have the absolute 100% upper hand on them.
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Old 05-21-2007, 07:26 AM   #20
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I'm not sure if I get what your asking for but, I must say that apple pie is the best pie ever.
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Old 05-21-2007, 08:33 AM   #21
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Great idea!  Absolutely love it!

As for those asking why?  My personal opinion - I hate the title "Hunter".  I really do, it sucks.  It looks noob.  I would rather be totally untitled than called Hunter.  Yet whenever I'm Slayer/Destroyer/Champ or higher - I find myself getting angry when I loose fame to a gank and thinking about having to preserve a title - it just bugs me.

I would absolutely love to be able to PVP without worrying about fame and titles and never ever again see Hunter in front of my name...

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Old 05-21-2007, 09:09 AM   #22
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I'm not sure if I get what your asking for but, I must say that apple pie is the best pie ever.
/flame on I can't believe you would consider Apple pie as being the best pie ever! NERF APPLE PIE!  SOE, Please Respond to this request!  APPLE PIE does not deserve the title of being the best!  Remove it's title!  BALANCE PLEASE!!! /flame off Who cares?  If you dont' like the title system, please go to a blue server and join the carebear crews. ::off topic:: I like Pecan Pie with a hot cup of coffee and a scoop of vanilla bean ice cream.  Apple pie is good too, but needs to be nerfed.
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Old 05-21-2007, 09:50 AM   #23
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I dont favour anything which allows players to effectively hide who they are in a way that differentiates them from most others.

Level locking at least has a justification, but its COST is the fact it hides real strength from other players. This change regards that "lie" as a benefit, whereas to me its all cost.

I would envisage its primary use in practice (I am not doubting the OPs good intention) being in letting the player pretend to be somewhat noobish, while being in fact of a high standard. Boomz and Bangz wandering around without titles? I dont like that idea at all. They ARE tough killers with a huge reputation, why should they not be evidently that? Whats the bad side?

I dont see it reducing the problems with PVP at all, because the sort of players who would use it honestly arent the sort who play unfairly anyway.

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Old 05-21-2007, 09:50 AM   #24
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rvbarton wrote:
I'm not sure if I get what your asking for but, I must say that apple pie is the best pie ever.
/flame on I can't believe you would consider Apple pie as being the best pie ever! NERF APPLE PIE!  SOE, Please Respond to this request!  APPLE PIE does not deserve the title of being the best!  Remove it's title!  BALANCE PLEASE!!! /flame off Who cares?  If you dont' like the title system, please go to a blue server and join the carebear crews. ::off topic:: I like Pecan Pie with a hot cup of coffee and a scoop of vanilla bean ice cream.  Apple pie is good too, but needs to be nerfed.
Now that is a rather dumb solution given that he wants more pvp.
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Old 05-21-2007, 10:58 AM   #25
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shaunfletcher wrote:

I dont favour anything which allows players to effectively hide who they are in a way that differentiates them from most others.

Level locking at least has a justification, but its COST is the fact it hides real strength from other players. This change regards that "lie" as a benefit, whereas to me its all cost.

I would envisage its primary use in practice (I am not doubting the OPs good intention) being in letting the player pretend to be somewhat noobish, while being in fact of a high standard. Boomz and Bangz wandering around without titles? I dont like that idea at all. They ARE tough killers with a huge reputation, why should they not be evidently that? Whats the bad side?

I dont see it reducing the problems with PVP at all, because the sort of players who would use it honestly arent the sort who play unfairly anyway.

A good player's reputation preceeds them. And if you're unguilded, or mostly solo, and don't experience enough PvP to know who's good and who's not... then why do you deserve to know at a glance who is better than another person? And of course this all assumes that a high title equates to skill.  Which we all know not to be true.  There are very mediocre rangers, swashbucklers, and brigands walking around with Dreadnaught (or higher, depending on how much of a weasel they want to be), and exceptional coercers who will never see anything higher than Destroyer just due to the reality of their class. This is the Information Age, my friend, there are plenty of sources of "research" available to lay down a good groundwork of who's skilled and who's not.  Or, *gasp*, we can go out and fight one another and figure it out for ourselves... ...and for once, not care about dying while we do it.
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Old 05-21-2007, 11:16 AM   #26
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silentpsycho wrote:
CresentBlade wrote:

They just need to take all the title huggers and put them on their own little server where they can all run and hide from each other and stare at their pretty little title all day long, while the rest of us play the game.

This server you mention eixsts, it is called Nagafen.
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Old 05-21-2007, 11:19 AM   #27
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rvbarton wrote:
I'm not sure if I get what your asking for but, I must say that apple pie is the best pie ever.
/flame on I can't believe you would consider Apple pie as being the best pie ever! NERF APPLE PIE!  SOE, Please Respond to this request!  APPLE PIE does not deserve the title of being the best!  Remove it's title!  BALANCE PLEASE!!! /flame off Who cares?  If you dont' like the title system, please go to a blue server and join the carebear crews.You do if you took the time to post here. And please stop using the term carebear, truth be known compared to the other pvp games out there EQ2 pvp is considered carebear. ::off topic:: I like Pecan Pie with a hot cup of coffee and a scoop of vanilla bean ice cream.  Apple pie is good too, but needs to be nerfed.
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Old 05-21-2007, 11:47 AM   #28
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Just take out titles all together, they're meaningless in T7 especially.

There's no real reward for them and it just causes a majority of players to not pvp, but to be zone, bell, griff, cloud huggers instead. And makes people be very discrimenating in how they play.

If I see you, I'll try to fight you, or try to get away, doesn't matter what title you have.

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Old 05-21-2007, 12:34 PM   #29
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Posts: 296
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Pumancat wrote:

Just take out titles all together, they're meaningless in T7 especially.

There's no real reward for them and it just causes a majority of players to not pvp, but to be zone, bell, griff, cloud huggers instead. And makes people be very discrimenating in how they play.

If I see you, I'll try to fight you, or try to get away, doesn't matter what title you have.

Nyarlath - 70 wizard

Venekor server

Isn't that what people are already doing?
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Old 05-21-2007, 12:39 PM   #30
Captain Apple Darkberry

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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 394
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Not in any way trying to diminish the accomplishment of a high title...   ...but its as obvious as the nuts on a rat that they change the way people PvP, and not for the better. They do not promote people to go out and PvP, they promote them to ~farm~ infamy and run for fear of its loss. So yeah, it seems like an interesting option...
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