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Old 01-20-2005, 10:20 PM   #1
Jerh

 
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How many 21-35 mystics cast this on each mob?
 
If your not casting it, please start before you post anything about balance. Once you start using this and your haze skill, if you then still feel underpowered I would like to know why?
 
Thank you.
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Old 01-20-2005, 10:26 PM   #2
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So Delusion is worth using?
 
I'm 34 and have used that spell maybe once or twice when I got it... did not notice a lick of difference thus havn't used it. 
 
I don't have a "balance issue" though...  I do just fine.
 
Aesir
 
Add:  I would like to know what people think of Omen.  That's another one I rarely use... cause it only effects only one person and it costs to activatable slots.  Usually have on Umbral Fortitude, Prophetic Guard, Runic Shield, Spirit of the Rhino, and Ursine Oracle.   

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Old 01-20-2005, 10:46 PM   #3
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At lvl 34, I still use Delusion on single target pulls as often as I can.  On multiple target pulls I don't bother, and just cast Cry of the Ancients even though I'm not sure a Sta debuff helps at all.  However, Delusion does not make the difference that you seem to be eluding to.  Yes lowering a target's Str is a good thing, but it won't usually make the difference between success and failure.
 
Regarding Omen, I use it when grouped with another Priest.  Most Priest group buffs that have a HP or Power component don't stack.  So let the other Priest use their group buffs, which frees up a couple Conc slots for you to put Omen on your tank or yourself.
 
 
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Old 01-20-2005, 11:32 PM   #4
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I just hit 30.6, and got Omen, not sure I am going to use it.
 
From the start I cast Delusion on every mob (as long as we were fighting 3 or less mobs). I don't think it did anything at all, never really noticed much of a diference, untill the last big patch. It has been changed.
 
Please go try it out again and tell me what you think. In it's current form, it's very powerful imo.
 
In fact, I expect it to get nerffed.
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Old 01-20-2005, 11:51 PM   #5
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Jerhaa wrote:
How many 21-35 mystics cast this on each mob?
 
If your not casting it, please start before you post anything about balance. Once you start using this and your haze skill, if you then still feel underpowered I would like to know why?
 
Thank you.



Since when are debuffs the shaman's #1 tool this is not eq1.

A shaman's class defining tool is wards, not debuffs.  If you want to debuff liek crazy roll a necro.

 

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Old 01-20-2005, 11:51 PM   #6
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At X-mass time a lot of now people got this game. Mostly kids, now a lot of kids I have seen play these games are great players, but a lot are not. And I think the xmass wave has added a lot of people who are less interested in understanding group dynamics.
 
So for the next few weeks, you’re going to have to play teacher a little more if you play a lot in pickup groups. It might have been a legitimate question.
Personally, when I am main healer, the tank will NOT die till I run out of mana. That’s the way it is. If that means the other 4 die and then we die so be it.
 
If the tank dies, that’s your fault.
 
If someone else dies, that’s either the tanks fault or the player that pulled agro’s fault. In your case, it’s the player that pulled agro’s fault.
 
I will heal here and there on other players if I think it’s not going to impact my ability to keep the tank alive, but the MA always comes first.
 
If you had let him die, he would have had the answer to the “who cares” question SMILEY
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Old 01-20-2005, 11:54 PM   #7
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Ops, wrong post.
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Old 01-21-2005, 12:01 AM   #8
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Karlace wrote:

Since when are debuffs the shaman's #1 tool this is not eq1.

A shaman's class defining tool is wards, not debuffs.  If you want to debuff liek crazy roll a necro.



I am not even sure how to respond to this.
 
Are you saying I should not use my debuff’s because I am supposed to heal? I should not play the class the most effective way it can currently be played because we are supposed to be healers?
 
I think our most powerful spell from day 1 was a debuff (the haze line), and it’s why I chose a Mystic.
 
I guess I could respond by saying,
 
If you don’t want to be a debuff class, go roll a Templar.
 
I mean, I am not suggesting SOE turns me into anything, I am just telling you how it is now.
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Old 01-21-2005, 12:06 AM   #9
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Jerhaa wrote:


Karlace wrote:

Since when are debuffs the shaman's #1 tool this is not eq1.

A shaman's class defining tool is wards, not debuffs.  If you want to debuff liek crazy roll a necro.



I am not even sure how to respond to this.
 
Are you saying I should not use my debuff’s because I am supposed to heal? I should not play the class the most effective way it can currently be played because we are supposed to be healers?
 
I think our most powerful spell from day 1 was a debuff (the haze line), and it’s why I chose a Mystic.
 
I guess I could respond by saying,
 
If you don’t want to be a debuff class, go roll a Templar.
 
I mean, I am not suggesting SOE turns me into anything, I am just telling you how it is now.


Templars have good debuffs too.  Also, I hate to burst your bubble but the Haze line is not our most powerful spell.  Does it help?  You bet ... but it does not define the Shaman class.  Shaman are healers first and everything else second.  Sorry.


 

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Old 01-21-2005, 12:08 AM   #10
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I guess you could have been saying:
 
“If you want to do something other can keep the party alive, play another class.”
 
If that’s where you were getting at, let clear up why I debuff. I debuff for the sole purpose of keeping the tank alive. It greatly reduces the amount of healing/warding needed to sustain him. So the most effective way for a Mystic to do there intended job, is to debuff.
 
If this is not what you were driving at, please explain.
 
 

 
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Old 01-21-2005, 12:11 AM   #11
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Kalamos wrote:

Also, I hate to burst your bubble but the Haze line is not our most powerful spell.  Does it help?  You bet ... but it does not define the Shaman class.  Shaman are healers first and everything else second.  Sorry.

If we has a skill that doubled our mana would that be a definning skill? How about if we had a skill that could double any healer in our parties mana.... wow, now that would be cool.

 

Wait, we have that skill, it's called keening haze. Being that the tank takes 1/2 the damage, it's the same thing. 

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Old 01-21-2005, 12:24 AM   #12
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Jerhaa wrote:
I guess you could have been saying:
 
“If you want to do something other can keep the party alive, play another class.”
 
If that’s where you were getting at, let clear up why I debuff. I debuff for the sole purpose of keeping the tank alive. It greatly reduces the amount of healing/warding needed to sustain him. So the most effective way for a Mystic to do there intended job, is to debuff.
 
If this is not what you were driving at, please explain.
 
 

 



I agree with you.  The most effective way for the Mystic to achieve his primary role is to use all the tools at his/her disposal.  But being effective doesn't always mean being efficient.  I use debuffs when it makes sense to do so, but not always.  It depends on the situation, as sometimes the benefits of debuffing is negligable.  Also, there are times when I'm the sole healer in a group that's fighting tough encounters where I don't always have time to cast debuffs.  So in those cases the most effective way for me to keep my group alive is with heals and wards.

The point I'm making is our debuffs and slows can help, but they aren't always required for us to efficiently and effectivly fulfill our primary function which is to keep the group alive.  They aren't our #1 tool.  Heals and Wards are.

 

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Old 01-21-2005, 12:38 AM   #13
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Jerhaa wrote:


Kalamos wrote:

Also, I hate to burst your bubble but the Haze line is not our most powerful spell.  Does it help?  You bet ... but it does not define the Shaman class.  Shaman are healers first and everything else second.  Sorry.

If we has a skill that doubled our mana would that be a definning skill? How about if we had a skill that could double any healer in our parties mana.... wow, now that would be cool.

 

Wait, we have that skill, it's called keening haze. Being that the tank takes 1/2 the damage, it's the same thing. 



Ok where in God's name did you come up with the idea that Keening Haze drops raw DPS by 50%?  Some parses done have shown it's a 15% slow with an ATK debuff that effectively drops mob DPS by approximately 30%.  Good?  Sure!  But the fact that Keening Haze does nothing to slow MOB Combat Arts, which has been shown is where the majority of MOB damage output comes from, reduces that effectiveness greatly.  No Keening Haze does not allow me to use half the power I normally would had I not cast it.

 

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Old 01-21-2005, 12:41 AM   #14
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Jerhaa wrote:


Karlace wrote:

Since when are debuffs the shaman's #1 tool this is not eq1.

A shaman's class defining tool is wards, not debuffs.  If you want to debuff liek crazy roll a necro.



I am not even sure how to respond to this.
 
Are you saying I should not use my debuff’s because I am supposed to heal? I should not play the class the most effective way it can currently be played because we are supposed to be healers?
 
I think our most powerful spell from day 1 was a debuff (the haze line), and it’s why I chose a Mystic.
 
I guess I could respond by saying,
 
If you don’t want to be a debuff class, go roll a Templar.
 
I mean, I am not suggesting SOE turns me into anything, I am just telling you how it is now.



I am saying that wards are supposed to be the class defining ability, not debuffs.  i am saying that the devs intended shaman to have wards as their #1 tool and their class defining ability.  With so many shaman saying that wards are a #3 tool maybe a #2 then there is a problem with wards and how they work. 

The devs intended on  necro's being the debuff class. 

I am telling you that the shaman class as the devs intended it is not working as intended.

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being fire you are quite strong and powerful,
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many friends and you are always one people can
count on to do what you say you will do. You
are extremely loyal be it friends or family
you'll stick up for them and you are never
willing to put them in a position that could
hurt them. You know what roll you play in life,
leader, and you intend to let people know it.
Not everyone is capable of leadership but you
certainly have the willpower and flare to do
it. You have quite a temper if it shows itself,
one that can often lead you into trouble. Once
your mind is made up there is no changing it
but no one said that was a bad thing.


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Old 01-21-2005, 12:52 AM   #15
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Jerhaa wrote:


Kalamos wrote:

Also, I hate to burst your bubble but the Haze line is not our most powerful spell.  Does it help?  You bet ... but it does not define the Shaman class.  Shaman are healers first and everything else second.  Sorry.

If we has a skill that doubled our mana would that be a definning skill? How about if we had a skill that could double any healer in our parties mana.... wow, now that would be cool.

 

Wait, we have that skill, it's called keening haze. Being that the tank takes 1/2 the damage, it's the same thing. 



Jerhaa,

 

I understand that you really like our debuffs but let's not give them more credit than they deserve.  They are very powerful against lower level mobs but for anything white or stronger they are just something to help our wards last longer.  A weaker mob will seldom get hit's through when debuffed but the more powerful the mob, the more hits they still land.

I believe that our Wards and our Slows are both class defining spells.  They are a powerful combination that no one else gets.  I also believe, however, that our wards are a little bit weaker than they should be.  I have completely debuffed a mob and still had to cast ward repeatedly to keep the tank going.  This doesn't happen too often (Thanks goodness) but it does happen often enough to concern me.  And every time the tank pulls a group of 4 or more I cringe.  I know that I am going to be chain casting my ward and praying the dps can kill them before I start pulling aggro from the MT.

 

My 2 cents,

Coren

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Old 01-21-2005, 01:06 AM   #16
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See this thread for a numerical breakdown of Delusion, Keening Haze and Wailing Haze.  Try to ignore the mess at the end of the thread.
 
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Old 01-21-2005, 03:15 AM   #17
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Banditman wrote:
See this thread for a numerical breakdown of Delusion, Keening Haze and Wailing Haze.  Try to ignore the mess at the end of the thread.
 



 
His average hit points per hit with the Tallon Grunt (hard mob) fluctuated from not having keening haze (45) to having keening haze (51). I am going to assume that’s not a difference created by the spell, and just a variation. So let’s say the mob on average no matter what would hit, when it hit, for 48.
 
Without keening haze it would hit in a minutes time for 831 damage:
(48/2.6)x60x.75= 830.77
 
With keening haze it would hit in a minutes time for 518 damage:
(48/3.0)x60x.54= 518.4
 
So keening haze reduces the damage by 38%
 
Sorry, I was off by 12% with my “thumb in the wind” approach, but that’s still very good.
 
45 and 51 average damage is significant however, and it would be nice to know if this was an anomaly, or if the mob really does hit for more damage (when he hits) if keening haze is applied.

 

Message Edited by Jerhaa on 01-20-2005 05:16 PM

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Old 01-21-2005, 04:47 AM   #18
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Jerhaa wrote:

Banditman wrote:
See this thread for a numerical breakdown of Delusion, Keening Haze and Wailing Haze. Try to ignore the mess at the end of the thread.



His average hit points per hit with the Tallon Grunt (hard mob) fluctuated from not having keening haze (45) to having keening haze (51). I am going to assume that’s not a difference created by the spell, and just a variation. So let’s say the mob on average no matter what would hit, when it hit, for 48.
Without keening haze it would hit in a minutes time for 831 damage:
(48/2.6)x60x.75= 830.77
With keening haze it would hit in a minutes time for 518 damage:
(48/3.0)x60x.54= 518.4
So keening haze reduces the damage by 38%
Sorry, I was off by 12% with my “thumb in the wind” approach, but that’s still very good.
45 and 51 average damage is significant however, and it would be nice to know if this was an anomaly, or if the mob really does hit for more damage (when he hits) if keening haze is applied.

Message Edited by Jerhaa on 01-20-2005 05:16 PM


Banditman's research shows that only about 33% of total damage is from "normal" attacks, so 38% of the 33% is what debuffing contributes to.
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Old 01-21-2005, 06:20 AM   #19
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I use Delusion, is is a nice debuff, and longer lasting to boot, with Wailing Haze it makes a significant difference.
My big question is, Does it not seem to be a DUPLICATE or UPGRADE to Sorrel's Withering Limbs, which sort of makes that as a 'UNIQUE' training choice for the shaman, worse than useless, unless they stack, but even then....I hate to sound like a sour grape [I can only manage one :smileyvery-happy:] couldn't somthing slightly more ORIGINAL have been offered as the shaman choice, knowing that the SAME debuff was going to upgraded.  Now part of it is probably my fault for not researching the spell lines but I wanted to preserve some of the 'MYSTERY' of the game. Imagine my suprise.... 
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Old 01-21-2005, 01:14 PM   #20
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Regards to a previous post about shaman's main job is to heal/ward but NOT to debuff...
 
Go solo a green ^^ group with wards/heals and your usual melee/HOs/dots...
Next, try to fight that same mob with debuffs (keening haze, delusion) and your usual melee + dots...
 
After that, join a group with 2 healers (you being one), 1st: only use wards/heals on MT; 2nd: debuff mobs with keening haze and delusion early in the fight.
 
Now tell us the outcomes.
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Old 01-21-2005, 10:06 PM   #21
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As disrupt says,  you are not seeing the entire picture.
 
Yes, 38% would be fair for the STANDARD MELEE PORTION.
 
However, you still have that pesky 1662 points of damage coming from specials and spells to deal with.
 
So, total damage is 1662+831 (2493) without KH and 1662+518 (2180) with KH.
 
Which is to say, KH reduces the total DPS output of a mob by about 13 percent.
 
 
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Old 01-21-2005, 10:26 PM   #22
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Banditman wrote:
As disrupt says,  you are not seeing the entire picture.
 
Yes, 38% would be fair for the STANDARD MELEE PORTION.
 
However, you still have that pesky 1662 points of damage coming from specials and spells to deal with.
 
So, total damage is 1662+831 (2493) without KH and 1662+518 (2180) with KH.
 
Which is to say, KH reduces the total DPS output of a mob by about 13 percent.
 
 


Yay for numbers!  Hopefully we can put this argument to bed now.

 

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Old 01-21-2005, 11:33 PM   #23
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Just by way of comparison, a chanter can cast a power drain spell (I forget the name) twice and, in his words, "pretty much drain any mob of it's power".
 
So, while we have the ability to remove 38 percent of the 1/3 total DPS that comes from standard melee, a Chanter has an ability to remove 100 percent of 2/3 of the total DPS.
 
Things that make you go hmmmmmm.
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Old 01-22-2005, 12:09 AM   #24
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Banditman wrote:
Just by way of comparison, a chanter can cast a power drain spell (I forget the name) twice and, in his words, "pretty much drain any mob of it's power".
 
So, while we have the ability to remove 38 percent of the 1/3 total DPS that comes from standard melee, a Chanter has an ability to remove 100 percent of 2/3 of the total DPS.
 
Things that make you go hmmmmmm.



Did you test the 2/3 special 1/3 basic with lots of kinds of mobs, or did you just notice it with these 2?
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Old 01-22-2005, 01:32 AM   #25
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It has varied a bit, anywhere from 55/45 to 68/32 . . . it's simply easier to say 1/3 vs 2/3 for a quick frame of reference.  I suppose it probably averages out around 60 or 62 percent from specials. 
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Old 01-24-2005, 11:39 PM   #26
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From personal experice and testing,debuffing a mob will A) Make him miss more often B) Your groups DPS will go up 8-20% give or take a few pecentage,but definately after we parsed several encounters it made a difference in my tanks DPS.
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Old 01-25-2005, 02:19 AM   #27
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If you have data that indicates Shaman possess a debuff which includes an AC debuff portion please share it.  There is no indication in any description that we can have this effect.
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Old 01-25-2005, 02:32 AM   #28
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The only thing I can think of is our -sta component on delusion and cry of the ancients lines. If they do in fact lower mob max hps again. I don't see how that would contribute to an increase in group dps though, it would just contribute to the mob dying faster due to having less hps.
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Old 01-25-2005, 02:42 AM   #29
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That could be it.  Not an actual increase in DPS, but a decrease in total HP's of the mob.
 
I'm not sure how to test that . . . any ideas ?
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Old 01-25-2005, 02:45 AM   #30
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parsing 2 identical mobs should be the easiest way. Doesn't even really have to be anything challenging. Just kill one without any debuffs then the next with delusion and check total damage done to mob. There should only be a small magrin of error on the killing blow.

Message Edited by disrupt on 01-24-2005 01:46 PM

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