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Old 01-25-2005, 04:33 AM   #1
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If you were asked for a change in the way wards worked, would you ask for:1. Ward that absorbed more damage, same timers on them.2. Ward that absorbed less damage, no timer, but would disappear when it absorbed all the damage.3. Ward that absorbed less damage, but was put "after the AC", with timer.4. Ward that absorbed even less damage, but put "after the AC", without timer.5. Don't care, it's fine, and working as intended.6. Don't care, I'm going to roll a non-healer.7. Don't care, I'm going to play now.8. We had a ward? Why was I spam healing?9. Wards exactly as is, but block some % of damage from specials as well.Too bad there isn't a polling feature on this board...-NHEdit: Added #9

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Old 01-25-2005, 04:37 AM   #2
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From the choices you've given I'd go with #3.But it shouldn't have to absorb less damage because the druid and cleric special heals already have a higher value than wards =p
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Old 01-25-2005, 05:37 AM   #3
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Based on those choices I'd prolly choose #3 as well, with some expanded explanation. I think our wards should take on the AC of the target it is cast on, to maintain the balance of the spell's power and utility. Also I'm not sure just how much I would reduce the amout that wards absorb, but it should closely match the power of the reactives and regens of the same level given to druids and clerics.
 
This solution only solves part of the problem with wards IMO. I still do not like the way that wards work with reactive heals (i.e. they don't). Call me never satisfied, but I really wish someone could come up with a workable, implementable way to change wards so that they do not block reactives from firing. It's probably a tall order, and would require reworking the way wards work completely.
 
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Old 01-25-2005, 06:06 AM   #4
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True. I didn't want to open "that can of worms" by putting down an arbitrary number for "less". I thought maybe we could start something constructive and see what most would "feel" that the fix should be.Maybe there should be one or two more options, to place the ward before or after the reactives?-NH
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Old 01-25-2005, 06:12 AM   #5
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Vote #3 for me as well.  Although I don't necessarily know whether or not they'd need to be reduced in the amount of damage they absorb.  All I'd ask is that they are balanced against the other Priest class specialty heals.  If that means reducing the absorption amount then so be it, as long as it's balanced.
 
Again I have two issues with Wards.  1) They should absorb damage after AC mitigation and 2) they should absorb all types of Combat Arts and Spells.
 
 
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Old 01-25-2005, 09:06 AM   #6
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right now i will choose #8....
 
if they really fix us with choices, i will choose #3....but our ward already 20% less than other priests special heals...still need less value? then they are close to instant heals lol
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Old 01-25-2005, 09:27 AM   #7
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You don't offer a choice I would support.  While lowering the ward and allowing it to count target AC would help with the main tank it would eliminate one of our best features, we keep a caster taking damage alive better than any other healer.  There has to be a way to improve wards without ruining one of the shaman's strengths
 
Increasing the damage it absorbs or just lowering the power cost would help without  taking something valuable away.
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Old 01-25-2005, 11:10 AM   #8
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Aaldaaf wrote:
You don't offer a choice I would support.  While lowering the ward and allowing it to count target AC would help with the main tank it would eliminate one of our best features, we keep a caster taking damage alive better than any other healer.  There has to be a way to improve wards without ruining one of the shaman's strengths
 
Increasing the damage it absorbs or just lowering the power cost would help without  taking something valuable away.



How is a ward absorbing damage after AC mitigation not better than a ward absorbing with NO mitigation? A caster still has an AC greater than zero, therefore a ward that applied the target's AC when absorbing hits is better than what we have now.

BTW, if our ability to heal casters getting aggro they have no business with is our "strength", color me disappointed.

 

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Old 01-25-2005, 02:22 PM   #9
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>>> 3. Ward that absorbed less damage, but was put "after the AC", with timer.
It's the absorb less damage that only pays back if the target has high AC.  If wards can be imporved without giving up the ability to save casters/scouts/healers then why not.  Over the course of a hunt in a zone with fast respawns and roamers, you will at one time or another have a fight go bad.  Now if you have a tank that pulls into the intersection where 3 roamers cross... I like being the best class at saving the day. 
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Old 01-25-2005, 07:21 PM   #10
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3 is close, but still wrong.
 
Our Wards are already (as mentioned above) weaker than the other specialty heals, and we dont have AC mitigation.  Further decreasing the value would be like . . .
 
 
SOE Dev:  "Hey Clerics, we're thinking of decreasing the value of your reactive heal and having it take effect before AC mitigation.  What do you think?"
 
Clerics:  "That'd be great!"
 
SOE Dev:  "Ok!  You'll see it next patch!"
 
SOE Dev leaves the room.
 
Clerics:  "Ok guys, what WoW server are we playin' on?"
 
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Old 01-25-2005, 08:26 PM   #11
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Vote ====> 1. Ward that absorbs more damage, same timers on them.
 
I actually dislike the idea of adding mitigation based on the target's AC.  I would prefer one of these two solutions:
 
1. Our wards have a set amount of mitigation based on the level of the caster. 
 
OR
 
2. Our wards gain the ability to absorb more damage.
 
I like the way wards work now.  I just wish they were a little bit more effective.  I think adding the targets mitigation to the wards would be too powerful.  I know that's not a popular opinion on these forums and I may change my mind as I delve into the 30's and beyond but right now that's how I feel.
 
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Old 01-25-2005, 10:05 PM   #12
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Coren wrote:
 
2. Our wards gain the ability to absorb more damage.
 


I used to think I wanted this as well, but after I thought about it, I realized that simply increasing the raw damage absorption would overpower Wards on low AC classes like leather and cloth wearers.  Having Wards work after AC mitigation wouldn't overpower them at all ... as long as the amount of post AC mitigated damage they absorb is balanced with other Priest specialty heals.
 
Remember guys that the bottom line with Wards is efficiency.  As it stands now, I get more bang for my buck Warding a Monk, or a Druid, or a Wizard only because they aren't mitigating as much of the incomming damage as a Plate wearing high AC class.  Thus the more AC a person has the less efficient Wards are.  So in a sense Wards are punished for players trying to get their AC has high as possible.  We even have an AC buff which by casting actually makes our Wards less efficient.  That's wrong.
 
 
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Old 01-25-2005, 10:27 PM   #13
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Does anyone know if the reactive heals are stackable? Wards are stackable, and increasing the amount of damage they can absorb could be "unfair" if reactive heals/regen aren't stackable.Maybe past 50, we'd get something like Torpor/Q... Keep dreaming.-NH
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Old 01-25-2005, 10:38 PM   #14
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Noosehunter wrote:
Does anyone know if the reactive heals are stackable? Wards are stackable, and increasing the amount of damage they can absorb could be "unfair" if reactive heals/regen aren't stackable.

Maybe past 50, we'd get something like Torpor/Q... Keep dreaming.

-NH


Yes Cleric reactives stack.  They all don't fire at the same time, but when one expires the other takes over.  I believe Clerics can have up to 3 reactives queued up at one time.

 

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Old 01-25-2005, 11:38 PM   #15
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Coren,
   It would absolutely have to be the the AC of the target of the ward.  If you simply raise the HP of the ward you will completely throw off any attempt at balance.  As the ward would be way too powerful on low AC class characters.
 
This of course would make soloing alot easier, but would not be fair to the other healers.
 
Remember we are just trying to be equal, not almighty.
 
 
 
Assigning the ward the AC of the target would be a huge step towards equality since the damage the other healers deal with is already mitigated by the AC of their target.  I dont see how asking for us to use the same numbers in the equation as the other healer classes are using would make us "too powerful".
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Old 01-25-2005, 11:46 PM   #16
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Yes, exactly.
 
We aren't asking to be better than everyone else.  I don't want a ton of Mystics running around because they are perceived as "uber".

I do however want to be equal.  My specialty heal should have the same end result for the same amount of mana as a Cleric or Druid.  Right now, I am healing less for the same amount.  That isn't balanced or fair.
 
Give Shaman Wards that are equal in size to Cleric and Druid specialty heals, place them after AC mitigation and the Class is BALANCED.
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Old 01-26-2005, 01:23 AM   #17
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Banditman wrote:
 
Give Shaman Wards that are equal in size to Cleric and Druid specialty heals, place them after AC mitigation and the Class is BALANCED.


I wouldn't go so far as to say that this balances our class with other priests once and for all. It helps to balance our special line of healing when compared to reactives and HoT's, and I would certainly welcome this change, but that is by no means the only way in which Mystics fall behind other priests. I don't want to start a whole different discussion here because I'm still in the midst of gathering data, but I just wanted you all to be aware.

I spend a lot of time with Templars and Wardens, and I know what they are capable of doing with equivilent spells of the same level. And yes, I know what I am capable of doing with my spells as well ( I didn't get to where I am just by having a lot of free time to play). Call it class envy if you like, but why should this even exist if the classes are supposed to be balanced and equally effective?

 

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Old 01-26-2005, 01:44 AM   #18
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I agree that adding ac mitigation of the target to the ward will go along way, it will not make us equal, even as far as wards go.  Even if there was AC mitigation there is still a 20-25% difference in the amount that the ward will protect for, vs what the other healers comparable specials will heal for, as well as the possibility of what someone else said, where our higher level direct heals are much less effective than other classes higher level direct heals.  Unless this is what you are working on.
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Old 01-26-2005, 01:56 AM   #19
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Spagma wrote:
Coren,
   It would absolutely have to be the the AC of the target of the ward.  If you simply raise the HP of the ward you will completely throw off any attempt at balance.  As the ward would be way too powerful on low AC class characters.
 
This of course would make soloing alot easier, but would not be fair to the other healers.
 
Remember we are just trying to be equal, not almighty.
 
 
 
Assigning the ward the AC of the target would be a huge step towards equality since the damage the other healers deal with is already mitigated by the AC of their target.  I dont see how asking for us to use the same numbers in the equation as the other healer classes are using would make us "too powerful".



 

I disagree.  I think that adding a little bit extra to the max damage absorbtion of our wards would make them just strong enough to create the balance we are all looking for.  I don't think our wards are far off from balance as it is.  I don't really want us to be the same as the other classes.  I realize that they get a big break since their heals get the advantage of armor mitigation but I like the fact that wards work the way they do.  I like the fact that the Mage classes love us because our wards work almost as well on them as it does on Warriors.  I realize that Sony has a very difficult task, trying to create balance, or percieved balance,  between the classes, especially when one of the three doesn't take armor mitigation into account. But I really don't want my wards to be a lot more effective on some classes than on others.  I don't want my ward to drop even more quickly when a Mage is getting attacked because it's using his armor mitigation. 

 What I don't like is the fact that our wards will drop so quickly against multiple mobs.  I don't mind that debuffs are considered such a large part of our ability to "heal" (And like it or not that was how Sony designed it) but there should be group debuffs (especially attack speed debuffs) a lot earlier with less of a chance to resist or they need to add a little to our ward's damage absorbtion.

I don't completely disagree with you folk.  I understand where you're coming from.  I just don't want my wards changed in that way.  I do think, however, that any damage that makes it past a ward (the extra damage on the hit that drops the ward) should be mitigated.  I just don't understand their thinking on making that hit go past armor.

Anyway.  This post got away from me a bit. :smileytongue:

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Old 01-26-2005, 02:02 AM   #20
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No, that is not how Sony designed it.  That is  how they designed EQLive.
 
It was stated in beta that healing was to balance in and of itself outside of any additional utility one Class might bring over another of the same Archtype.
 
If that has changed, it needs to be stated, because in that case things are even further out of balance than it might appear.
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Old 01-26-2005, 02:26 AM   #21
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Coren,
    Thats the beauty of adding AC mitigation, is that your ward will work better on your mage than it does now, but also better on everyone than it does now.  Mind you, it won't be over powering.  Remember mages are supposed to be glass cannons, they are not meant to take a beating.  If they attempt to balance by doubling the ward, it will become effective on tanks, but way to powerful on low AC players.  You will be turning that glass cannon into a brick [FaarNerfed!]house.
 
Now this will cause mystics to be over powered as I have mentioned before, as we will become the end all be all damage prevention class.  Personally I dont want to see Mystic / Wizard combos running around owning everything in site.  But it sounds like this is what you are looking to do.
 
Right now wards use AC 0, mages atleast have some AC level, so the ward will still work better than it does now, it just wont make them godlike.
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Old 01-26-2005, 02:27 AM   #22
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LOL.  I feel your pain Banditman.  I don't pay as much attention to what Sony said during it's beta days (Especially since they completely revamped the priest subclasses just before the end of beta) as some of you guys do.  I just look at what is available to us now.  We are the only ones that have the ability to significantly decrease a mobs combat damage.  (How significantly is debateable especially against even con and higher mobs but still much better than the other healing subclasses)  We are also the only ones that cannot effectively use our signature "heal" spell without the aid of debuffs.  I'm not saying that Sony intended it to be this way from the beginning.  I'm just saying that that's how it is designed right now.  And, you know, I don't mind that setup.  It's more of a pain that the other classes but still effective.   My problem comes with the fact that our debuffs are too weak or our wards are too weak.  One or the other needs to be tweaked a bit.
 
I know.  Not a popular statement.  But I'm not trying to be popular.  I'm just trying to express my opinion. :smileyhappy:
 
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Old 01-26-2005, 02:36 AM   #23
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Spagma wrote:
Coren,
    Thats the beauty of adding AC mitigation, is that your ward will work better on your mage than it does now, but also better on everyone than it does now.  Mind you, it won't be over powering.  Remember mages are supposed to be glass cannons, they are not meant to take a beating.  If they attempt to balance by doubling the ward, it will become effective on tanks, but way to powerful on low AC players.  You will be turning that glass cannon into a brick [FaarNerfed!]house.
 
Now this will cause mystics to be over powered as I have mentioned before, as we will become the end all be all damage prevention class.  Personally I dont want to see Mystic / Wizard combos running around owning everything in site.  But it sounds like this is what you are looking to do.
 
Right now wards use AC 0, mages atleast have some AC level, so the ward will still work better than it does now, it just wont make them godlike.



Spagma,
 
I will state this again:  I do not want a large increase in the ward's damage prevention capabilities.  I want to see a small increase.  I certainly don't want to double their strength.  As far as Mystic/Wizard combos...I like the fact that our wards work well for them too but with the small increase that I stated I wanted this wouldn't be prudent.  When the ward breaks (and it will) the wizard would be swiss cheese.
 
As I stated before:  I like that our wards work well for all classes.  By your statements I see that you believe that they are already too powerful for the lower AC classes and too weak for the higher AC classes?  Oh wait.  I'm putting words in your mouth.  I'm sure you don't appreciate that.  Niether do I.  Please read what I write and make any comment on it you wish but try to react to what I've actually written. :smileysad:
 
Thanks,
 
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Old 01-26-2005, 03:04 AM   #24
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I have read what you wrote, and it seems you like being the savior of the weak.  Good for you, don't pigeon hole the rest of us for your ego trip.
 
You are close about the wards.  They are underpowered for the higher ac players but they are not too powerful for the lower AC classes, they are pretty close to just right for them, slightly more underpowered than I would like.  AC mitigation will fix both situations.
 
Do you not see that other healers special heals take place after AC mitigation, we ( boldly speaking for everyone) only want to have the same numbers factor into the equation.
 
Adding only a little bit would not help enough.  When it is guestimated that ac mitigation is somewhere about 50% on a good tank, this means your ward will have to be twice as powerful just to be equally effective on this tank as the other healer classes are by default.  If you only added 10-20% HP to wards, we would still be underpowered on those tanks, but begin to be overpowered on low ac class. 
 
Doing this will upset balance even more.  Again most people here are looking for equality.  I take this to mean "I want to be able to heal/protect a group as effectively as any other healer, albeit in a differerent way" (wards vs special heals). 
 
I dont want to be geared to only being useful in protecting low AC class players, this is not equality, since the majority of the time it is going to be a high AC level player taking the beating for the rest of the group.
 
I respect that you have your opinion, and you are entitled to it.  My opinion is that you are wrong, and your desire for a stronger ward will only cause more problems and widen the gap of equality.
 
 
Remember, with AC mitigation built into the ward, your ward will still work as well for mages as it does now, in fact it will work a little better as some AC is better than 0 AC.  Your mage friends will still be impressed by your ability to keep them from damage.  However your tank friends will now be impressed with your ability to be as effective as any other healer.
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Old 01-26-2005, 07:39 PM   #25
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I sincerely hope that AC mitigation is greater than 50 percent on a good tank.  I parsed my own mitigation a level or two ago, with some of my green AQ armor still on . . . I was mitigating 50 percent.  At the time I was using a Symbol, and am now using a Shield (I get Blocks) and my armor is now all yellow or orange.
 
Since I'm not a Guardian, I can't tell you what the actual numbers are, but I can tell you that if I as a Guardian found out a Priest was mitigating anywhere near as well as I was there would be some serious splainin for SOE to do.
 
It seems that perhaps a Guardian might mitigate at 60 percent or more, given that my green, medium armor was mitigating at 50 percent.
 
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Old 01-26-2005, 09:08 PM   #26
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Right, I was just going off the numbers you posted, in your "By the numbers" threads.
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Old 01-26-2005, 09:18 PM   #27
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Yea, I know.  I think I may have been low.  I was using numbers developed by disrupt based upon a L23 Guardian.  It appears that mitigation increases with level.  Not greatly, but over time, it appears to add up.
 
Once again, it appears that even the most favorable picture of Wards shows them to be underpowered, and when viewed in any sort of realistic role, they are approaching only "situational" use.
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Old 01-27-2005, 01:04 AM   #28
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Also to be balance you need to consider all applications.
 
Are any of you raiding?
 
1) Are all priest spam healing? if so are all heals about the same? heal strength...mana cost, recast timers?
 
2) Is only one priest class using their specials while the others spam?
ie; clerics chain reactive while others spam heal or shamans chain warding while others spam?
 
are wards misunderstood and not used?
or are they really underpowered
 
Using a master ward and still geting hit for 4x the amout of damage the ward absorbs isn't good but with AC mitagation will it bring it up to being balanced with others?
 
more often than not im still concerned about not getting the heal that the ward is suppose to deliver when it expires, this may not affect the MT but when someone else gets a bit of agro and you ward them and the MT regains agro it helps that you don't have to heal.
 
 
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Old 01-27-2005, 01:34 AM   #29
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The point that this brings up then would be that they absolutely need to fix the ward stacking problem.  Currently with 2 wards stacked when the final amount of damage is used on the first ward the remaining damage from the hit is passed on to the target completely bypassing the second ward.  Any further hits then go to the ward, like they are supposed to.
 
Like you said in a raid, the mob will hit for 4x of what the ward can handle.  If the target has 3 or 4 wards on them, as would happen in a raid situation, the damage from the single hit needs to be applied to the wards one by one until there is no damage left from the attack, or there are no wards remaining, then the rest of the damage can be passed to the target.
 
 
I guess other than that, I completely missed the point of your post.
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Old 01-27-2005, 01:53 AM   #30
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Melampus wrote:
Also to be balance you need to consider all applications.
 
Are any of you raiding?
 
1) Are all priest spam healing? if so are all heals about the same? heal strength...mana cost, recast timers?
 
2) Is only one priest class using their specials while the others spam?
ie; clerics chain reactive while others spam heal or shamans chain warding while others spam?
 
are wards misunderstood and not used?
or are they really underpowered
 
Using a master ward and still geting hit for 4x the amout of damage the ward absorbs isn't good but with AC mitagation will it bring it up to being balanced with others?
 
more often than not im still concerned about not getting the heal that the ward is suppose to deliver when it expires, this may not affect the MT but when someone else gets a bit of agro and you ward them and the MT regains agro it helps that you don't have to heal.
 
 



I was in a low-level pickup raid this weekend against the named Dragon in Antonica.  The whole fight went really quickly and was kinda confusing, being my first raid.  I was able to refresh my ward on the MT immediately after the fight started (it was already gone too), then hit Healing Ritual and then, to buy time to cast another WSS, I got my Eidolic Ward off.  Right as the EW landed, the tank died, and my ward was still up. 
 
I was one of 4 healers all spamming heals.  The DOTs were incredible and I'm pretty sure that was what killed the tank.  If this is an indication of raiding, then Wards suck in a raid.  Cosidering the ward is a heal, the tank died with a full one on him. /:boggle
 
Attaching wards to AC will have another benefit that nobody has really mentioned of increasing the wards strength with levels.  As it looks to me now by reading posts on this board, that wards come and go in effectiveness at certain levels.  I reason that there are gaps in levels where mob's damage is increasing faster than the wards effectiveness.  Thus some level 25's say wards are worthless and some 40's say wards are are worth using again at some point. 
 
Also the new changes in how AC is being reported, I'm betting will show that some high Agi avoidance tanks have similar or even greater AC than some mitigation tanks.  This new number (same actual AC different report) should put all tanks on a level AC range, and thus using that to adjust our Wards will balance us across the classes.
 
In response to the OP, "none of the above".  Wards should heal more types of damage (thinking DOT's though not exclusively) after AC, with the actual amount of damage balanced to match Templars and Druids.  Timers at about the same. 
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