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Old 04-16-2005, 11:53 PM   #61
-Aonein-

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Tamian wrote:

The dynamic of the game is so focused on the 'Heavy Tank' + priest.  Dont be supprised if SoE wakes up and starts adding/changing things to give more dynamic roles to those that are current just 'DPS drones' currently (and honestly i would like to see that even being the 'heavy tank')



Its focused that way because people are lazy and wont try or devise other ways which is the reason for the archtype system, for all class's to fit together in a Diverse way, im not sure how many times ive said this but i might make a Macro for it, what works for a Warrior isnt going to work for a Brawler. Its really not that complex to understand. I dont understand why people keep on persisting that the game revolves around Heavy Armor + Cleric notion. IT DOESNT, IT NEVER DID.
 
All i can say is, unless they give us some sort of Stun resist Combat Art for Heavy Class only because of the sheer amount of hits we will be taking in, then i will be very very dissapointed, unless they change the chance to stun on the mobs, ethier way, if i find myself more then 60% of the time interupted or stunned during a fight and no chance at resisting a Stun attack besides a pure Miss, Block or Parry, then i wont be tanking thats for sure. Keep in mind Parry wont be able to be increased anymore past its Hard Cap unless they make combat arts increase the hard cap, Avoidance with a Shield is down too 36 - 38% from 63%, Avoidance without a Shield is sitting at around 22 - 24%, while Mitigation has gone from 53% down to 44%, so until people run a serious serious amount of parses in reguards to attackers str vs defenders agility, then we wont know how well we are going to come out of this.

Message Edited by -Aonein- on 04-17-2005 06:56 AM

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Old 04-17-2005, 12:02 AM   #62
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Tamian wrote:


SageMarrow wrote:

Just thought about that - since we will be getting hit alot more often, all we will be now is the Meat Shield and the healer will have say so on what goes down in the group cause he is the [Removed for Content] life line....


I suggest, again just a suggestion, that you not post stuff like that )

The dynamics of EQ2 are such, right now, that the tank of the group is the be all-end all .. and goes forward like that into raid.  At least perception wise.  Let me go into more detail:

EQ1:

1) A FD class, Bard, Ranger (Harmo) would pull the mobs .. this would give them some 'perceived' group funtion and critical to that ground/raid.

2) A Chanter would help deal with CC, should the pull be bad, deal with adds, etc (#1 being good, and a smart group can elminate this percieved part of the trinity though not fully)

3) A Chanter/Shammy would handle slowing/haste .. critical to the outcome of beating that engagement

4) A Healer would buff/heal .. critical compoent.

5) SK/Warrior/Pally would tank .. being that meat shield protecting the group and taking the hits

While this bread the holy trinity (though there were work arrounds) it did give alot of dynamics to all the members and different roles.

EQ2:

1) Tank pulls (no real dynamic here)

2) Tank taunts

3) Tank acts as meat shield

4) Buff Classes buff .. but is there really the dynamic there?  Do they really make up a groups change to win/lose (key here is group)

5) Debuff Classes ... again, see #4

6) CC /shrug ... anyone really cc stuff that much .. there is no real dynamic in this

7) Healers heal .. /shrug same as before

The dynamic of the game is so focused on the 'Heavy Tank' + priest.  Dont be supprised if SoE wakes up and starts adding/changing things to give more dynamic roles to those that are current just 'DPS drones' currently (and honestly i would like to see that even being the 'heavy tank')

Message Edited by Tamian on 04-16-2005 12:18 PM

Message Edited by Tamian on 04-16-2005 12:19 PM



While some of your point are well made, one correction, Shadow Knights and pallys did not MT on raids, unless they where so over equiped for the content it was sick.  We could not take the damage.  For a while we filled the off tanking role, but once warriors got there aggro increase they end up taking that postition too.  Shadow Knights could be used as pullers if no monk was available, and Paladins would act as a back rezzer and top off healer, maybe a poor mans cc with root, but not that often.  I hope sony doesn't go that direction again, but I fear they might.

As for improving the raid dignamics, agreed that would be nice.  Give all the classes/sub-classes important roles.

V/R

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Old 04-17-2005, 01:41 AM   #63
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Gage Wrote a long time ago:

All that really matters is taking damage, doing damage and being healed.  Everything else is fluff.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___

This is the most true statement in a game like this, and it shows. While it is an unfortunate set of circumstances that its true.. its true none the less.

Nothing else really matters - and until they break the classes into *ROLES* in groups = its always going to be that way. The best tank will tank, the best healer will heal, the best dps package will fill the gaps.

Its going to always be this way - Nothing else matters in between. We play around those facts, and we play in spite of those facts, but that doesnt make it any less of a reality.  A warden will never be a Templar in healing capability - only thing you can do is make work arounds that are SUPPOSED to achieve balance. But they wont ever really.

I know some will disagree- but keep in mind that i said - we work around these things - and we ignore them to boost our gameplay experience - and we *BS* each other into arguments to achieve some sort of *clout* for **your** class.

But the reality never changed in spite of those things...

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Old 04-17-2005, 04:42 AM   #64
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There a two fundemental aspects to the role of the Fighter keeping a mobs attention (hate management) and what you do with that ire once its focused upon you (mitigation/avoidance). From the perspective of a Paladin, though I disagree with your view English I can see where he's comming from. The general perception of Paladins seems to be Guardian's lite with heals. From a guadians perspective its "wow heals, what could I do if I had access to those!" From a Paladin's perspective (at least this one) its "Bah, guardian lite". We can debate endlessly on the value of heals relative to the tradeoffs Paladins make to get them, after all there arent just gaping holes in the Guardian's ability tree when we get heal (theres a lot of interesting looking abilities we dont get). I see the heals as in part a compensation for reduced hitpoints, loss of dual wield, yada yada yada... Where I am really worried about a Paladin's ability/desireability as a tank: our direct aggro management is pretty limited, as every Figher should, we can use our buffs to boost hate, but from my admitedly partisan perspective I see Crusaders having to run to keep up while others walk when it comes to hate management. But anyway, Ive said my piece. Thank you for taking the time to debate with me English, even if we dont agree on things.
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Old 04-17-2005, 05:13 AM   #65
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   Ya totally, I like to have conversations with people about this, helps you to learn about other classes and what they are dealing with. If everyone agreed with me I do not know what I would do :smileytongue:
 
   I am not saying that heals are the end all be all that make paladins better, just different, but my original sentiment was in regards to the shield issue.
 
  As it stands, my view of a paladins heals were always in reference to him having less mitigation, defense buffs, and HPs. I was not fully aware of the paladins plight in reagrds to aggro management.
 
   And on a side note, guardians have some interesting fluff type abilities, but I think I speak for the overwhelming majority when I say all but one, possibly two of them are worthless.
 
   Anyway, I certainly hope the aggro issues your class has are fixed and changed as needed, so we are all on a pretty level playing field. But, with that fix, I do hope they lower the base effectiveness of kite shields or grant an increase in tower shields base %.

Message Edited by English Da Guard on 04-16-2005 06:14 PM

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Old 04-17-2005, 06:13 AM   #66
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Margen wrote:


Tamian wrote:


SageMarrow wrote:

Just thought about that - since we will be getting hit alot more often, all we will be now is the Meat Shield and the healer will have say so on what goes down in the group cause he is the [Removed for Content] life line....


I suggest, again just a suggestion, that you not post stuff like that )

The dynamics of EQ2 are such, right now, that the tank of the group is the be all-end all .. and goes forward like that into raid.  At least perception wise.  Let me go into more detail:

EQ1:

1) A FD class, Bard, Ranger (Harmo) would pull the mobs .. this would give them some 'perceived' group funtion and critical to that ground/raid.

2) A Chanter would help deal with CC, should the pull be bad, deal with adds, etc (#1 being good, and a smart group can elminate this percieved part of the trinity though not fully)

3) A Chanter/Shammy would handle slowing/haste .. critical to the outcome of beating that engagement

4) A Healer would buff/heal .. critical compoent.

5) SK/Warrior/Pally would tank .. being that meat shield protecting the group and taking the hits

While this bread the holy trinity (though there were work arrounds) it did give alot of dynamics to all the members and different roles.

EQ2:

1) Tank pulls (no real dynamic here)

2) Tank taunts

3) Tank acts as meat shield

4) Buff Classes buff .. but is there really the dynamic there?  Do they really make up a groups change to win/lose (key here is group)

5) Debuff Classes ... again, see #4

6) CC /shrug ... anyone really cc stuff that much .. there is no real dynamic in this

7) Healers heal .. /shrug same as before

The dynamic of the game is so focused on the 'Heavy Tank' + priest.  Dont be supprised if SoE wakes up and starts adding/changing things to give more dynamic roles to those that are current just 'DPS drones' currently (and honestly i would like to see that even being the 'heavy tank')

Message Edited by Tamian on 04-16-200512:18 PM

Message Edited by Tamian on 04-16-200512:19 PM



While some of your point are well made, one correction, Shadow Knights and pallys did not MT on raids, unless they where so over equiped for the content it was sick.  We could not take the damage.  For a while we filled the off tanking role, but once warriors got there aggro increase they end up taking that postition too.  Shadow Knights could be used as pullers if no monk was available, and Paladins would act as a back rezzer and top off healer, maybe a poor mans cc with root, but not that often.  I hope sony doesn't go that direction again, but I fear they might.

As for improving the raid dignamics, agreed that would be nice.  Give all the classes/sub-classes important roles.

V/R

Blackoath 30th Troll Shadow Knight



My post was more focused on groups then raids.. but as far as EQ1 and SK/Pallies they had a role on Raids and that was MA/SA and CC.  Further, for about 20pct of the names pre-time it was more effective to use a SK (mostly in our case) or Pally then a Warrior to ensure agro (mini AHR/TZ come to mind as examples).  Snap agro was fundamental to this ..

However, the core point is that there really is a limited 'role' persepctive in EQ2 versus that which existed in EQ1.   In EQ2 everyones perception is 'Tank->Healer' (Raids being Guard->Templar/Warden) .. and I think that drives alot of everyones issue.  Class/Arch route was good fundamentally as is the locked group method .. each by itself is a fantastic implemenation .. but as you start to piece all this together (plus a bit of bad marketing and broad statements) there are some fundamental issues with it.

If Mobs worked like in EQ1, and they would realize how avoidance impacts them as much as helps, monks would not be *$%#&!ing as much (hey everyone does, but least would give a role) .. Chanters would have a good feeling as to a spell line they really dont use now, but is factored into their balancing (atm lots of them asking for wizard level nukes, wonder why?).. etc .. you see where im going with this?

Sometimes the best balance is not exact blance but balance in 'need' and 'roles'.  Crusaders/Monks will always be 'percieved' as secondary dps drones in EQ2 when comes to having a part in Raids ... no knockback/snap agro use .. no pulling ..

Again, my take ..

Message Edited by Tamian on 04-16-2005 07:16 PM

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Old 04-17-2005, 11:40 AM   #67
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Yall have no idea how bad the changes are on test.
 
I'm a 44th Guardian.  Before the changes...I probably averaged around 54% unbuffed mitigation and could easily get that 70+ in a group.  And probably around 45 avoidance, I don't remember exactly.  But it could be buffed to 70+ with a shield.
 
Now my base stats are 40 Mitigation and 37.3 avoidance (with tower shield), 21.3 avoidance without shield.
 
Basically first thing I did to test was go without the shield and engaged a level 27 5 mob encounter.  The fight ended with me out of power and at 35% health.  Take note how far below me the encounter was.
 
In a group against blue mobs I still tanked just fine, but I did have 2 templars to cover me when we got mutli mob groups.  Single mobs with double up arrows aren't any harder to tank honestly with a good healer.  The multi-mob groups are a bit tougher especially when you get more then 1 group and dont' have alot of dps.
 
If you like to duo alot with a healer, you'll have a FAR tougher time.  We had a 46 guardian and 46 templar in my guild that couldn't take down a level 42 double up with 3 adds.  Only got him to 50%. 
 
Also, back to my avoidance, the highest I could buff it, was 40.9%.  Yes...thats about 2.9% was the highest buffs could push it.  Thats its...buffs are completely worthless now.  My own buffs pushed it to 40.3%.  The bard got it to 40.9%.  Any other classes were a waste.  Mitigation buffed up to about 54.6% with templar and self buffs.  But it wouldn't go beyond that.  Not even Hero's Armor added ANY mitigation.  It's a worthless HO now in a group.  Don't think I could get my parry any higher then 4 points above my base.
 
If we had any other melee class in the group.  Their buffs for mitigation or avoidance would of been absolutely useless and not needed.
 
I haven't even tested tanking on yellow mobs yet.  But from another post I read someone tested the % changes in cons.  And it seems yellow mobs basically halve your avoidance.  Sorry Monks!!!  Mitigation is still king, and you were nerfed on that too.  Gage, you got more to post about now.

Also, Guardians.  You might want to start putting together your own set of light armor.  Cause avoidance does go up with lighter armor.  So, you'll probably need it for some situations SMILEY

 

 

Oh and btw, the new fixes to Vengeful Strike and such line of our taunts.  Does really help out alot SMILEY  They actually increase threat now instead of threat priority. 

Oh and if you want to know what a 44 Templars base Avoidance is now.  It's 6%.

Message Edited by Eelyen on 04-17-2005 03:55 AM

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Old 04-17-2005, 03:57 PM   #68
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Eelyen wrote:
Yall have no idea how bad the changes are on test.
 
I'm a 44th Guardian.  Before the changes...I probably averaged around 54% unbuffed mitigation and could easily get that 70+ in a group.  And probably around 45 avoidance, I don't remember exactly.  But it could be buffed to 70+ with a shield.
 
Now my base stats are 40 Mitigation and 37.3 avoidance (with tower shield), 21.3 avoidance without shield.
 
Basically first thing I did to test was go without the shield and engaged a level 27 5 mob encounter.  The fight ended with me out of power and at 35% health.  Take note how far below me the encounter was.
 
In a group against blue mobs I still tanked just fine, but I did have 2 templars to cover me when we got mutli mob groups.  Single mobs with double up arrows aren't any harder to tank honestly with a good healer.  The multi-mob groups are a bit tougher especially when you get more then 1 group and dont' have alot of dps.
 
If you like to duo alot with a healer, you'll have a FAR tougher time.  We had a 46 guardian and 46 templar in my guild that couldn't take down a level 42 double up with 3 adds.  Only got him to 50%. 
 
Also, back to my avoidance, the highest I could buff it, was 40.9%.  Yes...thats about 2.9% was the highest buffs could push it.  Thats its...buffs are completely worthless now.  My own buffs pushed it to 40.3%.  The bard got it to 40.9%.  Any other classes were a waste.  Mitigation buffed up to about 54.6% with templar and self buffs.  But it wouldn't go beyond that.  Not even Hero's Armor added ANY mitigation.  It's a worthless HO now in a group.  Don't think I could get my parry any higher then 4 points above my base.
 
If we had any other melee class in the group.  Their buffs for mitigation or avoidance would of been absolutely useless and not needed.
 
I haven't even tested tanking on yellow mobs yet.  But from another post I read someone tested the % changes in cons.  And it seems yellow mobs basically halve your avoidance.  Sorry Monks!!!  Mitigation is still king, and you were nerfed on that too.  Gage, you got more to post about now.

Also, Guardians.  You might want to start putting together your own set of light armor.  Cause avoidance does go up with lighter armor.  So, you'll probably need it for some situations SMILEY

 

 

Oh and btw, the new fixes to Vengeful Strike and such line of our taunts.  Does really help out alot SMILEY  They actually increase threat now instead of threat priority. 

Oh and if you want to know what a 44 Templars base Avoidance is now.  It's 6%.

Message Edited by Eelyen on 04-17-2005 03:55 AM


Sure we know what we are talking about, i posted close to the same stats you posted about 4 posts above yours.

This is exactally what i was afraid of. To be honest SoE, if you dont fix this and it makes my game time less fun for me and my wife because we duo alot because of living in Australia and having barely anyone to group with in our timezone because you will not open a Asain pacific time zone Server or hell a Aussie server even, im sure there would be enough, PLUS the fact of the amount of CORE changes you have already made to the game which now im willing to bet you wish you didnt make some of those and have basically backed yourselves into a corner and trying to whip out some balance miracle in the name of game balance. If and when this change goes to live or if i keep reading such posts like above which there is more then one post like it on numerous forums, then i will pack up 3 accounts that are all on Station Access and quit game. I hate people that use this tactic SoE and its the first time in over 4 years of being a customer with SoE that i have personally used it.

Reason im using it is because the game is nothing like what you :

  1. Advertised it to be.
  2. Your community feedback to the people is a pathectic joke, its never correct, you think you know something about your own game and it just keeps proving you dont know a thing OR know what The People want " EQ2, your in our world now ", what more can i say. Im sure if Moorgard was to read back over past posts he would be kicking himself. He recently made a post that says we all take what he says out of context and that we basically treat it like its law, let me fill you in Moorgard, your our Community Rep, thats why we take it as rock solid information because you are suppose to GIVE us rock solid information, thats how you keep customers, not by [Removed for Content] down there backs and telling them its raining.
  3. The game is a mere shadow of what it was when it was first released and i challenge SoE to show us the graph that they would have in there offices with the number of customers that they have pulled in from Live release to NOW with all the ups and down periods that they have occured since then in reguards to new subscriptions, canceled subscriptions and people who contuined to play AFTER the 30 day trial.
  4. The only reason your bringing out PvP into the game is because you know that the " Other " game is starting to beat you on sales simply due to the fun factor that PvP inside a PvE enviroment provides, you ( SoE ) with the help of a producer letter by Mr John Smedley himself some time ago even stated that you guys are playing the " Other " game and having a ball of a time, i mean who on earth goes and tells there paying customers that there playing the " Other " game and enjoying it? Thats like me going and getting advice on a Ferrai or Porchse, so it comes time to buy a Porshce and you being the salesmen tell me its the best car in the world only to watch you drive out on your way home to work in a Ferrai, what a crock of BS, now i head on over to the Ferrai dealership and they tell me what you pay for is what you get and i watch him drive off in a Ferrai, so in a attempt to keep people here OR give other people some sort of interesting notion to find out where or what you will do with it to try and keep people here.
  5. For the trolls out there, i only starting feeling this way after LU#5 hit, before that i loved the game, it could of used some serious Buff stacking and Combat Arts, Abilities and Spell fixs for EVERY class, but apart from that, it was pretty decent and it could of held my attention for a very very serious long time, and i mean LONG time, but since LU#5, you have killed that SoE, and im sure with the lack of respect you treat alot of other people who once loved it are feeling the same way.

Please try not to take offense from this as ive just had enough of all the BS SoE talk for the last 4 years and empty promises, those who have played or play any other SoE game will know exactally what im talking about, here is a example, they have only now just decided to do a full class revision on EQ1 after we basically cryed out for it in a very NEEDING way, not a wah wah cry cry way, for some flavour and fun back in the game for the last 3+ years, why? Its simple, because there losing people drastically and merging servers together to keep game worlds populated in a bid to keep the game interesting enough to ethier keep people there or invite new ones. Now if they only did this BEFORE they decided to race for the finish line with the " Other " game, then they would of kept alot MORE players, and try and give me the BS of EQ2 is a totally new team of people, if so why are people starting to be announced as being on the EQ2 team that were orginally on the EQ1 team? If you ask me they have always been there and are only just now being introduced as being promoted in a sense to EQ2 team, more [Removed for Content] on my shoulders while i hear the " its only rain ".

Ok let me roll this rant up, if i see or read anymore posts like this where people are having trouble killing lvl 27 mobs at lvl 45 ( which by the way im lvl 48 ) SoE and it gets closer and closer to the LU#8 release date with no soild evidence from YOU ( SoE ) i will be hitting cancel, trust me, if you value what customers want which you keep saying you do, then i ( speaking from a hyperthectically point of view ) would be reading and probing this ENTIRE forum for a better insight of what YOUR players want, not what you want because its quite clear with the amount of core changes and patchs that you guys clearly dont even know what your looking for.

Let me ask this, is this EQ2 where it is based around Small to large group play in the vicinty of 3 - 6 players? or are we heading for EQ1 style with a new game engine, fancy graphics, a new storyline and the need for a FULL group of specific players to be able to do anything worth a pinch of salt?

Again i apologize for the rant, but if SoE care, maybe i have pointed out something which they may have overlooked which i seriously doubt anyway because its very rarely that a customer ever be right in SoE's eyes, before anyone replys with, not all games suit everyone, let me make it clear again, i was having the best time in my gaming life upto the point of when LU#5 went in, the fixs to Combat Arts, Abilites and Spells with LU#6 sparked my interests again, but seeing more and more of these posts every day, im starting to wonder what fricken game im even playing anymore. Well not the best time in my gaming life, but i was having fun none the less.

Like i said SoE, you dont [Removed for Content] down peoples backs and tell them its raining and for the record, EQ2, your world is turning to S.H.I.T.

Message Edited by -Aonein- on 04-18-2005 10:09 AM

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Old 04-17-2005, 09:45 PM   #69
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-Aonein- wrote:

The only reason your bringing out PvP into the game is because you know that the " Other " game is starting to beat you on sales simply due to the fun factor that PvP inside a PvE enviroment provides, you ( SoE ) with the help of a producer letter by Mr John Smedley himself some time ago even stated that you guys are playing the " Other " game and having a ball of a time, i mean who on earth goes and tells there paying customers that there playing the " Other " game and enjoying it? Thats like me going and getting advice on a Ferrai or Porchse, so it comes time to buy a Porshce and you being the salesmen tell me its the best car in the world only to watch you drive out on your way home to work in a Ferrai, what a crock of BS, now i head on over to the Ferrai dealership and they tell me what you pay for is what you get and i watch him drive off in a Ferrai, so in a attempt to keep people here OR give other people some sort of interesting notion to find out where or what you will do with it to try and keep people here.

Message Edited by -Aonein- on 04-17-2005 11:09 PM



Im not sure your asking or not for PvP, and will respond as if you are.   I ask you to step back and consider all the issues currently with Classes, PvE, etc and then really ask yourself if now is the time to add PvP.  I ask you to step back and see what impact that will have with the current state of the game .. and if you really stop and think .. I belive you will reallize this is not the appropriate time for it to occur, even /duel ...
 
Can you imagine the uproar from scouts the first time they ganked by a fighter .. they have no chance against fighters .. their best 'range' shots are from the sides and behind.  I wont even go into the Fear and Root issues that would beging huge uproars in the mage community .. and priests, well we would end up with the same other-vs-number of priest issues we had with EQ1.
 
Im all for adding arena's and /duel down the road, but right now there needs to be alot of work on classes and PvE side to make this game survive, PvP wont save it .. and if done right now . will kill it even more.
 
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Old 04-18-2005, 12:05 AM   #70
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Tamian how did you get that out of that post? That was a generalized post about how and why SOE is doing the things they are. And how it is strictly in the light of marketing competition.
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Old 04-18-2005, 03:05 AM   #71
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Tamian, what SageMarrow said is my reply, and thanks for pointing that out Sage.
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Old 04-18-2005, 05:19 AM   #72
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Well first sentance kind of states that ...  you underlined 'fun' which does somewhat change the context of the first part of your statement .. and thus why I started off the post as I did. :smileyhappy:  (Quoting "Im not sure your asking or not for PvP, and will respond as if you are. ")

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Old 04-18-2005, 05:45 AM   #73
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I can't see these changes as being good for guardians.

Caps generally favour generalists whereas guardians are a specialist defensive class.

It looks like guardians will be a poor man's berserker and it may be that crusaders become superior to both.  It remains to be seen whether they will break avoidance but from EQ1 experience the best place for avoidance based tanks (monks/bruisers) is as a dps class since you can "break" encounters with too much avoidance (which is what is forcing this change - it was just that all classes had too much avoidance).

 

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Old 04-18-2005, 06:46 AM   #74
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I don't care if SOE changes my abilities, but if they decrease my capabilities then I am gone. EQ2 doesn't have all that much going for it to suffer any loss of content. This change seems to threaten the small group/duo content, but we'll see.
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Old 04-18-2005, 08:28 AM   #75
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Fafnir wrote:

I can't see these changes as being good for guardians.

Caps generally favour generalists whereas guardians are a specialist defensive class.

It looks like guardians will be a poor man's berserker and it may be that crusaders become superior to both.  It remains to be seen whether they will break avoidance but from EQ1 experience the best place for avoidance based tanks (monks/bruisers) is as a dps class since you can "break" encounters with too much avoidance (which is what is forcing this change - it was just that all classes had too much avoidance)


Well Judging from more tests tonight.  A Berserker of Equal Level as a Guardian can cap at the same level of Mitigation and Avoidance as a guardian, as Bersekers can use Tower shields to my surprise tonight (where did I miss that?). 

So basically the only difference between a Berserker and a Guardian at this point is the fact that Bersekers have superior DPS and aggro capabilities.  And that Guardians can increase their mitigation very slightly towards types of physical damage.

I still have to do more tests to see how it plays out.  We have a parser in our group that parses avoidance and dps and the like.  I have a very hard time holding aggro off the berserkers.  I"m always out of power.

But I would have to say, with the way things are right now.  Guardians are virtually Berserkers with 25-50% less dps and aggro. 

Now don't get me wrong, this is just some perception from my tests so far.  There are supposed to be more changes coming.  Hopefully it will be to fix this lame avoidance and mitigation bs they put in 3 days ago.  So I'm not going to tell you to scream out and whine just yet.  I'm just trying to keep you informed of what I'm seeing on my daily groups.

We did try to take on a Epic x2 level 45 mob ^^^, with 5 adds (Some with down arrows).  We decided to use the 50 berserker in our group to tank it.  This is when I learned beserkers could use tower shields.  Since the mob was 5 levels below Badkore.  We figured, that he would get better avoidance then I would at level 44 obviously.   We had a 45 Templar and a 39 Warden for heals.  With a 41 Berserker and a 41 Troubador as other dps besides me.  So we pulled and engaged it, and got the adds down in under 1 minute I think.  But badkore (50 berserker) was getting so pounded, that the warden was oom and the templar was at ~30% mana when we got all the adds down.   And badkore went down shortly after, then the bard...then it came after me (I was the add assist).  But the warden evac'd us.   Going to try it again when I hit 45 (need 5%) tomorrow probably and see how it goes.

Blue mobs are still usually not a problem in a group.  Although I have to admit, we did test the avoidance of the nightbloods in Rivervale.  And basically they were missing me around 37-40% of the time on average.  About what my avoidance was.  Although all the Lamia's in the zone were only missing me about 8% of the time, and they were blue.  So one time when I got about 3-4 of them on me with 2 nightbloods.  I was getting spanked and only avoiding about 1 hit out of every 10 hits.  I got killed and the group evac'd. 

Later in the evening we were in the Drafling tower.  White cons were not really a problem.  I was able to effectively tank 3 double up arrow mobs with the templar and warden as my healers.  But when we got 3 yellow double up arrow mobs, it was a different story and I was getting spanked.  Although yellow mobs were still not that hard fighting 1 group at a time.  Maybe 2 groups.  3 gets rather rough.  Didn't get alot of chance to test it, but initially it didn't seem too bad.  Just gotta be careful about those 3 group pulls.

Here's to looking forward to a patch on Monday hopefully!

Message Edited by Eelyen on 04-18-2005 12:31 AM

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Old 04-18-2005, 02:49 PM   #76
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OK, according to Guardians Pallys = Guardians with Heals... but lets just look at the facts. FACT: Warriors have better taunts than Crusaders There are allways threads on ther Paldin board on how to MT if a beserker is in the group... as without EVEN TRYING he will pull the agro off a paladin. Guardians are not as bad in this reguard but it has been shown many times if is almost impossible for a Paladin to pull the hate off a guardian, whereas the reverse is it is effortlessly simple. FACT: Warriors have a much greater range of weapons than Crusaders. Including a ranged slot, the ability to choose ANY weapon on the broker, with no restrictions, this is a greater advantage than you realise - unrestricted access to weapons... and 9/10 a tower shield has better stats than a kite. Just read the guardian board how many times do you see a thread on whether it is viable to dual wield over using a shield to get increased dps. If you brought up that same issue on the Crusader boards (although we only have access to 2H weapons) you are bascilaly told to stop dreaming and get yourself a sheild unless you are farming greens/greys. FACT: Guadians have more Health than Paladins. FACT: Guardians have more Mitigation than Paladins. FACT: half of a Crusaders abilities are spells and subject to interupts/resists and fizziles. FACT: Paladins have heals Yes, we have heals, with a several seconds casting time, and several second downtime, tanking anything greater than a blue as a MT it not even worth trying to heal and better to continue to spam our Inferior taunts to have any hope of holding the mobs attention. FACT: A Paladins best abilty to keep agro uses up 2 concentration slots. Redemption... cast this buff on a SINGLE damage dealer and have up to 33% of their hate transfered to you - this means of course we loose our self buff and the same buff on the healer making course our ability to MT imparied again. Its a great buff... but only useful if one damage dealer really stands out - and you can afford the loss of our self buffs we should NOT have to make a choice between ability to absorb damage and maintaining agro. The point is that is how it stands NOW, with the proposed changes Crusaders will end up being hit more often (for less damage supposedly), and elsewhere in the thread someone had noted that crusader SHOULD NOT get as much avoidance as warriors. So after the proposed changes Crusaders can hope not to be able to ever cast a spell in combat again reliably... with that in mind lets review our skill list At lvl 34 Divine Attack - Oath Strike Divine Attack - Blazing Faith Crushing Attack - Vengence Divine Attack - Holy Sunder (but only with a 2H weapon so not able to use whlist tanking) Crushing Attack - Blinding Bash (Shield bash) Divine Wrath - AoE attack (Assault upgrade) - never use Noble Tome (Single Taunt) Blnding Light (Group Taunt) ... and that's it... all the rest of our abilities are spells. The Divine attacks also have a chance to be resisted as well... that is in addition to being Parried blocked and generally miss (something Oath Strike is notorius for). and just take a look at our taunt list... 2 underpowered taunts. The FACT is in order to tank effectivily Paladins HAVE to be able to avoid hits, this new system is already a smack in the face and if our avoidance is reduced to below that of warriors (as sugested by anotehr poster) then in tanking ability. Avoidance:   Brawler > Warrior > Crusader Mitigation:   Warrior > Crusader > Brawler Heals   (you kidding we can no longer cast spells in combat - not aplicable as MT) Overall   Guardaian > Monk  >  Beserker > Bruiser > Paladin > Shadowknight What we want is: Avoidance   Brawler > Crusader > Warrior Mitigation   Warrior > Crusader > Brawler Heals   Crusaders: Ocasional heals to supliment our tanking ability Overall   (Guardaian / Monk / Paladin) > (Beserker/Bruiser/Shadowknight) where a warrior relys on their ability to absorb damage a brawler relys on their ability to avoid damage a crusader relys on their ability to deal with the damage once dealt (in heals) A Beserker/Bruiser/Shadowknight have traded pure tanking ability for additional damage. Paladins should not be BELOW any such classes when you calculate the best tank for the job after all who woud take a paladin to be MT when you can gte a better tank who does more dps. Paladins arn't asking to be uber or to tank better than guardians we just want to be considered to be a worthy tank, and acceptance in a role which we were designed for. Also Shadow knights, they are already broken... this change is not going to help them any more.
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Old 04-18-2005, 04:09 PM   #77
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I think you are biasing your disadvantages on Crusaders a little too much.
 
I group with a Paladin as well in my groups on test.  And they tank just fine and do not require a shield to tank.  Actually went through permafrost with a paladin tanking the whole time using a BBC as weapon.  And honestly I prefer using 2H weapons for when I needed dps.  But due to this change, you need a shield regardless to tank. 
 
With this new change, Paladin = SK = Berserker = Guardian on Mitigation and Avoidance...least number wise.  Agreed, with Tower shield guardian/berserker can get that 1% extra.  But I have yet to check if that effects the cap or not.  And honestly 1% really means jack.
 
DPS wise it's Berkerker > SK > Paladin > Guardian...least thats my guess SMILEY  I haven't really tested SK/Pally dps yet SMILEY
 
 
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Old 04-18-2005, 04:13 PM   #78
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First off, a well written post I think. But are you sure that the following is really a fact?


boli wrote:

FACT: Guardians have more Mitigation than Paladins.


I cannot remember a dev saying something like this. We can buff defense higher for the whole group (affecting avoidance), but that is all afaik. If guardians mitigate significantly better than paladins I understand your point quite well, but I don't think this is the case (and I think for single group content the paladin is already equally good as a guardian if not better because they have a viable second role as offtank).
 
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Old 04-18-2005, 05:30 PM   #79
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Just on a pure numbers game.. guardians have allways had that extra edge in terms of mitigation of damage, I have never met a comprable guardian with lower mitigation score than my own. It may not be as large a difference as the health / avoidance scores but it is still allways a difference. and I quite agree as things stand now I love being a paladin... I think we work better than guardians in small groups and fast fights sense because of our flexibility. What I was trying to illustrate was that Paladins does NOT equal Guardian + Templar, sure we can heal but we are no means the equal of any priest and sure we can tank but we are no means the equal of a guardian or monk... but TOGETHER we make an equal (of a tank). Crusaders need a higher innate avoidance than warriors JUST so we can actually use our abilities - This isn't about stiffles or stuns we get that as well, but the fact half of our abilities are spells. you just can't trivilise our role and say: "Well you get heals" the fact of the matter is we NEED heals -  its how we work, removing our ability to use them effectivly removes us from our archytyple role of tank.
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Old 04-18-2005, 05:37 PM   #80
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boli wrote:
OK, according to Guardians Pallys = Guardians with Heals... but lets just look at the facts.


FACT: Warriors have better taunts than Crusaders

There are allways threads on ther Paldin board on how to MT if a beserker is in the group... as without EVEN TRYING he will pull the agro off a paladin. Guardians are not as bad in this reguard but it has been shown many times if is almost impossible for a Paladin to pull the hate off a guardian, whereas the reverse is it is effortlessly simple.

Zerkers can pull aggro off guardians as well.  they do it all the time.   Not sure about a paladin pulling hate off a guardian, but, zerkers can do it in a heartbeat if they try.   Also note, we must use a very low level AE taunt on raid mobs. Guards and Paladins use buffs to hold aggro.


FACT: Warriors have a much greater range of weapons than Crusaders.

Including a ranged slot, the ability to choose ANY weapon on the broker, with no restrictions, this is a greater advantage than you realise - unrestricted access to weapons... and 9/10 a tower shield has better stats than a kite.

SBS is greater then any tower shield that can be feasably obtained.   Anyone at 40+ can get the SBS.  If you know of a better Tower shield, please let us know.  

Just read the guardian board how many times do you see a thread on whether it is viable to dual wield over using a shield to get increased dps. If you brought up that same issue on the Crusader boards (although we only have access to 2H weapons) you are bascilaly told to stop dreaming and get yourself a sheild unless you are farming greens/greys.

Most guardians use sword and board on anything over blue mobs.   Not sure what the above paragraph is supposed to prove.  

FACT: Guadians have more Health than Paladins.

Even when you add in your heals?
FACT: Guardians have more Mitigation than Paladins.

NO, this is wrong.  We have the exact same mitigation.

FACT: half of a Crusaders abilities are spells and subject to interupts/resists and fizziles.

Join the club.  they interrupt everything we got as well.

FACT: Paladins have heals

I agree with this.

Yes, we have heals, with a several seconds casting time, and several second downtime, tanking anything greater than a blue as a MT it not even worth trying to heal and better to continue to spam our Inferior taunts to have any hope of holding the mobs attention.

Looked like that paladin tanking x4 epics was somehow healing himself fairly well.

FACT: A Paladins best abilty to keep agro uses up 2 concentration slots.

Redemption... cast this buff on a SINGLE damage dealer and have up to 33% of their hate transfered to you - this means of course we loose our self buff and the same buff on the healer making course our ability to MT imparied again. Its a great buff... but only useful if one damage dealer really stands out - and you can afford the loss of our self buffs we should NOT have to make a choice between ability to absorb damage and maintaining agro.

Sounds like a nice ability.   Wish guardians had something similer.


The point is that is how it stands NOW, with the proposed changes Crusaders will end up being hit more often (for less damage supposedly), and elsewhere in the thread someone had noted that crusader SHOULD NOT get as much avoidance as warriors. So after the proposed changes Crusaders can hope not to be able to ever cast a spell in combat again reliably... with that in mind lets review our skill list

 

Yep, the changes could very well hurt Guards badly too.   In fact, not looking good for any of the tank classes.   Not sure how your trying to say the changes somehow hurt you ore then us.

At lvl 34

Divine Attack - Oath Strike
Divine Attack - Blazing Faith
Crushing Attack - Vengence
Divine Attack - Holy Sunder (but only with a 2H weapon so not able to use whlist tanking)
Crushing Attack - Blinding Bash (Shield bash)
Divine Wrath - AoE attack (Assault upgrade) - never use
Noble Tome (Single Taunt)
Blnding Light (Group Taunt)

... and that's it... all the rest of our abilities are spells. The Divine attacks also have a chance to be resisted as well... that is in addition to being Parried blocked and generally miss (something Oath Strike is notorius for). and just take a look at our taunt list... 2 underpowered taunts.

The FACT is in order to tank effectivily Paladins HAVE to be able to avoid hits, this new system is already a smack in the face and if our avoidance is reduced to below that of warriors (as sugested by anotehr poster) then in tanking ability.

Yep, fact is guardians  have to have avoidence too to tank effectively.  /shrug



Avoidance:

  Brawler > Warrior > Crusader

When defense is capped, Warriors and crusaders will be able to avoid jsut as much as guardians.   Not sure where your getting this from?


Mitigation:
  Warrior > Crusader > Brawler

Again, warrior=crusader in mitigation.   We wear the same armor.   Not sure where you percieve this invisible mitigation bonus you think guardians have.

Heals
  (you kidding we can no longer cast spells in combat - not aplicable as MT)
Overall
 Guardaian > Monk  >  Beserker > Bruiser > Paladin > Shadowknight

What we want is:

Avoidance
  Brawler > Crusader > Warrior
Mitigation
 Warrior > Crusader > Brawler
Heals
 Crusaders: Ocasional heals to supliment our tanking ability
Overall
  (Guardaian / Monk / Paladin) > (Beserker/Bruiser/Shadowknight)

where
a warrior relys on their ability to absorb damage
a brawler relys on their ability to avoid damage
a crusader relys on their ability to deal with the damage once dealt (in heals)


A Beserker/Bruiser/Shadowknight have traded pure tanking ability for additional damage. Paladins should not be BELOW any such classes when you calculate the best tank for the job after all who woud take a paladin to be MT when you can gte a better tank who does more dps.

Paladins arn't asking to be uber or to tank better than guardians we just want to be considered to be a worthy tank, and acceptance in a role which we were designed for.

Also Shadow knights, they are already broken... this change is not going to help them any more.




I think many of your facts are just plain wrong.  You seem to perhaps have the grass is greener syndrome.
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Old 04-18-2005, 06:03 PM   #81
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Warriors have the exact same mitigation capabilties as Crusaders in terms of armor.  Guardians do get a mitigation buff, but it is not really very significant - it wouldn't suprise me if Paladins got better mititgation buffs.  Equipment-wise, the only advantage Warriors have is that they get tower shields, which is avoidance.
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Old 04-18-2005, 06:14 PM   #82
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Zerkers can pull aggro off guardians as well.  they do it all the time.   Not sure about a paladin pulling hate off a guardian, but, zerkers can do it in a heartbeat if they try.   Also note, we must use a very low level AE taunt on raid mobs. Guards and Paladins use buffs to hold aggro. So, this proves: Berserkers have good agro skills, the fact of the matter is you have more and better taunts than us. We do indeed use heals / buff to help maintain agro as well. SBS is greater then any tower shield that can be feasably obtained.   Anyone at 40+ can get the SBS.  If you know of a better Tower shield, please let us know.  Which you can also use - as I said 9/10  tower shields > kite shields I never said ALL tower shields are better. Most guardians use sword and board on anything over blue mobs.   Not sure what the above paragraph is supposed to prove. Many also use dual wieling for increased hate, I've met a few, even for the yellow/orange con mobs. Even when you add in your heals? Heals don't help when you can't cast them. NO, this is wrong.  We have the exact same mitigation You have self mitigation buffs... we do not. the difference is small, but you still have higher mitigation. Join the club.  they interrupt everything we got as well. Do half of your abilities have a chance to fizzle and be resisted as well? Looked like that paladin tanking x4 epics was somehow healing himself fairly well. The same mob that a guardian decided to strip off his armour to see what happened kind of mob? Sounds like a nice ability.   Wish guardians had something similer. Takes up two concentration slots which means you loose two of your buffs. Yep, the changes could very well hurt Guards badly too.   In fact, not looking good for any of the tank classes.   Not sure how your trying to say the changes somehow hurt you ore then us. Yes, they will hurt us more, we rely heaviliy on spell casting in agro manament, tanking (healing) and damage as a whole. More so than the other two  tank classes. Yep, fact is guardians  have to have avoidence too to tank effectively.  /shrug All tanks can;t work with 0% avoidance, I was illustrating that Crusaders already have te lowest avoidance of all the tank classes Being hit more often (for less damage) will hurt us more than it will hurt you (see above) When defense is capped, Warriors and crusaders will be able to avoid jsut as much as guardians.   Not sure where your getting this from? Reduced avoidance hurt cursaders more than it hurts warriors Again, warrior=crusader in mitigation.   We wear the same armor.   Not sure where you percieve this invisible mitigation bonus you think guardians have. 30.6 - Dig In : Decreases offense and slows movement but increases defense and mitigation Difference may be small... but it is there I think many of your facts are just plain wrong.  You seem to perhaps have the grass is greener syndrome. The fact is I love being my Paladin, just when half of your abilities are spellls  any decrease in avoidance affects us more than it affects you -as I said previously in the effort to balance Brawlers and Warriors, Crusaders are getting crushed in the middle.  
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Old 04-18-2005, 06:58 PM   #83
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.

The fact is I love being my Paladin, just when half of your abilities are spellls  any decrease in avoidance affects us more than it affects you -as I said previously in the effort to balance Brawlers and Warriors, Crusaders are getting crushed in the middle.
 


Glad you love your paladin.   I agree , they are equally as well balanced as a guardian or zerker, nice class with few complaints.   I do not see how a cap in avoidence hurts you more then guardians.  Since it WAS the guardians advantage by buffing up the defense.  When its capped, paladins and guardians will have = avoidence.  IE> guardians defense buff advantage is over.

So yea, doubt you will find many guards hailing the coming changes as good for us.  We hate them too.

 If your goal is that you want SOE to give ya the  tower shield or the ability to duel wield, I dont think most guardians will give a crap.  Go for it.    They would be considered by most a very weak advantage,  as most guards use Kite shields and rarely duel wield.    

No one here is asking for these purposed combat changes.   So, still not sure why your posting this sort of stuff here?   What, want em to add some kind of bonus nerf to a guardians when the combat changes go live?  

  May as well toss us another nerf in there, heh..      /shrug 

We do not like the changes anymore then you do.   But, we got about as much say so in the changes as you do, which is nil.  

 

 

 


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Old 04-18-2005, 07:03 PM   #84
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Anyone else see the irony...the one archetype that is the most balanced and fun out of them all is the one that is being drastically nerfed?  Dont give me any BS about raids, etc...the truth is and everyone knows it that all 6 Fighters can tank 99.9% of the game and have fun doing it.  By comparision we have Shamans not coming close to the healing power of Clerics or even Druids. We have Enchanters still trying to figure out what the hell their purpose is while they get 2 shotted by solo mobs. We have Scouts trying to figure out..."am I DPS or am a speed buff?"
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Old 04-18-2005, 07:36 PM   #85
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If your goal is that you want SOE to give ya the  tower shield or the ability to duel wield, I dont think most guardians will give a crap.  Go for it.    They would be considered by most a very weak advantage,  as most guards use Kite shields and rarely duel wield.    The only opportunity I would ask for is the ability to use my abilities, with them we are balanced... without them we are gimped. I just hope tha with the coming changed Crusader will actually be able to cast spells and tank at the same time (to the same degree as it is now)... its not much to ask the use of our own abilities.
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Old 04-18-2005, 07:37 PM   #86
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RafaelSmith wrote:
Anyone else see the irony...the one archetype that is the most balanced and fun out of them all is the one that is being drastically nerfed?  Dont give me any BS about raids, etc...the truth is and everyone knows it that all 6 Fighters can tank 99.9% of the game and have fun doing it. 

By comparision we have Shamans not coming close to the healing power of Clerics or even Druids.

We have Enchanters still trying to figure out what the hell their purpose is while they get 2 shotted by solo mobs.

We have Scouts trying to figure out..."am I DPS or am a speed buff?"


The real irony is that you have the gaul to post this when the SK's are just as badly broken as those you mention -AND- if take the time to read most the posts made by many of the same on this thread you would see that we have been very vocal about the same issues you listed.
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Old 04-18-2005, 07:45 PM   #87
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boli wrote:
If your goal is that you want SOE to give ya the  tower shield or the ability to duel wield, I dont think most guardians will give a crap.  Go for it.    They would be considered by most a very weak advantage,  as most guards use Kite shields and rarely duel wield.   

The only opportunity I would ask for is the ability to use my abilities, with them we are balanced... without them we are gimped. I just hope tha with the coming changed Crusader will actually be able to cast spells and tank at the same time (to the same degree as it is now)... its not much to ask the use of our own abilities.



Yes, right now, the fighters looked pretty balanced.   I think your asking in the wrong place.  I have  Sks, paladins, zerkers, casters, healers, scouts etc. on my friends list and in guild.   All of them are very unhappy with these upcoming changes.  

 Rather then waste our time speculating on which crappy tank class will be the crappiest, we should probably focus our attention elsewhere.

 On the bright side,since the zones have been revamped (made much easier), leveling is easier, etc. All this at the same time as the purposed combat changes. (coincidense?).

Lets just say that the game is becoming very "alternate friendly".     Maybe we should focus on a "power leveling a rotunga bruiser to 50 in record time" guide.    :smileyhappy:

Message Edited by uglak on 04-18-2005 08:46 AM

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Old 04-18-2005, 08:20 PM   #88
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boli wrote:
If your goal is that you want SOE to give ya the  tower shield or the ability to duel wield, I dont think most guardians will give a crap.  Go for it.    They would be considered by most a very weak advantage,  as most guards use Kite shields and rarely duel wield.   

The only opportunity I would ask for is the ability to use my abilities, with them we are balanced... without them we are gimped. I just hope tha with the coming changed Crusader will actually be able to cast spells and tank at the same time (to the same degree as it is now)... its not much to ask the use of our own abilities.



The only reason Guardians have like 3% more mitigation from our sellf buff is because that is our class abilities.  You have heals, wards, etc.  We have a small mitigation buff.  Very Very Very small in the scheme of things. 

Guardians have no secondary role then to tank. 

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Old 04-18-2005, 09:22 PM   #89
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Eelyen wrote:

Guardians have no secondary role then to tank. 


Not true.
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Old 04-18-2005, 09:46 PM   #90
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Gage-Mikel wrote:

Eelyen wrote:

Guardians have no secondary role then to tank. 


Not true.

Oh god here we go again.  I have parsed every group situation ive been in thus far and I have NEVER NEVER done more DPS than mages or scouts....Dont come here and tell me the role of my class is anything other than to TANK.  Go flop around on the ground somewhere and *$%#&!.
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