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Old 04-14-2005, 09:47 AM   #1
Moontayle

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This is currently on the Test Server as far as changes go.

 


Avoidance

- Your likelihood of avoiding an attack is now based on two primary factors:
  - The con color of the attacker.
  - The type of armor you are wearing. The heavier your armor, the lower your chances of avoiding an attack.
  - Increasing your Defense skill gives you a better chance of avoiding attacks, but there is now a cap on how much it can be buffed or debuffed.
  - Increasing your Agility improves your base chance of avoiding an attack, but it will not improve your likelihood of parrying, deflecting, or blocking with a shield.
  - There is now a cap on the effectiveness of Deflection buffs and debuffs.
  - Mages and Priests no longer receive the Parry skill. It temporarily still shows in the Skills window, but these archetypes will no longer have any chance to parry.
  - There is no longer any way to buff the Parry skill over your current skill cap, and there is a limit on how far it can be debuffed.
  - Shields now have the following base chances to Block: Tower (20%), Kite (19%), Round (5%), Buckler (3%). Your chances to Block scale up or down based on the con of your opponent. Shield buffs no longer have any effect.

Mitigation
- The base mitigation values of armor have been adjusted as follows: Heavy (35%), Medium (25%), Light (20%), Very Light (10%).
- Mitigation values scale up or down based on the con color of your attacker.
- There is now a cap on how much mitigation can be buffed or debuffed.

Damage
- Melee damage bonuses are now calculated based on the attacker's strength versus the defender's agility.
- The damage output of both players and NPCs should now increase more smoothly rather than receiving a sharp boost at levels 10 and 20.


I'm willing to take this in stride if it works like they want it to. Having a base 20% with a Tower shield will be good, and the 19% at Kite shield won't hurt too much if the stats are better, so that gives us more variety if we're willing to part with that 1%. Scaling mitigation and avoidance based on opponents level already happened so that's no big deal.

However, the Parry thing worries me. Guardian's Call and Call to Battle both buff Parry so what is going to happen to those two skills?

So essentially it looks good on paper. Now to see what it's like in the field.

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Old 04-14-2005, 10:29 AM   #2
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What happened to never surrender???? LoL
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Old 04-14-2005, 11:10 AM   #3
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Some of my concerns:

Parry cannot be buffed - what happens to our parry buffs?

Defense is capped - will this limit our character growth and group desirability? That is, why bother raising a defense buff skill or have more than a certain amount of defense buffing in a group?

Less dodging with heavy armor - am I going to be effectively silenced(via crushing blow) in an encounter with more than one NPC? Not this will make it very hard to cast the aggro inducing buffs and group taunts due to cast duraiton.

 

These are things that popped into my head while reading that, its really pretty vague right now so hard to determine the totality of the changes yet. Are there any higher level guards/serkers on test who can check this out?

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Old 04-14-2005, 11:30 AM   #4
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  I am sure they are taking a look at a guardians ability to avoid / be stunned.
 
  What people tend to miss is that a guardian, as well as any plate tank, will be rendered 100% useless if his avoidance is so low that he can't avoid a large amount of attacks.
 
   If this is not taken care of, either through spell additions or inherent stun avoidance abilities, you will see many guardians quit, as it will not equate to balance, but a totally useless class.
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Old 04-14-2005, 01:12 PM   #5
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Well our class really has only one use anyway - meat shield. I can do away with parry buffs.   I just don't want my mitigation to fall too much and/or my avoidance to severely be crippled (dodge, block, parry, and riposte).  I have a feeling that SOE is doing a knee-jerk reaction and effectively debuffing everyone TOO much in order to compensate for the fact that people are winning fights that they feel shouldn't be winnable.   Example:  Vindication doing Venekor with 15 people.   I'm fairly sure a Group x 4 mob should require 4 groups, especially if its 53rd+ and such.  But I digress. I've always contended that we should remain right around 50% / 50%.  Looks like we're pushing 40/50 or so with these updates, but I won't know until this goes live.  Would like to see someone on test comment.
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Old 04-14-2005, 02:40 PM   #6
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English Da Guard wrote:
  I am sure they are taking a look at a guardians ability to avoid / be stunned.
 
  What people tend to miss is that a guardian, as well as any plate tank, will be rendered 100% useless if his avoidance is so low that he can't avoid a large amount of attacks.
 
   If this is not taken care of, either through spell additions or inherent stun avoidance abilities, you will see many guardians quit, as it will not equate to balance, but a totally useless class.



You have more faith then I do.  But I hope your right. SMILEY

If the defense is capped, does that mean that any other tank class will have the same amount of defense as a guardian, if they have a warder/troub with them?  Would that make a troub/warden defense buffs worthless when theyre grouped with a guard?

IE> Will a gnome zerker/paladin/monk grouped with a troub/warden have the same defense as a ogre guard grouped with a troub/warden?
 
Depending on the cap, this could make alot of our defense buffs/racial traits etc. worthless in raids.
 
But, guess we do not know for sure until we see that cap... 
 
I bet the bards are nervouse...

Message Edited by uglak on 04-14-2005 03:53 AM

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Old 04-14-2005, 03:05 PM   #7
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Lets see what happens guys with the patch. no point speculating till we either get some hard data from test or wait till patch.

If they nerf us to much, all we have to do is shout as loud as the other classes that already have and get it changed :smileywink:

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Old 04-14-2005, 03:38 PM   #8
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it seems like they are down scaling everything, mob damage spikes and all.

They are also boosting preist heals, so something tells me this is the tip of the ice berg and we will be getting some changes to taunts and such when the preist balancing ensues..

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Old 04-14-2005, 04:32 PM   #9
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Caps are never a good thing from past experience.   Why upgrade armor if you already have the cap?  Why raise stats if you can reach the cap?   Why have x class in your group if you can reach the cap?  Why have x buff if y buff already made you reach the cap?  What good is X fable loot if your already at the cap?

It limits your character building, group building, etc.   Caps are generally a band aid fix to a deeper problem.   They limit your options/strategies etc. for both group make up and your character make up.

Of course, we do not really know where these caps are and how far its going to be taken..

Did that just say that all heavy armor will have the same mitigation?   As in, Ebon not gonna help much over fulginate? 

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Old 04-14-2005, 05:35 PM   #10
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Now lets all bow our heads and pray for the lost fighters... the crusaders who got stuck between the brawlers and the guardians and were subsequently crushed to death. Guradians needed to be adjusted... we all knew it was coming - you'll avoid less but mitigate more just like moorguard promised... and just like he promised Pallys the gimped guardians will no longer be able to cast a single spell in comabt and hang up our holy boots in shame at the inability to farm greys.
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Old 04-14-2005, 05:48 PM   #11
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uglak wrote:

Did that just say that all heavy armor will have the same mitigation?   As in, Ebon not gonna help much over fulginate? 


Thats the first question I had when I read the patch notes...ok maybe not the real first question i had was..."Do Mages really need a nerf in tanking..." =P It said "BASE" mitigation of HA will be 35%.  What does BASE mean...for that matter what does the mitigation value on the armor pieces themselves mean?  Is everything based around "average/common" gear for a particular tier...i.e A full set of fulginate will equal 35% mitigation...so Ebon and better drops will increase that somewhat? Why oh why do they need to complicate things even more?
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Old 04-14-2005, 06:10 PM   #12
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Personally.

I think there should be more of a difference between kite and tower shields.  Like 20% for Kite, 25% for tower, or something along those lines.  1% seems rather idiotic.

Also, losing the +parry buffs are going to hurt... but, maybe they will replace the +parry with +mitigation or something like that.

 

If any of you guys have high level Guards on test.. now would be a great time to share the actual affects. hehe

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Old 04-14-2005, 07:24 PM   #13
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A tower shield only has a 1% benefit to kite?  Please.  That makes no sense at all.  I'll start carrying a kite just because it's easier to see around.  The tower is 3 times the size.  Common sense says 1% is nuts. I'm concerned about this cap thing.  I build my toons to max the skill for the class.  I've read a rating of "200" in any one -- Str, Wis, Agi, etc, is the cap?   Is this true?  My L38 Templar is at 202 Wis right now -- is it capped?  I was looking forward to getting my Guardian to 200 Str; he's already 110 at L23.  I can clearly see if it's capped; once I hit T4 I'll won't bother upgrade squat since I'll be at the cap. But the original thought -- Tower shield should be AT LEAST 5% better then kite; I think 10 to 15% better would be appropriate based on size alone.  That's the whole point for having that huge thing.  ESPECIALLY is we're expected to take more hits with the nerfs -- we need that big thing with a SIGNIFICANT defense/block buff -- or there is NO POINT in being a Guardian. Make everyone a Mage.  No one needs armor or shields.  We'll talk our way thru fights.  Oh; that's better; no fighting we'll negotiate settlements with MoBs.
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Old 04-14-2005, 07:44 PM   #14
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uglak wrote:

Caps are never a good thing from past experience.   Why upgrade armor if you already have the cap?  Why raise stats if you can reach the cap?   Why have x class in your group if you can reach the cap?  Why have x buff if y buff already made you reach the cap?  What good is X fable loot if your already at the cap?



These were pretty much my thoughts.  That and the fact that you can no longer buff parry.  I certainly didn't see any adjustments under Guardian Ability changes that addressed our parry buffs.

These update notes scare me. 

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Old 04-14-2005, 07:45 PM   #15
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Having Shields and Armor have a set % of mitigation/avoidance just sounds wierd.  Gear obviously differs in quality and this should have some impact on its performance.  They need to explain how the quality of gear affects combat before we can understand how things will end up. The other thing - no parry buffs, caps on defense and mitigation values, etc.  This obviously is scary for Guardian's because these are what define the class.  What happens to our Parry buffs - I see no indication in the patch notes that these will be changed to be something useful, do we just end up with an entire line of broken combat arts?  Will our defense and mitigation buffs actually be useful now?  If a normal group can buff any fighter's tanking abilities to their cap and they are equal that of a guardian, it makes us probably the least desirable tank.  We sacrifice a lot of utility, DPS, etc for those defensive abilities.  If any tank can obtain that level of defensive effectiveness on top of their other advantages, there is no reason for the Guardian class to exist at all. I'm not ready to scream about the sky falling since I think this is just the tip of the iceberg for the changes coming, but these changes definitely will cause a lot of issues with the Guardian class if not addressed.
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Old 04-14-2005, 07:47 PM   #16
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They are killing the game. Caps make bards and Dirges useless now. The monks like Gage have finally gotten their wish. Guardians are going to be spending 70% of their time stunned and stifled. They havent reduced the chance of mobs to stun and stifle you and when you get in combat with these new things, guess what? You get hit tripple the number of times and that is statistically tripple the chance to stun you.
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Old 04-14-2005, 08:09 PM   #17
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Strast wrote:
They are killing the game.

Caps make bards and Dirges useless now.

The monks like Gage have finally gotten their wish.

Guardians are going to be spending 70% of their time stunned and stifled. They havent reduced the chance of mobs to stun and stifle you and when you get in combat with these new things, guess what? You get hit tripple the number of times and that is statistically tripple the chance to stun you.

Oh please.  People trivializing encounters is what brought on these changes.  Not me.
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Old 04-14-2005, 08:09 PM   #18
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On a side note - what is the current parry rate for tower shields against an even con monster? I'd venture to say that it is nowhere near 20% even with buffs.  Seems like the parry skill and sheild type are actually gaining a lot of importance with this change.  Warriors being able to dodge 1/5 attacks simply based on their shield type is pretty significant. Also, it has been mentioned, the 19% for kite shields is probably a typo.  Maybe not, but 10 or 15% would seem to make more sense.  We'll see - we are still missing a lot of info about the chnages.
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Old 04-14-2005, 08:53 PM   #19
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I will have to actually play once this is live to tell if it is good or bad.
 
A few points/questions
 
1.  What were the previous mitigation numbers?  I could only find one note where Heavy was increased by 11 %, and light was increased by 35 % from the previous numbers.  I'd hope that this would mean someone who previously had 10 % mitigation with heavy armor would have 11.1 % mitigation, but can't be sure.
 
2.  What is the new cap?  I know I can personally raise my defense by 30+ with my own abilities.  Will my buffs be trivialized, because a support class with a different tank class that doesn't have our Def buffs can put them over the cap. 
 
3.  So my defense stance is now going to be worthless?
 
4.  Why can't we have things scale based on your level?  For example if I'm 50 with the defense of a 52 I get the full defense bonus, however, if I have the defense of a 54 I only really have the defense of a 53 as far as effectiveness goes.  Maybe if I had the defense of a level 60 it would only work as well as if I was a 55 with no buffs.  You make everything else scale like this (even if you should be rewarded for breaking hard to reach thresholds), why not add Defense to the list instead of capping it out?  We could always just cap all skills at 255 (just some generic number).
 
5.  What if I wear 5 pieces of heavy armor and 2 pieces of very light armor?  How does that chance my avoidence?
 
 
I'm tired and just finished a term paper so I might not be all there, but there it is.  Just discuss or something ;p =/
 
 
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Old 04-14-2005, 09:02 PM   #20
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whats going to be the point of a guardian? we chose to give up damage output for superiour damage avoidance and mitigation right? with caps on skills, caps on mitigation and 1% better block with kite shield?
 
What a pile of ****, we have nothing that differentiates our class at the moment as it is. Raise the defensive ability caps over other classes as we are SUPPOSED to be a defensive orientated class, all we are now is a zerker with crap dps...
 
 
 
 
Meat shields need love too SMILEY
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Old 04-14-2005, 10:21 PM   #21
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No point in getting upset or worried about how guardians will perform until we actually see some data.  I am taking a wait and see attitude.  *If* things go to hell in a handbasket with these changes, well, my guard is also a craftsman  SMILEY
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Old 04-14-2005, 10:30 PM   #22
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Venomous wrote:
whats going to be the point of a guardian? we chose to give up damage output for superiour damage avoidance and mitigation right? with caps on skills, caps on mitigation and 1% better block with kite shield?
 
What a pile of ****, we have nothing that differentiates our class at the moment as it is. Raise the defensive ability caps over other classes as we are SUPPOSED to be a defensive orientated class, all we are now is a zerker with crap dps...
 
 
 
 
Meat shields need love too SMILEY



hrm that is something to think on.  With a def cap and no buffing parry....that means (potentially) any zerker can reach the abilities of a guard.  Can a zerker wear a Tower shield as well?  I haven't checked on that. 
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Old 04-14-2005, 10:33 PM   #23
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Yes, they can. So now, we're Zerkers with no DPS.
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Old 04-14-2005, 10:44 PM   #24
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kr8ztwin wrote:


Venomous wrote:
whats going to be the point of a guardian? we chose to give up damage output for superiour damage avoidance and mitigation right? with caps on skills, caps on mitigation and 1% better block with kite shield?
 
What a pile of ****, we have nothing that differentiates our class at the moment as it is. Raise the defensive ability caps over other classes as we are SUPPOSED to be a defensive orientated class, all we are now is a zerker with crap dps...
 
 
 
 
Meat shields need love too SMILEY



hrm that is something to think on.  With a def cap and no buffing parry....that means (potentially) any zerker can reach the abilities of a guard.  Can a zerker wear a Tower shield as well?  I haven't checked on that. 

Actually, on paper, it looks like with all these caps, anyone that can hit the cap will tank equally.  Even a scout?

Depending on where the cap is, anyone with the equipment/buffs from whatever class will be able to hit the caps.  If you can hit the caps, you are equal.

The guardian will have a advantage in groups without classes that have heavy buffs, as we can buff ourselves.    I wonder if we can buff ourselves to the defense cap?

The guardian advantage was getting defense higher then any other class.   That advantage appears to be gone, as potantially anyone can hit the cap with the right buffs/equipment. 

But, who knows without seeing whats going on with where the caps are?

Its not just the guardian class, there are alot of classes with buffs, etc.  Characters tuned to be STR or AGI or whatever, etc.

I dont know, I must say, with their track record on patches so far and lack of testing...   Well, I think there is a very good chance theyre going to bust things up so bad it will take months to get it all straightened out...

If the combat system is so broken after all the beta and 6 months live, all the changes to how AC functions and  is displayed, agility nerfs, broken skills, etc.   After all this time and testing, they feel its so broken that it must be totally revamped..

 How is it going to fair when they throw this "revamp" out on live,  after a couple weeks on that so called test server?

I do not want to cry the sky is falling and dwell too much on it, with so little available information that we have.  

 But, ermm..  dunno...

 

If this thing goes live and everything is hunky dory, (the game as a whole, not just the guardian class) it will definatley be a miracle, heh.  

 

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Old 04-14-2005, 11:46 PM   #25
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The new Uber raid tank template... Guardians in light armor with Tower Shields.  If our mitigation buffs let us hit the caps without having heavy armor, then you can still get all the avoidance of the monks by wearing light armor.  Our buffs should also still make us the hitpoint king. My prediction, Gage will be even more jealous SMILEY
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Old 04-15-2005, 01:02 AM   #26
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Ok, now that would be hilarious.
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Old 04-15-2005, 01:43 AM   #27
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Arsenal wrote:
The new Uber raid tank template...

Guardians in light armor with Tower Shields.  If our mitigation buffs let us hit the caps without having heavy armor, then you can still get all the avoidance of the monks by wearing light armor.  Our buffs should also still make us the hitpoint king.

My prediction, Gage will be even more jealous SMILEY

All they have to do to is ensure that your buffs do *not* let you hit the cap while wearing light armor.
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Old 04-15-2005, 02:31 AM   #28
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Gage-Mikel wrote: All they have to do to is ensure that your buffs do *not* let you hit the cap while wearing light armor.

Well, to be more precise, they should not cap mitigation values at an absolute number, but at a number that is in addition to your base armor numbers.  If they use one abolute number for all armor types, then especially in a raid situation where you should be able to hit the caps (relatively) easily, then you would want to reduce your armor type for the increased avoidance.  Same goes for avoidance of course, but that one seems like it might be trickier because it had more variables.  If they leave the caps at absolute values where a good raid group would be able to hit both the mitigation and avoidance caps with a given fighter class - that is kind of silly and it will basically create the same situation that we have now. The devil is all in the details though - Moorgard's post is so vague that it raises more questions than it answers. Plus, and I don't know how they manage to always due this, but EVERY single class in the game will read that post and think they are being nerfed.  They need to better explain the changes that are occuring in the new system as compared to the way it works in the old system so that people understand their motivations and have a better appreciation for the results.  Ie.  I think they are buffing shield effectiveness overall, but it is hard to tell for sure and since they are obliterating everyone's parry buffs, most people see it as a nerf.
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Old 04-15-2005, 02:34 AM   #29
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Geothe wrote:

Personally.

I think there should be more of a difference between kite and tower shields.  Like 20% for Kite, 25% for tower, or something along those lines.  1% seems rather idiotic.

Also, losing the +parry buffs are going to hurt... but, maybe they will replace the +parry with +mitigation or something like that.

 

If any of you guys have high level Guards on test.. now would be a great time to share the actual affects. hehe




If that happens then the Pally/SK will be in serious trouble due to the fact WE CAN NOT USE TOWERS.

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Old 04-15-2005, 06:01 AM   #30
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Margen wrote:


Geothe wrote:

Personally.

I think there should be more of a difference between kite and tower shields.  Like 20% for Kite, 25% for tower, or something along those lines.  1% seems rather idiotic.

Also, losing the +parry buffs are going to hurt... but, maybe they will replace the +parry with +mitigation or something like that.

 

If any of you guys have high level Guards on test.. now would be a great time to share the actual affects. hehe




If that happens then the Pally/SK will be in serious trouble due to the fact WE CAN NOT USE TOWERS.

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  That is the whole point of different classes. We cannot heal yet you want things to be the basically the same. This is the same kind of talk that gets everyone upset. Balance is a variable that takes EVERYTHING into account. Tower shields should give more then 1%, because, as it is now, everyone that doesn't have a Tower Shield of Woe should just use the SBS kite shield since it is only ~100 less AC then the other shields and procs a stun that is far more useful.

   Try to look at the whole picture instead of just these selfish views that only affect your class. The day a shield smaller then another by greater then 1% in size only loses 1% effectiveness is the day when 2 + 2 = 5.

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