EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

 

Go Back   EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire > EverQuest II > Class Discussion > Fighter's Arena > Guardian
Members List Search Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-22-2005, 02:14 AM   #1
Moontayle

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 167
Default

 
I thought it was interesting that fully buffed I had a bit over 60% avoidance from same level mobs.
 
Edit: And personally I think the avoidance # is a crock of balogna. I generally have a pretty hard fight against even level solo mobs where they take up to 50% of my health and through the fight I certainly don't outright avoid damage 60% of the time (Should average out to that after 25 or so fights). I'd have to do some parsing to be completely sure but if 60% is the true number then I'd hate to think of the beating I'd get without it. Oye.

Message Edited by Moontayle on 03-21-2005 03:17 PM

__________________
Regards,
Trayson, Guardian of Gnomish Marine Corps
Writer in Progress
Current Project: Daryn. 21k written out of 100k planned.
Moontayle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2005, 02:51 AM   #2
mauiwuchild

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 33
Default



Moontayle wrote:
 
I thought it was interesting that fully buffed I had a bit over 60% avoidance from same level mobs.
 
Edit: And personally I think the avoidance # is a crock of balogna. I generally have a pretty hard fight against even level solo mobs where they take up to 50% of my health and through the fight I certainly don't outright avoid damage 60% of the time (Should average out to that after 25 or so fights). I'd have to do some parsing to be completely sure but if 60% is the true number then I'd hate to think of the beating I'd get without it. Oye.

Message Edited by Moontayle on 03-21-2005 03:17 PM


It's all speculation unless you have parses of logs
 
which I'd love to see

Message Edited by mauiwuchild on 03-21-2005 01:53 PM

__________________
Maui Wuchild
mauiwuchild is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2005, 03:12 AM   #3
Arsen

 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 158
Default

The avoidance number also does not change at all based on your Defense skill.  As we all know, this is a huge factor in how many misses we get.  Not sure how useful those numbers are at all.
__________________

Let's keep the discussion out of the realm of the absurd. - SOELegal
Arsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2005, 03:25 AM   #4
Napolle

 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 126
Default

my mitigaiton is liek 2.3k... with 57.6% avoid
Napolle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2005, 03:25 AM   #5
Moontayle

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 167
Default

Actually, my avoidance # went up 2% from self buffs whereas my mitigation didn't go up at all.
__________________
Regards,
Trayson, Guardian of Gnomish Marine Corps
Writer in Progress
Current Project: Daryn. 21k written out of 100k planned.
Moontayle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2005, 04:18 AM   #6
Chanliang

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 198
Default

as a mystic my +3 defence buff added 0.4% of avoidance...
Chanliang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2005, 04:23 AM   #7
Mouadieb

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 73
Default

my Mid is almost 1600 at 28.93 and my avoidance is 64.3 % so it says. That is with self buffs
Mouadieb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2005, 04:25 AM   #8
ThramFalc

 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 209
Default

The avoidance number underweights defense and parry skills because it reflects the benefit against an even con enemy.  Our skills have the largest affect when they effectively make greens or blues go gray.  Against a red con, defense will have a small benefit.  Against a green con, defense can render the mob useless. 

Its the level disparity that makes defense so great and the avoidance number just doesn't reflect that as its currently set up.  Its still one of our most important skills... just less so against higher con mobs.

ThramFalc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2005, 04:56 AM   #9
shilo

 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 51
Default

ok i must be an idiot or just not have a clue, but I made it to 40 ok. But where exactly do you see this defense stat you are all talking about? I see, well I used to see, AC and that is about all I had to go on as far as defense...against melee anyway. any help would be appreciated
shilo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2005, 06:20 AM   #10
Morriz

 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 83
Default

Press L to see a list of your skills/your current skill leve/your max skill level.
__________________
Malkerith - Oasis's First Qeynosian Dark Elf Guardian.
Morrizar - Oasis's First Dark Elf Monk - Level 36 and Retired.

Guild Leader of Angelic Descent
GMT+10 Australasian Timezone Guild
Morriz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2005, 06:36 AM   #11
TunaBoo

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,507
Default

Hit L to see defense.. mroe defense = more avoidance, it is the guardian form of deflection buffs.
__________________

www.spiralguild.com
TunaBoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2005, 07:29 AM   #12
Gaige

Loremaster
Gaige's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Arizona
Posts: 9,500
Default



TunaBoo wrote:
Hit L to see defense.. mroe defense = more avoidance, it is the guardian form of deflection buffs.


Which totally undermines the brawler class.
__________________
Gaige is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2005, 07:38 AM   #13
OgApostrap

 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 147
Default

This is a bit [Removed for Content].. you guardians have double my mitigationa nd only like 10% or less avoidance.. 29.. that 28.9 guard beat me bad SMILEY Hes the one I refer to..
OgApostrap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2005, 07:59 AM   #14
English Da Gua

 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 203
Default

  You realize he said he was self buffed. Heck I can add ~400 to my mitigation and over 7% to avoidance self buffed. Make sure you compare your numbers with his when he isn't buffed so it is apples to apples.

   I mean with a shield and self buffed I am basically 70% avoidance. That's from ~57% when not buffed and no shield.

 

English Da Gua is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2005, 08:05 AM   #15
Gaige

Loremaster
Gaige's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Arizona
Posts: 9,500
Default



English Da Guard wrote:

    I mean with a shield and self buffed I am basically 70% avoidance. That's from ~57% when not buffed and no shield.


Heh, I'm only at 75.6% or so self-buffed, with about 1775 mitigation.

I guess we aren't as avoidance oriented as is implied, eh?

__________________
Gaige is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2005, 08:08 AM   #16
RafaelSmith

Loremaster
RafaelSmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,808
Default

These numbers really are starting to depress me. At level 38 my mitigation shows something around 1800ish....when holding the mouse cursor over it it says i mitigate 49%.   That seems low. My Girlfriends level 38 Fury shows mitigation of around 1500ish....when holdin the mous cursor over it say she mitigate 40%... So my extra mitigation, heavy armor nets me a whole 9% extra mitigation? My avoidance is much higher than i expected... So in essense I am a avoidance tank way before I am a mitigation tank.
__________________
RafaelSmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2005, 08:27 AM   #17
TunaBoo

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,507
Default

Selff buffed I avoid 68% mitigate 73% (with uebr gear)
__________________

www.spiralguild.com
TunaBoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2005, 09:21 AM   #18
Sazzabi8

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 68
Default

I was showing 100% avoidance raid buffed today, with around 4300 mitigation at the highest.
__________________
Sazzabi




Innothule
Sazzabi8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2005, 10:44 AM   #19
ThramFalc

 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 209
Default

If you add about 30 def from various sources, avoidance makes a huge jump into the 90% area.  This confirms that defensive effects are magnified depending on the level of the opponent.  With enough defense you can turn an even con opponent effectively gray thus the huge jump.  Before 30ish (havent tested for the exact number) the jump is only a few %.

Add enough defense and even yellows can't hit you...

ThramFalc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2005, 08:11 PM   #20
Gilgal

 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 19
Default


ThramFalcox wrote:

If you add about 30 def from various sources, avoidance makes a huge jump into the 90% area.  This confirms that defensive effects are magnified depending on the level of the opponent.  With enough defense you can turn an even con opponent effectively gray thus the huge jump.  Before 30ish (havent tested for the exact number) the jump is only a few %.

Add enough defense and even yellows can't hit you...


Is it just me or does anyone else think the above sounds like a bug?  Defense modifies avoidance?
__________________
------------------------------------------------------------
-- Gilgalon

Vrathis 50th level Iksar Guardian
Black Talons
Najena Server
Gilgal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2005, 08:28 PM   #21
Belgor

 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 180
Default



Gilgalon wrote:


ThramFalcox wrote:

If you add about 30 def from various sources, avoidance makes a huge jump into the 90% area.  This confirms that defensive effects are magnified depending on the level of the opponent.  With enough defense you can turn an even con opponent effectively gray thus the huge jump.  Before 30ish (havent tested for the exact number) the jump is only a few %.

Add enough defense and even yellows can't hit you...




Is it just me or does anyone else think the above sounds like a bug?  Defense modifies avoidance?


Well, stacking buffs for the defense-skill has been around since launch, and it is the best form of protection, since you can get it to 100% and thus never get hit.
If it was meant to be this way or not noone really knows I guess.
Belgor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2005, 08:39 PM   #22
Banditman

Loremaster
Banditman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,459
Default

Also keep in mind that your Avoidance and Mitigation numbers do NOT address Arcane damage.

I "suspect" that they don't address Combat Abilities either, but I'd have to parse it to prove it, and I've not done that yet.

__________________
Banditman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2005, 12:11 AM   #23
Gaige

Loremaster
Gaige's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Arizona
Posts: 9,500
Default



Belgorim wrote:
Well, stacking buffs for the defense-skill has been around since launch, and it is the best form of protection, since you can get it to 100% and thus never get hit.
If it was meant to be this way or not noone really knows I guess.


Funny, when agility did that for us, we got nerfed.  We were trivializing content and the plate tanks were [Removed for Content] that we "never got hit".

So now that we can't do it, a guardian comes out and says they've been doing it since launch, as its the "best form of protection."?

How about you use your mitigation as intended, and leave the avoidance to us.

This has to be changed.

__________________
Gaige is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2005, 02:00 AM   #24
Aren

 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 88
Default

Self buffed I have 2400 mitigation and 66% avoidance, Raid buffed avoidance gets up around 69% and Mitigation aroung 3300 I think
 
This is at level 46.9 Guardian
 
We had a 46 Monk Raid buffed to 100% Avoidance.
 
But remember this avoidance doesn't apply to spells and skills
 
That is the Chance to avoid regular melee attacks
 
The specials are what kill ya.
__________________
Aren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2005, 02:13 AM   #25
IvarIronhea

 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 25
Default

Gage -

A guardian can self buff ~23 defense higher. Gangstafist posted in one of these earlier threads he could self buff defense ~20 higher.

Bare in mind, Noah was the one who posted the 23 self buff number, which means all adept 3s possibly master 1s for the buffs. By this logic, with the right buffs from all the approriate classes, you can reach the same levels of defense skill as a guardian. This is also supported by the fact that Jezekiell(a bruiser) reached the same defense skill as the guardian on one of their earlier raids, 288 skill.

In your constant, blind crusade to get guardians nerfed, you are basically calling for a nerf on all tank classes.

I'd also like to point out the only useful information I've found so far was posted by Jezekiell in the bruiser forums. Raw unbuffed numbers from a bruiser and guardian with similar(rare crafted) gear. The bruiser mitigates 37.7% and avoids 76.8%. The guardian mitigates 49.9% and avoids 56.1%.

Tell me why I don't see this mitigate double avoid 10% less number you monks with an agenda seem to be squealing about when you gripe about guardians.

Basically, you have yet to back your arguments up except perception and heresay. No hard numbers, just a constant stream of one line posts full of bitterness, rumor and flamebait.

IvarIronhea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2005, 02:16 AM   #26
Gaige

Loremaster
Gaige's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Arizona
Posts: 9,500
Default



IvarIronheart wrote:

Gage -

A guardian can self buff ~23 defense higher. Gangstafist posted in one of these earlier threads he could self buff defense ~20 higher.

Bare in mind, Noah was the one who posted the 23 self buff number, which means all adept 3s possibly master 1s for the buffs. By this logic, with the right buffs from all the approriate classes, you can reach the same levels of defense skill as a guardian. This is also supported by the fact that Jezekiell(a bruiser) reached the same defense skill as the guardian on one of their earlier raids, 288 skill.

In your constant, blind crusade to get guardians nerfed, you are basically calling for a nerf on all tank classes.

I'd also like to point out the only useful information I've found so far was posted by Jezekiell in the bruiser forums. Raw unbuffed numbers from a bruiser and guardian with similar(rare crafted) gear. The bruiser mitigates 37.7% and avoids 76.8%. The guardian mitigates 49.9% and avoids 56.1%.

Tell me why I don't see this mitigate double avoid 10% less number you monks with an agenda seem to be squealing about when you gripe about guardians.

Basically, you have yet to back your arguments up except perception and heresay. No hard numbers, just a constant stream of one line posts full of bitterness, rumor and flamebait.



No, please do not misread me.  If being able to buff the defense skill can make players unhittable to yellows or higher, then it needs to be changed.

That isn't good for the game, on any level and its why agility was changed.

I don't know how Gangster got his up by 20, I can get mine up by 15 with spider stance (265 defense/deflection).

__________________
Gaige is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2005, 02:25 AM   #27
Wasuna

Loremaster
Wasuna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,222
Default

A 100% avoidance rating is for a even con solo mob. Group and raid mobs are toughter and anything higher level is tougher. Lets not all jump on our bankwagons again. If a Guardian can get to 100% then a monk can get higher if that is allowed.
__________________
The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Wasuna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2005, 02:28 AM   #28
ugl

 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 230
Default

ugh

Message Edited by uglak on 03-22-200504:55 PM

Message Edited by uglak on 03-22-2005 04:55 PM

ugl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2005, 02:40 AM   #29
SageMarrow

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 958
Default

Agility wasnt changed to make monks not tank as well, it was so that scouts couldnt tank PERIOD.
 
thats why agility was nerfed, they couldve easily made mobs stronger to hit us brawler types more often and voila balance between avoidance tanking and mitigations tanking. 
 
while this was merely a side effect of the agility nerf, which is why i said long time ago that they are going to have to adjust the system if they want to achieve the same level of balance again.  Deflection/mitigation will never equal mitigation in consistency and fluidity to an extent that mitigation/avoidance does.
 
In a guardian its not just the mitigation, its the combination of the two that makes them **seem** invincible or at least powered to the point of making a raid (NOT HARD). defense is the modifier for guardians avoidance. while deflection is ours. while we can still get our avoidance at level 50 to 100%...  there is still the issue of scaling.  that means 100% avoidance in comparison to another level 50 mob, without having any mob modifiers such as ^^'s or named, or x4's. etc. so when you add in 
 
level 54^^^epicx4.  this is where the mitigation shines.
 
just because a guardian can achieve those numbers in raid doesnt mean that he can solo or even 6 man a raid mob. it still takes all 24/20 or so people to achieve the desired result.
 
the buffs just stack in thier favor, as to in *essence* make a guardian doing the tanking, stronger in **essence** than the raid mob itself since they provide defense exclusively.  maybe if they made the buff stacking include deflection in thier stacking then maybe that would work, but i doubt they would do that on our behalf strictly.  and even still, there is no way to determine what is enough as opposed to not enough.. so if we can get our deflection to 290 and our defense to 288... maybe we will get hit, and maybe we wont. maybe it still wont be enough - heh wont know till it happened.
SageMarrow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2005, 11:45 AM   #30
Wulfe

 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 82
Default

After some fast testing last night I am not sure our shielding skills work as intended. If you look at the descriptions in skills like Do or Die or Vigilance, they should increase the avoidance of the target by 35% and 38% (app4 and adept1 I have) but when casted on someone in the group they only saw minimal of 1-1,5 % increase in their avoidance stat???
 
Like I said, this was just quick test while exping but it left me wondering what exactly is this skill supposed to be increasing?...
 
 
Wulfeen 48 Guardian
Wulfe is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:19 AM.

vBulletin skin by: CompleteGFX.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All threads and posts originally from the EQ2 and Station forums operated by Sony Online Entertainment. Their use is by express written permission.