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Old 03-23-2005, 08:56 PM   #31
RafaelSmith

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Wulfeen wrote:
After some fast testing last night I am not sure our shielding skills work as intended. If you look at the descriptions in skills like Do or Die or Vigilance, they should increase the avoidance of the target by 35% and 38% (app4 and adept1 I have) but when casted on someone in the group they only saw minimal of 1-1,5 % increase in their avoidance stat???
 
Like I said, this was just quick test while exping but it left me wondering what exactly is this skill supposed to be increasing?...
 
 
Wulfeen 48 Guardian

I played around briefly with these buffs the other night and from what I can tell the buffs that have a "....increase targets avoidance by xx%" are not applying that part of the buff.  The only increase that others see in their Avoidance comes from the +Defense our buffs give them. If my math is correct a increase of 35% to lets say someone with avoidance off 50% should increase their displayed avoidance by 17.5%   (35% of 50% is 17.5%) Being able to increase someones avoidance by 17% would actually be noticable and worth doing.
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Old 03-23-2005, 11:15 PM   #32
Sunth

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Wish I got invis and FD like monks do.

How do you balance those things against the no utility pure tank that my guardian is?

My avoidance is around 64% with buffs and shield. With Mitigation around 1850 at 36.

Also my agility is higher than my strength... if I could get equipment that raised my AC and included STR my Avoidance probably wouldn't be so high.

Message Edited by Sunthas on 03-23-2005 10:17 AM

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Old 03-23-2005, 11:58 PM   #33
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Hmm, not sure it matters, but I did some quick tests on buffs for everyone to get info from.


Unbuffed 38 Guardian wearing average gear (as profiled on EQ2Players)
2896 HP
1814 Mitigation
61.1% Avoidance
601 ATK


Buffs
Do or Die (app1) 
increased Avoidance by .6%
increased HP by 239

Call to Battle (app1)
increased avoidance by .1%
increased ATK by 12

Iron Will (app4)
increased HP by 147

Battle Tactics (Adept1)
Increase HP by 186

Call to Battle (app3)
increased avoidance by .8%

Rally Cry (adept1)
increased Mitigation by  84

Soldiers Stance (adept1)
increased avoidance by .7%
decreased ATK by 8

Hunker Down
increased avoidance by .8%

Battle Cry (adept1)
increased Migtigation by 162

Hold The Line (app4)
no effect on numbers

Dig In (Adept1)
decreased ATK by 11
increased Mitigation by 80
increased Avoidance by .8%

Guardians Call (adept1)
increased avoidance by .1%
increased ATK by 12

 

A stack of buffs as below increased to
3469  HP
1978  Mitigation
62.6% Avoidance
601  ATK


Buffs used for stack
Do or Die
Battle Tactics
Guardian's Call
Call of Command
Iron Will
Dig In
Call to Battle
Rally Cry

 

From all of these numbers I would have to say that Guardians are definitely gear towards an HP/Mitigation standpoint as these are the biggest increase we have for our own buffs.  If we have a 62% chance of avoidance, it would be interesting to see what groups buffs from the agility class of tanks might do to us.

 

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Old 03-24-2005, 05:12 AM   #34
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Even though Gage is a troll with a seemingly godly amount of free time to instantly respond to threads across the whole forum in a condescending way...... he does have a point. 
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Old 03-24-2005, 06:45 AM   #35
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There is a simple fix, all they need to do is change Defense from adding to avoidance, and convert it into Mitigation, if that isnt enough, remove some agility from Plate Armor and compensate for that with increased Mitigation values on the armor itself. Then there is no need for game breaking revamps and crazy adjustments that will change the entire way we have played the last 5 months.

Oh, and FIX COMBAT ARTS, ABILITIES AND SPELLS so they are working and operating as intended, with out the buff stacking.

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Old 03-24-2005, 07:10 AM   #36
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Well based on the numbers you provided
 

"I'd also like to point out the only useful information I've found so far was posted by Jezekiell in the bruiser forums. Raw unbuffed numbers from a bruiser and guardian with similar(rare crafted) gear. The bruiser mitigates 37.7% and avoids 76.8%. The guardian mitigates 49.9% and avoids 56.1%."

Out of ten chances to hit, with each hit doing 100 damage for example, the guardian would take 219.9 damage and the bruiser would sustain 144.5 damage. 

My unbuffed values are 44.4% mitigation and 57% avoidance.

 

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Old 03-24-2005, 03:15 PM   #37
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The issue with defense is that at some point it hits a hard cap and mobs stop hitting you.  I can buff and buff and it barely adds 2%, but once my warden friend casts duststorm sending me over the cap for even cons, my avoidance jumps 30%.  For yellow cons its still closer to 60%, but add another buff or two and even that goes up to 90%+.

The hard cap is based around the idea that a mob 6 levels below you should be trivial.  A mob 6 levels above you should be impossible.  All the skill buffs and debuffs wreak havoc on this system.  If I add 30 defense I am effectively 6 levels higher than an even con, hence the huge jump in avoidance.  They should just remove this 6 level premise they are working with and make mob effectiveness change more gradually.

All they need to do to fix defense is smooth the curve out... instead of avoidance of 60% (+0def), 61% (+10def), 62% (+20def), 90% (+30def), make it 50%, 57%, 65%, 75% etc.  I don't think its a big deal that defense adds to avoidance.  As long as we aren't hitting the hard cap, brawlers out avoid us.  They just need to remove the hard cap and increase the incrimental benefit so it still has some use.

If they overreact and nerf defense entirely then everyone is screwed.  Changing defense to affect mitigation is also not the answer... it makes no sense logically and just seems to be too drastic a response anyways.  We mitigate based on the armor.. whats the defense skill gonna do? give us thicker skin?

Also, our defense buffs are for the group so anyone can reap the rewards. 

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Old 03-25-2005, 01:00 AM   #38
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I'm a 36sk and I'd love to see these numbers in avoidance and mit.  I've seen INQ with feySTEEL with 2k mit/51%avo.  Mine is in the 1500's/63.9% and I've got very slighty above avarage gear...guard of grumm, prist. feyiron vanguard, and some nice jewelry pieces...lotta quest and dropped item I've found.  I'm looking at a paladin right now who has like 20 points more in mit, but 12% less in avoidance.  I feel like there has to be something in the buffs/skills that aren't working.  I'm not expecting my numbers to be like my INQ friend at 2k, but I feel like I should be a bit closer to the numbers you've posted here.  I also see spell/skill stat increases equal to or LESS then the ones you've posted here.  I think I buffed the day of patch and saw a decrease in my avoidance...but that wasn't the case the next day.  I had no idea this change was comming and I can't say I'm happy with it so far.  People I was on par with AC wise seemed to get a big margin in their mit number over mine even in similar gear...but I'm wondering if it's really class specific.
 
 
 
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Old 03-25-2005, 01:33 AM   #39
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ThramFalcox wrote:

If they overreact and nerf defense entirely then everyone is screwed.  Changing defense to affect mitigation is also not the answer... it makes no sense logically and just seems to be too drastic a response anyways.  We mitigate based on the armor.. whats the defense skill gonna do? give us thicker skin?

Also, our defense buffs are for the group so anyone can reap the rewards. 



The problem was they increased the mitigation 30% on leather armor not too long ago, what they should have done is adjusted the brawler avoidance formula instead. That wouldn't fix our current issue with defense but it would have been a better direction.
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Old 03-25-2005, 03:03 AM   #40
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Sunthas wrote:

The problem was they increased the mitigation 30% on leather armor not too long ago, what they should have done is adjusted the brawler avoidance formula instead. That wouldn't fix our current issue with defense but it would have been a better direction.



Thank you!  This is the problem with the entire concept of cross class tanking right now.   Plain and simple, plate tanks should be able to TAKE the damage either through mitigation or similar methods but will get hit.   Leather/Cloth tanks should be able to AVOID the damage and not be hit, but will take major damage if they are hit.   I don't see whats so hard about designing this concept and I dont see why its so hard for so many people to understand.
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Old 03-25-2005, 03:15 AM   #41
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the hard part for gaurdians to understand is why would we waste the time asking for it when it still wont be preffered or as good... when currently we can tank just fine 1-50 with the issues that stand at present,

thats whats so hard to understand.  no matter what - consistency is always better than inconsistency. even in real life.

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Old 03-25-2005, 04:00 AM   #42
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A change in only defense will totally screw up high end raid combat. And I bet they won't test this either to make sure it doesn't.
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Old 03-25-2005, 04:47 AM   #43
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Avoidance for Brawlers and Mitigation for other tanks seem to work fine relative to each other.  There is another thread on this board that shows the differences between the classes are just as they should be.  The problem some brawlers are having is that some heavy armor tanks can increase their avoidance to 100% in groups.  Mind you this is against even cons, but its still an issue.  This only happens when the hard cap for a mob's attack rating is hit.  If defense doesn't get to that point (and it takes 2 or 3 classes in a group to get there mind you) then everything will work as it should.

It really is a very minor issue and they need to not overreact.  Just scale the defense effects on avoidance better so we don't jump from 60% to 90%.  I don't want +50 defense to be meaningless... but it shouldn't provide 100% avoidance.  Maybe 90% (it does take 4 or 5 classes to add that much).  Just have defense effects scale linearly and not as they currently do... problem solved.

This will make smaller defense buffs more noticable and larger amounts less noticible but it will all be linear and it will be real easy to keep track of.  Becuase this involves the scrapping of the +-6 levels where mobs are a good match for you thing, it may involve a lot more reprogramming than I am thinking, but it seems to me this setup will be scrapped someday anyways.

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Old 03-25-2005, 05:54 AM   #44
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I'm afraid of the nerf bat.

I have monk envy.

 

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Old 03-25-2005, 06:05 AM   #45
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be afraid, be very afraid...
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