EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

 

Go Back   EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire > EverQuest II > Altar of Malice Beta > General Beta Discussion (AoM Beta)
Members List Search Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-21-2014, 04:05 AM   #1
Achirin

Member
Achirin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

I've commented on this in other locations but so far have not seen any answers. Even other players don't comment on the fact. If anyone has any insight please fill me in.

Mob HP so far seems hugely inflated. Since it's been mentioned this expansion will not be a big increase in player power I don't understand why it's been a huge increase in Mob power. Examples:

Regular trash on Isle: Level 96, 2.5 mil damage taken before dying.
Cobalt Scar Trash: Level 96 750k damage taken.

Brokenskull Bay trash: Level 96 ^, 8 mil damage taken.
Cobalt Scar Trash: Level 96 ^ 937k damage taken.

A Qeynos Agent: Level 101 ^, 39 mil damage taken.
Falinpol Sentinel: Level 101 ^, 1 mil damage taken.

If we're going to see a huge increase in DPS with gear that's fine, but in order to test and ensure the gear gives this kind of DPS increase we need it in the beta sooner than later.
Achirin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2014, 04:08 AM   #2
ruthless619

New Member
ruthless619's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default


LOL Your joking right? I burn down those mobs in Brokenskull pretty fast aka under 12 secs....
ruthless619 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2014, 05:46 AM   #3
Cisteros

Active Member
Cisteros's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

Cobalt Scar is pre-ToV at least (I can't remember if it was released before CoE or if it was a middle of the year addition), so your comparison isn't even a relevant one since the ToV gear change kicked player power up into the stratosphere relative to what it had been previously
Cisteros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2014, 04:23 PM   #4
Arieste

Well-Known Member
Arieste's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 1
Default

Well, let's examine this. For sake of argument, forget how much HP it has.

So this mob is a questline / lore relevant mini-boss. You've been doing countless quests and finally you confront your arch-enemy - the opposing agent.

How long do you think the fight SHOULD take for...

...a T1 DPS class?
...a medium dmg class?
...a low dmg class?

Just give your opinion. Like, should it be instantly dead in 1 second? in 5 seconds? Should it last maybe 30 seconds? Should it be a 20 minute marathon? And how long did it last you?
Arieste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2014, 04:28 PM   #5
membrainophones

New Member
membrainophones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

did you notice the buff on the agent that says it cannot be killed? not all of them have it but some do i did the solo last night with a friend and 4 of them spawned 3 died pretty much instantly the last one would not go down and then we noticed it had the unkillable buff so just evaced
membrainophones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2014, 05:04 PM   #6
Matia

New Member
Matia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

Same level and so forth should be the same strength/difficulty (within a certain range of course). Mobs that are 95^ should be about as tough as any other 95^. Mobs that are 100^^ should be around the same difficulty as others. Which expansion they are in is meaningless. Otherwise it totally negates any ability for a player to be able to gauge what they can and cannot face with a reasonable expectation of survival or not.
Matia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2014, 05:25 PM   #7
Borb

Member
Borb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

so mobs from CoE should have been the same difficulty as mobs from ToV? that doesnt really make sense, look at how much more powerful the gear from ToV was, the mobs would have been sliced through like butter if they stuck with that reasoning.

what people do not realize, there is no gear from AoM yet, when the gear gets released and people start gearing up in the new stuff, then yes, these mobs are going to be easier. things are always tough at first when using a previous expansions gear, in the new content. it has always been like this.

SoE doesnt want people to just log over to the beta servers, look at the gear, then not log back over to it, like has been done in the past.

did they go about this the right way by not adding in the gear yet? probably not. it is extremely hard to judge how difficult mobs really will be when we do not have the correct level gear to use. by the time they do release the gear to us and we get geared up for the appropriate levels, we very well could find that some of these mobs are too easy and they will have to readjust them, again.
Borb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2014, 05:45 PM   #8
Matia

New Member
Matia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

It actually makes perfect sense. When my level xx character looks and sees a level yy mob, I should right then be able to reasonably judge the difficulty. Not, "well, it is yy level, but it is in -blah- zone, from -yadda- expansion, so therefore even though I have been taking out mobs of equivalent level, for this one I need to first go to this other place and grind through gear for no logical reason".

The tactics and strategy might change. Maybe those newer mobs might have a different ability, maybe they have some other new trick up their sleeve. But just saying "well, we're going to be lazy just raise hp on the next expansion rather than planning ahead"... not so much.
Yes, gear matters. But put the new gear on the mobs appropriately and scaling. Don't just raise their hp by a factor of 10 and then say "well it'll be okay when you get newer gear". Especially when many times some of these mobs have been described by the devs as "intended for a level xx equipped with existing gear".
Matia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2014, 06:07 PM   #9
Arieste

Well-Known Member
Arieste's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 1
Default

Yes, it SHOULD work that way. But it hasn't worked like that in EQ2 for almost its entire lifespan. The thing is that that every expansion (some more drastically than others) changes the overall power of characters of all levels. And short redesigning every mob from the past 10 years to conform with new mechanics, there is no good way to adjust past content. At least not in any viable way. Every few years developers go back to earlier zones and update the mobs there to be in line with current mechanics.

A level 50 heroic mob introduced with the game 10 years ago was designed to be fought by a character with 0 AAs, gear with no stat bonuses and likely very few master spells. A level 50 heroic introduced today will be designed for characters with 100ish AAs and much better gear. If it's not, then the game will just be stupidly easy and lack any challenge whatsoever. Eventually that original level 50 mob will get updated - or depending on the nature of the mechanic shift, it might not.

On top of that, the specific mob you're talking about is a quest mob. Quest mobs have always been unique in terms of abilities and difficulty - the idea is that if you got through the first steps (the first like 30 quests of the questline in this case) that you will be ready for the difficulty.

I do agree with you that the con system in EQ2 has become largely irrelevant. I was just thinking about the same thing as I was (solo) simultanelously slaughtering several groups of HEROIC tagged mobs in the solo zone on the signature questline. Really, they shouln't have been tagged heroic. They should have been tagged solo. I mean, they were mobs designed to be done solo and they were in a solo zone, why are they a "heroic" encounter? The quest that lead me there was also tagged "heroic" in the journal. It was a lucky thing that i went in to check it out anyway, because many a person would see the "heroic" tag and then put off the quest until they found a group for it. Especially the less experienced/skilled players.

So I agree with you that the con system as a whole can use improvement and more consistent execution in its design. I think that somewhere along the line solo/heroic/epic tags just came to mean "these are the types of spells you can cast on the mob" and stopped meaning "this is meant for solo/group/raid" (how else you explain all those X2 epic mobs that you can ONLY fight with a single group?).

The item tagging system - treasured / legendary / fabled - also doesn't mean anything anymore. You get random items from random things with some of these tags and they all vary in power. (ex. treasured, which i don't think you even get anymore).

But none of this has anythign to do with the specific comlpaint in the OP. That point was about HP. And really, specific HP doesn't matter. What matters is whether the encounter is of proper diffiuclty for the person likely to be doing it. Which goes back to my question for the OP - how long do you THINK it should take to kill this mob? and how long did it take you? The raw Hp amount can be adjusted to accomodate that. Matching up HP from 2 expansions ago to today is irrelevant since you have 2 expacs more (or better) worth of gear and abilities. it should absolutely NOT take you the same time to kill a mob in CS and in Tranquil sea.
Arieste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2014, 06:42 PM   #10
Arieste

Well-Known Member
Arieste's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 1
Default

oops. hit reply instead of edit.

what i meant to clarify was: it SHOULD take you about the same time to kill a solo con mob in Tranquil Sea TODAY as it took you to kill a similar mob in Cobalt Scar TWO YEARS AGO. That's the appropriate comparison.
Arieste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2014, 11:03 PM   #11
Kalika

Well-Known Member
Kalika's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

Mob in AoMalice are much easier to kill than outdoor mobs in ROK. In Kunark days a 1^ wyvern could be dangerous, today as arieste i can take several pack of mob tagged as "heroics" (ie solo heroic) without even healing myself.

Some ^^ in Solo zone do have quite some hp, so i need 30second to kill a ^^ ? and my necro 6 seconds ...

If they decrease HP more any dps class will kill anything within a second, it's already the case for outdoor mob my necro kill them almost instantly.

So I don't think that hp should be reduced, indeed it should be increased.
Kalika is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2014, 03:47 AM   #12
Achirin

Member
Achirin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

Okay, so I went and ran a bunch of zones so I could provide comparisons in ToV since expansion not level matters.

Advanced Solo Trash ToV - Roughly 3.1 mil
Advanced Solo Bosses - Roughly 13 mil (Queen 12.6, Monstrous Roc 13 mil, Zeveta 14 mil, Bazziz Zz 12.7 mil)

We also have gear in the game so I can make a few more points on that.

First - The quest line at the time my coercer reached Brokenskull Bay:Solo was still level 95 so NONE of the new gear matters, you can't wear it yet. Even after clearing the entire zone up to the Captain I had not leveled. (82% into level)

Second - The new quest gear is only better than 0/3 potent in HP, DPS is actually worse (minus weapons which were better than HKC drops slightly).

So you are essentially asking a new player to play the solo quest line in ToV gear, yet kill creatures that have ~2.5x the HP of ToV Advanced solo zones (3.1 mil to 8 mil) and bosses with 3x the hp (13 mil to 39 mil).

For overland quests I feel HP at IoR should be roughly equal to ToV overland since you aren't changing gear. So roughly 1 mil, that would still place it higher than same level creatures in other expansions. HP progresses up at later islands. Maybe 2.7 mil for the final islands.

Bosses for solo zones should be equal to name for ToV quest line initially and go up as the line progresses. I can't get these to re-spawn so I can't provide numbers but at most 13 mil as per advanced solo bosses from ToV.

I think the current numbers of the solo (8 mil for trash and 39 mil for bosses) would be good for AoM Advanced Solo as that's still ~3x higher than ToV Advanced solo.

Overall my biggest issue is that any previous quest line in the game you can go through with no merc and complete, level up, and get gear. This quest line so far has required a merc at many steps, and even with a merc doubling my DPS several non-boss fights are upwards of 7 min. I feel HP is the cause. The final room in the Ssra temple with shissar invaders (80 mil hp each) too me 20 minutes alone. It's NOT FUN, it's tedious. If you've beat the content "with ease" using a merc, and buffed to 100 with masters you trivialized the content. Use a 95 (any class), with ToV quest gear, adepts/experts, and no merc, that's what the solo quest line should be balanced for. If a warden can do it, but a coercer can't then it needs adjusting.
Achirin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2014, 04:01 PM   #13
Kalika

Well-Known Member
Kalika's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

I agree on that one, we probably miss special abilities to kill them (ailena will probably give us special spells). But still we will have to kill 3 trash with 80-90m of hp.

I disagree about outdoor mobs.

I agree that having no choice for quested gear is really bad, where is the quested armor exchange dude ?

I ran questline as 95, potent + before they nerfed several bosses, and outdoor was trivial (it would have been even in quested gear) and instance were easy except for 2 mobs that got tuned down several time (captain and evil paladin in highkeep)..

Last i used Daeron, why would you deprive yourself of 200k dps?
Kalika is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2014, 04:41 PM   #14
Achirin

Member
Achirin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default


Outdoor should be trivial, for people in potent. In fact you should be about 1 shotting it. What we don't want is new players to feel like 1 quest takes 30 minutes because it takes 2 minutes per fight with an outdoor mob and they need 15 updates. For certain DPS classes this means they complete quests faster, but for Pally's, Templars, and those with crappy dps it's still completable.

The reason for no merc is because it's an extra feature you have to pay SC for. Not everyone has mercs so the solo quest line should be tuned to people who do not have this feature. My SK was doing 400K with my defiler and even then some fights were a struggle. I tried on my Bruiser with no merc and couldn't take it after 3 trash mobs in Brokenskull bay. It takes WAY too long. I know Gninja said "may require a merc or friend" if that's the route their going okay, but I think it's a terrible design decision and people need to stand up for those that don't have this feature. I did not allow my kids to buy mercs for a long time so they actually had to play and learn their class. I'd hate to see everyone forced into mercs. (Unless they want to include the feature free with AoM for all. =P)
Achirin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2014, 05:07 PM   #15
GIndotto

Active Member
GIndotto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

I was doing roughly 400k dps single target, solo play, when CoE launched. I now do roughly 1mil single target. Having the mob HP go up 2-2.5x seems perfectly reasonable for the way the game has evolved.

It is impossible to create an expansion tuned around the lowest dps classes, who have equipped the least amount of gear worth DPS'ing in. If you feel under powered for starting zones I suggest going to ToV for the next 2 weeks and coming up with a game plan on how to get better at swinging at things. For cereal though. I see countless "low dps classes" wearing Max Health gear with no adorns, that's a problem.

Also, I remember when ToV Solos launched people were barking in channels that they were impossible. I don't think there's one person who's been here through ToV that would still say "Man those solo zones are impossible". Is there?
GIndotto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2014, 05:16 PM   #16
Azian

Active Member
Azian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

This is normal and unavoidable every expansion although I'll admit it has seemed more pronounced in some expacs than others. I still remember the first time I ventured into Kylong Plains and started questing. Holy crap they hit hard and died slow on that first day. Gear remedied that quickly though.
Azian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2014, 12:43 AM   #17
Achirin

Member
Achirin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default



ToV did not include any "solo" zones I'm aware of (maybe the temple instance from Harla Dar counts?), the zones for the signature quest line are all ADVANCED solo. The signature quest line is also not a staple part of ToV, in fact on 3 of my toons I had to go get it AFTER I completed the main solo line because I didn't know it existed. I completed that solo line with a warden, pally, defiler, and bruiser, using level 90 SoF gear and no merc since I hadn't bought the feature yet. Which then provided the 95 gear to do advanced solo zones (which admittedly is what made me purchase mercs). It was well designed and is what I'm trying to see done here.

I'm glad you are doing such high dps. I only have 1 toon breaking 500k solo, my assassin. My defiler sits at 150-200k solo, and my bruiser 300-400k with the exception of AE fights or devastation fist use. Neither of my toons uses max health gear in DPS spec. I can also clear every ToV advanced solo instance so my review isn't from someone who can't handle ToV. I'm not fully adorned but again that seems like a poor requirement for a new player to achieve for solo quest line in gear their going to replace shortly.
Achirin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2014, 05:28 AM   #18
Buffrat

Well-Known Member
Buffrat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

Just to throw it into the mix, as a geared t1 dps class (gear is only ~15-20% better than potent gear, jewelry is actually worse since it's all based on being in a raid), my ranger one shot pretty much everything in the solo zones. It took me 4 seconds to kill "bosses".
Buffrat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2014, 07:16 AM   #19
Grundge

Active Member
Grundge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

So am I the only one who is struggling with the SOLO zones? I am glad all you people with your l33t gear are wiping the floors in all the dungeons, but I am here using the gear meant to test these instances and I am getting wiped on every boss.

The devs need to improve the gear they are giving out to test these zones because for someone like me who doesnt have a max character on live, this is very difficult to test.
Grundge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2014, 08:35 AM   #20
Pauly

Active Member
Pauly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 3
Default

my 95 templar is ToV overland gear (ie.not even gemmed cryptic) can autoattack these overland mobs to death in 10-15 seconds each. If I use the monk merc.. fights are over before I can cast my dmg spells.
Pauly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2014, 09:53 AM   #21
Kalika

Well-Known Member
Kalika's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

Will you stop lying to people and claim ******** ?

For sure those items :
http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/890493060
http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/4235273083
http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/2349753166

Have zero impact on your dps ;-)

Jewelry is ten time more important than armor .... and sure not all come from raid or hard raids, as example vyeem who is a trivial mob (probably 1 groupable) ... drop charms that are rather sweet.

People in wing 1 rarely do more than 2, 2,5 m dps in raid ... and so hum let say 1m 1,5 m in PUG (ST dps).

Nevertheless i sort of agree, outdoor mob should be buffed, hps should be doubled and dps multiplied by like 5-10.
Kalika is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2014, 12:24 PM   #22
Buffrat

Well-Known Member
Buffrat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

Even if my dps were halved I'd be killing things in 12 seconds rather than 4 (4 auto rounds vs 2). Like. What? All of the jewelry I wear is trash for solo content. I have 650 cb/350(+~100) potency rather than ~560/350 potency. Oh no. That's roughly 15-20%. Prismatic's key dps gain is easily made up by all the proc damage gear soloers have.
Buffrat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2014, 04:43 PM   #23
Achirin

Member
Achirin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

Proc damage gear soloers have? I must have missed a whole set of gear then. The only proc damage I have is spines 20-24k when hit. Doesn't do much good for anyone not getting hit.
Achirin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2014, 05:22 PM   #24
Cisteros

Active Member
Cisteros's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

ok half the jewelry an endgame dps wears is ill-suited to soloing.

And I don't see anyone saying wearing solo looted jewelry. He said non-raid jewelry. stull like the items that drop in the easy heroic zones like High Keep, Hive, Nexus. Places like that, or the slightly upgraded versions available for sale on the broker.

And there is a proc wrist reward specifically designed for soloers from the overland quests if you completed the Mark of the Awakened quest from Kingdom of Sky. If you did not do it when it was current you can go back and it takes about an hour
Cisteros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2014, 05:57 PM   #25
Kalika

Well-Known Member
Kalika's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default


Actually you get an Aspect of the dragon 3 from a quest, but it require level 96 (i dinged 96 while doing the boat) and i don't remember when you get it.

People cannot get the Adragon 1 since Vespyr is closed.
Kalika is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2014, 06:14 PM   #26
Cisteros

Active Member
Cisteros's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

I am talking about conditions when the expansion goes live, which is the whole point here
Cisteros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2014, 11:23 PM   #27
Matia

New Member
Matia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

You are guessing then. (It may be a good guess, but a guess) Until it goes live, all that can be verified is what is on the Beta server. And that is all that should be evaluated.

If the devs feel that other gear is important to testing, they would have included it in in a buffing pack. Since it isn't, we can only assume that the gear there is about the level intended.
Matia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2014, 04:02 AM   #28
Cisteros

Active Member
Cisteros's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default


Perhaps I am laboring under a misconception. I am under the impression that the OP is complaining that the mobs have too many hp for his liking since they are not the same as equal level mobs from 2 content releases ago. From there the point was made that gear has boosted player power many times over in that time. Then people began debating the tedium factor for the silent majority in baseline ToV overland questline gear that have never run a heroic instance or looted a piece of gear better than ToV advanced solo. Then there was a tangent on how raid gear can be worse than heroic in some cases for playing solo. I came back in at that point and offered the existence of a damage proc specifically part of the solo ToV questline, which was countered with the fact that once into the AoM solo questline you will loot an upgrade to the item I spoke of from ToV. It was at that point I said I was talking about the conditions when the expansion goes live with respect to the gear that people will be wearing at 12:01 PM Pacific when we can but the new expansion. It is not a guess at all. It is 100% certain that no one will have access to level 96 AoM quest gear when they log in and hail the NPC in Freeport/Qeynos to get started on the AoM questline

I wish you well
Cisteros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2014, 05:04 AM   #29
Iseous

Member
Iseous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default

Raid gear doesn't do too much in solo. I usually trade out a bunch of my gear for nonraid stuff when I do solo instances. I'll even put the 70% run speed neck on over the Avatar neck to run through it all faster, and put on heroic charms like the ones that give constant 20 potency and 27.5 crit bonus (or the Fabled versions) so I don't have to worry about cooldowns. Although I mostly have DPS classes, so I can see how some of these could be annoying for some classes.
Iseous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2014, 05:11 AM   #30
Achirin

Member
Achirin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Posts: 0
Default



I must have misread this line, I thought it indicated there was a large amount of proc gear out there for soloers. That doesn't include "easy heroic zones".

It's 96 and thus unwearable by Brokenskull Bay since as I stated with current conditions you are not 96 when you hit this zone or even after clearing it. If mob HP increased as the expansion progressed I would have no qualms with that. It's the initial shock of entering the expansion to a sudden spike.



I started using the comparison between same level mobs since to me that is how the con system has worked. You go zone to zone and can figure a 20 in one zone is comparable to a 20 in another. Strategies may make one harder than another but HP/DPS wise I have a general guide.

Since that concept apparently is wrong I then provided additional ToV to AoM comparisons and since ToV gear is what you will use for AoM up until the point I've discussed I think those comparisons are valid regardless of level. I'm also completely judging this on a NEW player leveling up after launch as that's what I feel the solo quest line is aimed at.

My thoughts on Advanced solo having 4-5x hp increases? It felt fine, I didn't struggle at any point. Since AoM quest gear is only slightly worse than my potent, players should be able to handle it with maybe a few deaths until they get cryptic equivalant. Really though advanced solo I expect players to have a merc/friend, and be learning the more advanced aspects of the game.

So far the SOLO quest line requires a merc/friend, and that is due to the high HP. Which is something I feel needs to change, make it truly solable.
Achirin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:46 AM.

vBulletin skin by: CompleteGFX.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All threads and posts originally from the EQ2 and Station forums operated by Sony Online Entertainment. Their use is by express written permission.