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Old 07-17-2008, 11:30 PM   #1
Ri

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First off, I want to thank Leanan and his post http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=353709 for getting me pointed in the right direction.After coming back to the game from an almost 2 year hiatas, I found my 2-handed axe weilding zerker just not being able to keep up damage wise to another similiarly equiped zerker in my guild.  After trying to figure out his secret, he noted that dual wielding just did more damage than 2 Handers.The image of a large axe lugging zerker somewhat shattered, I set about to figure out -why- there was such a large difference between the two setups.  Going through Leanan's post and running parses of my own using different weapon setups, I was able to figure out the basic math and the two biggest reasons for why two handers just don't cut it (no pun intended).First off: Basic Auto-Attack DamageFor this example, we'll use L72 MC gear.  To determine a weapon's rating, it's (Min damage + Max damage)/delay.  A one handed weapon has a rating of 75.4 and a two handed has a delay of 99.0.  When dual wielding, the rating of the one handed weapon drops to 58 (rating/1.3) due to the fact that the delay is increased 30%.  However, using two of these weapons effectly doubles your rating and you are now using an equilvant rating two hander of 116, a nearly 18% boost over using an actual two hander alone.Secondly: ProcsIf using two MC weapons where both are imbued, then your proc rate is essentially doubled over that of an imbued 2 hander.  This accounts for the other large damage difference between the two setups (as has already been argued on this forum).At the very least, two handers should get at least a 15-20% increase in damage and to counter the lack of a second imbue, double the proc rate.  This would go a long way to evening out the differences between the two setups.
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Old 07-18-2008, 01:00 AM   #2
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This has always been the case. 2 handers have never really been a viable way of doing dps if you can dual wield. The problem was exasperated by the DW/1hander revamp a year or so ago. Also AA's specifically the STA line in the warrior tree even made dual wielding a non optimal setup in most cases. Crusaders can't DW and don't have a DA line so they don't really have a dps spec they can build for and have been complaining about the lackluster performance of 2 handers for years.

Many ideas have been suggested, some have been adopted. The 2 handers you see now typically have pretty decent delays(5sec+)and damage spreads on them where back in kos you would sometimes see 2 second delay 2 handers...Givng all fighers an AA somewhere in their archetype lines that enhances 2 handers would be neat I think. STR4 for warriors be my suggestion(who goes past str3 anyway) the + hate gain there is a joke and those AA's can be better spent elsewhere. Make it 3% per rank or something DA if 2hander equipped. Other archetypes probably have underutilized lines where this could provide some use as well.

 Anyway, yeah 2 handers suck, they always have, it sucks that they suck...

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Old 07-18-2008, 09:48 AM   #3
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As a crusader who does not even get the option to dual wield, i agree something needs to be done about 2 handers.

Crusaders get the shaft when it comes to aa and managing our offensive abilities. No da bonus, no bonus for using a sword and board (like warriors) and no bonus for using a 2 hander, no DPS bonus.  Its extremely unsastisfactory.  We do get Melee crits (28% i believe max from aa) and spell crits, which nice, are unfortunately not a high contributing factor to a t8 crusader dps.

We have available to us the same exact 1 handers and 2 handers that warriors can use, the only difference is we get less out of them, unfortunately.  I am not 100% sure on the aa's available to brawlers, but i believe they have some sort of options to enhance their melee dps via DA/dual/DPS wield bonuses?

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Old 07-18-2008, 06:56 PM   #4
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This has always been a problem, but since RoK auto-attack DPS is way more important. With the new 2h though, an auto-attack crit can be more damage than any of my spells/CAs SMILEY.
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Old 07-18-2008, 08:42 PM   #5
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Its because SK's use 2h'ers to optimize DPS and SOE seems to want to do everything in their power to keep SKs as [Removed for Content] as possible.  That is the only reason that this issue has been ignored for years, continues to be ignored, and will never be fixed.  Not God, but SOE, hates SKs.
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Old 07-18-2008, 10:56 PM   #6
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RanmaBoyType wrote:

I am not 100% sure on the aa's available to brawlers, but i believe they have some sort of options to enhance their melee dps via DA/dual/DPS wield bonuses?

Brawlers get nothing. Unless you count STR line which gives 96% double attack. Oh did I mention you cannot equip weapons with this line? /taps foot impatiently...
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Old 07-18-2008, 11:53 PM   #7
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I hope total revamp of 2 handed weapon.2 handed weapon should have protection, parrying, status-up, resists, proc, and adornment to cover "1H and shield"'s protection, parrying, status-up, resists, proc and adornment.And make a stance of 2 handed weapon for crusaders. This "2H weapon stance" should have no demerit and increase crusaders' attack and defence.
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Old 07-19-2008, 09:05 AM   #8
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Until the dawn of the firepowder,

You died best at an heavy crossbow, an english longbow, or the strokes of an two handed sword, two handed warhammer or an helbard.

Try in the real world to fight in armor with two weapons against an twohanded weapon.

The armor will take your swings of the one handed, but an helbard will bite you. Even more gruesome, the two handed warhammer, favored weapon of foot knights in the one hundred year war.

Look at AoC, fighting two handed weapon can be done well.

Damage of two handed needs quite some boost, more then 18%, as dual wields using game mechanics better (crit, double attack).

The ideas here, esspecialy with stances are nice. Giving an 10% block on a 2-handed stance would be needed, otherwise it would be only usable as an DPS stance. And beeing outranged in melee combat is some nice form of protection SMILEY

Brawler Strenght line, like Crusader wisdom line, needs a revamp. Warriors have 5 lines to use, the other tanks have only 4 choices for real.

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Old 07-19-2008, 02:36 PM   #9
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[email protected] wrote:
RanmaBoyType wrote:

I am not 100% sure on the aa's available to brawlers, but i believe they have some sort of options to enhance their melee dps via DA/dual/DPS wield bonuses?

Brawlers get nothing. Unless you count STR line which gives 96% double attack. Oh did I mention you cannot equip weapons with this line? /taps foot impatiently...
zomg. I just love it when other brawlers bring up our gimpness. I understand that you want this changed, the little 2 hander thingy, SK problems, and brawlers incompitence... so use the feedback system. Its not considered spamming if you do it once per day and it's typed out and not copied and pasted. It takes awhile, a good long while, but Im sure dev's would get pretty annoyed constantly getting random notes of what needs to be changed while in game. I know it'd annoy me.
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Old 07-20-2008, 10:21 AM   #10
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It was nice they finally increased the delay on 2h, but they need to make a major adjustment to the stats and the base damage on them also.

Plus give crusaders a line for increasing 2h damage substantially, you lose major avoidance when using 2h so its not like we would be tanking/ot in that build.  But lets be honest, specially in for SK, your usually not choosen for either role if there is another choice.  The Wisdom line for crusaders would be a nice idea, drop the group regen (its useless in tier 8, heck it was useless in teir 7) and give a DA bonus for 2h.

The imbanlance between dual wield and 2h is kind of silly.  If your getting hit with a big bleeping ax it should hurt ALOT!

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Old 07-20-2008, 09:41 PM   #11
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Totally agree with upping the 2 handers.  It's not like we're going to be overpowered anyway.

RanmaBoyType wrote:

 We do get Melee crits (28% i believe max from aa)

From the stamina line in the crusader tree?  On my dwarven SK it's more like 22% but yeah it's still low.
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Old 07-21-2008, 12:58 AM   #12
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I agree with the OP. I actually had a long thread about this a few weeks ago.

/feedback 2Handers: Why use them when you can Duel Wield?

No response though. Hopefully they will adress your post.

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Old 07-21-2008, 06:28 AM   #13
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I'm all in favor of a boost to 2 handers, but ive been wanting this for years.As a historian the two weapons gimmick is one I find ridiculous.  There is a reason you use a two handed axe to cut down a tree and not two handaxes.  It does more damage, and it penetrates protection.  I feel this situation in MMO's may be more to do with the teenage Drizzt lovers than any real sensibility.Despite this, I always use two handers on my fighter types, or sword and shield.  Dual wield makes me roll my eyes.
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