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Old 10-26-2010, 05:02 PM   #31
Kizee

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Gaige wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Because if you start with one ability vs another, where does it end?

Sigh, it was just an EXAMPLE of WHY I think assassinate's recast should be lowered.  I don't care if we compare it to anything.

For the DAMAGE that ASSASSINATE does the RECAST is totally 100% absolutely RIDICULOUS and UNCALLED FOR.

It should be 4 minutes or 5 minutes base recast so that you can use it every other FFU chain.  Nothing about assassinate warrants its ridiculous recast.  IF they insist that it stays a ludicrous FIFTEEN MINUTES the damage should be quadrupled or something to make the wait worth it.

I simply used Ice Comet because it can hit about as hard as assassinate yet they can use it every 45 seconds.  EB hits about 10x harder than assassinate and conjurors can use it every 90 seconds (3 minute base reuse).

If our specialty is short single target burst then our "best" ahem most damaging CA (only sometimes, FFU does more all the time and its a minute reuse) should be usable for the majority of those fights.

So can anyone tell me why they feel the recast time on assassinate is warranted?  No.  Thought so.

As for other classes who are stuck with long recasts, I'm fairly sure they can make a post to get theirs changed too.  I'm an assassin, I only care about our worthless CA.

[email protected] wrote:

But would assassins accept a damage reduction to Assassinate, to go with the lowered reuse time, in order to keep general DPS output totals in control?

The damage assassinate does doesn't warrant the recast, period.  A max of 450ish thousand isn't near enough to warrant using an ability once or twice per raid zone.  Not to mention the fact that assassins aren't so overpowered as to need a reduction in dps if this CA gets fixed.  I routinely lose to conjurors on sub 1 minute fights thanks to EB and wizards, warlocks, swashes, conjurors and others are competitive encounter to encounter and don't even get me started on zonewides, our lack of AE dps or the fact that on the hardest encounters in this game (like Yael) casters are already more valuable.

How dare you use logic on these boards Gaige. You should know better.

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Old 10-26-2010, 05:13 PM   #32
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Good luck with this, warlock spells are outclassed again and again by their wizard counterparts. Lower recasts, more damage, not being broken, SDA fully affecting them, not being cured, etc. Wizards are a big dev favorite no doubt, but then again assassins arent far behind.

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Old 10-26-2010, 05:18 PM   #33
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[email protected] wrote:

Wizards are a big dev favorite no doubt, but then again assassins arent far behind.

I'd say we're pretty far behind when Ballads can complain about elemental resistant encounters and they're immediately changed while this expansion still has five or six mobs I can barely attack 50% of the time.

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Old 10-26-2010, 06:05 PM   #34
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Gaige wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Wizards are a big dev favorite no doubt, but then again assassins arent far behind.

I'd say we're pretty far behind when Ballads can complain about elemental resistant encounters and they're immediately changed while this expansion still has five or six mobs I can barely attack 50% of the time.

I meant more as a comparison to other classes and their issues.

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Old 10-26-2010, 06:46 PM   #35
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I remember playing my Assassin for 5 years, since launch before changing classes. Anyone else remember when recast was 1 hour? Those were the days.

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Old 10-26-2010, 06:49 PM   #36
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Gaige wrote:

 while this expansion still has five or six mobs I can barely attack 50% of the time.

Five or six??!! Oh no!!!  Bring down the servers and HOTFIX!!!

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Old 10-26-2010, 06:59 PM   #37
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Andok wrote:

Five or six??!! Oh no!!!  Bring down the servers and HOTFIX!!!

Exactly, that is what they did for the THREE mobs that resisted wizards elemental attacks, even if it wasn't the entire encounter but only the adds.

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Old 10-26-2010, 09:06 PM   #38
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Assassinate should be made like the brawler Devastation Fist. Instant kill on standard and weaker mobs, but keep its current damage on heroic and epic mobs with the same reuse timer it has now. Or, lower it to five minutes like Harm Touch/Devastation Fist.

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Old 10-27-2010, 05:13 AM   #39
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Gaige wrote:

Rhadamanthys wrote:

which means in terms of DPS, it isn't nearly as much as Assassinate.  

Um, no.  Look at a zw every once in awhile.  What a stupid statement.  Even factoring in cast time you can use IC every 50 seconds (without any reuse gear) vs 15 minutes with assassinate - just lol.

Its burst damage you are queuing up time there for, not DPS, the higher the burst damage the exponentially more valuable it is (moot on raid mobs with millions of health, rather handy for heroic mobs where its the difference between being able to solo them or getting killed).

Lowering its cooldown means also that you up the Assassin's overall DPS, I've not seen any need for Assassin's to get a buff in DPS?

And upping player power means nerfing the difficulty of content.

So all in all I don't see any benefits myself to making the Assassin's version of Sniper even faster to recast.

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Old 10-27-2010, 06:58 AM   #40
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Lowering the recast to 10 minutes should not be a big deal: if you are in a big fight, don't you want all the help you can get? And if the assassin is just doing it to up their [Removed for Content]-ness then you need to blacklist the sod for giving all assassin's a bad name

Having something like Assassinate enables V`Wak to finally solo mobs higher than pale-blue (and do it more often than once an hour) specially in 'fun' events where you have no option but face white mobs

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Old 10-27-2010, 12:10 PM   #41
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MurFalad wrote:

Its burst damage you are queuing up time there for, not DPS, the higher the burst damage the exponentially more valuable it is 

Um, Ice Comet can and does hit for right around 250k.

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Old 10-27-2010, 12:26 PM   #42
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I'd agree with you Gaige, but they already moved it to the forums they rarely if ever read so SMILEY

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Old 10-27-2010, 03:16 PM   #43
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Please keep in mind that FFU chains are all too easily interrupted.  So no, FFU does not always hit as hard as assassinate.  Anything from AoE to getting teleported away, to jousting and being stunned/stifled can break a chain.  Or at least reduce the amount of stealth attacks executed in the last 10 seconds.

I am in agreement with the original post...5 minute recast at most.

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Old 10-28-2010, 04:27 PM   #44
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If this is about parity among the classes, then I’m sure the assassin community would be in full support of allowing sorcerers to wear chainmail, duel-wield and equip spell pouches that have awesome stats. That’s fair, right? Since we’re trying to level the playing field?~ Fin

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Old 10-28-2010, 08:39 PM   #45
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Gaige wrote:

Andok wrote:

Five or six??!! Oh no!!!  Bring down the servers and HOTFIX!!!

Exactly, that is what they did for the THREE mobs that resisted wizards elemental attacks, even if it wasn't the entire encounter but only the adds.

Sadly this expansion (UD in particular) is very melee unfriendly, there are entire named that are virtually impossible to joust in for any amount of time without an aoe blocker on you.  With raids needing to stack more healers for curse and other staple raid issues its not a fun time to be melee at all.  It would have been nice if ranged classes felt even a bit of our pain instead of getting their issues fixed immediately.

To the pont of this thread however, balancing one ability of one class against another ability of another class even if the two classes do similiar roles (or even the exact same role) and the two abilities are similar in nature is the wrong way to go about it.  Every class is unique, and ultimately when deciding which skills need to be "fixed" the important questions are:

1) does it work.

2) do players use it.

3) is there some problem with it that detracts from the enjoyment of the game.

4) is the class as a whole balanced where soe wants it.

If the skill works and the players use it and the class is where soe wants it to be then there is no point in changing skills.  I don't play an assassin so I can't particularily speak on #2 but #1, #3 and #4 seem to be fine.

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Old 10-29-2010, 06:26 PM   #46
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assassins need to have higher single target dps then all other classes because their main function is to dps and once you start adding joust and other factors that are common to raiding, assassin damage takes a sharp drop off.

  ca's/spells should ultimately dictate damage potential so the fact assassin has a ca at 15 min recast is absolutely ridiculous.     yes ranger still need some tweeks to ca's damage but the fact that they can joust out and not loose nearly as much damage as assassin means that their burst damage should stay lower then assassin. 

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Old 11-01-2010, 01:05 AM   #47
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Gaige wrote:

MurFalad wrote:

Its burst damage you are queuing up time there for, not DPS, the higher the burst damage the exponentially more valuable it is 

Um, Ice Comet can and does hit for right around 250k.

Read through this thread and realized people will say anything for things to not get fixed.  So here is my 2 cents on it.

These are all assuming the players are of good quality and equal T3 gear.

1.  IC ~ 250k = min recast, 22.5 seconds

2.  EB ~ 1 million= min recast 1.5 minutes.

3.  VC ~ 100k= min recast 5 minutes?  <-- Group wide multiple trigger buff.

4.  Dance of Metal ~ 115k= min recast 1 minute  <-- LAST TRIGGER ONLY!  Total combined damage ~ 350k

5.  Assassinate ~ 425k = min recast 7.5 minutes.

To say that this ability is anywhere close to where it is supposed to be now is insane...  On any parse assassinate gets beat by all these abilities in dps, even if you pulled at a rate of waiting 2 minutes between pulls and using it as often as possible.  On an 4 minute fight, Peace of mind out DPSes what is supposed to be the class defining ability.  

Edit:  Actually looking at a parse where PoM out dpses it in a 3 minute fight.. that is just sad.

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Old 11-01-2010, 07:00 AM   #48
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I agree completely. The recast of assassinate is way to long as it currently stands. It's base recast should be reduced to 4 minutes (and mortal blade should have the same recast as eviscerate and jugular slice as well).

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Old 11-01-2010, 08:53 AM   #49
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Have to agree with Gaige 100% on this - the recast on assassinate is antiquated and a joke. 1% - 2% contribution to zw parses on raids makes for sad reading.

What happens if a high hitter like Ice Comet or Fusion gets resisted? Refreshes in few seconds, but what happens when assassinate gets riposted/parried/blocked? Full recast timer. The "Hitbonus: 100% easier" reads as 50% parried/blocked/riposted in Underfoot Depths at least, Wing 3 I won't even mention for scouts. Someone seems to have suddenly forgotten tanks aren't the only classes engaging in melee combat.

Recast on assassinate needs to come down. Alot.

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Old 11-01-2010, 03:16 PM   #50
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5 minutes is way too low, especially when you can cut that in half with 100% reuse.  FFU should always follow assassinate... You have Predator's Final Trick to guarantee that (unless the mob dies before FFU hits and there is nothing else nearby or you don't plan its use properly.)

A reduction is good, but 5 minutes is extreme. 

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Old 11-02-2010, 12:55 AM   #51
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Gungo wrote:

Followup > assassinate now. If you are going to compare the 2 best abilities compare the 2 best, but honestly you can not compare 2 random abilities from 2 vastly different classes. You got to compare classes as a whole and right now assassins are very comparable to wizards. Depending on what Velious brings for sorcerers I can see assassinate being reduced to 5-3 minutes of course by then sorcerers should be getting something equally as impressive. 

BTW ice comet is resistible assassinate is not. 

Assassinate can miss which is worse than being resisted.

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Old 11-02-2010, 02:55 AM   #52
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

5 minutes is way too low, especially when you can cut that in half with 100% reuse.  FFU should always follow assassinate... You have Predator's Final Trick to guarantee that (unless the mob dies before FFU hits and there is nothing else nearby or you don't plan its use properly.)

A reduction is good, but 5 minutes is extreme. 

5 mins makes it 2.5 minutes which lines it up perfectly with every other FFU chain and makes a lot more sense with 3 abilities being 1 min, one being 3 mins and the other being 5 mins.

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Old 11-02-2010, 10:57 AM   #53
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Gaige wrote:

Needs to have its recast lowered or its damage doubled.  It doesn't do near enough damage for the ridiculously long recast.  

Elemental Blast, for instance, does way more damage on single target burn fights and don't even get me started on wizard abilities that hit as hard or harder than assassinate while having under 5 minute recasts.

Assassins should be the king of short, single target burst fights and we no longer are because our good CAs are handcuffed by ridiculous recast rates while other classes have gotten abilities that straight up outclass it, outdamage it and can be used way more often.

Please take a look at it and get it inline with how it should be, because its currently pretty unsatisfactory.

+1

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Old 11-08-2010, 03:56 AM   #54
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With Velious Assassins Auto-attack will proc assassinate 50% of the time and Evac 50% of the time

 Its true , its on the internetz

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Old 11-28-2010, 10:51 PM   #55
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110% on this !

Assassinate needs some love now , its our class ability , sort it out please. (and dont make us use a stack of aa points in the next expac to do it mkay)

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Old 11-29-2010, 05:35 PM   #56
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Something really needs to be done with Assassinate.

Something is wrong when your class defining (even in namesake) so called heavy hitter barely shows up in ZW parse breakdowns.

Sure it can put out some "impressive" single hit numbers (ok not really anymore) but if people were to take a look at what it actually contributes to overall DPS its a joke.

I would say with its current DMG the reuse (after buffs and AAs, JCAP) should be at 2.5min.

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Old 12-13-2010, 11:36 AM   #57
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I actually mentioned this issue during sentinals fate beta, assassinate has always been the classes signature CA.  With the way damage/mob hp has scaled over the years assassinate hasnt scaled with it.  Personally I'd like the damage increased 4X keeping the same reuse.  Its an ability not meant to zw parse, its there to add a burst dps component to the assassins arsenal. 

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Old 12-15-2010, 04:15 PM   #58
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15 min recasts just don't make sense in the current EQ2 game. There's not much downtime between pulls or even boss pulls, and the damage spike provided by assassinate isn't high enough that you're saving it to drop a bomb at an appropriate time. It's just another button you press but on a long cooldown. 5 min sounds a lot more appropriate.

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Old 12-17-2010, 03:12 AM   #59
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Xelgad, please explain something like this to me:

See that?  That is the PALADIN reflect ability.  A fighter.  A defensive fighter.  You see it doing 109k ext?  You see it hitting for 166k more than the best assassinate WW?

Now explain to me why assassinate needs a 15 min recast?  It doesn't.  This game makes no sense balance or mechanics wise when you allow things like this to happen.

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Old 12-17-2010, 08:48 AM   #60
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That is a wicked reflect. I highly doubt that's going to occur more than in extreme cases where as assassinate has a much smaller variation than legionare's conviction will most likely have across all the zones and fights.

That said, the 15 minute recast is completely rediculous, but also the amount of dps auto attack does for scouts and fighters is also out of control when you look at the fact that mages need power for pretty much every last bit of dps they do. There should be considerations for that difference, but IMO the fact we're so deeply entrenched into MOAR DPS!!1 that theres no chance of controlling it anymore, a 15 minute recast on really any ability regardless of if it's assassin, necro, or w/e is just silly.

Whats the worst that can happen? Blow up mobs faster? Unbalance gears more so theres tons of rangers AND assassins running rampant? Too late imo, the damage has been done. At this point it's all about enjoying the game while it lasts.

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