Chaotic Leech - Page 2

Daalilama · 10-26-2018, 05:28 AM

This does not bode well for healers...finally got the xpac due to juggling finances however from speaking with healers across the community directly I'm wondering why I even bothered again...seriously this big of a change nerf whatever you call it needs again healer community input from across the board not just a chosen few and again we are always asked to deal with major mechanics changes with little to no input let alone major suggestions minor tossing of bones not withstanding. And let's try and be honest test/beta are not true representations of live and mechanics changes on them tend to bork out when they hit live (don't believe me I could refresh everyone's memory on the war-field guardians dr buff that wasn't there but was). Hiding a zone debuff to heals seriously.

10-26-2018, 02:11 PM

well dps has its own debuff

pot mitigation, combat mitigation, and so on

though I'd prefer my heals to be lower all the time but constent than having debuff on zones.

If I can manage to heal in a heroic zone with debuffs, it means I'd have no issue in solo/outdoor to heal either. so why not just lower everything at the base ?

that's just what I don't get

Mermut · 10-26-2018, 05:06 PM

The dps

The dps 'hurdles' are mostly visible to players... and they don't target specific spells (and perhaps specific classes?) harder then others. The healing debuff isn't uniform.
Some simple tests (mostly with wards, because they always land for the same amount and we can see how much they land for, not just how much they heal for) shows that different arts on the same class aren't debuffed by the same mount for the same class.. and the amount of debuff also seems to be different between different healer classes.

I admit I'm perplexed why they further 'debuff' healers in harder content.. since the mobs already hit harder in harder content. So, literally, as the mobs hit people harder, the healers tools get WORSE. Frown

Gillymann · 10-26-2018, 05:50 PM

There is an old adage that (supposedly) Black and Decker used to drum into it's employees:

"People aren't really buying the drill, they are buying the hole in the wall."

The current revenue model kind of implies DBG understands this very well. But then on the other hand, stuff like this healing debuff (and other stuff that has been done) leads me to believe otherwise.

Confusing really.

10-26-2018, 06:58 PM

Isn't this just the same as the way the avoidance buff package on the mobs gets tougher on later content? You're expected to have to have better gear and/or make better use of your character. Just like it takes more to dps well on later content, they want it to take more to heal... It's really the only straight forward part about this. In theory it also means they don't need to ramp up damage to one shot levels if they just make us do more work to get people back to green.

It's mostly the fact that we are casting in the dark that is bugging me. Can't constructively comment on a hidden mechanic. For instance, is it reducing more on regenerating wards vs static? Does it change with the level or tier of spell? Are AA abilities treated the same? How much will gear upgrades actually help us overcome this thing?

Really would just like more information...

Mermut · 10-26-2018, 07:13 PM

Cunning said: ↑

“Isn't this just the same as the way the avoidance buff package on the mobs gets tougher on later content? You're expected to have to have better gear and/or make better use of your character. Just like it takes more to dps well on later content, they want it to take more to heal... It's really the only straight forward part about this. In theory it also means they don't need to ramp up damage to one shot levels if they just make us do more work to get people back to green.

It's mostly the fact that we are casting in the dark that is bugging me. Can't constructively comment on a hidden mechanic. For instance, is it reducing more on regenerating wards vs static? Does it change with the level or tier of spell? Are AA abilities treated the same? How much will gear upgrades actually help us overcome this thing?

Really would just like more information...”

The problem with that is that dps DOES go up as content gets harder... with the increasing healing debuff... it seems like they're trying to keep healing flat while the incoming damage continues to go UP...
So healers will, effectively never get increases in their healing for their new content.
The rough numbers I've got form limited testing is that the difference between the t1 and t2 herioc debuff is 5-7%
So healers need an overall increase in gear of that much just to stay even on their heals.. and that doesn't take into account the increased incoming damage between the tiers.

I get the impression that the devs have some idea of how they 'want' healers to be played in order to be effective. But they haven't shared that vision with us.. and I don't think they have a good feel for how healers HAVE been played in recent expac.. so they don't know how much of a change their idea may or may not to how healing has worked for years. So, at the same time they seem to be trying to push 2 healers per group, they're also making big changes to how healers have to play in order to be effective that is a big enough change to how they've been played most effectively to make healing less effective to many 'current' healers.
That's a bad combo... wanting more healers while at the same time making healing... less attractive...

Gillymann · 10-26-2018, 10:03 PM

So....

The remedy to this more punishing debuff would be.......greater potency/crit bonus??

/confused

Mermut · 10-26-2018, 10:39 PM

We don't have any information how the debuff actually works or even it's actual debuff numbers. Consequently it is extremely difficult to figure out what we can do to overcome it. Unfortunately, I'm beginning to think that is one of the reasons they're hiding the information from us. Unlike the dps 'debuff' of planar defense (where the numbers are given so dps can meet the goals) the devs don't WANT healers to 'mitigate' the debuff.. they want us to just 'deal with it'.

At a guess, part of the strategy to slow players down this expac has moved form lowering dps to making it... harder... to heal.

Daalilama · 10-27-2018, 12:20 AM

Well let's be honest the last dev i was aware of that actually played a healer full time (Their players too you know...or so we have all been told) was back during Sentinels Fate...oh they played around with the channelers when they came out for bit but that passed....hense the reason I brought it up...The devs do not play healers no healer worth their salt would ever consider what is coming via mechanics changes is good. I know I probably have burned quite a few bridges with the devs staff with regards to my comments (I have always been friendly and respectful with them in the past) but my responsibility is not to either the devs or tanks/dps classes my responsibility is to the healer community and for those that do not have a chance to speak out on how these changes will affect them going forward.

10-27-2018, 08:02 AM

Dps doesn't go up as content gets harder. It's goes up with gear. The same toon can do more on lower content. You have gear past it. I may not like it. And I question the implementation, but it is the same concept. Same gear less effective on harder fights. The fact that we get double the hit isn't ideal, but it's still the same result. You need to have better gear/spells for higher tiers.

Mermut · 10-27-2018, 08:22 AM

True.. if you have the gear to survive the harder content, your dps goes up. Unfortunately that's not how it seems to be working with healers... having enough gear to survive (ie enough resolve) doesn't mean the healers heals are going to go up.. even while the mobs ARE hitting harder. I confess I can't even begin to understand why that concept seems like a good idea to anybody Frown

10-30-2018, 09:11 AM

sorry, what class do you play @daalilama? just wondering

10-31-2018, 06:55 PM

The remedy is to pay to get your healer merc to level 20 so it can heal while the ex-healer player either quits or rerolls as dps. Seems like what DBG wants to happen.

Mermut · 10-31-2018, 06:58 PM

That will be 'fun' with the various 'cure or bad things happen' and the other 'DON'T cure or bad things happen' dets Wink

Gillymann · 10-31-2018, 07:04 PM

Not to mention the random afk mechanics mercs have.

11-02-2018, 01:53 PM

mercs too have to go to small room !!

10-26-2018, 02:11 PM	#32
Earar Well-Known Member Posts: n/a	Mermut said: ↑ “Chaotic Leech doesn't affect dps at all.. it is 100% a healing/healer debuff” well dps has its own debuff pot mitigation, combat mitigation, and so on though I'd prefer my heals to be lower all the time but constent than having debuff on zones. If I can manage to heal in a heroic zone with debuffs, it means I'd have no issue in solo/outdoor to heal either. so why not just lower everything at the base ? that's just what I don't get

10-26-2018, 05:06 PM	#33
Mermut Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	The dps Earar said: ↑ “well dps has its own debuff pot mitigation, combat mitigation, and so on though I'd prefer my heals to be lower all the time but constent than having debuff on zones. If I can manage to heal in a heroic zone with debuffs, it means I'd have no issue in solo/outdoor to heal either. so why not just lower everything at the base ? that's just what I don't get” The dps 'hurdles' are mostly visible to players... and they don't target specific spells (and perhaps specific classes?) harder then others. The healing debuff isn't uniform. Some simple tests (mostly with wards, because they always land for the same amount and we can see how much they land for, not just how much they heal for) shows that different arts on the same class aren't debuffed by the same mount for the same class.. and the amount of debuff also seems to be different between different healer classes. I admit I'm perplexed why they further 'debuff' healers in harder content.. since the mobs already hit harder in harder content. So, literally, as the mobs hit people harder, the healers tools get WORSE.

10-26-2018, 06:58 PM	#35
Cunning New Member Posts: n/a	Mermut said: ↑ “... I admit I'm perplexed why they further 'debuff' healers in harder content.. since the mobs already hit harder in harder content. So, literally, as the mobs hit people harder, the healers tools get WORSE. ” Isn't this just the same as the way the avoidance buff package on the mobs gets tougher on later content? You're expected to have to have better gear and/or make better use of your character. Just like it takes more to dps well on later content, they want it to take more to heal... It's really the only straight forward part about this. In theory it also means they don't need to ramp up damage to one shot levels if they just make us do more work to get people back to green. It's mostly the fact that we are casting in the dark that is bugging me. Can't constructively comment on a hidden mechanic. For instance, is it reducing more on regenerating wards vs static? Does it change with the level or tier of spell? Are AA abilities treated the same? How much will gear upgrades actually help us overcome this thing? Really would just like more information...

10-26-2018, 07:13 PM	#36
Mermut Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Cunning said: ↑ “Isn't this just the same as the way the avoidance buff package on the mobs gets tougher on later content? You're expected to have to have better gear and/or make better use of your character. Just like it takes more to dps well on later content, they want it to take more to heal... It's really the only straight forward part about this. In theory it also means they don't need to ramp up damage to one shot levels if they just make us do more work to get people back to green. It's mostly the fact that we are casting in the dark that is bugging me. Can't constructively comment on a hidden mechanic. For instance, is it reducing more on regenerating wards vs static? Does it change with the level or tier of spell? Are AA abilities treated the same? How much will gear upgrades actually help us overcome this thing? Really would just like more information...” The problem with that is that dps DOES go up as content gets harder... with the increasing healing debuff... it seems like they're trying to keep healing flat while the incoming damage continues to go UP... So healers will, effectively never get increases in their healing for their new content. The rough numbers I've got form limited testing is that the difference between the t1 and t2 herioc debuff is 5-7% So healers need an overall increase in gear of that much just to stay even on their heals.. and that doesn't take into account the increased incoming damage between the tiers. I get the impression that the devs have some idea of how they 'want' healers to be played in order to be effective. But they haven't shared that vision with us.. and I don't think they have a good feel for how healers HAVE been played in recent expac.. so they don't know how much of a change their idea may or may not to how healing has worked for years. So, at the same time they seem to be trying to push 2 healers per group, they're also making big changes to how healers have to play in order to be effective that is a big enough change to how they've been played most effectively to make healing less effective to many 'current' healers. That's a bad combo... wanting more healers while at the same time making healing... less attractive...

10-26-2018, 10:03 PM	#37
Gillymann New Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Mermut said: ↑ “True.. if you have the gear to survive the harder content, your dps goes up. Unfortunately that's not how it seems to be working with healers... having enough gear to survive (ie enough resolve) doesn't mean the healers heals are going to go up.. even while the mobs ARE hitting harder. I confess I can't even begin to understand why that concept seems like a good idea to anybody ” So.... The remedy to this more punishing debuff would be.......greater potency/crit bonus?? /confused

10-26-2018, 05:28 AM	#31
Daalilama Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	This does not bode well for healers...finally got the xpac due to juggling finances however from speaking with healers across the community directly I'm wondering why I even bothered again...seriously this big of a change nerf whatever you call it needs again healer community input from across the board not just a chosen few and again we are always asked to deal with major mechanics changes with little to no input let alone major suggestions minor tossing of bones not withstanding. And let's try and be honest test/beta are not true representations of live and mechanics changes on them tend to bork out when they hit live (don't believe me I could refresh everyone's memory on the war-field guardians dr buff that wasn't there but was). Hiding a zone debuff to heals seriously.

10-26-2018, 05:50 PM	#34
Gillymann New Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	There is an old adage that (supposedly) Black and Decker used to drum into it's employees: "People aren't really buying the drill, they are buying the hole in the wall." The current revenue model kind of implies DBG understands this very well. But then on the other hand, stuff like this healing debuff (and other stuff that has been done) leads me to believe otherwise. Confusing really.

10-26-2018, 10:39 PM	#38
Mermut Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Gillymann said: ↑ “So.... The remedy to this more punishing debuff would be.......greater potency/crit bonus?? /confused” We don't have any information how the debuff actually works or even it's actual debuff numbers. Consequently it is extremely difficult to figure out what we can do to overcome it. Unfortunately, I'm beginning to think that is one of the reasons they're hiding the information from us. Unlike the dps 'debuff' of planar defense (where the numbers are given so dps can meet the goals) the devs don't WANT healers to 'mitigate' the debuff.. they want us to just 'deal with it'. At a guess, part of the strategy to slow players down this expac has moved form lowering dps to making it... harder... to heal.

10-27-2018, 12:20 AM	#39
Daalilama Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Well let's be honest the last dev i was aware of that actually played a healer full time (Their players too you know...or so we have all been told) was back during Sentinels Fate...oh they played around with the channelers when they came out for bit but that passed....hense the reason I brought it up...The devs do not play healers no healer worth their salt would ever consider what is coming via mechanics changes is good. I know I probably have burned quite a few bridges with the devs staff with regards to my comments (I have always been friendly and respectful with them in the past) but my responsibility is not to either the devs or tanks/dps classes my responsibility is to the healer community and for those that do not have a chance to speak out on how these changes will affect them going forward.

10-27-2018, 08:02 AM	#40
Cunning New Member Posts: n/a	Dps doesn't go up as content gets harder. It's goes up with gear. The same toon can do more on lower content. You have gear past it. I may not like it. And I question the implementation, but it is the same concept. Same gear less effective on harder fights. The fact that we get double the hit isn't ideal, but it's still the same result. You need to have better gear/spells for higher tiers.

10-27-2018, 08:22 AM	#41
Mermut Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Cunning said: ↑ “Dps doesn't go up as content gets harder. It's goes up with gear. The same toon can do more on lower content. You have gear past it. I may not like it. And I question the implementation, but it is the same concept. Same gear less effective on harder fights. The fact that we get double the hit isn't ideal, but it's still the same result. You need to have better gear/spells for higher tiers.” True.. if you have the gear to survive the harder content, your dps goes up. Unfortunately that's not how it seems to be working with healers... having enough gear to survive (ie enough resolve) doesn't mean the healers heals are going to go up.. even while the mobs ARE hitting harder. I confess I can't even begin to understand why that concept seems like a good idea to anybody

10-30-2018, 09:11 AM	#42
Razpberry New Member Posts: n/a	sorry, what class do you play @daalilama? just wondering

10-31-2018, 06:55 PM	#43
Meneltel Well-Known Member Posts: n/a	Gillymann said: ↑ “So.... The remedy to this more punishing debuff would be.......greater potency/crit bonus?? /confused” The remedy is to pay to get your healer merc to level 20 so it can heal while the ex-healer player either quits or rerolls as dps. Seems like what DBG wants to happen.

10-31-2018, 06:58 PM	#44
Mermut Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Meneltel said: ↑ “The remedy is to pay to get your healer merc to level 20 so it can heal while the ex-healer player either quits or rerolls as dps. Seems like what DBG wants to happen.” That will be 'fun' with the various 'cure or bad things happen' and the other 'DON'T cure or bad things happen' dets

10-31-2018, 07:04 PM	#45
Gillymann New Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Mermut said: ↑ “That will be 'fun' with the various 'cure or bad things happen' and the other 'DON'T cure or bad things happen' dets ” Not to mention the random afk mechanics mercs have.

11-02-2018, 01:53 PM	#46
Earar Well-Known Member Posts: n/a	mercs too have to go to small room !!