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Old 06-21-2012, 01:16 AM   #31
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Windstalker wrote:

The designers will get into the details tomorrow in the webcast and we will post a few articles.  Ultimately, we need your help to Test the changes next week, but overall I think they are a good move on the part of our mechanics team that will help game play overall.

The changes are not specific to PvP.  I hesitate to say anything in advance of the webcast for fear of wild speculation, but the changes....

Nah, I'll let them tell you tomorrow.

Holy crap, a Windstalker sighting.

Hope must be coming soon for tanks. Expect changes the next time she posts...in a year or so.

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Old 06-21-2012, 02:28 AM   #32
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

So from what I get so far.

They are buffing Paladin heals (not confirmed how.) and changing amends. (negative, they are gonna nerf it.)

They are buff SK heals. (not confirmed how.)

They are buffing some fighters DPS and Hate Gain. (not comfirmed how.)

The changes effect crusaders the most though.

Thats what I get from rumors.

Everything you've posted in this thread (and this post, in particular) is speculation. My guess is that the fighter changes will entail something that neither you, nor anyone else could have possibly foreseen.

This isn't necessarily a good thing and I'm sort of curious as to what sort of internal testing, if any, has gone into these changes based on the developers requesting absolutely zero feedback from the fighter community in regard to the matter.

I definitely can't seem then nerfing any class and even further alienating any portion of an already dwindling player base.

(By the way, what fighter in EQ2 besides you wants fighter heals to crit? If the difference between you surviving as a main tank is your heals critting, you need to recruit new healers. The only time I ever use my heals are for the DR attached to one of them and the % for the other to reset the DR one.)

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Old 06-21-2012, 02:48 AM   #33
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

"Fighters Non-Percent based Healing Abilities have been lowered, but can now be critically applied."

Something needs to happen so non-brawler/guardians can also tank POW.

Its silly that brawlers have a higher healing parse then Paladins/SKs.

Great more nerfs where is Live Gamer when ya need to firesale liquidate

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Old 06-21-2012, 02:48 AM   #34
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hoosierdaddy wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

So from what I get so far.

They are buffing Paladin heals (not confirmed how.) and changing amends. (negative, they are gonna nerf it.)

They are buff SK heals. (not confirmed how.)

They are buffing some fighters DPS and Hate Gain. (not comfirmed how.)

The changes effect crusaders the most though.

Thats what I get from rumors.

Everything you've posted in this thread (and this post, in particular) is speculation. My guess is that the fighter changes will entail something that neither you, nor anyone else could have possibly foreseen.

This isn't necessarily a good thing and I'm sort of curious as to what sort of internal testing, if any, has gone into these changes based on the developers requesting absolutely zero feedback from the fighter community in regard to the matter.

I definitely can't seem then nerfing any class and even further alienating any portion of an already dwindling player base.

(By the way, what fighter in EQ2 besides you wants fighter heals to crit? If the difference between you surviving as a main tank is your heals critting, you need to recruit new healers. The only time I ever use my heals are for the DR attached to one of them and the % for the other to reset the DR one.)

I think they are leaning towards generic more than specific changes to the fighters...prob the easiest things for them: prob raising if not removing the threat cap and bumping or adjust taunts upward....My raid main is a temp but I also play a guard and a pally...and aside from wanting even a nominal heal of any sort on the guard(highly doubtful thats coming) I dont think they are going to be toying around with fighter heals anytime soon.

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Old 06-21-2012, 05:35 AM   #35
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For those that have been following the fighter discussions they might know that I created a thread called:

All Tanks are currently Underpowered Post GU63.

There was a pretty good discussion going on in there for a while and many of the master tank players agreed that the fighter archtype is in trouble. I am sure the devs had a chance to read it as well. If so I have a really good idea of where this is going.

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Old 06-21-2012, 08:17 AM   #36
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I haven't really had any threat problems since I started playing endgame stuff again. The only people that rip really are other tanks. And in my guild it is not a problem because we know how to tow the line and work together. More aggro is not something I would care to see for the guardian class.

Most players in my guild are better geard than my character, and I didn't really have much trouble holding pug hate as a fresh 92..

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Old 06-21-2012, 10:31 AM   #37
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[email protected] wrote:

I haven't really had any threat problems since I started playing endgame stuff again. The only people that rip really are other tanks. And in my guild it is not a problem because we know how to tow the line and work together. More aggro is not something I would care to see for the guardian class.

Most players in my guild are better geard than my character, and I didn't really have much trouble holding pug hate as a fresh 92..

I'm glad to hear that you don't have problems in the aggro department but I certainly do on my Guardian.  I'm raiding and have a pretty good spread of gear but aggro control is a complete MESS.  That is even after adding hate gain adorns to everything I can find, hitting up the AA's to increase it, etc.

With that said - yes, I tend to lose aggro mostly to other tanks (not always) BUT that is a problem if I'm the one that is meant to be holding the mob.  The other tanks are able to pull aggro off of me without even trying - they don't have to taunt, etc. - they have to purposely turn off things and lower their own DPS to give me a shot to keep it.  That's a problem imho.

And that is the other part of this.  My DPS compared to SK's, Pallys and even Monk classes is laughable.  They are doing (easily) 2x to 4x my DPS on every encounter.  And we all know that DPS is at least as important, if not the most important, aspect to keeping aggro since our taunt values are SO low.  And before you point out that my DPS simply sucks (and it does) I thought it was just me as well until I compared my parses to other raid-geared Guardians and saw that they came in at the same level.  It ain't just me. ;p

With ALL of that said I don't know how you can say "More aggro is not something I would care to see for the guardian class."  Even IF you never lose aggro, how could making it less spikey and manageable be something bad?

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Old 06-21-2012, 10:49 AM   #38
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I haven't really had any threat problems since I started playing endgame stuff again. The only people that rip really are other tanks. And in my guild it is not a problem because we know how to tow the line and work together. More aggro is not something I would care to see for the guardian class.

Most players in my guild are better geard than my character, and I didn't really have much trouble holding pug hate as a fresh 92..

I'm glad to hear that you don't have problems in the aggro department but I certainly do on my Guardian.  I'm raiding and have a pretty good spread of gear but aggro control is a complete MESS.  That is even after adding hate gain adorns to everything I can find, hitting up the AA's to increase it, etc.

With that said - yes, I tend to lose aggro mostly to other tanks (not always) BUT that is a problem if I'm the one that is meant to be holding the mob.  The other tanks are able to pull aggro off of me without even trying - they don't have to taunt, etc. - they have to purposely turn off things and lower their own DPS to give me a shot to keep it.  That's a problem imho.

And that is the other part of this.  My DPS compared to SK's, Pallys and even Monk classes is laughable.  They are doing (easily) 2x to 4x my DPS on every encounter.  And we all know that DPS is at least as important, if not the most important, aspect to keeping aggro since our taunt values are SO low.  And before you point out that my DPS simply sucks (and it does) I thought it was just me as well until I compared my parses to other raid-geared Guardians and saw that they came in at the same level.  It ain't just me. ;p

With ALL of that said I don't know how you can say "More aggro is not something I would care to see for the guardian class."  Even IF you never lose aggro, how could making it less spikey and manageable be something bad?

On our raids I'm pulling about half as much DPS on my OT pally as our MT guardian. When I MT I put out about double the DPS I do when I'm OT. Sure gear factors in but more than that its all the buffs and reactive procs that give the MT a real advantage in DPS.

That being said next to our guardian I'm finding snap agro to be more important than constant generation. Even more important is being able to reduce the amount of incomming damage. Paladins use to have a real advantage in that department but it doesn't feel like it anymore. Mythic buff should give me effectively 24% damage reduction but it seriously doesn't feel like it works. Either that or the guard has as much or more than I do because there are situations where the guard will survive but I'll just drop dead to spike damage. 

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Old 06-21-2012, 10:50 AM   #39
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I haven't really had any threat problems since I started playing endgame stuff again. The only people that rip really are other tanks. And in my guild it is not a problem because we know how to tow the line and work together. More aggro is not something I would care to see for the guardian class.

Most players in my guild are better geard than my character, and I didn't really have much trouble holding pug hate as a fresh 92..

I'm glad to hear that you don't have problems in the aggro department but I certainly do on my Guardian.  I'm raiding and have a pretty good spread of gear but aggro control is a complete MESS.  That is even after adding hate gain adorns to everything I can find, hitting up the AA's to increase it, etc.

With that said - yes, I tend to lose aggro mostly to other tanks (not always) BUT that is a problem if I'm the one that is meant to be holding the mob.  The other tanks are able to pull aggro off of me without even trying - they don't have to taunt, etc. - they have to purposely turn off things and lower their own DPS to give me a shot to keep it.  That's a problem imho.

And that is the other part of this.  My DPS compared to SK's, Pallys and even Monk classes is laughable.  They are doing (easily) 2x to 4x my DPS on every encounter.  And we all know that DPS is at least as important, if not the most important, aspect to keeping aggro since our taunt values are SO low.  And before you point out that my DPS simply sucks (and it does) I thought it was just me as well until I compared my parses to other raid-geared Guardians and saw that they came in at the same level.  It ain't just me. ;p

With ALL of that said I don't know how you can say "More aggro is not something I would care to see for the guardian class."  Even IF you never lose aggro, how could making it less spikey and manageable be something bad?

The greatest mistake I ever made in my life was betraying my berserker to guardian had two berserkers so thought I should have little verity I find the class utterly useless in most situations for tanking and playing game zero dps not so great taunts the super long recasts make them trivial to even exist since they are always down for 75% of pulls ect will proble betray back to berserker and have two berserkers again so I have more fun classes to play then useless collectables and this also reminds me Please add a class change potion so I can change my guardian into something that is fun and useful

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Old 06-21-2012, 12:24 PM   #40
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Meirril wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I haven't really had any threat problems since I started playing endgame stuff again. The only people that rip really are other tanks. And in my guild it is not a problem because we know how to tow the line and work together. More aggro is not something I would care to see for the guardian class.

Most players in my guild are better geard than my character, and I didn't really have much trouble holding pug hate as a fresh 92..

I'm glad to hear that you don't have problems in the aggro department but I certainly do on my Guardian.  I'm raiding and have a pretty good spread of gear but aggro control is a complete MESS.  That is even after adding hate gain adorns to everything I can find, hitting up the AA's to increase it, etc.

With that said - yes, I tend to lose aggro mostly to other tanks (not always) BUT that is a problem if I'm the one that is meant to be holding the mob.  The other tanks are able to pull aggro off of me without even trying - they don't have to taunt, etc. - they have to purposely turn off things and lower their own DPS to give me a shot to keep it.  That's a problem imho.

And that is the other part of this.  My DPS compared to SK's, Pallys and even Monk classes is laughable.  They are doing (easily) 2x to 4x my DPS on every encounter.  And we all know that DPS is at least as important, if not the most important, aspect to keeping aggro since our taunt values are SO low.  And before you point out that my DPS simply sucks (and it does) I thought it was just me as well until I compared my parses to other raid-geared Guardians and saw that they came in at the same level.  It ain't just me. ;p

With ALL of that said I don't know how you can say "More aggro is not something I would care to see for the guardian class."  Even IF you never lose aggro, how could making it less spikey and manageable be something bad?

On our raids I'm pulling about half as much DPS on my OT pally as our MT guardian. When I MT I put out about double the DPS I do when I'm OT. Sure gear factors in but more than that its all the buffs and reactive procs that give the MT a real advantage in DPS.

That being said next to our guardian I'm finding snap agro to be more important than constant generation. Even more important is being able to reduce the amount of incomming damage. Paladins use to have a real advantage in that department but it doesn't feel like it anymore. Mythic buff should give me effectively 24% damage reduction but it seriously doesn't feel like it works. Either that or the guard has as much or more than I do because there are situations where the guard will survive but I'll just drop dead to spike damage. 

I'll agree that group make-up does play a role in some of the items I mentioned above.  The difference is that it plays a much larger role for a Guardian than it does the other tanks (I'm not trying to turn this thread into a 'woe is Guardian' one - but it is the class I have direct experience with).   A Pally or SK can still shine in a less than optimal group make up where a Guardian is seriously limited unless the stars align.

As for snap aggro - you are correct.  That is just about the ONLY major thing that I bring to the table over the other tank classes and it is of moderate usefulness on raids unless the boss is scripted to make it needed.  Even then - an SK or Pally can still fill that role in most cases if they work together - the Guardian abilities just allows us to ignore cooperation in favor of snapping it. ;p

I'm really interested to hear what they are going to propose today but I suspect it will be a) lower DPS of all tanks to stop the T1 DPS classes from feeling bad, b) attempt to raise Hate by raising the caps and c) try to address the lack of DPS by increasing taunts amounts across the board.

All of those items are doomed to fail - imho - as they have tried similar things in the past and can't seem to get the balance right.  If they could JUST make taunts have the exact same aggro holding power as the same amount of DPS (I'm sure it is supposed to but it doesn't seem to translate) and then increase it to take over 1:1 for any DPS loss/gaps then it might work.  But that never happens.

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Old 06-21-2012, 01:42 PM   #41
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Novusod wrote:

For those that have been following the fighter discussions they might know that I created a thread called:

All Tanks are currently Underpowered Post GU63.

There was a pretty good discussion going on in there for a while and many of the master tank players agreed that the fighter archtype is in trouble. I am sure the devs had a chance to read it as well. If so I have a really good idea of where this is going.

Accept that thread is largely rubbish.

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Old 06-21-2012, 01:51 PM   #42
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I haven't really had any threat problems since I started playing endgame stuff again. The only people that rip really are other tanks. And in my guild it is not a problem because we know how to tow the line and work together. More aggro is not something I would care to see for the guardian class.

Most players in my guild are better geard than my character, and I didn't really have much trouble holding pug hate as a fresh 92..

I'm glad to hear that you don't have problems in the aggro department but I certainly do on my Guardian.  I'm raiding and have a pretty good spread of gear but aggro control is a complete MESS.  That is even after adding hate gain adorns to everything I can find, hitting up the AA's to increase it, etc.

I do agree agro is a bit of a mess.

Here is a simple example of what irritates the heck out of me:

I'm on guard parsing 180k on a name.  I'm running 100% hate mod (actually frequently over cap around 106).

Our OT monk is parsing 200k on same name.  He's running 35% hate mod.

The 75% more effective hate mod is not enough to consistently overcome his hate generation.

Now yes of course there are more variables, I've got a 15% siphon on  the BL doing 400k.  I'm getting the feed from the in group coercer and I verified the coercer in my group is outparsing the one in his group.  He has no feeds, and only his transfer on me from his avoidance buff.

All of those variables considered, the amount of additional dps he'd need to be doing to be ripping from me is fairly significant, yet its happening fairly frequently.  And yes I've parsed for threat increasers.

At its core, I think something is fishy with the hate mechanics, but I've not yet been able to put my finger on exactly what it is.  And I only see it in regards to holding from other fighters.  I have no issue holding off the dps classes spiking up 800k-1mil dps.

Uncapping positive hate mod seems like an obvious change to be made.  I can't really think of any reason why it should be capped.

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Old 06-21-2012, 02:08 PM   #43
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I certainly hope they do something to make paladins into a viable raid mt again. One stoneskin on loh which is on a very long recast and useless 8-12k heals when mobs are hitting 20-30k+ ma/flurries just makes no sense. Not being able to stoneskin 40-60s recast dt's on drunder hm/pow mobs is silly. Divine Aura is useless as the majority of hm mobs can easily hit over 50% max hp & our 8second block is also pretty lulz while other tanks have 20sec parrry/riposte ect. We also have the least deathsaves of all tanks (1).

Amends is also pretty useless as any mt with have hate transfer capped from scout/coercer ect. Also note that people complain about amends while guardians have grp hate reduction, hate transfer, ect ect.

Paladins severely need to be buffed up.

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Old 06-21-2012, 02:19 PM   #44
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[email protected] wrote:

Yeah, I'm not excited about even the idea of change at the moment.  Maybe everyone is too young or too forgetful to remember Aerliks proposed fighter changes.  That was the last time SoE took a serious effort at this task and that pile of garbage was the worst possible thing that could have gone live.

Yep, and before that, I still have nightmares about LU13...

At the time, I was 100% Guardian and I stuck with it until TSO beta.

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Old 06-21-2012, 02:42 PM   #45
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Bloodrage wrote:

We (paladins) also have the least deathsaves of all tanks (1).

Guards also get 1 death save.

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Old 06-21-2012, 03:58 PM   #46
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Saying fighters have agro issues is silly, i'm an bruiser doing 200-250k holding agro off an 600-800k warlock. He never spikes above 30% agro if that, however my offtank constantly is the one who is getting high agro.

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Old 06-21-2012, 04:36 PM   #47
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[email protected] wrote:

Saying fighters have agro issues is silly, i'm an bruiser doing 200-250k holding agro off an 600-800k warlock. He never spikes above 30% agro if that, however my offtank constantly is the one who is getting high agro.

I don't think anyone said ALL fighters have aggro issues - and that, in and of itself, is the issue.  Massive inconsistencies.

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Old 06-21-2012, 04:40 PM   #48
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Saying fighters have agro issues is silly, i'm an bruiser doing 200-250k holding agro off an 600-800k warlock. He never spikes above 30% agro if that, however my offtank constantly is the one who is getting high agro.

I don't think anyone said ALL fighters have aggro issues - and that, in and of itself, is the issue.  Massive inconsistencies.

The issue is specifically around hate generation between fighters.  I agree with others I can hold agro off someone doing 1mil dps just fine (non-fighter).  However as I outlined I can't hold agro off a fighter doing 20k more than me even when my hate mod is 3x his.

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Old 06-21-2012, 04:46 PM   #49
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Saying fighters have agro issues is silly, i'm an bruiser doing 200-250k holding agro off an 600-800k warlock. He never spikes above 30% agro if that, however my offtank constantly is the one who is getting high agro.

I don't think anyone said ALL fighters have aggro issues - and that, in and of itself, is the issue.  Massive inconsistencies.

The issue is specifically around hate generation between fighters.  I agree with others I can hold agro off someone doing 1mil dps just fine (non-fighter).  However as I outlined I can't hold agro off a fighter doing 20k more than me even when my hate mod is 3x his.

I can agree with this - the primary issue is other fighters yanking aggro even when they make an effort not to (in theory) and I'm doing everything I can to keep it.

There are still some (albeit rare) instances where a DPS class will get something and not let go though.

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Old 06-21-2012, 05:50 PM   #50
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Saying fighters have agro issues is silly, i'm an bruiser doing 200-250k holding agro off an 600-800k warlock. He never spikes above 30% agro if that, however my offtank constantly is the one who is getting high agro.

I don't think anyone said ALL fighters have aggro issues - and that, in and of itself, is the issue.  Massive inconsistencies.

The issue is specifically around hate generation between fighters.  I agree with others I can hold agro off someone doing 1mil dps just fine (non-fighter).  However as I outlined I can't hold agro off a fighter doing 20k more than me even when my hate mod is 3x his.

I can agree with this - the primary issue is other fighters yanking aggro even when they make an effort not to (in theory) and I'm doing everything I can to keep it.

There are still some (albeit rare) instances where a DPS class will get something and not let go though.

How is your agro without dirge+coercer+swash/assassin?

The problem is that Fighters aren't even the ones generating most of their agro.

There is also a real problem with a T1 DPS dropping a 4-5mil nuke in a single shot while Fighters get a 60k taunt and a 30k CA.

Than most important is the balance issue between Fighters themselves.  All said and done with the group set up a Fighter has to have to maintain agro there are a couple Fighters that have a huge advantage in end game content due to a large avoidance advantage, a superior Death Save recastable in-combat, and superior saves.

Its going to be interesting to see what they come up with.  But this is long over-due since DoV launch.

Hopefully this is a serious effort to have raids want to utilize at least 4 Fighters in a raid ALL the time.

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Old 06-21-2012, 09:47 PM   #51
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So what did they talk about? I checked the video a couple minutes in, and all they talked about the entire time was Battlegrounds, so I didn't really pay attention.

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Old 06-21-2012, 11:50 PM   #52
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Okay here's the general things Fighters are getting:

all our temp buffs that give damage reduction are now immune to Strikethrough.

all fighter heals will no longer be effected by Potency, but will all also be percentage heals

we're all getting a new stance at 20. it's called Recklessness, and supposedly will give us DPS class damage, and reduce our ability to take hits to DPS class levels.

they siad there will be lots of class specific tweaks that they didn't go into that we'll have to read the notes for on tuesday when it hits Test.

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Old 06-22-2012, 12:36 AM   #53
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Great, so they can't balance fighters as tanks, so they decided to turn us all into hybrid DPS'ers instead. This is going to work out wonderfully, I can already see it. Not only will we be dealing with balance issues between tanks, but we'll also start being compared with DPS classes, and lord knows there's no competition in that department. But hey, if they want to let me sacrifice my survivability to become a DPS class whenever I don't feel like tanking, I won't complain. But twenty plat says the guys who have to remain DPS 100% of the time will.

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Old 06-22-2012, 12:38 AM   #54
hoosierdaddy

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[email protected] wrote:

Okay here's the general things Fighters are getting:

all our temp buffs that give damage reduction are now immune to Strikethrough.

all fighter heals will no longer be effected by Potency, but will all also be percentage heals

we're all getting a new stance at 20. it's called Recklessness, and supposedly will give us DPS class damage, and reduce our ability to take hits to DPS class levels.

they siad there will be lots of class specific tweaks that they didn't go into that we'll have to read the notes for on tuesday when it hits Test.

So, basically, all non-brawler tanks are getting (temporarily) brawlerized?

Why don't they just grant strikethrough immunity to every defensive stance and a version of Amends to every fighter?

The only differences will be in our animations.

Edit: Disregarding the DPS stuff, which is mostly irrelevant and antithetical to raid tanking. This is just a means of working more tanks into raids without directly addressing difficult balance problems.

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Old 06-22-2012, 12:54 AM   #55
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I watched the video and the Fighter Points they made were:

1.  Fighters get an Reckless offensive stance that increases damage of Combat Arts.

This sounds a lot like the failed Fighter Revamp that was tested in TSO. This type was tested for months and months in 2009 before finally being scrapped. The whole idea of turning a fighter into a scout was massively rejected by the community because it does not work. The Point to bringing a 3rd and 4rd tank to the raid was in case the MT went down the back up tank(s) would pick up the named. If the back up tanks go splat then there is no point bringing them.

Bottom Line here is: No Way, DO NOT WANT, No No No.

2.  Fighter Heals become percentage based and are no longer affected by Potency.

This is actually a Nerf to real fighter survivability because of the way death prevents work. All death prevents would have to be 100% heals to be viable in current raiding and hard heroic content.

3.  Some form of strikethrough immunity is added to all fighters.

4.  Class Focuses are removed from adornments and new focus tree added but this effects all classes.

What really needs to happen:

- Uncap hate gain so Fighters aren't as dependent on transfers from other classes.

- Give fighters a way to deal with mechanics of strikethrough 2.0 (see fiery feedback, and thunderclap)

- Fighter is the hardest role in the game right now so please cut us some slack. Look at the way things were comparatively to how they were in Sentinels Fate. Fighters were much more powerful then they are now. This general nerf to fighters over the last two years has really hurt the game.

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Old 06-22-2012, 01:16 AM   #56
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Novusod wrote:

I watched the video and the Fighter Points they made were:

1.  Fighters get an Reckless offensive stance that increases damage of Combat Arts.

This sounds a lot like the failed Fighter Revamp that was tested in TSO. This type was tested for months and months in 2009 before finally being scrapped. The whole idea of turning a fighter into a scout was massively rejected by the community because it does not work. The Point to bringing a 3rd and 4rd tank to the raid was in case the MT went down the back up tank(s) would pick up the named. If the back up tanks go splat then there is no point bringing them.

Bottom Line here is: No Way, DO NOT WANT, No No No.

2.  Fighter Heals become percentage based and are no longer affected by Potency.

This is actually a Nerf to real fighter survivability because of the way death prevents work. All death prevents would have to be 100% heals to be viable in current raiding and hard heroic content.

3.  Some form of strikethrough immunity is added to all fighters.

4.  Class Focuses are removed from adornments and new focus tree added but this effects all classes.

What really needs to happen:

- Uncap hate gain so Fighters aren't as dependent on transfers from other classes.

- Give fighters a way to deal with mechanics of strikethrough 2.0 (see fiery feedback, and thunderclap)

- Fighter is the hardest role in the game right now so please cut us some slack. Look at the way things were comparatively to how they were in Sentinels Fate. Fighters were much more powerful then they are now. This general nerf to fighters over the last two years has really hurt the game.

You are crazy Obano.  These changes are great, and recklessness sounds great too.  As long as they handle the % based stuff properly which should be easy to do with testing feedback it won't be a nerf.  Fighters don't have a hate problem and there is nothing wrong with classes transferring hate to you its part of the whole overall raid dynamic where each class brings something.  Thunderclap and Fiery Feedback really are nothing huge stop complaining about it.

Overall I like the changes so that plates can get immunities when running their temps (Also brawlers better get those same immunities for our temps while in offensive!)  I like the idea of a DPS stance that will allow a non tanking brawler not to be a waste of a raid spot. 

The reason why the old fighter changes were widely rejected was simply because it was going to make them into taunt bots, this is entirely different.

Also they don't even have to touch deathsaves, they can still function the way they do.

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Old 06-22-2012, 01:36 AM   #57
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Nice deeps produces tons of aggro.

Nice deeps increases popularity and respect.

Respected tanks' orders are followed more accurately and promptly.

This is a great new tweak to tank classes IMHO.

Gimme!

Thanks a ton Developers.   We really appreciate it and do notice all your hard work.

Grand the beserker, Freeport.

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Old 06-22-2012, 03:13 AM   #58
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Novusod wrote:

I watched the video and the Fighter Points they made were:

1.  Fighters get an Reckless offensive stance that increases damage of Combat Arts.

This sounds a lot like the failed Fighter Revamp that was tested in TSO. This type was tested for months and months in 2009 before finally being scrapped. The whole idea of turning a fighter into a scout was massively rejected by the community because it does not work. The Point to bringing a 3rd and 4rd tank to the raid was in case the MT went down the back up tank(s) would pick up the named. If the back up tanks go splat then there is no point bringing them.

Bottom Line here is: No Way, DO NOT WANT, No No No.

2.  Fighter Heals become percentage based and are no longer affected by Potency.

This is actually a Nerf to real fighter survivability because of the way death prevents work. All death prevents would have to be 100% heals to be viable in current raiding and hard heroic content.

3.  Some form of strikethrough immunity is added to all fighters.

4.  Class Focuses are removed from adornments and new focus tree added but this effects all classes.

What really needs to happen:

- Uncap hate gain so Fighters aren't as dependent on transfers from other classes.

- Give fighters a way to deal with mechanics of strikethrough 2.0 (see fiery feedback, and thunderclap)

- Fighter is the hardest role in the game right now so please cut us some slack. Look at the way things were comparatively to how they were in Sentinels Fate. Fighters were much more powerful then they are now. This general nerf to fighters over the last two years has really hurt the game.

1) changes nothing raid wise. Well, in low end raid forces you might see fighters in DPS roles.

2) As a paladin (you know, the fighter with 6 healing abilities, 8 if you count life taps) percentage based means my heals might be worth touching instead of waiting for any attack to refresh. Not that you want to heal as a paladin. If your depending on self-healing something is horribly wrong.

4) Just asking, what is bad about fighters depending on other classes for hate generation? Raids arn't about you, its about what everybody brings to the table. If anything you'd want more classes to get transfers so it isn't so obvious what your MT group should look like class wise. To me that sounds just as bad as saying that since I'm a paladin I should be a good enough healer to handle group or raid content. Yes, agro management is a big part of raid tanking but your making it sound like it needs to be all you when your suppose to have 5 other people helping you do your job.

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Old 06-22-2012, 04:02 AM   #59
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Good change... yeah.

Also: "At level 20 mages will now get a defensive stance making them much less squishy"

I mean, it's only fair, right?

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Old 06-22-2012, 04:14 AM   #60
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It changes things a little bit. it now means hopefully that a Paladin can actually get in a raid as a dps/backup healer if there's not a 'tanking' role for him. and that other fighters can become 'dpsers' worth bringing. in fact they specifically use that as an example...bringing a paladin to a raid as a backup healer/dpser rather then a tanking position. so I think 'recklessness' is going to give a HUGE dps increase at a HUGE survivability hit. we'll become maybe psuedo rogues? as I doubt we'll become ranger/assassinish in damage.

percentage heals are wonderful as a paladin...depending on if the ward becomes a percent heal..and that means the group heal will be worth casting to. especially in little group were your healer is a merc...or doing 'older' content that people mostly ignore now like the instances to help a BL with thier epic or thier epic kills...or even the SS instances. be nice to help group heal or the like if someone eats a knockback or a manadrain at a bad time, and actually have those heals be worth a darn.

but we'll have to see how it plays out on Test. it might be great, it might not be. I'm hoping it'll be as good as I think it will be in my head though.

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