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Old 07-19-2005, 06:14 AM   #1
Jindris

 
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It seems that since EQ2 was released, every update has some changed some element in the game that takes away from the challenege. The penalties for death when EQ2 was released were nothing compared to other MMO's (including EQ1). Then experience debt was lowered, making the penalties for death even less. Then they made it so that you don't even have to click on your shard. Then they made it so that you can see your group mates shards. That, as well as all the other changes, may have been good news for plat farmers who run multiple accounts at once and die alot, but each change was bad news for me and many other people who want a challenge.
 
H.O.'s were changed at some point, making it so that they cant be broken by using the wrong ability. That was a real let down for me. It made them less challenging. I wish SOE had not made that change to them, but instead made H.O.'s more effective and worth the challenge. I think this is still a big area in wich the game can improve. It seems that H.O.'s have been stuffed into some closet. If SOE wants japanese customers, they are going to have to really changed the way H.O.'s are now, because in my experience, their favorite thing in FFXI was skill-chains. I believe H.O.'s are SOE's attempt to mimic FFXI's skill chains (since SOE and SE (square-enix) work with eachother now). But I guarrantee that SOE's japanese community is not going to be very happy with them. I'm not.
 
The new change to the guild patron system is going to take the cake. It takes away the challenge of leveling a guild, and it takes away from what it means to be a guild patron. If SOE is really serious about this, they should do away with the patron system all together, meaning that every member of a guild can effect the guilds level, and that there will be no status to switch on and off that decides wich members effect the guild level. It does not make any sense to do away with the penalties of losing patrons, but still being able to choose who are patrons or not.
 
With all the kinds of changes I've seen in EQ2 since release, its more and more obvious that EQ2 was not ready to be released. Were are in BETA now, and the reason I say that is because playing EQ2 has made me feel like some sort of guinnea pig in a hamster wheel. EQ2 was too easy of a game at release. If anything make the game more challenging.
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Old 07-19-2005, 07:03 AM   #2
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I don't like that this message was one-starred.  This is such a common theme that a new thread was NOT necessary - but the content is not 1-star material - I agree with the theme of the post).  Fixing the karma...
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Old 07-19-2005, 07:13 AM   #3
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For everyone information, the person who one-starred me not only did NOT give a response, but he didn't even read it. Right after I hit submit and went back to the thread, it was already one-starred.
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Old 07-19-2005, 11:10 AM   #4
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Edit: changed my mind. SMILEY

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Old 07-19-2005, 12:07 PM   #5
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I think most problem is not a challanging but game bocome slightly less and less rewarding.
 
Up to "challenging" go look for rewamped RAID content.
 
First thing people should get before complaining about such terms like "challanging" etc- this is a game! No one must work hard to lvl and see new things/new content. Looks like some people withouta proper family/work want make from this game a surrogate fpr their lifes.
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Old 07-19-2005, 12:51 PM   #6
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Andre Z wrote:
I think most problem is not a challanging but game bocome slightly less and less rewarding.
 
Up to "challenging" go look for rewamped RAID content.
 
First thing people should get before complaining about such terms like "challanging" etc- this is a game! No one must work hard to lvl and see new things/new content. Looks like some people withouta proper family/work want make from this game a surrogate fpr their lifes.



Why is that always when somebody asks for the game to be challenging they are told to have no life outside the game? What I understand from your reply is that you want to log in and kill a mob and see a master chest drop. Wouldn't it be easier if they gave you a /god_mode command?
 
I agree with the OP.. each time I level another toon and pass through the different zones they seem less and less of a challenge. Take EL for example.. 6-7 months ago, those wasps were nasty..now most of them are non aggro and those that are aggro, are just a nuissance and hardly a challenge.
 
The game should provide area's where people with less time or dedication can go and still get decent loot and xp, but there should also be more challenging content, and not only at the end-game. I raided quite a bit since I dinged 50 a couple of months back, but even that gets boring after some time. It's good they added more challenge to the raid mobs, but not everybody is into that. And for the people who like to level alts, having to go through level after level of non challenging content before you can get to the challenges is just not fair. Luckily the quests keep it at least a bit interesting, since I don't like to just grind..
 
I think however Splitpaw was a big step in the right direction again ..mobs scaling in level, selectable difficutly on instances.. I liked it very much.. however content like this shouldn't be restricted only to people who bought the adventure pack. But it sure is a step in the right direction
 
 
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Old 07-19-2005, 02:21 PM   #7
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Somebody who complains about the automatic shard pickup must be out of this world.
 
But then, it was so much fun clicking on that white corpse man I was always disappointed when I retrieved the shard and couldnt click on that funny white corpse anymore!
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Old 07-19-2005, 02:38 PM   #8
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RexTenebrarum wrote:


Andre Z wrote:
I think most problem is not a challanging but game bocome slightly less and less rewarding.
 
Up to "challenging" go look for rewamped RAID content.
 
First thing people should get before complaining about such terms like "challanging" etc- this is a game! No one must work hard to lvl and see new things/new content. Looks like some people withouta proper family/work want make from this game a surrogate fpr their lifes.



Why is that always when somebody asks for the game to be challenging they are told to have no life outside the game? What I understand from your reply is that you want to log in and kill a mob and see a master chest drop. Wouldn't it be easier if they gave you a /god_mode command?
 
I agree with the OP.. each time I level another toon and pass through the different zones they seem less and less of a challenge. Take EL for example.. 6-7 months ago, those wasps were nasty..now most of them are non aggro and those that are aggro, are just a nuissance and hardly a challenge.
 
The game should provide area's where people with less time or dedication can go and still get decent loot and xp, but there should also be more challenging content, and not only at the end-game. I raided quite a bit since I dinged 50 a couple of months back, but even that gets boring after some time. It's good they added more challenge to the raid mobs, but not everybody is into that. And for the people who like to level alts, having to go through level after level of non challenging content before you can get to the challenges is just not fair. Luckily the quests keep it at least a bit interesting, since I don't like to just grind..
 
I think however Splitpaw was a big step in the right direction again ..mobs scaling in level, selectable difficutly on instances.. I liked it very much.. however content like this shouldn't be restricted only to people who bought the adventure pack. But it sure is a step in the right direction
 
 


Already got godmode in game it's called Trial of Harclave. Just wiating for them to add it as a potion to have godmode anywhere lol.
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Old 07-19-2005, 03:00 PM   #9
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I agree with the OP.. each time I level another toon and pass through the different zones they seem less and less of a challenge. Take EL for example.. 6-7 months ago, those wasps were nasty..now most of them are non aggro and those that are aggro, are just a nuissance and hardly a challenge.

 
I bet your twink is better equiped than you main character was that you originally went through that zone 6-7 months ago...  I know my level 34 twink is wearing pristine imbued rare crafted BP and Legs, and pretty much all pristine crafted armor and jewelery... None of this I was able to get made, or could even afford had it been available, when I leveled my first character...
 
What has made things less of a challange is the fact that alot of people have hit 50 and have started new characters...  They have the money to equip thoes new characters in gear that is alot better then what they could afford to equip thier original character....   People have also devolped thier tradeskills, it is no longer nearly impossible to find someone able to make the items you desire, where 6-7 months ago there was maybe 1-2 people that could make the items, now there are many...
 
You can not compare the game from when it was new, to how it is now...  When it was new there was not level 50 characters, there was not the amount of money available as there is now...  Things were harder because there was none of the stuff available that there is today....  You could not find armor, weapons, Adept 1 spells (let alone Adept 3 or master), but not the market is flooded with all of that, and it was not SOE who put it all on the market, it was the players...  It's not that they are making the game easier, we are the ones making the game easier...  It because of all the work that people put into leveling over the past 6-7 months that has made the game easier...
 
So, if you want to blame someone for making the game less challenging....  Blame yourself, blame me, blame anyone that has leveled through the game and made it possible for others to have an easier time...  We're the ones that have made it less challanging...
 
 
 
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Old 07-19-2005, 03:39 PM   #10
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Its not matter whether i want get master I just on logging nor i won't but point is players should have an possibility to get their masters wihtout RAIDS and big guilds. Its generally. More detailed - there should be thrill if anyone killed a tought mob and tryed to open a chest - there no single lettle thrill just because every single mob drops pretty same stuff and all of it just useless. Useless = only Wholesaler show some interest for those items/books/corper parts.
 
So this game lack not a chellange but reward.
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Old 07-19-2005, 04:38 PM   #11
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Aienaa wrote:

I agree with the OP.. each time I level another toon and pass through the different zones they seem less and less of a challenge. Take EL for example.. 6-7 months ago, those wasps were nasty..now most of them are non aggro and those that are aggro, are just a nuissance and hardly a challenge.

 
I bet your twink is better equiped than you main character was that you originally went through that zone 6-7 months ago...  I know my level 34 twink is wearing pristine imbued rare crafted BP and Legs, and pretty much all pristine crafted armor and jewelery... None of this I was able to get made, or could even afford had it been available, when I leveled my first character...
 
 
So, if you want to blame someone for making the game less challenging....  Blame yourself, blame me, blame anyone that has leveled through the game and made it possible for others to have an easier time...  We're the ones that have made it less challanging...

Yes.. all my older alts are in Legendary gear, and I do agree that this makes the game even less challenging.

To counter this I've started equipping my newest alts with looted/vendor bought "crap" gear.. and guess what.. it's still easier then before. Is this becasue of being more skilled at the game then before? Or because I know the zones inside and out? I don't think so...

I think it's because a lot of the zones have been downgraded (made less challenging).. to take my wasp example in EL.. the players didn't remove those ^^ or the aggro from those mobs.. those changes were done by SOE ..And it's not just EL.. it's also in other zones that this has happened.. So no.. I will not blame you or myself.. the things the players did to make it easier can be countered.. the downgrading of the mobs or the game as a whole, can't.

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Old 07-19-2005, 06:07 PM   #12
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"Why is that always when somebody asks for the game to be challenging they are told to have no life outside the game? What I understand from your reply is that you want to log in and kill a mob and see a master chest drop. Wouldn't it be easier if they gave you a /god_mode command? "
 
Cuz you imagine it maybe? Really he never tells anyone to go outside. I'll ask you this though, why is it that every time someone says it's not challenging enough (or too) someone mentions master chests?
 
 
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Old 07-19-2005, 06:30 PM   #13
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To counter this I've started equipping my newest alts with looted/vendor bought "crap" gear.. and guess what.. it's still easier then before. Is this becasue of being more skilled at the game then before? Or because I know the zones inside and out? I don't think so...


The stuff you call vendor bought "crap" gear is still better than what we had in the beginning...  I remember going to the NPC merchants and buying weapons/armor off them... they had no stats and usually less AC or damage than dropped stuff....  The stuff your calling "crap" would have been great items back them


I think it's because a lot of the zones have been downgraded (made less challenging).. to take my wasp example in EL.. the players didn't remove those ^^ or the aggro from those mobs.. those changes were done by SOE ..And it's not just EL.. it's also in other zones that this has happened.. So no.. I will not blame you or myself.. the things the players did to make it easier can be countered.. the downgrading of the mobs or the game as a whole, can't.


If you want "more challenging" go to one of the inside zones where there are more  ^^...  The outside zones were adjusted for more solo/small group content, but not all group mobs were removed...  And it wasn't to make it "easier", it was because you can't always find groups to kill the ^^, and if you wern't lucky enough to get a group, then you were just sitting there watching others kill stuff...  I know before they made thoes changes, there was several times that I would be LFG for hours on end and solo / small group content wasn't in the game...  At least there is something to do now other than watch others kill stuff...  If you want the "challenge", then go where the ^^ are...  I was in RE the other day and not a single person was there, and I bet that is just a bit more "challenging" than the bees in EL....

Or maybe that is the "challenge" your wanting back in the game...  The "challenge" of finding a well put together group so you can actually kill something....

 

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Old 07-19-2005, 09:43 PM   #14
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Aienaa wrote:


To counter this I've started equipping my newest alts with looted/vendor bought "crap" gear.. and guess what.. it's still easier then before. Is this becasue of being more skilled at the game then before? Or because I know the zones inside and out? I don't think so...


The stuff you call vendor bought "crap" gear is still better than what we had in the beginning...  I remember going to the NPC merchants and buying weapons/armor off them... they had no stats and usually less AC or damage than dropped stuff....  The stuff your calling "crap" would have been great items back them


I think it's because a lot of the zones have been downgraded (made less challenging).. to take my wasp example in EL.. the players didn't remove those ^^ or the aggro from those mobs.. those changes were done by SOE ..And it's not just EL.. it's also in other zones that this has happened.. So no.. I will not blame you or myself.. the things the players did to make it easier can be countered.. the downgrading of the mobs or the game as a whole, can't.


If you want "more challenging" go to one of the inside zones where there are more  ^^...  The outside zones were adjusted for more solo/small group content, but not all group mobs were removed...  And it wasn't to make it "easier", it was because you can't always find groups to kill the ^^, and if you wern't lucky enough to get a group, then you were just sitting there watching others kill stuff...  I know before they made thoes changes, there was several times that I would be LFG for hours on end and solo / small group content wasn't in the game...  At least there is something to do now other than watch others kill stuff...  If you want the "challenge", then go where the ^^ are...  I was in RE the other day and not a single person was there, and I bet that is just a bit more "challenging" than the bees in EL....

Or maybe that is the "challenge" your wanting back in the game...  The "challenge" of finding a well put together group so you can actually kill something....

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They did make the mobs easier in overland zones. While I welcomed the change to a certain extent, it went too far. It IS too easy if you want a challenge. The solution to this is something they've been exploring (though who ever knows when something will be implemented) but they've actually done this a couple of times to test content changes out. That would be creating a duplicate of each major instanced zone, such as EL, with a choice of the current solo easy content or something like the original difficulty of the overland zones. It doesn't have to be "either/or" as far as solo content vs group is concerned, it can be "and."

I would prefer like previous posters that not so much difficult content be located only in dungeons like RE. This puts limitations on some classes over others that I'm sure you realize. When a class has to root mobs off or kite them in some manner or split them to work effectively, than it is much to your benefit to be in an open area vs a small room in a dungeon. Some classes can solo far more easily in a dungeon than others....I know I have a clear advantage over non healers in my guild in soloing dungeons in Splitpaw. Though as an assassin you can sneak to the content of your choice, while I am at the moment stuck fighting my way in through an indoor zone.

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Old 07-19-2005, 09:57 PM   #15
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They added more solo content... Nothing wrong with that at all.. and at the end of the game (LS and EF) its still the same amount of group mobs as always
 
The complaining about not needing to click on your shard was just dumb... they had many reasons to do this...  Getting your shard lost in lava in instance zones comes to mind
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Old 07-20-2005, 05:48 AM   #16
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The Elitism theme is really getting old, I'm just waiting for the post that simply states: "oh noz you're making this game TOO EASY!1!" Guild level has absolutely no effect on how Challenging your gaming experience is, infact making it impossible for the small casual guild to EVER reach GL30 to me means that there was something wrong with the system to begin with.
 
I know that EQ2 guilds were originally designed to be very competitive organizations, where the biggest and best rewards were reserved for the best of the best on each server. Except that besides a couple status symbols those rewards do not exsist, and as long as you have a bank roll to cover it, anyone could make friends with, and join a level 30 guild for a day to grab those few "bling-bling" items.
 
Obviously, I like the idea that even small guilds can one day achieve guild level 30 with these changes, but at the same time I hope that one day great rewards like (just an example) non-instanced guild halls are given to the best good/evil guilds on the server, but I think much more then your guild's level should reflect on these things.
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Old 07-20-2005, 08:28 AM   #17
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I would prefer like previous posters that not so much difficult content be located only in dungeons like RE. This puts limitations on some classes over others that I'm sure you realize. When a class has to root mobs off or kite them in some manner or split them to work effectively, than it is much to your benefit to be in an open area vs a small room in a dungeon. Some classes can solo far more easily in a dungeon than others....I know I have a clear advantage over non healers in my guild in soloing dungeons in Splitpaw. Though as an assassin you can sneak to the content of your choice, while I am at the moment stuck fighting my way in through an indoor zone.

This is not about the soloability of the game, it's about having a "challange" present in the game...  The challange is there, if you choose that path, but there is also the easier content for thoes that play solo / small group...   Using the example I gave...  If you feel the bees in EL are not challenging enough, then go to RE where there is ^^ mobs and is much more challenging...

I'm not sure which zones you are refering to in Splitpaw, but there are zones geared for solo and for group and some that are a mix...  Harclave (AKA God Mode) is intended for solo play...  The Hideout has both a solo section and a group section...  The Upper Tunnels also has a solo and group section...  If I remember right, the Grotto is more group orientated along with Crawler Extermination....

The challange is there if you seek it out, but don't go to one of the solo zones or kill only solo mobs and then complain that the game is too easy when you could be going to one of the group orientated zones that provide more challange...

 

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Old 07-20-2005, 09:41 AM   #18
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Jindrisek wrote:
It seems that since EQ2 was released, every update has some changed some element in the game that takes away from the challenege. The penalties for death when EQ2 was released were nothing compared to other MMO's (including EQ1). Then experience debt was lowered, making the penalties for death even less. Then they made it so that you don't even have to click on your shard. Then they made it so that you can see your group mates shards. That, as well as all the other changes, may have been good news for plat farmers who run multiple accounts at once and die alot, but each change was bad news for me and many other people who want a challenge.
 
H.O.'s were changed at some point, making it so that they cant be broken by using the wrong ability. That was a real let down for me. It made them less challenging. I wish SOE had not made that change to them, but instead made H.O.'s more effective and worth the challenge.


If your premise is that streamlining the interface and making content more accessible makes the game less challenging, I have to disagree. Granted, for some players the act of mastering a game interface that seems complicated to others is part of the fun, but that's just not the direction we wanted to go. One of our design goals was to make the interface as fluid and easy-to-use as possible, and not have it get in the way of gameplay. While I'm sure that there will be other games that will require you to master a complex user interface, we're not going to be one of them.
 
Allowing shards to be retrieved via proximity was more about reducing CS petitions than it was about changing gameplay. It was the single biggest drain on GM time, and now shard retrieval issues have dwindled to almost nothing.
 
Group experience debt seems trivial to many, and a lot of players (including myself) actually like the way it works. Yet no matter how minor the debt may be, the system itself remains one of the most-cited reasons for players leaving the game. That's why it's a topic we discuss internally quite a bit and will likely revisit in the near future.
 
Some may have liked the way HOs worked before, and felt rewarded when they pulled them off. That's understandable, because they required a lot of coordination to get right. But again, that's a matter of the interface getting in the way, not heroic opportunities being challenging in and of themselves. The simple fact is that the interface caused HOs to hardly ever be used in groups. Since the best HOs are group based, that's hardly an ideal situation. The worst thing was that people playing their classes the right way were causing HOs to fail. That doesn't seem like good gameplay to me.
 
Now all that said, there are changes you can point to and legitimately say that challenge was reduced. Changing a mob from heroic to solo certainly makes it a less challenging encounter, but there was a definite need for more solo and small group content in the world. Downtiering was far from the most elegant solution to that problem, but it was the most effective in terms of time and resources. This is another issue we plan to look at again and perhaps devise a more ideal solution for. Personally, I'd like to see heroic encounters that can be picked apart if you have the right abilities and sufficient skill. That's a cause I plan to champion, so wish me luck. SMILEY
 
The goal isn't to make the game less challenging by any means. The goal is to make the game easier to get into and more enjoyable to stick around in, and part of that is actually increasing the challenge to make accomplishments more meaningful. I've been playing with the combat changes a lot lately, and I feel that they will bump up the challenge level of the game in a good way. As a bruiser, I really like them. While some of my attacks have changed, the biggest difference is in buffs. I've had a lot of fun figuring out which choices to make, and there are some very cool strategies for picking out which offensive and defensive buffs to use in a fight. Having no casting time on most attacks changes the pace of combat a lot, and I like it. While fighting solo encounters is just as doable for me, heroic mobs are definitely going to need a group to go after.
 
The challenge of EverQuest II is going to be in its gameplay, not in complex systems or tricky interfaces. "Accessible" and "easy" do not mean the same thing.
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Old 07-20-2005, 10:23 AM   #19
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Are you saying that casting times will be deleted in the combat changes that are going to happen when?
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Old 07-20-2005, 10:24 AM   #20
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Then why are you changing it so people outside of locked encounter can assist?
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Old 07-20-2005, 10:27 AM   #21
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I kinda agree and mostly disagree with this post
 
HOs were made easier in  a way, but also more realistic and more challenging, it used to be difficult to start a wheel but once that happened you had a whopping 30 seconds to figure it out.  Now you only get 10 seconds to complete them but creating the wheel is easier, makes more sense to me.
 
Something needed to be done with the guild thing because so many people have no way to contribute to the exp of their guild.  Noone wants to put all their stock into 12 patrons out of 50 people and pray nothing happens to them that makes them play less.
 
That's my 2cents
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Old 07-20-2005, 11:59 AM   #22
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Moorgard wrote:


Granted, for some players the act of mastering a game interface that seems complicated to others is part of the fun, but that's just not the direction we wanted to go. One of our design goals was to make the interface as fluid and easy-to-use as possible, and not have it get in the way of gameplay.

 
Tell that to the 12 pages of people in the UI Forum who fight a constant battle, for a half hour, every time they log on, trying to reconfigure their chat windows which didn't save AGAIN.
 
For people who want the interface to be uncomplicated and streamlined you sure are doing a great job ignoring this issue, that has been around since launch.
 
Now I'm not saying you guys haven't done a great job with this game, but for those of us who have this chat windows not saving bug, It is a major challenge to overcome every time we want to play. 

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Old 07-20-2005, 12:25 PM   #23
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Ive found that I get HO duds these days.   It happens often enough to be frustrating.   If I blow the HO fine  or if my advancment is resisted thats understandable too but if I hit the HO trigger and it just does nothing then its not fun.

 

 

 

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Old 07-20-2005, 12:26 PM   #24
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We're what 8 months from release? The UI in EQ1 (like a lot of things in EQ1 actually) is still far superior to the one we have in EQ2. - Storage of chat colours either on the server or in some encrypted form. - Still no hits-mode. - Bunch of people who can't even save their UI changes. - Non-simple that commands that lack the functionality of those in a much older game. - No server side filtering of chat. - Filters with terribly vague descriptions. Anyway back to the original topic... I didn't mind them adding more solo content. Lets be honest here. It IS solo content. Small groups wouldn't touch non-heroic mobs for xp since it sucks and there's even less challenge than there is soloing. Lets take the commonlands as an example. Designated areas where soloers could go and spam mobs to death to their hearts content would be great. However what we got was not that... So far as I can tell the entire commonlands is now solo mobs except for around Valmarr and a few pirates. In the same vein I couldn't find a single heroic mob on the docks side of the EL wall. Our "small group" as Sony like to put it had nothing to do in that zone at 31ish. Don't even begin to kid yourselves that the game has the same level of difficulty as it did at launch. As a side note other than his weapon the alt I'm playing has worse gear than our guilds main tank did at the time.
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Old 07-20-2005, 01:26 PM   #25
RexTenebrarum

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Moorgard wrote:
 
Group experience debt seems trivial to many, and a lot of players (including myself) actually like the way it works. Yet no matter how minor the debt may be, the system itself remains one of the most-cited reasons for players leaving the game. That's why it's a topic we discuss internally quite a bit and will likely revisit in the near future.
 
Although it's frustrating to get debt (once you hit 50, you don't really care anymore :womanwink: ) from a person who tries to jump the lava river in LS or some other stupid action, There should be a penalty when somebody dies in the group. It generally means the group made a mistake. But please don't remove debt altogether (some exceptions could apply)
 
Personally, I'd like to see heroic encounters that can be picked apart if you have the right abilities and sufficient skill. That's a cause I plan to champion, so wish me luck. SMILEY
 
I really would like to see that happen. It would allow for some very exciting gameplay. Good luck in trying to get that implemented. SMILEY
 
The goal isn't to make the game less challenging by any means. The goal is to make the game easier to get into and more enjoyable to stick around in, and part of that is actually increasing the challenge to make accomplishments more meaningful. I've been playing with the combat changes a lot lately, and I feel that they will bump up the challenge level of the game in a good way. As a bruiser, I really like them. While some of my attacks have changed, the biggest difference is in buffs. I've had a lot of fun figuring out which choices to make, and there are some very cool strategies for picking out which offensive and defensive buffs to use in a fight. Having no casting time on most attacks changes the pace of combat a lot, and I like it. While fighting solo encounters is just as doable for me, heroic mobs are definitely going to need a group to go after.
 

Thanks for clarifying a bit more on the combat changes. I can see now how the DPS chart and buffing come together (if I understand correctly), and it looks good SMILEY  Two remarks though:  If we have to switch buffs often, please make it so that the buff you want to cast (if it doesn't stack with the current one) cancels out the previous one automatically and we don't need to cancel it manually. Secondly: if there is no casting time anymore, will we still receive enough warning to interupt an NPC? Currently with enough skill and depending on class you're  able to interupt about 50-75% of casts.



 

Message Edited by RexTenebrarum on 07-20-2005 11:30 AM

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Old 07-20-2005, 01:41 PM   #26
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This thread lured me in as my girlfriend and I have recently had a few discussions over the game feeling like it is becoming simpler.

We recalled the days of hunting the resources for the dwarven workboots, eagerly attacking the piece of ore, being devastated about failing to obtain anything from it and moving onto the next.

I fondly, (if that is the right word), recall fleeing for my life with 3 or 4 wasps in hot pursuit.

I recall the day I ventured to the local npc merchant to obtain a set of plate armour (no stats like you get off players) Obviously my girlfriend had to help me cover the cost. She was and still is the more thrifty of the two of us.

I remember having a dwarven monk take us through HO drills on the northern(ish) beach of Thundering Steppes for a good hour before he would lead us into combat against the groups of gnolls

So many good memories SMILEY
 
But things change.
 
Personally I am happy with the HO changes. They always were a bit tricky to pull off, especially with some nutter scout firing off his techniques without any awareness of what others were trying to do SMILEY Wood elf I think he was...
 
The wasps are indeed easier. Certainly the landing on the shores of EL are not the terrifying experience it once was but is this a bad thing? People only need to venture a bit further northward before they realise this picturesque little island isn't an ideal location for a holiday.
 
I sometimes wonder if anyone ever buys armour or equipment off the npcs anymore. I guess they do, if they're like me and didn't discover the market till they are into their 20s SMILEY
 
But I seem to have veered away from making any sort of a point and wound up reminiscing. How embarassing.
 
Lets see if I can redeem myself slightly.
 
I agree some things have been made easier. The wasps and HOs for example.
But I don't think these have detracted from the game.
 
I have issues with the maps containing too many signposts on them (I would much rather be able to put my own notes on maps rather than have big yellow circles showing me the secret underwater entrance to Qeynos) but I deal with it.
 
I'm quite against the potential "no guild status loss" change but I have waffled on about that in another post.
 
 
 
I think I have forgotten what I was originally going to say. Must be the time of night.

Message Edited by Griffulon on 07-20-2005 10:45 PM

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Old 07-20-2005, 01:58 PM   #27
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I don't think MG meant spells were 0 cast time, just Combat Arts.... and then just the non-buff ones. He was kinda unclear, BUT he was just talking abut his bruiser... so I don't think he meant spells at all. -T
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Old 07-20-2005, 02:15 PM   #28
Vashn

 
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I think this is an interesting problem.

EQ1 started it all hahah..

But seriously some gamers like ez.. some like hard.. some like 1-2 hours some 10 hours + ignore crying kids and hungry wife.

 

I think a good idea would be to break the servers down even more.

Difficulty HARD would be existing server XP grind with maybe more harder heroics and stuff.

Easy server would be double the XP ... or quadruple. this would be for casual customers that want to play eq2

and enjoy content but not kill the same things over and over again for hours.. also this Easy server would have

no XP penalty.

 

Then you use free movelogs to get everyone where they want to be. Make both customers happy.

Soloist and people that are busy but LOVE the eq franchise and have high performance pc's.

If they are smiling they will pay just to have content access.

 

People that LOVE it hard and challenging.. well just make a hard server and turn up the pain for them.

 

How would like your Tai Food sir? 1 thru 10 in hotness.

 

Cheers..

(I like EZ btw because I am disabled and have 3 spinal diseases I get sick even trying to grind

in EQ1 2 or SWG).

EDIT: Ok 1 more thing .. the cost to execute this should not be too expensive.

You code in the quadruple .. triple or double at a min xp boost. That should only be a few lines of code

in patch. Couple hours work there.

Then put back some heroics.. a weeks work there or so. Then the movelogs and meetings.

Try 1 New EZ and 1 new SUPER CHALLENGE (hard)

 

Message Edited by Vashner on 07-20-2005 03:18 AM

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Old 07-20-2005, 04:33 PM   #29
Taidi

 
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Moorgard wrote:

*snip*
 
Now all that said, there are changes you can point to and legitimately say that challenge was reduced. Changing a mob from heroic to solo certainly makes it a less challenging encounter, but there was a definite need for more solo and small group content in the world. Downtiering was far from the most elegant solution to that problem, but it was the most effective in terms of time and resources. This is another issue we plan to look at again and perhaps devise a more ideal solution for. Personally, I'd like to see heroic encounters that can be picked apart if you have the right abilities and sufficient skill. That's a cause I plan to champion, so wish me luck. SMILEY
 
The goal isn't to make the game less challenging by any means. The goal is to make the game easier to get into and more enjoyable to stick around in, and part of that is actually increasing the challenge to make accomplishments more meaningful. I've been playing with the combat changes a lot lately, and I feel that they will bump up the challenge level of the game in a good way. As a bruiser, I really like them. While some of my attacks have changed, the biggest difference is in buffs. I've had a lot of fun figuring out which choices to make, and there are some very cool strategies for picking out which offensive and defensive buffs to use in a fight. Having no casting time on most attacks changes the pace of combat a lot, and I like it. While fighting solo encounters is just as doable for me, heroic mobs are definitely going to need a group to go after.
 
The challenge of EverQuest II is going to be in its gameplay, not in complex systems or tricky interfaces. "Accessible" and "easy" do not mean the same thing.


For the first paragraph:
I would love to see this happen. Currently, all fights I take place in are carried out more or less the exact same way with every character I have. HO, starter, trigger, few other abilities, rinse, wash, repeat. The only time that changes is when my dirge gets in a bind and I have to start kiting, which means I actually enjoy getting in binds. :smileywink: Implementing normal solo and heroic battles that require some thinking and planning to pull off would be a welcome addition. Good luck on this. :smileyhappy:
 
2nd paragraph:
If you're saying what I think you're saying in that last section, let me be the first to say: YES!
Since beginning the game, I've yearned for there to be more differentiation between how combat abilities and spells are executed. Removing the cast time from a kick makes sense, and is, I think, a step in the right direction. Kudos to the dev team for this. Now I'm looking forward to the upcoming revamp even more. :smileywink:
 
Now if only instruments would be implemented... *hint, hint*
 
In closing, I have a question concering your final statement. You say that the challenge in EverQuest II will not be from a tricky interface or complex systems, but the gameplay itself. Currently, I find the UI to be very simple and easy to use, and I like it. My question is about the differentiation of complex systems and the gameplay itself. I'm probably just not picturing it right (or thinking straight, due to it being so early,) but to me, the underlying systems are the chief aspect of gameplay. If the underlying systems and formulas for the game aren't going to be complex, how will the gameplay accomplish this? Your statement, "Personally, I'd like to see heroic encounters that can be picked apart if you have the right abilities and sufficient skill." even seems to be hinting at a complex system that requires the player to use the correct abilities for the situtation in a certain way to accomplish a difficult task. In other words, player skill will be involved. It will be a challenge, and I love the idea.
 
My question is, if situations such as these aren't going to be carried out using a complex system requiring a complex solution, how will they be implemented? I ask because I am genuinely interested, and would love to see more challenges that require more strategy than "Pull, kill, repeat," and would like to know how they might work.
 
Thanks again, Moorgard. Keep up the good work, and tell the rest of the dev team the same. :smileywink:

Message Edited by Taidien on 07-20-2005 06:47 AM

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Old 07-20-2005, 05:58 PM   #30
Jenj

 
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The problem I see is that more content is coming-out (e.g. Splitpaw) and the server population either staying the same or goes down. Compounded with the fact the there are drastically less group mobs to hunt, finding good pick-up groups has become difficult. Also, Splitpaw has trivialized group play b/c you are able to gain signficantly faster exps and cash by soloing (e.g. Harclaves). Resulting in other zones having low population and more folks soloing versus grouping. The whole idea of scalable instances (e.g. Splitpaw) pretty much allows an adventurer to stay in 1-spot all the way to level-50 and undermines the value (and playability) of all other zones that arent scalable. Places like Runneyeye are virtual ghost towns and should have a "for sale" sign attached to them.

The question is why do I want to group? LFG takes longer to fill b/c less ppl grouping, less group mobs, and soloing is significantly faster for exps, loot, and cash. Just stick a bed, broker board, and TS equipment in Splitpaw and you could scrap all the other zones in EQ2.

-Jenjer

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