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Old 07-21-2005, 06:28 PM   #31
Tockl

 
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I guess thats my point about the 7 vs 90 days.  They could have done the exact same thing for us, without allowing bigger guilds to level so fast.  It used to be an equal playing field, and that was the attraction for me.  There was always the possibility of a casual guild being one of the first to attain level 30.

Before it was an accomplishment, now it will be common.  I still hope they change it before the week is up.

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Old 07-21-2005, 06:33 PM   #32
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I see what your saying but at the same time why even worry about it? As a medium sized guild I guess server firsts are far out of our reach unless it is a drop or something. I guess for us it really isn't important what the large uber guilds do but at least we have a helping hand that we don't have to deal with our guild playing yo yo because people come and go. Many leave for many reasons like real life or boredom of the game or wanting higher raiding and no longer interested in the casual guild.. things change in many peoples lives and game life... the thing is... the guild no longer gets punished for those choices or events that players make.
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Old 07-21-2005, 06:54 PM   #33
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It is not only that people leave small guilds to move up to larger, raid focused guilds.  People leave for other reasons, such as personality conflicts, and that affects large guilds as it does small ones.  Not losing patron points helps every guild, and I am glad for the change.  The one week penalty is to prevent abuse, but I doubt that it is enough, and there were many suggestions I thought were better.  I also prefer my idea where a patron can earn levels, or anyone in the guild for that matter, can become a patron not by assignment, but by earning the status by doing heritage quests or writs.  The higher in levels the patron goes, the more personal and guild status points that person earns for doing them.

A high level patron would be worth a fortune in points, but the individual earned it, and yet, they can leave and that is not lost on the guild.  Then others can earn the same place, and it all benefits the guild and its members.  Getting to 30 is a great pat on the back, but really -- how many people are going to be buying a 60pp horse?  Not to mention, cost to performance is nowhere, since a 9pp horse sold for 5pp at level 25, and its only speed 40 to the 60pp speed of 48.  Worth it?  I doubt it.  60pp could be better used elsewhere, like a guild house -- and where, by the way, are those -- long before I buy a translucent horse?

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Old 07-21-2005, 06:56 PM   #34
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Old 07-21-2005, 07:10 PM   #35
Tockl

 
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I guess it just really irks me to have others who can abuse the system. 
One week is better than the original, but longer would cut down on abuse severely.
 
As it standed before, large guilds had no advantage.  Why should they now?
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Old 07-22-2005, 01:23 AM   #36
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My guild recently lost half of it's high level players because they wanted to move to an EU server so there would be more people on at their prime playing time.  I can't blame them for wanting to do that, but why should the guild lose FIVE levels because of it? 

This is a matter of being fair.  It has nothing to do with whether or not one is an uberleet 80 hour a week basement dwelling computer nerd who's sole source of satisfaction in life is his 3 level 50 EQ2 toons and all their [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]in' gear.  An accomplishment, BTW, that in the grand sceme of things means exactly NOTHING, Gilmer... so stop trying to build up your self image by pretending otherwise and protecting your 'turf' from the inferior 'casuals'.  It's a GAME, by definition any time one spends PLAYING A GAME is CASUAL TIME.  And time spent is what it boils down to - not 'skill'.

How many level 30 guilds are there on each server?  Average of maybe 2?  Vs. the number of level 50 players?  Did you stop to consider that might not be the way they intended things to be at this stage, and they might just have a reason you aren't aware of to give the guild leveling process a little boost?

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Old 07-22-2005, 01:55 AM   #37
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Alot of you are crying "fair for the guild" and "fair for casual players" and forgetting a few important things.

The status some of you believe your guild deserves is created by a patron.  If that patron leaves the guild...by all logic...his status should go with him as HE or SHE is the one that made it and thus leveled your guild. 

Why should your guild be able to keep the status that he or she earned? 

In fact, I would say a guild falling many levels due to status/patron loss is a good indication that something is wrong with the guild. 

Why should casual players care about guild status anyway?  Guilds aren't made for casual players.  Casual players don't contribute enough to be a benefit to a guild.  Unless you're willing to wait a year or two before you can afford those "uber" status rewards. 

And no, you don't need a guild to do a raid.  Every single raid I've ever been in was a pick up Raid that I chanced upon with some other peeps.  Hell, I even started a raid myself once.  It was a mish mash of many different guilds into CoH for GB heritage.

 

Please stop dumbing the game down for people who complain they have no time to play.  If they have no time, that's their own fault...not yours Sony!  Please cater to those of us who DO have time and DO enjoy your game enough to want to play it frequently.  Give us the challenge we desire. 

If you continue to make the game too easy for the casual players who don't have time to play, you WILL drive away those of us who begin to feel unchallenged.

WE HAVE SPOKEN!

 

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Old 07-22-2005, 02:27 AM   #38
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p1ut0nium wrote:

And no, you don't need a guild to do a raid.  Every single raid I've ever been in was a pick up Raid that I chanced upon with some other peeps.  Hell, I even started a raid myself once.  It was a mish mash of many different guilds into CoH for GB heritage.



I'm a casual player, and I actually mostly agree.  I played EQ1 for over 5 years, casually.  Only near the end did I have more time to strive for the end-game.  Only once I hit 65 did I finally make the highest level available, and I had pretty decent AAs.  When the cap was raised to 50, I was in my 40s.  When the cap was raised to 65, I was in my 50s.
 
My biggest dissapointment in EQ2 is the ability to hit the maximum level BEFORE the next level-raising expansion, with FAR less time invested than EQ1. 
 
 
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Old 07-22-2005, 02:43 AM   #39
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I should also post, that although there were certain points I knew I would never get to, a huge part of the fun was getting as close as I could with the limited time I had.  Maybe it meant camping X zone for a raid to start, hoping for a free spot, and praying for a lucky roll.  Maybe it was not buying upgrades for levels at a time to save up for a new weapon. 
I was a rogue.  Shortly after Kunark I was one of few on the server to be dual-welding bloodpoints, when they wouldn't even proc for me yet.  I had laughable armor and a busted bank account, but that was my choice.
 
In my ideal EQ2, it would be nigh impossible to have more than a couple spells Adept 3 or better.  A dream to be in a level 30 guild.  Possible, but dangerous, to solo.
 
I am the one who puts games onto Superhuman setting from the first time I play, because if it's not a challenge, I don't want to play.
 
The fun is IN the challenge, not in its absence.  I know many others feel differently, and cannot begin to fathom where I am coming from (as a casual gamer).  But we are out there.  I still enjoy EQ2, but the more dumbed down it gets, the more my interest wanes.
 
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Old 07-22-2005, 05:44 AM   #40
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p1ut0nium wrote:

Alot of you are crying "fair for the guild" and "fair for casual players" and forgetting a few important things.

The status some of you believe your guild deserves is created by a patron.  If that patron leaves the guild...by all logic...his status should go with him as HE or SHE is the one that made it and thus leveled your guild. 

Why should your guild be able to keep the status that he or she earned? 

In fact, I would say a guild falling many levels due to status/patron loss is a good indication that something is wrong with the guild. 

Why should casual players care about guild status anyway?  Guilds aren't made for casual players.  Casual players don't contribute enough to be a benefit to a guild.  Unless you're willing to wait a year or two before you can afford those "uber" status rewards. 

And no, you don't need a guild to do a raid.  Every single raid I've ever been in was a pick up Raid that I chanced upon with some other peeps.  Hell, I even started a raid myself once.  It was a mish mash of many different guilds into CoH for GB heritage.

Please stop dumbing the game down for people who complain they have no time to play.  If they have no time, that's their own fault...not yours Sony!  Please cater to those of us who DO have time and DO enjoy your game enough to want to play it frequently.  Give us the challenge we desire. 

If you continue to make the game too easy for the casual players who don't have time to play, you WILL drive away those of us who begin to feel unchallenged.

WE HAVE SPOKEN!


I am a true casual player, and this is just mis-informed rhetoric. The vast majority of casual players are not casual because they play 2 hours a night, instead they are labeled as casual because they do not raid, and are not level 50. I am in a small guild of casual players, and I know of aleast 6 other guilds exactly like my guild. We have major problems because most of us like to play alts... we find it fun to explore every aspect of a level range before moving on. Occasionally we have to delete toons to make room for more alts, at which point we loose massive amounts of guild experience... why should we? The same player is still in the guild. Further more, re-inforcing what the poster above stated... what if people shift servers because of population shifts? This too has happened to my guild, and many guilds I know... Sony is pretty gracious with the "here's your chance to move for free" offers... has happened a good 4 times since launch... also as people move around games to experiement with other games, the populations of servers change. My guild came from EQ1, we were a guild comprised of EU, US and Aussie players... when EQ2 started we were the same, but our EU friends got frustrated because there were no players on in their time... they didn't want to leave out guild, and still are good friends with us, but they had to so that they could be on a server with people in there timezone.... our US friends also moved on to a different guild because there were only 4 of them in our guild... and they needed more. Lets now look at the fact that very rarely does a patron earn xp on their own, half of the level range writs (15 to 20, 25 to 30, 35 to 40) can only be done by groups... most heritage quest involve atleast one "raid" that requires atleast a group... why should the guild lose xp when one person leaves, and takes the xp that 5 other helped gain? Casual is just a label that has been imposed on the majority of players of this game... we still play the game alot, and we fund most of the development done in the game (simply because wether you like it or not, we are the majority of the suscriber base). The rhetoric that this has made the game easier is just a big pile of farbot... the people who keep saying "people can just buy their way to 30" have obviously never actually handed in one of the status items... which at BEST give your guild 8 to 12 xp (which when levels are counted in the 100,000s of xp, is not really that much)... at any given time there would not be enough items for sale on the market of any given server to give the guild a level, even a low level... and in the time it took to gather the items you could have created an alt and done 6 level 10 writs and earned more xp. Get over the change.
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Old 07-22-2005, 05:50 PM   #41
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jarrettes wrote:
level your newb guild to 30 and get to 50 yourself before you start crying please, kthnx~


This coming from someone who's guild was created on Created: November 11, 2004
and still only Guild Level: 24.   nice.   :smileyvery-happy:     Do what you preach before trying to
flame someone.

Canthalion Autumnleaf
Level 46 Paladin
Co-leader Order of the Phoenix
Guild level 21  
(oh and we did it in less then 2 months can you say the same??)
 

Message Edited by Dureck_13 on 07-22-2005 06:51 AM

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Old 07-25-2005, 05:41 PM   #42
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Wow, your trophy's in the mail. I have to ask: guild of high-schoolers on summer vacation spending too much time in the basement?
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Old 07-25-2005, 11:19 PM   #43
p1ut0nium

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themysteriousne wrote:


p1ut0nium wrote:

Alot of you are crying "fair for the guild" and "fair for casual players" and forgetting a few important things.

The status some of you believe your guild deserves is created by a patron.  If that patron leaves the guild...by all logic...his status should go with him as HE or SHE is the one that made it and thus leveled your guild. 

Why should your guild be able to keep the status that he or she earned? 

In fact, I would say a guild falling many levels due to status/patron loss is a good indication that something is wrong with the guild. 

Why should casual players care about guild status anyway?  Guilds aren't made for casual players.  Casual players don't contribute enough to be a benefit to a guild.  Unless you're willing to wait a year or two before you can afford those "uber" status rewards. 

And no, you don't need a guild to do a raid.  Every single raid I've ever been in was a pick up Raid that I chanced upon with some other peeps.  Hell, I even started a raid myself once.  It was a mish mash of many different guilds into CoH for GB heritage.

 

Please stop dumbing the game down for people who complain they have no time to play.  If they have no time, that's their own fault...not yours Sony!  Please cater to those of us who DO have time and DO enjoy your game enough to want to play it frequently.  Give us the challenge we desire. 

If you continue to make the game too easy for the casual players who don't have time to play, you WILL drive away those of us who begin to feel unchallenged.

WE HAVE SPOKEN!

 



I am a true casual player, and this is just mis-informed rhetoric.

The vast majority of casual players are not casual because they play 2 hours a night, instead they are labeled as casual because they do not raid, and are not level 50.

I am in a small guild of casual players, and I know of aleast 6 other guilds exactly like my guild. We have major problems because most of us like to play alts... we find it fun to explore every aspect of a level range before moving on. Occasionally we have to delete toons to make room for more alts, at which point we loose massive amounts of guild experience... why should we? The same player is still in the guild.

Further more, re-inforcing what the poster above stated... what if people shift servers because of population shifts? This too has happened to my guild, and many guilds I know... Sony is pretty gracious with the "here's your chance to move for free" offers... has happened a good 4 times since launch... also as people move around games to experiement with other games, the populations of servers change. My guild came from EQ1, we were a guild comprised of EU, US and Aussie players... when EQ2 started we were the same, but our EU friends got frustrated because there were no players on in their time... they didn't want to leave out guild, and still are good friends with us, but they had to so that they could be on a server with people in there timezone.... our US friends also moved on to a different guild because there were only 4 of them in our guild... and they needed more.

Lets now look at the fact that very rarely does a patron earn xp on their own, half of the level range writs (15 to 20, 25 to 30, 35 to 40) can only be done by groups... most heritage quest involve atleast one "raid" that requires atleast a group... why should the guild lose xp when one person leaves, and takes the xp that 5 other helped gain?

Casual is just a label that has been imposed on the majority of players of this game... we still play the game alot, and we fund most of the development done in the game (simply because wether you like it or not, we are the majority of the suscriber base).

The rhetoric that this has made the game easier is just a big pile of farbot... the people who keep saying "people can just buy their way to 30" have obviously never actually handed in one of the status items... which at BEST give your guild 8 to 12 xp (which when levels are counted in the 100,000s of xp, is not really that much)... at any given time there would not be enough items for sale on the market of any given server to give the guild a level, even a low level... and in the time it took to gather the items you could have created an alt and done 6 level 10 writs and earned more xp.

Get over the change.



You're deleting alts and losing status for the guild?  Why would you have alts that have contributed lots of status that you delete?  That seems foolish.  Foolish for guild leaders to allow you to keep doing that.  In my guild, only peeps who play frequently and truely want to contribute (do writs & HQs at the expense of other things) are made patrons...and certainly not alts that they plan to delete on a whim.  Foolishness.

Casual players are those who play maybe once a week for a few hours in general.  People who don't play games very often.  Or something along these lines.  Lvl has nothing to do with it.  Guild association has nothign to do with it.  No one who uses the term casual player is refering to level range or guild affiliation to my knowledge.

So what if you shift servers for whatever reason.  If it's a forced shift, then your giuld shifts with you no?  If you do it on your own...then what's wrong with the guild losing your status points?  I see nothing wrong with that.  You abandoned them for a "better" server.

Guess what...90% of my HQs were done with help yes, but not all guild help.  Some were done with the help of other players in the world who weren't in my guild.  And I have done many writs solo.  On Neriak, finding a group can be hard work sometimes...soloing is how I've gotten most of my 40 levels (by completing quests....520 and counting)

But personally I don't really care about this change that much.  What I DO care about is the big picture.  It's just another change made in a long list of changes that will continue to happen to make the game less challenging (if it continues at this rate).  And if you think this change hasn't made it less challenging for a guild to level up, you need to sit down and write it out on paper.  It's common practice for people to leave guilds for one reason or another...and many times it is high up peeps with lots of status who leave.  Before this change, guilds could lose levels frequently, thus making it hard for a guild to truely level up or even maintain.  Now, this won't happen, thus making it....wait for it...easier for that level to maintain it's level and thus to levle up!

No rhetoric here.  Only logical argument.

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Old 07-26-2005, 12:55 AM   #44
p1ut0nium

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By the way...

Status Loot I have found so far gives 100 - 400 gsp not 8 or 12.  And it drops like crazy.  So, no it won't level your guild in a few hours of playing, but with every patron xping and turning the stuff in, it does tend to add up.

I have personally witnessed the xp bar (in my lvl 19 almost 20 guild) move slightly by me turning in 4 loot status items at 400 gsp a piece.

You might want to double check your numbers on those status items.

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Old 07-26-2005, 01:14 AM   #45
Ebeta

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A tier 5 status loot item gives 400 PSP not GSP.  In my level 24 guild turning in a tier 5 status loot drop gives me 400 status points and my guild 24 status points.  It takes about 1000 status points to move our guild bar 1%.  I really dont' think this is an issue.
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Old 07-26-2005, 01:21 AM   #46
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The problem is why even have patrons? why even bother? you can just get 5 people who are about to complete a heritage, patron them, get the status, and then de-patron them without a worry.

So whats the point of being a Patron again? Hell, just can just guild people, patron them, have them complete their heritage, then thank them, give them their 20 gold, and send them on their way...using this system and with reasonable cash u can hit lvl 30 quicker than u think. This is a slap to every guild who worked their [Removed for Content] off to hit lvl 30.

 

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Old 07-26-2005, 01:25 AM   #47
p1ut0nium

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uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:

The problem is why even have patrons? why even bother? you can just get 5 people who are about to complete a heritage, patron them, get the status, and then de-patron them without a worry.

So whats the point of being a Patron again? Hell, just can just guild people, patron them, have them complete their heritage, then thank them, give them their 20 gold, and send them on their way...using this system and with reasonable cash u can hit lvl 30 quicker than u think. This is a slap to every guild who worked their [Removed for Content] off to hit lvl 30.

 



Bingo!

I witnessed just this action first hand the other night in my guild.  I didn't complain, nor did I think it was bad.  After all, Sony is letting us do it.  But 5 of us were about to complete the Stein of Mogok.  One of us wasn't a patron.  So they made him one on the spot to get the xp.

I'd call this a bit of an exploit or at least an overlooked consequence of the new system.

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Old 07-26-2005, 01:29 AM   #48
p1ut0nium

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It seams strange that different tiers of status loot have different ways of giving status (personal or guiild)...though I was under the impression that it only gave guild xp not personal.  I'm obviously wrong based on the previous poster...
 
Regardless, I love status loot.  That is definitly not the issue here.  The only issue is the fact that guilds now keep all status regardless of losing members.  And guilds can now promote people just for their HQ status to level up faster.
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Old 07-26-2005, 01:34 AM   #49
p1ut0nium

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Also...
 
What is a guild?  It's a group of people working together right?  Therefor, shouldn't a guild's level be tied invariably to it's members status?  And therefor if those members who worked so hard to get it where it is left...should the guild not suffer the consequences? 
 
The guild's heartbeat is created by the ebb and flow of it's members.  To state it somewhat metaphoricaly.
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Old 07-26-2005, 07:18 PM   #50
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Well..I have to say I'm glad the change was made..I argued against guilds losing XP because people leave for a long time...and having a smaller guild..I did not want to end up with about every second person made a Patron for one reason or another. You see..in my guild..we have several who JUST got deployed to Iraq..and were Patrons.  Should we let them sit there for 7 months inactive holding status ..and a huge portion of status at that..simply because they're unable to play?  That's fair and right?  Or is it cool if we remove those as Patrons until they return, and replace them with 2 more, without dropping about 4 guild levels a person?  Hmm?  Think here..this shouldn't require a pencil even.  And of course, when they DO return, we give them the Patron status they have shown us they deserve, back. Or..try this one on.  How about the 2 we have in the guild who contributed a ton of status and no longer play at all?  It just so happened it was a couple..and the guy in the couple developed a heart condition which required them to move and relocate near a hospital.  And in doing so, because RL > MMO, EQ2 went out the window and both accounts got cancelled.  Should we just such a weasel though a jet intake here and lose out and delevel because someone's RL interfered and we were stuck with the premise of once again, having dead weight in the guild that would NEVER go away unless something like this changed?  Bear in mind that in the prior case involving those deployed, and in this case as well, these people had HQs LEFT TO COMPLETE...and by not completing them either way, we are permanently adding to our guild Patron total..which IMO..was set to be at 12 as a prime. I think most of you folks, including those of you who claim to be EQ1 veterans..have completely lost focus of some things regarding SOE as well.  Time for a refresher course, and a good example I learned of just how set this is.  Class is now in session..test on Monday... In EQ1, just prior to the Kunark expansion...2-3 months prior..EQ1 started seeing a lot of new items and other perks change...things became easier in places..coin became easier to acquire from areas...and everything was just like.."Holy crap this is insane!".  And of course Kunark did come out and it was "Monty Haul Baby!  Drag it in!"  .....for about the first 2 to 2 & 1/2 weeks.  Then the almighty nerf hammer of SOE came down and there wasn't even drop rates in places for Kunark for a while.  Fast forward to Velious..you may see the same situation occuring again..if so, points for you, cause it surely did.  Then Luclin, and so on. Are you seeing a pattern here?  This is a prevalent situation SOE has displayed multiple times..over and over and over..it's the same thing..things become almost outrageous prior to a expansion..the expansion is monty haul for a bit, then EVERYTHING gets a huge massive ungodly almighty double-handed nerfing.  And..then ...you wait for the next expansion. This is just so prevalent from SOE that I can give you a example of how it's ingrained into SOE's mentality.  My father, upon retiring, chose a retirement job of car audio installation..yeah those big dang radios you can hear blocks over.  I was speaking to him about a week or so ago, and somehow EQ2 came up and I was telling him about how the expansions seem to follow this pattern..and he told me something... He had talked to SOE's parent body..which obviously isn't SOE but Sony itself..and had gotten involved in discussions so high up the corporate ladder, he was on the phone with 2 other people at once..one who spoke Japanese, and a third who served as translator.  As it turns out..Sony's mentality is to plan WAY in advance for everything.  They plan a year ahead to manufacture, FOR EXAMPLE, 100 of type 'X' radio.  They buy / manufacture all the parts to make 100 of 'X' type of radio, assemble, ship and sell.  However..let's say they sell out of 'X' radio fast..and could have sold 100 more.  Are they going to rush out and get the parts for 100 more type 'X' radios in that year?  NO. They aren't..they wait until the next year, survey the situation and take it from there. Bottom of this particular picture is that my father learned that there..even with the core body of SOE that is Sony..it's nigh near impossible to get them to even consider or change anything, even when it would benefit them..because they create a plan longterm, and stick to it even if it's hurting them during the projected timeframe.  He found out and he had never even heard of MMOs or other until this conversation came up.  I find it remarkable to note his observations of SOE and the parent company of Sony...they are remarkably the same.  How does this relate to everything?  By pointing out that SOE is going to do this to us in EQ2...because DoF is on the way.  I would have expected the real veterans from EQ1 to see this..they had several chances after all. Back to the core topic...what SOE is doing here with guild changes, was coming for a while..if you didn't see it, you needed to take the blinders off..this is SOE's hand at work at making things outrageous prior to DoF so that everything they can possibly tweak will be as appealing as possible to the market that looks at DoF when it comes out and goes "Hmm."  This is especially so for those who DID play EQ2 but left, and are perceptually being enticed to return.  The change itself IS good for smaller guilds folks..and guild level 30 for those who go "But but but...guild level 30!" ..well it's just a matter of time.  It's going to happen to ANY guild who puts the effort into making it happen.  The only difference is how well the progress moves, or how poorly..and having the ability to add /remove patrons DID affect that. Overall..a change I did campaign for..and one I'm glad to see implemented..I am usually highly critical of SOE..but this was a good job on their part.
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Tank's code of honor:: First in, last out. Die for the healers safety, whatever personal cost. Keep aggro, all of it, strive for it, all times, all places in which it matters. Fight hard, die harder.
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Culann Heartsto is offline   Reply With Quote
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