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Old 02-23-2010, 03:15 PM   #61
Yimway

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Spryt wrote:

Everyone keeps coming with the same argument dps vs utility and how chanters shouldn't be top dps etc, etc. They are not top dps. They were not top dps in TSO, they were not top dps in RoK or any expansion before that. A lot of balancing has been done over the years to bring them more in line with other classes. But whatever they did in SF is just too much. The gap is now way too big. If chanters are ment to be doing bard dps then we should atleast have equally good buffs as bards. All illu buffs except haste a bard has an improved version of.

Maybe we play different games, but I've seen chanters at rogue level dps for sometime.  Frequently higher in heroic content with shorter fight times due to faster ramping classes having more of an advantage.

Are you suggesting, as things are right now, you are not behind rogues and ahead of healers?  Are you ahead of or behind the troub?  What about the dirge?

I fully understand people are upset they can't outclass others while playing a utility class.  It was great fun pwning t1 dps on my coercer in tso groups.  It was fun getitng  in the top 5 in the raid parse as well. However, I'm not surprised that SoE thought that needed fixing.  I'm not surprised that base dps potential is segmented as it is now.

Sure I'll miss being OP, but well, who doesn't?

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Old 02-23-2010, 03:19 PM   #62
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atan,

maybe you are right. you know, our guard and SK are almost always in the top 10 on the parse. they can even top brigs and swashs sometimes. I think they should also get a fat dps nerfing. dont you agree? after all, tanking is utility right? there are almost always 2 tanks in a raid. they are very desirable. they can still still do their job and do 5k dps. every raid needs a tank and most run 2. I'm sure you will agree that tank dps is very OP for what they bring to a raid.

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Old 02-23-2010, 03:25 PM   #63
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dlove183 wrote:

atan,

maybe you are right. you know, our guard and SK are almost always in the top 10 on the parse. they can even top brigs and swashs sometimes. I think they should also get a fat dps nerfing. dont you agree? after all, tanking is utility right? there are almost always 2 tanks in a raid. they are very desirable. they can still still do their job and do 5k dps. every raid needs a tank and most run 2. I'm sure you will agree that tank dps is very OP for what they bring to a raid.

Sure, providing they have the hate tools required, it doesn't really matter what their dps is.

However, I don't find my guard beating rogues on dps parses unless I'm being over buffed and they're under buffed (or they are asleep).  My SK on the other hand, yeah he totally should be nerfed.

Fighters should be falling in line with bard dps IMO, if SoE has finally worked out hate generation mechanics to support that, I have no issues with it.

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Old 02-23-2010, 03:44 PM   #64
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lol, I will laugh so hard at those raiders that scream for chanter nerf when their chanters quit.

I already replaced my main. 

I am not your freaking buff bot sitting in your back quietly and buff you immediately if  you die.  Good luck finding players that pay their monthly fee so they can make others have more fun, more epee.

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Old 02-23-2010, 03:51 PM   #65
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[email protected] wrote:

Good luck finding players that pay their monthly fee so they can make others have more fun, more epee.

And yet, you basically just shouted that you lost your epee and wont stand for it because parsing high is the only fun to be had.. of course you would be parsing pretty low with no healers, no bards etc, but what do you care, its all about your own parsing leet skillz right?

This obsession that only big dps is fun is.. well its silly.

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Old 02-23-2010, 04:02 PM   #66
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shaunfletcher wrote:

And yet, you basically just shouted that you lost your epee and wont stand for it because parsing high is the only fun to be had.. of course you would be parsing pretty low with no healers, no bards etc, but what do you care, its all about your own parsing leet skillz right?

This obsession that only big dps is fun is.. well its silly.

Sums it up perfectly.

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Old 02-23-2010, 04:12 PM   #67
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[email protected] wrote:

Spryt wrote:

Everyone keeps coming with the same argument dps vs utility and how chanters shouldn't be top dps etc, etc. They are not top dps. They were not top dps in TSO, they were not top dps in RoK or any expansion before that. A lot of balancing has been done over the years to bring them more in line with other classes. But whatever they did in SF is just too much. The gap is now way too big. If chanters are ment to be doing bard dps then we should atleast have equally good buffs as bards. All illu buffs except haste a bard has an improved version of.

Maybe we play different games, but I've seen chanters at rogue level dps for sometime.  Frequently higher in heroic content with shorter fight times due to faster ramping classes having more of an advantage.

Are you suggesting, as things are right now, you are not behind rogues and ahead of healers?  Are you ahead of or behind the troub?  What about the dirge?

I fully understand people are upset they can't outclass others while playing a utility class.  It was great fun pwning t1 dps on my coercer in tso groups.  It was fun getitng  in the top 5 in the raid parse as well. However, I'm not surprised that SoE thought that needed fixing.  I'm not surprised that base dps potential is segmented as it is now.

Sure I'll miss being OP, but well, who doesn't?

Maybe we are playing different games. But at the end on TSO when everyone had pretty much all instance loot available and almost all contested gear differences were quite small. And chanters in my guild were most of the time between the rouges above the bards. So top was sorc/pred then summoner/rogue then chanter then bards then fighters and healers last. Now in TSO the top looks about the same except chanters have dropped down to between bards and healers.

So imo chanters were not OP. They were right where they needed to be. And most of the complaints about them being OP dps wise is due to sorc casual players getting outparsed by avatar geared illu in some heroic pug.

So many times have I had people say to me in random pug "omg illu are so OP this game is so unbalanced" without even considering I have way better gear, more aa, more master spells and have been playing this class for years and they are on some alt/casual that just refer a friend boxed to 80 in 3 days and just bought new T2 shard gear.

Well those people got what they wanted. In SF a T2/T3 sorc/sum will be doing equal or more dps then a avatar geared illu. But maybe that's the way it's ment to be?

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Old 02-23-2010, 04:23 PM   #68
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shaunfletcher wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Good luck finding players that pay their monthly fee so they can make others have more fun, more epee.

And yet, you basically just shouted that you lost your epee and wont stand for it because parsing high is the only fun to be had.. of course you would be parsing pretty low with no healers, no bards etc, but what do you care, its all about your own parsing leet skillz right?

This obsession that only big dps is fun is.. well its silly.

Say whatever you want, my main is now mystic.

Enchanter is a mage class, so either dps or well CC.  Since there is no CC, then dps.  Buff doesn't take any active play on the player, unless  you call it fun play by just casting single target buff after each death.

Again,  have fun finding players that will pay monthly fee so they can cast single target buffs after each death.

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Old 02-23-2010, 04:30 PM   #69
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[email protected] wrote:

shaunfletcher wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Good luck finding players that pay their monthly fee so they can make others have more fun, more epee.

And yet, you basically just shouted that you lost your epee and wont stand for it because parsing high is the only fun to be had.. of course you would be parsing pretty low with no healers, no bards etc, but what do you care, its all about your own parsing leet skillz right?

This obsession that only big dps is fun is.. well its silly.

Say whatever you want, my main is now mystic.

Enchanter is a mage class, so either dps or well CC.  Since there is no CC, then dps.  Buff doesn't take any active play on the player, unless  you call it fun play by just casting single target buff after each death.

Again,  have fun finding players that will pay monthly fee so they can cast single target buffs after each death.

Sums it up perfectly.

No-one enjoys being a buff bot.

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Old 02-23-2010, 04:33 PM   #70
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To the people wanting tank dps nerfed. A large portion of the dps you see is from things like bane warding thorns and other buffs put on us from other people. My SK's dps is well over half when soloing as with a group. With the stuff living the same amount of time.
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Old 02-23-2010, 04:33 PM   #71
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Spryt wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Geothe wrote:

chanters -should- be getting outparsed by quite a few classes.Sorcs/Preds should be on top;  then summoners/rogues; then chanters/bards.

Complete garbage dude.  < ranting removed >

Also, you can take your DPS tiers from KOS and leave them there.  It's been stated how many times now that they have no bearing on anything currently.

If some classes aren't supposed to outdamage the utility classes.  why would they be sought for raids?  We could grab our tanks  ( 2 or 3) then our healers ( 6 to 7 ) and fill the rest with chanters and bards ( 14 - 16 ) ...  play some round robin with some buffs and rule the world.  Well, maybe you'd fit a hate transfer person or two in there...

Some classes are designed to outdamage other classes.

If Sorcerers and Predators did not provide comparably large amounts of DPS to a Raid they would have no reason to be in the Raid to begin with...

The listing of tiers we saw was old and outdated, however it is generally easy to see that certain classes by design, should be putting out larger numbers then some other classes.   Gear and Player Skill taken into account of course.

 If every class did similar DPS and had similar utility ( played and geared well ) then we might as well raid with 4 tanks and 20 healers!

Yes some classes should be doing more dps then others to balance the utility vs dps.

By the looks of SF AA SoE are spreading the utility a lot more then to the traditional bard/chanter buffers. Wizards get some kind of melee gift proc spell, I think conj get something similar.

So the gap between the amount of utility a chanter brings to raids/groups compared to other mages is getting smaller, yet the amount of dps chanters do compared to other mages is getting a lot bigger.

I don't think anyone is saying chanters should be T1 dps but why does the gap between them and other dps have to be so big? Bards have way more to offer in terms of group buffs (even their single target ones UT/BC are superior to the illu ones) compared to chanters yet they are now doing the same or more dps.

Did you even read what I was responding to? 

The poster I was responding too certainly appears to expect top dps potential out of his utility class.  And similar dps potential out of most classes.  

Chanter DPS was out of line.  There is going to be a reshuffling of who is where in the DPS chart this expansion, new level cap you know.  Summoner's sucked it up for the last 2 expansions.  At least you guys have utility to get you in raids, they had hearts and shards...

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Old 02-23-2010, 04:39 PM   #72
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[email protected] wrote:

Again,  have fun finding players that will pay monthly fee so they can cast single target buffs after each death.

Not really a problem, I've got a line of players that will roll any class I request if it means a guaranteed raid slot.

Sure, we're going to have some turn over with these class changes, but I don't expect having any trouble finding classes in demand.

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Old 02-23-2010, 04:44 PM   #73
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LivelyHound wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

shaunfletcher wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Good luck finding players that pay their monthly fee so they can make others have more fun, more epee.

And yet, you basically just shouted that you lost your epee and wont stand for it because parsing high is the only fun to be had.. of course you would be parsing pretty low with no healers, no bards etc, but what do you care, its all about your own parsing leet skillz right?

This obsession that only big dps is fun is.. well its silly.

Say whatever you want, my main is now mystic.

Enchanter is a mage class, so either dps or well CC.  Since there is no CC, then dps.  Buff doesn't take any active play on the player, unless  you call it fun play by just casting single target buff after each death.

Again,  have fun finding players that will pay monthly fee so they can cast single target buffs after each death.

Sums it up perfectly.

No-one enjoys being a buff bot.

LoL.  Actively having to focus on a groups power WHILE DPS'ing as much as possible is hardly playing a buff bot.  SOE has just moved the focus from strictly DPS while buff-bot'ing, to POWER+DPS while buff-bot'ing.  You know, more of a focus into where the class was once envisioned to be.

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Old 02-23-2010, 04:49 PM   #74
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[email protected] wrote:

lol, I will laugh so hard at those raiders that scream for chanter nerf when their chanters quit.

I already replaced my main. 

I am not your freaking buff bot sitting in your back quietly and buff you immediately if  you die.  Good luck finding players that pay their monthly fee so they can make others have more fun, more epee.

......

Say whatever you want, my main is now mystic.

Enchanter is a mage class, so either dps or well CC.  Since there is no CC, then dps.  Buff doesn't take any active play on the player, unless  you call it fun play by just casting single target buff after each death.

Again,  have fun finding players that will pay monthly fee so they can cast single target buffs after each death.

So... you're tired of buffing people and being utility and just supporting other people... so you're going to play a mystic?  Are you not going to rebuff people in your group when they die?  Or are you not going to "sit in your back quietly" and do your job as a healer?

Seriously, I don't understand the rage.  Ok, so enchanters now have a base crit modifier of 1.30  Guess what it was in TSO???  1.30  So let's get away from calling this a "nerf" and start calling it a boost to other classes.  Cause that's what it is.  Also, you have AAs to increase you base damage by quite a bit, and even one to increase your crit damage.  Probably more so from AAs than sorcerers or summoners do.

But that's besides the point, because as many others have stated - you're not supposed to do as much DPS as other mages.  If you did, there would be no point to the four other mage classes.

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Old 02-23-2010, 05:02 PM   #75
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Well you had a 1.3 multiplier in TSO and your set pieces blew. In SF you have a 1.3 multiplier and you can equip all the gear other mages use. This means 12 potency shoulders, 12 crit bonus pants, 12 crit bonus chest, etc. When my warlock equipped his new mid-tier raid set pants the other day and broke his six set his crit bonus increased by .6, when a chanter does it they'll be gaining 10.6 crit bonus. My guess is they changed the modifiers so that you'd end up where you were relatively once you get gear instead of moving ahead.

Also wanted to address:

Banditman wrote:

What's the difference between a terrible Troub and a good one?  Not really all that much.  That's why Troubs remain one of the least played classes in the game.

The difference between a terrible troub and a good one is light years in my experience. Good troubs get UT up quick if someone dies, time precision with their troub mates to keep it up, coordinate buffs with other troubs to the fight, jcap people in an appropriate order and when it'll do the most good, use their new power AA if necessary, slap resist/wis debuffs on add waves, countersong when it'd be most useful, and now they have RO and VC if they get em fixed which raises the skill cap even more. They can do okay if they get buffs, they just usually don't because they're sitting in a mage group. If they know how to take advantage of 100% procs they can do nasty things to encounters.

I can tell the difference between good and terrible troubs immediately if they're in my group, it's just not as easy as looking down a DPS chart. Although good troubs do appreciably more DPS.

That said, I would like to see troubs doing more DPS on their own, especially since they go without dirge buffs a lot.

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Old 02-23-2010, 05:35 PM   #76
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SageGaspar wrote:

Not to talk crazy here but you had a 1.3 multiplier in TSO and your set pieces blew. In SF you have a 1.3 multiplier and you can equip all the gear other mages use. This means 12 potency shoulders, 12 crit bonus pants, 12 crit bonus chest, etc. When my warlock equipped his new mid-tier raid set pants the other day and broke his six set his crit bonus increased by .6, when a chanter does it they'll be gaining 10.6 crit bonus. The sky is not falling. I think they changed the modifiers so that you'd end up where you were relatively once you get gear instead of moving ahead.

Maybe you are right, but here is my experience so far:

Two nights ago, we had a raid:  here is the parse order roughly:

Assassin,

wizard,

summoner,

2 rogues,

shadow knight,

dirge,

monk,

inquisitor,

enchanter.

Before expansion,  enchanter was usually above shadow knight and around 2 rogues.  Now, we are even lower than inquisitor. lol. 

Also to people who said if enchanter could do competitive dps, raids won't bring any other mages? Are you smoking something?  Did raid just fill mage group with 5 illusionists?  The raid brought illy for buffs, and it will still be same in SF.

You do realize TC has huge benefit to sorcerers and little benefit to enchanters?  Also summoner has awsome buff now.  So please don't just hypothecize something that has never been true.

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Old 02-23-2010, 05:38 PM   #77
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SageGaspar wrote:

Not to talk crazy here but you had a 1.3 multiplier in TSO and your set pieces blew. In SF you have a 1.3 multiplier and you can equip all the gear other mages use. This means 12 potency shoulders, 12 crit bonus pants, 12 crit bonus chest, etc. When my warlock equipped his new mid-tier raid set pants the other day and broke his six set his crit bonus increased by .6, when a chanter does it they'll be gaining 10.6 crit bonus. The sky is not falling. I think they changed the modifiers so that you'd end up where you were relatively once you get gear instead of moving ahead.

Yup ..BUT it is not as easy as that. The differences in base crit are big but it is the not the only thing that is causing the large DPS gap. 

That 20% crit bonus is equal to about 16% potency with about +60 ability (or another 20% crit bonus) to give us an even ground as far as gear modifiers. An enchanters only benfit over the Sorcerer is that they cap on +ability quicker and can put more focus into other stats.

The problem is that all these modifiers only increase the DPS gap caused by the great difference in the base DPS of the spells and how the different classes do damage.

Spell double attack can be huge for a Sorc but many of the enchanter's spells dont work with Spell double attack. Coercers are worst off here because a huge amount of damage is based on proccing spells that do not stack (makes double attack useless).

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Old 02-23-2010, 05:45 PM   #78
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[email protected] wrote:

SageGaspar wrote:

Not to talk crazy here but you had a 1.3 multiplier in TSO and your set pieces blew. In SF you have a 1.3 multiplier and you can equip all the gear other mages use. This means 12 potency shoulders, 12 crit bonus pants, 12 crit bonus chest, etc. When my warlock equipped his new mid-tier raid set pants the other day and broke his six set his crit bonus increased by .6, when a chanter does it they'll be gaining 10.6 crit bonus. The sky is not falling. I think they changed the modifiers so that you'd end up where you were relatively once you get gear instead of moving ahead.

Yup ..BUT it is not as easy as that. The differences in base crit are big but it is the not the only thing that is causing the large DPS gap. 

That 20% crit bonus is equal to about 16% potency with about +60 ability (or another 20% crit bonus) to give us an even ground as far as gear modifiers. An enchanters only benfit over the Sorcerer is that they cap on +ability quicker and can put more focus into other stats.

The problem is that all these modifiers only increase the DPS gap caused by the great difference in the base DPS of the spells and how the different classes do damage.

Spell double attack can be huge for a Sorc but many of the enchanter's spells dont work with Spell double attack. Coercers are worst off here because a huge amount of damage is based on proccing spells that do not stack (makes double attack useless).

QFT.

Time warper, guaranteed spell double attack, will benefit hugely to smart sorcerers but does very little to enchanters since enchanter's larguest spell is master strike, lol.   So thoes spell double attack gear is gonna increase the gap further.

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Old 02-23-2010, 05:57 PM   #79
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for those that were not paying attention,

the comment about nerfing tank dps was sarcasm.

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Old 02-23-2010, 06:27 PM   #80
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dlove183 wrote:

for those that were not paying attention,

the comment about nerfing tank dps was sarcasm.

Yes, cause the way to invalidate someone else's arguement is to attack them, not their arguement.

Internet forums 101 SMILEY

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Old 02-23-2010, 06:59 PM   #81
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I cant believe people still play Illy's, to all the raid guilds with enough Illy's you better hope to god that SoE does not do another mass un-attune because most of those Illy's will xfer all their gear to a Sorc, Summoner or just sell their character.

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Old 02-23-2010, 07:01 PM   #82
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Yes, cause the way to invalidate someone else's arguement is to attack them, not their arguement. Internet forums 101

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I'm pretty sure I wasn't attacking you. I was just giving you a different look at your own arguement. you think tank dps should also be nerfed but only if they give you more tools for tanking.

well, they took away chanter dps and didn't give us any tools to do anything else. how would the tanks be screaming if they did it to them?

I agree with you about chanter being last in dps dps but you completely ignore the fact that we were already last in mage dps. this still doesn't change the fact that the class has lost the last thing that made it a fun class to play. tanking is fun even if you have no dps because you have a job to do. now my job is to cast 400 spells in a fight to be 16th on the parse. yay!

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Old 02-23-2010, 07:10 PM   #83
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You can have an in-demand class.

You can have a class noone will play.

You cannot have an in-demand class that noone will play.

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Old 02-23-2010, 07:13 PM   #84
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shaunfletcher wrote:

You can have an in-demand class.

You can have a class noone will play.

You cannot have an in-demand class that noone will play.

troubs?

they are like free plat on my server. you just don't see them.

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Old 02-23-2010, 07:34 PM   #85
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Enchanters, especially Illusionists, are just like Rangers. Everyone loves to hate them and many are clearly taking some perverse pleasure in watching the game ruined for a lot of players.

Bottom line is we took a lot of nerfing in TSO and by the end of the expansion we were just where we should have been. The massive nerf brought on by the crit modifier was a totally unnecessary over-reaction to the fact that we hold so many spots on a raid roster.

The laughable thing is that it has done nothing to address that as our DPS wasn't the problem and never has been the problem. You will still see the same number of illusionists in each raid, unless this nerf proves to be so incredibly ham fisted that the sum total of our DPS and buffs is less than that of other mages. Even then we may retain the spots for power regen.

Whether it was broken proc mechanics or broken buff mechanics that made us OP, the core DPS numbers of an illusionist have never been wrong and never needed this "fix". Shoddy combat mechanics have always been the culprit. This crit modifier mechanic is already proving to be yet another ill conceived idea that is bleeding players slowly, in the way that broken summoners, broken rangers, broken druids etc have done before.

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Old 02-23-2010, 07:42 PM   #86
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dlove183 wrote:

I agree with you about chanter being last in dps dps but you completely ignore the fact that we were already last in mage dps. this still doesn't change the fact that the class has lost the last thing that made it a fun class to play. tanking is fun even if you have no dps because you have a job to do. now my job is to cast 400 spells in a fight to be 16th on the parse. yay!

Last in mage dps yes, but you were still solidly in 2nd tier dps (5th on the parse?).  Now your in line with other utility classes.

All I can say is be careful what you wish for, cause since having control effects that work on epics are too overpowering, what they might just give you instead are abilities to remove control effects from others and let you share the healer cure load along with your lower dps.  Cause trust me nothing makes you want to login like spending every night removing control effects SMILEY

Btw, lets be realistic, your talking around 10th on the parse not 16th.  You're seeing some abnormalities atm, but when people are geared you should recognize you are currently handicapped by the TSO enchanter itemization.

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Old 02-23-2010, 07:46 PM   #87
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[email protected] wrote:

dlove183 wrote:

I agree with you about chanter being last in dps dps but you completely ignore the fact that we were already last in mage dps. this still doesn't change the fact that the class has lost the last thing that made it a fun class to play. tanking is fun even if you have no dps because you have a job to do. now my job is to cast 400 spells in a fight to be 16th on the parse. yay!

Last in mage dps yes, but you were still solidly in 2nd tier dps (5th on the parse?).  Now your in line with other utility classes.

All I can say is be careful what you wish for, cause since having control effects that work on epics are too overpowering, what they might just give you instead are abilities to remove control effects from others and let you share the healer cure load along with your lower dps.  Cause trust me nothing makes you want to login like spending every night removing control effects

Btw, lets be realistic, your talking around 10th on the parse not 16th.  You're seeing some abnormalities atm, but when people are geared you should recognize you are currently handicapped by the TSO enchanter itemization.

Then even more would quit, maybe if they nerf Illy's enough we can go to two guilds per server capable of having Illy's.

Until those Illy's realize how lame/[Removed for Content] they are compared to everyone else..

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Old 02-23-2010, 07:51 PM   #88
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[email protected] wrote:

You're seeing some abnormalities atm, but when people are geared you should recognize you are currently handicapped by the TSO enchanter itemization.

This is really a big part ... we just dont know where we will fall once everyone has had time to gear up and get all thier t9 masters. Everyone else got a boost just by logging in.. we will have to work for ours.

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Old 02-23-2010, 07:51 PM   #89
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Anduri wrote:

Enchanters, especially Illusionists, are just like Rangers. Everyone loves to hate them and many are clearly taking some perverse pleasure in watching the game ruined for a lot of players.

Bottom line is we took a lot of nerfing in TSO and by the end of the expansion we were just where we should have been. The massive nerf brought on by the crit modifier was a totally unnecessary over-reaction to the fact that we hold so many spots on a raid roster.

The laughable thing is that it has done nothing to address that as our DPS wasn't the problem and never has been the problem. You will still see the same number of illusionists in each raid, unless this nerf proves to be so incredibly ham fisted that the sum total of our DPS and buffs is less than that of other mages. Even then we may retain the spots for power regen.

Whether it was broken proc mechanics or broken buff mechanics that made us OP, the core DPS numbers of an illusionist have never been wrong and never needed this "fix". Shoddy combat mechanics have always been the culprit. This crit modifier mechanic is already proving to be yet another ill conceived idea that is bleeding players slowly, in the way that broken summoners, broken rangers, broken druids etc have done before.

I never said anything about hating illusionists.  I don't take perverse pleasure from watching the game ruined for a lot of players.  I'm just taking some time to point out the game was already "ruined" for a number of other classes (say, conjy and necro for example), and by helping out those people so they get to enjoy the game, you guys are suddenly in a tizzy.

DPS may never have been the problem for you, but it was a problem for other classes.  And you're basically agreeing that nothing is going to change with illys in raids, even if things really are dramatically horrible (which I don't have enough evidence to believe yet).

So... if enchanters are still going to be wanted as much as they always have, and they are going to give out buffs the same as they always have, and they are going to regen power the same as they always have... what has changed?  The only thing I hear is DPS which, as I said before, isn't a "nerf" because you didn't actually lose anything.  The only argument is that other classes got a better boost in DPS this expansion.  So what this all boils down to is even though you guys are still as useful to the progression of your groups and guilds, even though you are still an incredibly important part of this game, you are not happy because you're not going to top the parse.  End of story.

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Old 02-23-2010, 08:10 PM   #90
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Stubbswick wrote:

Anduri wrote:

Enchanters, especially Illusionists, are just like Rangers. Everyone loves to hate them and many are clearly taking some perverse pleasure in watching the game ruined for a lot of players.

Bottom line is we took a lot of nerfing in TSO and by the end of the expansion we were just where we should have been. The massive nerf brought on by the crit modifier was a totally unnecessary over-reaction to the fact that we hold so many spots on a raid roster.

The laughable thing is that it has done nothing to address that as our DPS wasn't the problem and never has been the problem. You will still see the same number of illusionists in each raid, unless this nerf proves to be so incredibly ham fisted that the sum total of our DPS and buffs is less than that of other mages. Even then we may retain the spots for power regen.

Whether it was broken proc mechanics or broken buff mechanics that made us OP, the core DPS numbers of an illusionist have never been wrong and never needed this "fix". Shoddy combat mechanics have always been the culprit. This crit modifier mechanic is already proving to be yet another ill conceived idea that is bleeding players slowly, in the way that broken summoners, broken rangers, broken druids etc have done before.

I never said anything about hating illusionists.  I don't take perverse pleasure from watching the game ruined for a lot of players.  I'm just taking some time to point out the game was already "ruined" for a number of other classes (say, conjy and necro for example), and by helping out those people so they get to enjoy the game, you guys are suddenly in a tizzy.

DPS may never have been the problem for you, but it was a problem for other classes.  And you're basically agreeing that nothing is going to change with illys in raids, even if things really are dramatically horrible (which I don't have enough evidence to believe yet).

So... if enchanters are still going to be wanted as much as they always have, and they are going to give out buffs the same as they always have, and they are going to regen power the same as they always have... what has changed?  The only thing I hear is DPS which, as I said before, isn't a "nerf" because you didn't actually lose anything.  The only argument is that other classes got a better boost in DPS this expansion.  So what this all boils down to is even though you guys are still as useful to the progression of your groups and guilds, even though you are still an incredibly important part of this game, you are not happy because you're not going to top the parse.  End of story.

If you are playing an Illy right now you are telling me and others like myself that you suck at playing a wizard so much that you had to roll wizard light for a raid slot.

Many things could have changed, they could have gimped PoM, IA or TC.  Nerfing their dps took the only enjoyable part of playing this class and urinated all over it.

To those who say Illy's will do more by the end of SF thank you for that awesome insight Im guessing that you must also be the first person to raise his hand after finding Waldo.

In short Illy's were fun to play, it took alot of gear and alot of talent to do very good dps as an Illy.

Now they are mediocre wizards with passive buffs, except they are needed and no one with any in-game ability will want to play one.

Have fun recruiting Illy's because chances are they will be colour-blind, stupid and/or lazy/instant gratification people that will stay for weeks rather then months or years.

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