Combat System and Stat Cap Improvements - Feedback Requested

[wesblueeyes]

Just have to say it seems you all have learned some hard lessons. First off it was very admirable of SOE to finally come out in the open with changes BEFORE the release of an expansion (unlike some items done in SWG) and it was nice to see the talk about fears in a combat change system talked about in first paragraph.

 

Having extensively read what was written I don't really see this being a bad thing, so my fears  have really been put aside and I think this will indeed do some good. However the math must be wrong on skills dont we gain 5 points per level not 1? I also like to see that avoidance users like me might actually start being useful again in fights instead of seeing a 70%+ avoidance act more like 30-40% dodge chance.

[Marcuzs]

Forgive me if this was already asked since I really only had the time to skim through most of these pages.

With the increase in the stat cap will the way CAs scale be looked at as well?

Here is an example of what I mean(not exact numbers, just top of my head):

At lvl 60 with a stat cap of 440 STR, Sniper shot M1 does about 8600 damage max. When the level was raised to 70 and the cap to 510, Sniper shot went from doing 8600 dmg at 60 with 440 str to 7900 at 60 with 440 str. So in order to get back to doing 8600 dmg max I had to increase my stats back to the cap just to do the same damage I was before.

So my fear is this will not be changed and with an increase in stat cap to 1070, this skill would drop from 8600 dmg again to half that.

Granted the example I chose does not have an upgrade in T7 but that does not change the fact that any CA received prior to level 70 will decrease in damage as you level unless you gain more stats. So it's not really an sense of character progression trying to reach the stat cap just to regain what you already had.

[Sonaht]

Any chance we can get a graphical representation of stat caps vs current stat level like for Harvesting and Adventure in the Skills interface? This would obviate the need for people to wonder about formulas and make it a lot easier to set yourself up for your current project if you could see the effect on a bar chart.[My apologies if this has been said, the thread has gotten very long and I confess I didn't read every single reply.]

[JamesRay]

From the perspective of casters, I see the following improvements:

1. No more fizzles
2. Help from Focus is essentially doubled, from 10 to 20% (potentially)
3. Resistance modifier is essentially doubled, from -10 to -20% (potentially)
4. Avoidance/Mitigation from physical attacks weighs more on the lower end, which should help casters

My confusion is the actual spell resists, as it pertains to PvP.

• Maximum mitigation/resistance numbers for current level has been increased from [ Level * 80 ] to [ Level * 150 ]
• Damage mitigated now has diminishing returns, with the break-even point set at 4000 for level 70 players

The first sentence reads as if the cap for resists is essentially doubling, making the resist percentage drop if your resist numbers were the same they are today as they are after the changes are made.
However, the second sentence makes it seem as if hitting 4000 will now be the equivalent of capping your resists currently, IE 80%, with the possibility of going higher if you have the right gear.

I've got a 70 conj who caps his resists for a particular element by hitting around 5000ish. 
It seems as if it will be even easier for people to essentially minimize mage spell damage.  Regardless if spells land more often, if they are even more easily mitigated away through resistances, I'm not sure how that is an improvement.

I'm just curious if this mechanic will be treated differently in PvP, or if my assertions are correct.

Message Edited by JamesRay on 09-29-2006 06:51 AM

[Banditman]

One question I've not seen answer yet, but I think needs to be:We understand that the break even point for mitigation is currently set to 4000 for a L70 character.  What we do not see is where the SECOND intersection of the graphs occurs - this is to say, where is the "sweet spot" that we need to reach in order to begin receiving BENEFIT from the new curve?The nerf zone starts at 4000 mitigation, where does it end?

[Ordate]

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Banditman wrote:
One question I've not seen answer yet, but I think needs to be:


We understand that the break even point for mitigation is currently set to 4000 for a L70 character.  What we do not see is where the SECOND intersection of the graphs occurs - this is to say, where is the "sweet spot" that we need to reach in order to begin receiving BENEFIT from the new curve?


The nerf zone starts at 4000 mitigation, where does it end?

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Here here!

[TheSummoned]

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wesblueeyes wrote:

Having extensively read what was written I don't really see this being a bad thing, so my fears  have really been put aside and I think this will indeed do some good. However the math must be wrong on skills dont we gain 5 points per level not 1? I also like to see that avoidance users like me might actually start being useful again in fights instead of seeing a 70%+ avoidance act more like 30-40% dodge chance.

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To cap your skills in the current system, you need to gain 1 skill point per character level to reach the cap ontop of the base skill. So basically, it was 6 x [character level] = Skill cap. With the new system, you will have to gain 1.5 skill points per character level ontop the base skill, so the new cap is 6.5 x [character level] = New Skill cap. So at level 70, the new skill cap would be 455 instead of 420.

[Huna]

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Banditman wrote:
One question I've not seen answer yet, but I think needs to be:


We understand that the break even point for mitigation is currently set to 4000 for a L70 character.  What we do not see is where the SECOND intersection of the graphs occurs - this is to say, where is the "sweet spot" that we need to reach in order to begin receiving BENEFIT from the new curve?


The nerf zone starts at 4000 mitigation, where does it end?

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That's what I'm wondering also.  Right now I'm past 4K mitigation, but I'm not up to the uber mitigation yet.  So, I'll be effectively nerfed, plus any increase I get will have diminishing returns, so it'll be harder for me to catch up to the ubers.  I primarily solo, and yes I can take out lots of heroic mobs (non nameds) so I guess I'm one of the people the nerf was aimed at.  Now, I can deal with the nerf if there is decent items that I can get to get me out of the nerf zone.  But, it looks to me like I'll have to raid to get anything better than I have now, and it'll take me quite a while to get caught back up now.  Right now the only reason I log on is to work on stuff like the claymore quests, solo content/items sucks so I'm stuck killing heroics for any kind of challenge or reward.  If I get nerfed so that I can't kill heroics anymore, and they don't add worthwhile solo content (along with worthwhile items), looks like it'll be the end of the game for me.

[aislynn00]

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Banditman wrote:
One question I've not seen answer yet, but I think needs to be:


We understand that the break even point for mitigation is currently set to 4000 for a L70 character.  What we do not see is where the SECOND intersection of the graphs occurs - this is to say, where is the "sweet spot" that we need to reach in order to begin receiving BENEFIT from the new curve?


The nerf zone starts at 4000 mitigation, where does it end?

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The curve shown pertains to strength, agility, stamina, wisdom, and intelligence.  It has no bearing on the mitigation changes.

We will observe an improved effect of raw mitigation from 1 to 4000, with the greatest improvements being near the low end, while around the 4000 mitigation mark, the effect of raw mitigation will end up at the same level it currently is for the equivalent raw mitigation.  That is to say, at 70th level vs a 70th level mob, 4000 mitigation will mean about 4000/70 = 57% mitigation effect.

After the changes go live, in order to achieve 80% mitigation effect at 70th level vs a 70th level mob, you will have to sport no less than 150 * 70 = 10,500 raw mitigation.  Compare that to the 5600 raw mitigation currently needed to achieve the same effect.

Obviously, nobody is going to reach that anytime soon, which is part of the point of the changes: buffing mitigation to the fullest extent will again mean something, as will mitigation gear upgrades, both now as well as in future expansions, without having to raise the level cap--and thank heaven for that.

At any rate, to answer your question, the "nerf zone" for mitigation and resists ends at the new mitigation cap: 150 * 70 = 10,500 vs 70th level mobs, even higher for 70+ level mobs.

Message Edited by aislynn00 on 09-29-2006 07:17 AM

[Articulas]

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Gaige wrote:

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Snublefot wrote:So its Expansion Nerf Day again In other words, expect to have less hp, power, damage and mitigation compared to NPCs after LU28.I can live with it, its kind of expected...

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All this negativity, I guess I just don't get it.

Look at it this way:  Even if you are among the few players who are currently so capped that they are in fact nerfed... at least you have room to grow.  Had this not changed, come EoF you'd have no progression in front of you at all.

If you were a guardian in KoS with 6200 self buffed mit, 9k hp, and 510 stamina... what do you upgrade?  Nothing really.

This change is better for everyone in the long run, even the people who will feel a bit of a nerf on launch day.. if only because instead of standing in front of a brick wall in regards to progression, they'll now be at an intersection with a long road in front of them.

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thanks Gaige! all this math is killing me, as i'm not really that good in it or good at trying to decipher what they were trying to do. but this makes sense!

[AChampi]

Just to be clear the nerf area in the graph is just a comparison to the existing system.If mobs are no long "designed as if the caps have been hit" and are scaled to the new model then this "nerf" is meaningless.It really depends on what SOE do with the mobs.[Opinion]I anticipate they will be changing the raid mobs slightly but may leave the heroic/solo mobs alone. If that is the case it may become slightly harder for the raid equiped melee types to solo heroics (as they will tend to sit in the nerf area for some of their stats - mitigation/str/agi/etc.)[Caster's don't use the combat mechanics to solo heroics - they use mob management skills so with the no fizzles may actually be more reliable][/Opinion] -Slic.

[Terron]

Overall these changes look good, but I have a few specific comments

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Gallenite wrote:

• Caster skill improvements are not as much fun as they could be and do not have as much practical use as they should.

Caster skill improvements have no noticable effect so are no fun at all.

• Fizzle nevermore! The entire Fizzle mechanic has been removed

Fizzle was just an annoyance, but an alternative would have ben to let it be there for the early versions of spells but go away with higher level versions. It can be boring just getting an new version of an exisitng spell with increased numbers. Having something extra like not fizzling would make it more exciting.

Attack Skill

• Skill caps have increased from [ 1 * Level ] to [ 1.5 * Level ]

I assume you mean from 5 * level to 7.5 * level.

Attackspeed/DPS

• Attack speed and DPS caps have increased to 200%
• Uses a diminishing returns curve to determine the actual amount of attackspeed and DPS modification, which caps out at 125% actual modification when reaching the cap

Since iit will not longer be an actual % incrase it would be better to remove the %. to avoid confusion. Will you be diaplaying the actual %age as well as the sum of the bonuses on the Persona window?

• Casting Skill bonuses were not balanced in relative benefit that is granted through Melee and Avoidance Skills

Casters did not have as much incentive to increase their casting skills as melee classes because they did not receive as much benefit when reaching their caps. This resulted in bonuses to skills that favored melee classes much more than casters, which is more apparent in raid situations and fighting overcon encounters. Some of the specifics:

The effects of melee skills seems minimal in most situations. E,g, a difference of 150 made no noticable difference to how often I hit at one stage).  The casting skills were even worse becuase we did not know where to look for the effects. Perhaps they are more to players who raid regularly, but the effects should be more noticable overall.

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[AChampi]

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aislynn00 wrote:

The curve shown pertains to strength, agility, stamina, wisdom, and intelligence.  It has no bearing on the mitigation changes.

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As far as I am aware the curve is still applicable for mitigation (just change the 40% to 4000)It was intended to be a general representation of a diminishing reward curve with the explanation of the current mechanics. -Slic.

Message Edited by AChampion on 09-29-2006 07:38 AM

[Greenion]

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AChampion didzt quoth:
Just to be clear the nerf area in the graph is just a comparison to the existing system.

If mobs are no long "designed as if the caps have been hit" and are scaled to the new model then this "nerf" is meaningless.
It really depends on what SOE do with the mobs.

-Slic.

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interesting. thx.

[aislynn00]

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AChampion wrote:

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aislynn00 wrote:

The curve shown pertains to strength, agility, stamina, wisdom, and intelligence.  It has no bearing on the mitigation changes.

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As far as I am aware the curve is still applicable for mitigation (just change the 40% to 4000)

It was intended to be a general representation of a diminishing reward curve with the explanation of the current mechanics.

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So, you actually believe that the developers would make it possible to achieve more than 80% mitigation effect?  If so, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

[Onz]

Will we be seeing any class balancing as a result of these changes?  I potentially see some class balancing issues that might arise. For example, I play a mystic and with excellent gear I can barely make the wis cap because I do not have a self wis buff.  Compared to say a Fury/Templar/Warden so have some type of wisdom self buff (and can exceed the current wis cap easily), this might cause a disparity in power pools.  I am not saying this would happen but it seems some thought needs to be given to this and different subclasses have different buffs and with stats caps changing there is a possibility of unbalanced situations. Maybe other people can post examples they can think of based on the subclass they play. Thanks in advance if a response is posted. Ceoin Sorrowpalm Troops of Doom Guk Server

[Gareorn]

Gallenite:  Hopefully, you've looked into the stats on the relic gear and will adjust them accordingly.  For example, some Scout relic gear doesn't have any STR or INT on them.  For now this isn't a big problem becuase we can manage to reach the max for STR pretty easy and get to a somewhat respectable INT level.  If the cap is raised to the level proposed, you essentially have just made this gear worthless.

 

If you haven't look into this yet, please do.

[Vaiko]

Is anyone else concerned that this change is tied to a fixed release date, independent if it’s ready or not to be deployed?

Thanks Gallenite for the heads up. Next step, I guess, is to give all interested people access to beta and look at their feedback. I assume that some of the given facts are kind of vague because everything can be subject of change, am I correct? For example: the slope (shape) of the different curves will be up to tuning based on the data gathered in beta?

[Vaiko]

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Gareorn wrote:

Gallenite:  Hopefully, you've looked into the stats on the relic gear and will adjust them accordingly.  For example, some Scout relic gear doesn't have any STR or INT on them.  For now this isn't a big problem becuase we can manage to reach the max for STR pretty easy and get to a somewhat respectable INT level.  If the cap is raised to the level proposed, you essentially have just made this gear worthless.

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I think the changes are made in regards to future gear, not retrospective to the existing gear. I think you can expect some amazing items lined up with the next expansion and you may not like to miss it.

[AChampi]

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aislynn00 wrote:So, you actually believe that the developers would make it possible to achieve more than 80% mitigation effect?  If so, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

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I deliberately did not put numbers in the graph.Using SOE's terminology of survivability (as the 80% is sort of meaningless without interpretation) I believe SOE is proposing having high survivability than today as you approach the limits of the new model. The break even point is 4000 mitigation between the two models but the total potential benefit (survivability) is greater as you approach the new mitigation maximums (as depicted in the graph).Note: The graph is not to scale and is just illustrative. -Slic.

Message Edited by AChampion on 09-29-2006 08:25 AM

[Druzgotek]

Well, this looks like a decent nerf to my non-raiding toons. Some of them are at cap for their primary damage stats. Now their nukes and combat arts will do much less damage. I imagine the solo mobs in the new expansion will be tuned towards an average player like me. However, as my past experience has shown me, old world mobs will take forever to be tuned down.

Bottom line is, if I do not buy the expansion, I will be out of luck for a while. Old untuned content will be much more work to kill, and the small team at soe can only work so fast.

[Tobby]

Maybe I am mistaken and maybe this is covered in this long and complex set of threads but the following is stated –

Casting Skill

• Skill caps have increased from [ 1 * Level ] to [ 1.5 * Level ]
• Uses a diminishing returns curve similar to avoidance skills
• Actual hostile spell resistance modification has increased from -10% to -20% at maximum
• Beneficial spells that use casting skill, mostly affecting ministration, have their power costs reduced with increased skill
• Fizzle nevermore! The entire Fizzle mechanic has been removed

Focus Skill

• Skill caps have increased from [ 1 * Level ] to [ 1.5 * Level ]
• Focus has a maximum 20% instead of 10% to prevent damage interrupts
• Focus Skill also mitigates the chance of spell based Interrupts, Stifle, and Stun Effects from interrupting a spell that is already casting

I was under the STRONG impression Casting Skills and Focus were [ 5 * Level] already not 1 ??

What direction is this going and what is the real change to this as it will place a lvl 70 from the current base of 350 for skills of subjugation, focus, disruption, ordination, ministration as well as all weapon skills to a new base of 105?

Can we get some clarification on this and if its not these skills can we get an understanding of what these will cover?

Message Edited by Tobby on 09-29-2006 08:38 AM

[Mecrushu]

All stats capped and nothing left to do ( your class is what it is and not much you can do about it)

 Vs.

Having to make a decision which stats to focus on because there is no way anyone will cap all stats.

 

To me this concept has potential..

Seems that if a Monk wanted to be basically a dps class then he could decide to focus on those stats and effectively make a noticable difference in how his toon performed.  Oppositely if he wanted to be a raid tank the he could focus on mit stats and be able to make a noticable change in that direction.  He would have to suffer in some other stats to make up for the advantages he gained.

Same would apply for any class which woulld in my opinon create more diversity.

 

As for narrowing the gap between the fabled and legendary cant see it happening much.  Even though there is a curve now, it still boils down to better gear makes things easier.  The uber guilds and players will continue to be ubers becasue they will have the best gear and they will have access to gear that others dont. 

 

I look forward to the changes just because its different.

[Rahmn]

If skill A at 520 str does 1000damage, will it now do 2000 damage at 1040str?

[CoLD MeTaL]

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Gallenite wrote:Fizzle nevermore! The entire Fizzle mechanic has been removed

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MARR bless You!MARR bless You!MARR bless You!MARR bless You!MARR bless You!MARR bless You!MARR bless You!MARR bless You!MARR bless You!MARR bless You!MARR bless You!MARR bless You!

[Prodigus]

Thank you!  Although my Monk tanks very well (save for Epics), I look forward to these changes!-prodigus

[Woenk1]

Looks good for a start, casual players can take a bit more till the break point and raiders can become even tougher although harder.I wonder if the new caps will be reached with adorements...

[AbsentmindedMage]

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Gallenite wrote:

Creatures will have their damage values adjusted to account for the changes to mitigation.

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I am not sure if I like what you are proposing or not.  I can understand the diminishing returns curve.  My issue is with the statement above.  So, you are going to address mitigation and damage output then change the creatures to account for the mitigation increase you just did?  This implies that you are going to boost creature damage output.  Creatures already do substantial damage.  How will this affect soloability?I am suprised by the majority of players are walking around being stat capped.  Yeah, if they are raiders they might be but I find it hard to believe that typical players are.

[malachaio]

My one worry here is that new haste caps would mess up weapon delay and the possibility to time CA's so they can hit in between auto attacks.

 

If this happens it would hurt rogues dps pretty bad.

 

 

 

 

[TheSummoned]

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AbsentmindedMage wrote:

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Gallenite wrote:

Creatures will have their damage values adjusted to account for the changes to mitigation.

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I am not sure if I like what you are proposing or not.  I can understand the diminishing returns curve.  My issue is with the statement above.  So, you are going to address mitigation and damage output then change the creatures to account for the mitigation increase you just did?  This implies that you are going to boost creature damage output.  Creatures already do substantial damage.  How will this affect soloability?I am suprised by the majority of players are walking around being stat capped.  Yeah, if they are raiders they might be but I find it hard to believe that typical players are.

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Solo creatures are fine and will be left alone imo. If you'd read the whole post carefully, you'd realize that it's the nameds and the epics that will be readjusted. It's them that did crazy ammounts of damage to make plate tanks with their mitigation suffer somewhat.