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Old 10-18-2018, 09:54 PM   #1
Mermut

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All the heroic zones have a 'mysterious' debuff called Chaotic Leech that applies as soon as you enter.
It's description reads:
"Disrupts natural energies, reducing wards and healing to those afflicted."

So, I did a few tests.
In the library:
Mystic Ancestral Ward: 212m
Warden Constant Currents: 108m

Ruins of Rathe (T1 heroic)
Mystic Ancestral Ward: 28m
Warden Constant Currents: 28m


As a healer, this is troubling for a number of reasons:
1) The 'reduction' to heals is not specified in the debuff. We know what offensive stats we have to over come, because the mobs "Planar Guard" gives us the numbers. But the stats the healers have to deal with are hidden.
2) The reduction is huge.. but we don't know if it's a flat reduction, fervor effectiveness reduction, potency? crit bonus? Is it done before or after the fact? What, exactly, can we do to increase our effectiveness the most? We don't know.. because of 1) from above...
3) The small test with the warden and mystic implies that one of two things are happening with this debuff
3a) There are hard caps on heals/wards in these zones, so they will never, ever get easier to heal, no matter what gear the healer does or doesn't have/get. If true, this is extremely depressing as a healer. Never actually getting better/more effective no matter how much effort/gear you spend/get suggests there is no reason to put in the effort or get the gear. Frown
3b) Different heals and/or heal classes are affected differently.. so some classes may be hit harder by the debuff then other classes.


I'll be honest, I'm not happy with the idea of an artificial nerf to healer effectiveness, but that pales beside my feelings about the fact that the information about how and how much is hidden.

Edit: poped my warden into T2 zone and the ward went down to 22m... so as the zones get harder and mobs, presumably, start hitting harder, healers appear to get even LESS effective Frown
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Old 10-18-2018, 10:53 PM   #2
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Does the ward go down if you remove potency? Perhaps it is like the hidden potency mitigation from PoP. Toning down the power of all heals might actually even the playing field among healers combined with bleedthrough. Ward stacking isn't useless if wards are small enough to break before expiring, and HoT might not necessarily be complete heals every tick.

EDIT: would be great to see a state of healing overview that explains how all these changes are meant to work together so we can provide useful feedback
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Old 10-18-2018, 10:57 PM   #3
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It's clearly not just a potency issue. The mystic ward was almost twice the size of the warden ward in Myrist but they were both the same size inside Ruins of Rathe.

But you've illustrated my main point.. the lack of information we have about the debuff.
I'm realistic enough to know that the huge healing debuff is likely already 'a done deal'.. I'm hoping we can get transparency on the debuff so we, as healers, can either take steps to maximize our healing output... or worst case have it confirmed that it is out of our control.
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Old 10-18-2018, 11:02 PM   #4
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Smells a bit like some kind of a hard cap.

More hidden mechanics. Yay.
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Old 10-18-2018, 11:03 PM   #5
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Ah, yes i didn't notice till a second read through that it wasn't scaling based on the original size of the ward, which you illustrated. That is indeed troubling at first glance...
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Old 10-18-2018, 11:05 PM   #6
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The fact that a 200 and 100 Mill Ward both dropped to 28 sounds like a hard cap. Which is just as troublesome as % based heals. Actually worse in some ways. If they are heading for a version of the potency mit but for heals, at least we could eventually gear enough to get ahead. If it's hard capped, that doesn't sound very fun.
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Old 10-18-2018, 11:16 PM   #7
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Will be interesting to see what actual heal parses look like.

Maybe it's just some kind of cap on wards.

RIP shamans.
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Old 10-18-2018, 11:21 PM   #8
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It's not just wards. Other heals are vastly reduced too. It's just hard to see by how much since you have to be damaged to take a heal. I don't have definitive numbers for heals, because I can't tell what, exactly the 'max' a heal is in the library because hp totals are too low.
The first hit of my warden's Slyvan Bloom XI GM hit for 31m in the heroic instance (I swapped in/out of my crafting gear to have something TO heal). The max theoretical size of heals are bigger that that of wards.. but that doesn't help much when determining reduction.. because can't GET what the actual max is.
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Old 10-18-2018, 11:34 PM   #9
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Why bother to document spells, abilities, and stats when they are going to be mitigated with hidden mechanics?

Might as well just document every spell/ability/stat with: "Kinda does x effect except when mitigated by an algorithm you will never see."
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Old 10-18-2018, 11:35 PM   #10
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If it's a hard cap that's probably a game ender, can't imagine any priests sticking around in that environment. Game could possibly continue with merc healers.
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Old 10-19-2018, 12:01 AM   #11
Gninja

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No one has seen how its supposed to work yet due to beta server issues.The healing changes are a work in progress. Don't flip tables just yet Smile
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Old 10-19-2018, 01:05 AM   #12
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Most people who know me will tell you I am a fairly level headed person and tend to give the devs the benefit of the doubt on changes. But this does seem a little overly punitive to shaman. Not only will this new detrimental effect cause a flat reduction in the ability for everyone to heal, but then on top of that you are adding in considerable unwardable damage with the new bleedthrough changes.

It seems to me trying to balance both of these effects at the same time will be quite the task. I really hope that these finalized effects are in beta early enough for everyone to test. It seems that the combination of these two abilities will make it exceptionally difficult for shaman to heal content.

Now, this may be intended. Perhaps you are trying to require two healers to heal every group. I really hope that is not the direction the game is going...
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Old 10-19-2018, 01:40 AM   #13
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We want to help and make sure it works but it would really help to understand what the goals are of the changes and what the expected outcome should look like. I realize that there are going to be some that don't like it and you don't want to argue the strategy...but it will be really hard to help test if we don't know what good is supposed to look like.
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Old 10-19-2018, 02:04 AM   #14
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Is there any intent to have the debuff actually tell us what it is doing?
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Old 10-19-2018, 04:50 AM   #15
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Plrease give us numbers and what should be the expected behaviour, then we can test whether the expected behaviour is happening and whether such expected behaviour enables us to do the zones.

More details PLEEEEEEASE.Wink
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Old 10-19-2018, 11:42 AM   #16
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Why add heal limiters, potency/sda avoidance to mobs instead of just limiting stats you're giving to players.

It feels like a over complicated system, that is quite confusing.
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Old 10-19-2018, 06:26 PM   #17
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Any eta/word on when this will be fixed/adjusted/whatever so we know when to test it and/or when tests will give meaningful results?
This is kind of a 'big deal' for healers....

The lack of patch notes means we, as players, have no idea what changes go in from day to day....
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Old 10-19-2018, 06:58 PM   #18
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Could we get an explanation of how it is meant to work? It's kind of a big thing for people.
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Old 10-19-2018, 10:30 PM   #19
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Gninja, you been here for how long? you should KNOW its what happens when things arent explained, and put public. people go with the worst possible option.

Im sure that eventually you guys will take the time and explain the logic and hte mechanics behinds it, however till you do so you KNOW it will be "the sky is falling" ... and right fully so, as its all a guessing game.

I would advice using the time to actually explain the changes and why and how they affect game play, because EQ2 lives of its loyal population, and is as far as i know - correct me if im wrong - not a game with a hugely growing population, ergo logic would suggest to not "fud" (Fear, uncertainty and doubt) the population that is playing.

In all respect!
Me Smile the slack tank
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Old 10-20-2018, 10:03 AM   #20
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Unless they want tp mask sure the heroic zone are the same challenge and take the same time for a heroic group as as for a t4 raid equiped group. I really hope they do not add Hard caps for heal and dps to all zones.
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Old 10-20-2018, 10:41 AM   #21
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Chaotic Leech doesn't affect dps at all.. it is 100% a healing/healer debuff
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Old 10-20-2018, 03:32 PM   #22
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I offer some speculation:

Gninja is legitimately trying to balance out healing capabilities, and he is using the chaotic leach debuff to:

1. Short cut the balancing issues with a debuff instead of addressing the underlying class/game design problems.

2. Iterate to a solution, which is why he may not be interested in publicizing the debuff mechanics at this time.

However, players are already sniffing out the foreseeable problems with the band-aid/duct tape approach to design.

For example, what is the fun of playing a healer if your capabilities are going to be capped?

Or, why play a game where the mechanics puzzle can't be fully discerned?

This approach tweaking the game is nothing new, they've been approaching it this way for years, and given the current resources available for development, I fear folks are just going to have to deal with what is.
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Old 10-20-2018, 06:07 PM   #23
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Yeah.. I don't know if it has occurred to the devs that there are healers who are just as interested in the mechanics and numbers of healing (and I do NOT mean the heal parse) as dpsers. We're looking at different numbers.. but we're just as interested in maximizing our effectiveness... again, heal parse != effectiveness.
We want to be able to affect and improve our effectiveness through gear, AA and 'rotations' just as much as dpsers. And just like them, we need the information (like the mobs planar protection buff gives dpsers) to do our job most effectively and most efficiently.
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Old 10-21-2018, 06:44 PM   #24
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More data... and it proves this debuff is... well.. let's use the word convulted

IN LIBRARY
Umbral Barrier: 348,409,147
Ancestral Ward: 212,834,719
Oberon: 463,674,345

IN T1 HEROIC
Umbral Barrier: 144,794,017 (41% normal size)
Ancestral Ward: 55,574,322 (26% normal size)
Oberon: 73,373,182 (15% normal size)

You'll notice that the 'base' value of Oberon is over 100m bigger then Umbral Barrier's base.. but the debuffed value is over 71m LESS.

Devs... healers deserve to know what they're healers are going to be doing in heroic zones. It is, literally, our JOB.
I can accept this ginormous nerf to healers is a done deal. At least tell us WHAT it is doing so we have a clue what our arts are actually going to do. Tools that are mislabeled are almost as bad as no tools.. and right now, in heroic (and raid) zones, healer tools have 'incorrect' details on what they actually do.

Additional Note: The debuff is BIGGER in T2 zones.. so as the mobs hit harder, healers are also hobbled worse.
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Old 10-22-2018, 04:37 AM   #25
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If they were going to give us more information, they would have done it a few days ago. Like Kandy did with the bleedthrough changes.
It seems that it is still getting tweaked from Gninja's response. Personally if they had this thing the works for months, why wait until the 11th hour to tweak stuff.
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Old 10-22-2018, 06:39 AM   #26
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As it is, we can't even make informed decisions about what to cast when. We might as well just have all our heals a single macro and let rng decide which one actually goes off Frown
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Old 10-22-2018, 07:20 PM   #27
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Are you calling me out again? Cause it feels like you're calling me out again.
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Old 10-22-2018, 07:29 PM   #28
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If the shoe fits.... Tongue
In all seriousness though, players who care about numbers and stats care about them just as much on their healers as on their dps. I'm sure we can all imagine the up-roar that would happen if dps arts got the same treatment heals are getting in heroics/raids on beta right now Frown... and not just the nerf, but the totally hidden and non-uniform way that it is implimented.
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Old 10-22-2018, 07:32 PM   #29
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I can see it now....a hidden debuff and hard cap mechanic on damage.

Mayhem!
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Old 10-22-2018, 07:40 PM   #30
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They seem to have removed the hard cap... or at least raised it.. but we don't really know.
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