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Old 10-21-2018, 08:42 AM   #121
Priority

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If the group is alive, over healing does nothing to benefit anybody. Your pots not holding water on that one.
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Old 10-21-2018, 08:47 AM   #122
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Wow... making healers work harder than they need to... with it NEVER getting easier.. no matter what they do... is totally fine with you.
Some healers like to do more then just spam heal/cure all the time every time...
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Old 10-21-2018, 08:49 AM   #123
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Wow...crying about the sky falling because you actually have to heal now when others have been balancing that their entire time healing. Guess them being on equal footing ISNT fine with you.
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Old 10-21-2018, 09:25 AM   #124
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My issue is if i need to get my big heal back on my hotbar ... how am i going to do it ? Too much spells.
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Old 10-21-2018, 10:20 AM   #125
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Yes, some consolidation is needed. Twelve hotbars are not enough. I had to remove most of debuffs, croud control abilities and spell versions of my combat arts already.
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Old 10-21-2018, 04:46 PM   #126
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I'm curious why the need to try hardcap heals with Chaotic Leach, rather than just raise the HP pools of players. Shaman's have only been OP since Druids/Clerics heals are effectively capped by a players HP pool, while shaman's extend that. Make the HP pools bigger, and as long as the damage does not 1 shot, each healer becomes a lot more viable long term.

Stat inflation has caused this. Inflating HP pools to reflect the other stats would be suffice.
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Old 10-21-2018, 04:48 PM   #127
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This guy gets it. Be more like this guy!
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Old 10-21-2018, 05:09 PM   #128
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Do you realize you are addressing someone that has stuck with a warden through thick and thin and has advocated for druids for the last decade?
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Old 10-21-2018, 05:47 PM   #129
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I think you've hit on it here, as well as those saying HP totals are too low. Remember how all priests have these nice group buffs? Remember how some of them buff STA? Remember when that buff was substantial?

Maybe that is the proper solution--make those Stamina/HP buffs meaningful enough that the wards situation doesn't make such an impact. Then damage and wards can be adjusted to be significant, but not a binary proposition, and other healers become far more relevant. (This is not the same as wards! Wards expire--and some "group wards" have one pool protecting everybody in the group. A STA/HP buff would give each person those benefits for as long as they're under the effects of the buff.)
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Old 10-21-2018, 07:01 PM   #130
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More data... and it proves this debuff is... well.. let's use the word convulted

IN LIBRARY
Umbral Barrier: 348,409,147
Ancestral Ward: 212,834,719
Oberon: 463,674,345

IN T1 HEROIC
Umbral Barrier: 144,794,017 (41% normal size)
Ancestral Ward: 55,574,322 (26% normal size)
Oberon: 73,373,182 (15% normal size)

You'll notice that the 'base' value of Oberon is over 100m bigger then Umbral Barrier's base.. but the debuffed value is over 71m LESS.

Devs... healers deserve to know what they're healers are going to be doing in heroic zones. It is, literally, our JOB.
I can accept this ginormous nerf to healers is a done deal. At least tell us WHAT it is doing so we have a clue what our arts are actually going to do. Tools that are mislabeled are almost as bad as no tools.. and right now, in heroic (and raid) zones, healer tools have 'incorrect' details on what they actually do.

Additional Note: The debuff is BIGGER in T2 zones.. so as the mobs hit harder, healers are also hobbled worse.
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Old 10-21-2018, 09:29 PM   #131
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makes me wanna stop healing

does it also affect the % heals/wards of fighters ?
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Old 10-22-2018, 12:49 AM   #132
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Note: HoTs and direct heals are reduced as well, but it's much harder to get an accurate measure since heals only show how much they heal for, not the size of the heal cast.
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Old 10-22-2018, 02:41 AM   #133
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It was really hard to know what my heals were going to do. I dropped HoTs that barely did anything and other spells that were still complete heals.
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Old 10-22-2018, 03:45 AM   #134
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It's almost like giving everyone 100k potency, and not scaling HP to go up with this huge potency pool, and not nerfing wards wasn't planned?
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Old 10-22-2018, 04:09 AM   #135
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Just fix channeler pet, screw the rest.
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Old 10-22-2018, 04:58 AM   #136
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I haven't noticed any problems with the channeler pet in heroics. Solos were terrible. The pet kept dying. TBH I may not have had the Jann buff on before, I didn't notice the problem today.
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Old 10-22-2018, 06:32 AM   #137
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This. We have no idea what any heal is going to do.. .
Heals don't even keep strength relative to each other.

How are we supposed to keep our groups alive when we have no idea what are arts are going to do?

We don't even have any way of telling if things change...
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Old 10-22-2018, 11:23 PM   #138
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I do not really understand what you are upset about.
The numbers do not matter at the end, but the important thing is that you can heal / ward your group and the raid.

If people survive then everything is fine, then it does not matter if your wards and heals are smaller through the zone debuff or if it's a little bleedth. gives.

And if it does not fit, as it is, it will be adjusted, because that's exactly what the beta is for.

Do not cling to numbers like that, testing them in-progress, and let the developers adjust them accordingly.

What I've seen so far in heroic tests with Chrol, there were no major healing issues, and if the damage was really too high somewhere, it was adjusted.

And just like that, this will happen with all the skills of the healers.

Not bad for me, but at the moment there is really a lot of black painting that I have not seen or understood until now.
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Old 10-22-2018, 11:28 PM   #139
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Ingerimm, most people arrange their spells, be they attacks, heals, taunts, whatever in order from most efficient to least efficient. If the numbers fluctuate in contradictory ways in different zones, you can't get a good cast order.

Also, if you are healing, you HAVE to know which one button to hit to provide your biggest emergency heal RIGHT NOW. And that needs to ALWAYS be the same spell so you can find it pronto before everyone dies.
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Old 10-22-2018, 11:43 PM   #140
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Pretty sure nothing would change healer wise period, you have like 2-3 buttons to press consistently regardless of how much they do.

Shamans you always press single/group ward when up on cooldown then oberon when you need it due to the nature of its recast. Torpor on cooldown. Deathward on cooldown.

Clerics you just cast single/group reactive and chilling invig/focused when you need it.

Druids you just pretend your a healer and tehehehe around dpsing and then throw up a group HoT when you need it.

Channeler.. Lol?

If you think that chaotic leech changes the fact how any of these classes play, I'm not sure what to say.
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Old 10-22-2018, 11:53 PM   #141
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U sir deserve a trophy.
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Old 10-23-2018, 12:03 AM   #142
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Why should healers not care about the numbers?
Why is it unreasonable for healers to expect to know BEFORE they cast a heal, what it is going to do?
Why is it unreasonable for healers to expect to even know which of their heals are bigger then other healers?
If somebody is down to 1/2 health, I want to know which of my heals is best to cast rather then randomly spamming a heal. But, right now, since the numbers on the tooltips have nothing, at all, to do with how they work in zones.. not even which heal is larger than others, is the same inside the zones as outside.

Good healers want to be as effecient with their heals as dps want to be with their arts.
They don't just spam all heals all the time, not bothering their little heads with buffs, debuffs, dps, and all the other things good little healers leave to their betters..

While I'm not happy with the heal nerf in the zones (60-85% depending on the art and class from my calculations) am I resigned to the fact that the devs have decided that this is easier than actually fixing the ration between heal potential and heatlh pools.
I DO, however, expect to be given enough information to know what my arts are going to do before I cast the art.
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Old 10-23-2018, 12:12 AM   #143
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It's reasonable because the numbers change nothing about the mechanics of the classes, you still prioritize the same heals based on reuse/efficiency.

I'm not magically gonna decide that now Rejuvenation on mystic isn't better than Ritual healing because Rejuv has a different heal in the end (it's > obviously because casting time) Every heal is a 100% heal in terms of direct heals.

I'm not now gonna decide to cast rejuvenation over ancestral ward right? I'm not gonna cast transcendence over umbral warding right?

100k Potency, or 1k Potency. The basic's to healing haven't changed in this game in a very long time.

In terms of "with buffs, debuffs, dps, and all the other things good little healers leave to their betters.."

You just showed us healers are more than healers, great argument, so this change means even less.
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Old 10-23-2018, 12:19 AM   #144
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In the Chaos Descending heroic zones, heals are NOT full heals.. that's why we need the numbers.
As far as numbers? Actually, it does matter. For instance outside the CD heroic zones, Oberon is bigger then Umbral Barrier. Inside the CD heroic zones, Oberon is only 1/2 the size of Umbral Barrier.
If the debuff was a uniform 'all heals/wards/etc' are only % percent as effective, we could deduce the numbers and understand what is happeing.
Unfortunately that is NOT what is happening. Different healer classes are debuffed more/less than other healers. Different arts belong to the same healer class are debuffed more the other arts.
Right now the ONLY thing healers know if what 'kind' of heal a particular art is... we don't have any real clue what it is actually GOING to do until fecal matter is hitting the rotary impeller unit.
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Old 10-23-2018, 12:27 AM   #145
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Once again,

You will never prioritize oberon over umbral barrier because of the reuse associated with these spells. You're still gonna cast oberon during tank temp weak spots/gaps in their rotations. This is why how much they hit for isn't relevant.

I'm not gonna cast Tsunami before tag team on a brawler because it lasts longer am I? No, i'm gonna cast the faster reuse one because it means overall I have more uptime overall on temps.

If heals aren't full heals then press ritual healing over rejuvenation, seems pretty obvious to me.
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Old 10-23-2018, 12:49 AM   #146
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Wow... the idea that heal casting order is 100% based on recast...
I guess dps casting orders are the same too. We should make the numbers they do in heroics completely different and random copmpared to what they say too. It won't change how the dpsers push their buttons either.... *shakes head*
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Old 10-23-2018, 01:00 AM   #147
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I never said it was based on recast, I said it was based on efficiency. I obviously get more out of casting umbral/ancestral before oberon.

Are you disagreeing with this?
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Old 10-23-2018, 01:07 AM   #148
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It seems to me, that the point that is being lost here (and the one that Mermut and others are trying to make) is that the random nature of this hidden mechanic makes healing NOT FUN for a healer.

If there were randomized nerfing effects to damage, all hell would break loose. Why? Because players like to optimize. Well, good healers like to optimize also, and in fact, if they are good and efficient, they do this so they can add some dps and utility themselves.

I'm more than a little disbelieving that there seems to be a train of thought coagulating here that healers are something you put your pocket to keep everyone else alive, and they should be happy with that.

If that's the attitude, well, get out your mercs, cause you're gonna find it hard to find decent healers. They'll go play something that is fun for them to play.
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Old 10-23-2018, 01:08 AM   #149
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You're saying that knowing what the numbers on our heals/ward/reactives are is COMPLETELY irrelevant to which ones a healer is going to cast at any given time....
Or at least you seem to be implying that when you keep insisting that healers have absolutely no need to know the expected amount of heal any particular art is going to put out.

Sure, if all a particular healer does is cast heals, all heal all the time, whenever one is off reuse no matter if anybody needs a heals or not.. THAT kind of healer doesn't need to know the numbers. But dpsers that just punch whatever buttons are on cooldown don't need to know the numbers on their arts eithers.
IT IS NO DIFFERENT to a player that wants to maximize their effectiveness.

I do not understand why so many people that would be absolutely horrified if their arts has no bearing what the art does tell healers not to worry about it.
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Old 10-23-2018, 01:13 AM   #150
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Yes its irrelevant because of the way healers are designed.

Oberon could hit for 100billion, and I still wouldn't cast it before Umbral barrier/ancestral ward because, wait for it, it's only up for a short duration, and umbral/ancestral are doing the bulk of the healing for 90% of the fight.

Not to mention your wards stack, you can literally have every single ward up at the same time, therefore what they all hit for changes nothing.

I'm still gonna cast ancestral before Oberon in every situation due to its recast unless my tank spikes super hard, but either way, it's still the same results as before Chaotic Leech.

You can't even compare dps to heals what so ever in this game for a myriad of reason I won't digress into because no matter what point I prove/bring up, you will just dismiss it and continue your flippant stance.
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