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Old 10-25-2015, 02:38 PM   #31
Treson

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What would you suggest? And how would it be too OP? Why would anyone spec for Requiem after this hardcap? Do you think the reforge conversion for this stat is acceptable?

I'm not having a go at you its just you didn't offer anything constructive while I offered several points that the devs could address to fix the issue.

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Old 10-25-2015, 05:29 PM   #32
Trakanom

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Spec out of weapon of the mind/Vitality to Strength in prestige2.
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Old 10-25-2015, 05:38 PM   #33
Raenius

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True - fixed it now - cheers!
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Old 10-26-2015, 12:35 AM   #34
Mermut

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Pretty much every temp buff that awards crit bonus or weapon damage bonus is now dead or on life support. This reduces the utility/buffage of a large number of classes and it will only get worse as time goes on unless the cap is changed and/or the buffs are changed.
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Old 10-26-2015, 12:04 PM   #35
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You do realize that there are at least 2x more classes to deal with than there are EQ2 devs working at DB..?
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Old 10-26-2015, 12:29 PM   #36
Jakaan

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Because this is such a hot item, it would be nice if a Dev could at least chime in on the discussion and provide some detail on the rationale behind these changes. Instead though, we are left with an information gap which causes us to theorize for ourselves and become more frustrated.

Dev's: Let us know the rationale so that we can help you test it in beta. The more information we have, the better the feedback we can provide.
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Old 10-26-2015, 02:20 PM   #37
Nkito

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I know the furthering of speculation in this thread doesn't help but these caps do seem to address the issues that have been mentioned. FC and passive dmg by way of autoattack have been complained about for a long time. With such a wide range of builds available to each class this simplification of stats will make future balancing of dps tiers easier. When most caps are known it can be influenced by potency and ability dmg modifiers alone.

The thing is, these dps tiers will still be pursued by devs so in the end the sorc or pred that was outdps'ing your "t2" (by design) most likely will continue to do so. How they accomplish their parses will shift toward ability dmg but the design goal says they will accomplish it nonetheless. Only difference now is you will have less flexibility in finding a way to overcome their inherit dps advantage.
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Old 10-26-2015, 03:15 PM   #38
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I understand the need to keep stats from making some classes too powerful but stat inflation started with ToV and continued with AoM. My problem with the hard cap of CB from the warlock perspective is that the class has effectively been capped in AoM and will not benefit in ToT and beyond. Yes, there are other stats that "might" make a bit of an increase in DPS for the class but for all intents and purposes the Warlock class is now static for growth. If there was going to be a CB hard cap, make it a cap that will be reached by the end of ToT or beyond. Many raiding warlocks are already at the CB cap in AoM.

I just do not understand the reasoning behind this hard cap since we are already there.
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Old 10-27-2015, 02:53 AM   #39
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You guys just keep repeating the same mistakes for all the huge effort you guys have done with a great server transfers to the new server you follow it up with what most people will see as unpopular nerf to the DPS in general.


This path is a failed path that lost so many players over and over again due to changes from the nerfing of the avatar gear to and their procs and how procs work with crits to all the other changes that really upset so many players that just walked away never commenting.

work out a better way to change how scouts dps via Ca's and not just auto attack.
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Old 10-27-2015, 03:09 AM   #40
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In beta it seems that scouts dps has gone way up where as the t1 mage dps has gone down and cannot compete.
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Old 10-27-2015, 03:39 AM   #41
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My best guess without playing beta;

End Game Items Were Too Powerful
At the high end, we're shifting from an exponential curve to a linear one, i.e. (CB+x)(Pot+X)->(CB)(Pot+X). This translates to high end encounters being more skill, rather than item, based as player HPS/DPS is not-as-drastically shifted by a few pieces of gear.

Early-Mid Game Items Were Just Right
The CB cap allows an exponential function early-mid game, which translates to a single item drastically increasing a player's power. This allows players to "get excited" about individual pieces before the end game, where players tend to get upset about itemization gates (i.e. can't beat this encounter because we don't have the items). This is supported by many previously "raid type" effects, e.g. aspect of granite, dropping off overland named encounters - they're attempting to lower the barrier-of-entry.

Botting Raids Was too Common
Bots tend to suck at coordinating bursts. Hitting "AFK damage" by targeting crit/WD bonus will make it more difficult to automate encounters by artificially increasing encounter duration through targeted itemization.

Bottom Line
These changes suggest that early/mid game players will show improvement very quickly and feel a sense of "progression". They will get excited about numbers increasing, feel that they are making progress, and in general feel great about playing the game. Developers will have greater design space for end game players as a linear curve indicates encounters are not as easily trivialized by itemization, and won't have to rely as much on script-based failure conditions.
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Old 10-27-2015, 05:33 AM   #42
Nkito

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That sounds accurate, I just don't understand introducing caps we're already hitting in aom gear and simultaneously rolling out xpac items with significantly more cb than we're already wearing. Assuming raid drops will maintain a similar superiority over solo drops. But if things are being condensed like you suggest and raid drops are only slightly higher dps i guess we'll see a time where raid gear alone won't necessarily put you at the top.

I like the sound of that at first, but also know I will not chase insignificant upgrades.
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Old 10-27-2015, 07:54 AM   #43
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Capping CB at 3k, just makes CB worthless in the long run, We will all reach the cap eventually, gear / stat inflation will therefore render one pathway obsolete for character improvement.

I understand why you are doing this, auto attack and warlocks have benefited hugely from an unlimited CB.

However this is the nuclear option. In trying to fix the CB issue, you are doing a lot of collateral damage. Just look at the prestige choices that were added in this xpac, most of them are now or will be obsolete. Temps of every kind, AA's all need to be adjusted to reflect this new barrier to advancement.

The point i am trying to make is that, we have so very few pathways for improvement, and now you are taking away more then just cb, this change effects many prestige and AA's choices.

Cap it, make it redundant, and eventually get rid of it, This has the stench of the stats consolidation you did a few years ago, even kander recognizes it was a mistake to merge the 5 old stats into two.

I'm scared, you don't see it, and you don't seam to learn from past mistakes, I'm afraid you'll do more damage then good whit this change,
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Old 10-27-2015, 08:35 PM   #44
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This isn't necessarily a bad thing in the long run the way I see it, but only if they do pay attention to detail in regards to individual Class AA's and CA's, i.e. It does allow them to eventually do away with CB entirely and buff / play with individual AA's and CA's using less modifiers - it simplifies the math a little, allowing them to more easily buff individual classes.

I like that idea.

The game as we know it basically stays the same, but pressing buttons means a lot more. It will / could bring more class definition.

I can see this coming into play when buffing bards, or utility classes especially. The timing of CA's could become a lot more important for everyone.

And like Koko said in smarty-pants language; it leads to big fun math-y numbers that are exciting to all play styles.

I think it could be really fun, if done correctly. I mean, here's hoping, right?

Dreadtalon, a Freetard of Freeport
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Old 10-29-2015, 01:03 PM   #45
Esakker

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Silly question, all the caps being talked about where do I find them would like to better understand the thread.
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Old 11-01-2015, 06:06 AM   #46
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The crit bonus conversion hurts every class with temp crit bonus buffs, prestige conversions that go to or from crit bonus.. etc.. It makes a huge number of class abilities obsolete. If you're set on keeping the cap, a bunch of classes' abilities, prestige abilities, AA, etc need to be reworked.
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Old 11-02-2015, 10:55 AM   #47
Amaitae

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so whatever the reasons might be, in the case they are not going away I suggest that all excess cb will be added 1:1 to potency to compensate those classes which would be penalized by the new cap.
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Old 11-02-2015, 08:01 PM   #48
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Not sure if it was already mentioned, but putting these caps will make some abilities completely obsolete as well.

Having to choose between gearing up your character up to the cap will make abilities like Predator's Final Trick or Focused Casting completely useless, because you will no longer get the benefit of those abilities for CB. But if you choose to not cap your CB to 3,000, then you're essentially nerfing yourself because you're lowering the dps capabilities of ALL your abilities and not just the ones you use for your burst when FC or PFT are used.

I really really hope this CB/WDB cap gets reconsidered, for the sake of this game's longevity.
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Old 11-13-2015, 05:15 AM   #49
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This WDB cap is just too much. Our bards are parsing terribly now. 2/3, if that, of our chanters. The cap should be removed from all bards at least, and just have different diminishing returns after some point for other classes. If not removing the WDB cap from our bards, then boost their CA damage even more to compensate.
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Old 11-13-2015, 05:22 AM   #50
Doomey

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+1
really not having any fun at all anymore on the dirge. the wdb changes were a terrible attempt at balancing that ended up pushing t1 scouts ahead of everyone and bards / melee priests are left to reforge / re gear for more potency. Yay. potency. my spells now do 7 more damage. Just a sandbag buffbot now.
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Old 11-13-2015, 07:01 AM   #51
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++1
Melee priests & bards, my two favorite things, are saaaaad pandas. Seems like... with complete control of itemization... it would be possible to reign in certain stats without throwing in hard caps that wreak havoc on class balance, especially for classes that provide group or self temp buffs for those stats... as so many others have already said.
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Old 11-13-2015, 03:22 PM   #52
Anfis

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please remove the WDB cap from bards and preists....my bard is sad! it takes 1 temp or my jewlery procing and im at cap in seconds...
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Old 11-13-2015, 03:28 PM   #53
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Bump. Please remove the WDB cap from Bards and Priests
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Old 11-13-2015, 04:35 PM   #54
Foretold

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Remove the caps altogether and figure out a better way to accomplish what you're trying to achieve.
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Old 11-13-2015, 04:52 PM   #55
Nkito

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Keep caps consistent across all classes, whether they are removed completely, left in place, or softened.

They're trying to get a grip on class balance, and while not ideal I can understand their simpler approach by focusing on ca dmg tweaking. It's not the most fun way but if i had to choose between class imbalances xpac after xpac due to the number of variables, or this, I would choose this.

I don't see how wdb would make a class more fun, as long as the loss of dps from this cap is compensated for in some way.

I do still very much dislike hard caps though, especially cb.
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Old 11-13-2015, 05:04 PM   #56
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+1 Either remove WDB caps for melee priests/bards or give us class/archetype weapons with huge base damage to compensate.
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Old 11-13-2015, 05:16 PM   #57
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Agree hard caps are bad overall, but when ppl post over and over asking for their auto afk damage restored (be it wdb or harder hit weaps) it just make the change look even more needed. If ppl dont even want CAs/spells raised up but would just want to return to what they've done last couple years. Its just lazy to request removing caps based on that.

They could've done it better tho, but whether you like it or not. Things that lower your auto damage are coming to stay im afraid. I'd honestly be happy we get to keep even that much, cause nothing would've stopped them removing wdb totally or just lowering the class base ratios so much that 800wdb would account for half damage on live currently.

Sure its not our fault we have tools to do what we do atm, esp wdb and flurry went up and up with ToV and AoM really made it silly (no matter how you look, it prolly wasnt a good call on their end to give it out as abundant)
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Old 11-13-2015, 05:49 PM   #58
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What I really want for priests is for our CAs to be boosted and our AAs to be reworked. But that's not realistic for a game this old with limited developers. So I'll settle for WDB cap removal or harder hitting weapons to counteract the indirect nerfs to melee priests.
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Old 11-13-2015, 05:59 PM   #59
Yards

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The stat caps should be removed and the dev's should just wake up and do their jobs with putting the appropriate stats on gear. There is always a stat cap that is based on what stats are available on the gear we are able to obtain through dev's itemization. This attempt to over simplify the stats by putting caps on key stats tells me they are incapable of appropriate itemization and just decided to put a cap on things to make their job easier. In the end these caps will just ruin the game but that may be their intention as they are probably just bored with eq2.
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Old 11-13-2015, 06:01 PM   #60
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If healer damage directly determines how good their heals/wards are... then yes, those healers need their damage output looked at/balanced... otherwise I'd rather them focus on bringing other healers in line for raid healing so guilds aren't focusing on just using 4 shamans.

Inq is hurting the most, and fixing dmg output won't help them get a raid spot.
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