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Old 10-21-2015, 01:51 AM   #1
Daray

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So, since this pretty much affects every class (some to a higher degree than others), I might as well make this into its own thread.

I'm not exactly sure what the goal of imposing hard caps on CB and WDB is, so if I am missing something feel free to enlighten me. The chosen cap numbers do also seem to be a bit arbitrary, and hard capping key multipliers does seem to limit future growth/itemisation potential (given some players are already exceeding these caps on Live in raid combat settings).

Off the top of my head, I can only guess that these specific changes might be directed at 2 things (even though the implications will affect every class)...
  • Autoattack vs CA damage balance: Given the boost that CAs have seen, my guess is that this is probably the primary reason behind the caps.
  • Focused Casting: has drawn a lot of attention elsewhere recently and was specifically targeted in the patch notes.
Now my opinion - There are more elegant solutions that could have been used in place of hard caps. Players will naturally gravitate towards an optimal setup as a matter of course, and those goal posts can be moved and influenced through the design side.
  • Ability and autoattack balance can be shifted by increasing base values on CAs, whilst also reducing base damage values on weapons.
  • Focused casting, assuming this was a factor, can be redressed by adjusting the values on the ability itself.
  • You can control the availability and growth of certain attributes from the itemisation side too, without needing to resort to hard capping multipliers.
  • Probably other stuff I haven't thought of or thought through (like diminishing returns on wdb).
Anywho, tl;dr, forcing hard caps in this manner (and on these attributes) probably isn't going to garner a whole lot of support. But time will tell.
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Old 10-21-2015, 03:50 AM   #2
Yards

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I still can't wrap my head around these caps. I don't see any reason to put a hard cap on these stats when they are completely controlled by the gear that is introduced into the game. The whole premise of this stat cap seems like the easy/lazy way out and also the most detrimental to all classes.
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Old 10-21-2015, 04:36 AM   #3
Bloodguts

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Although i'm on the fence about these hard caps.

I will give the benefit of the doubt to Caith that he knows what he's doing and will wait until i can get my geared out Ranger over to Beta and test this new system properly then.

But what i do know is that eventually everyone will reach that cap if not by this expansion then by the next one and then what will happen? raise the cap? Then what's the point of having a cap in the first place? to control stat choice on a universal level and removing the individual choice? This is the only part that i'm concerned with.

If this system works for this current expansion and helps Scout VS. Mage dps be balanced, then i'm all for this. I was hoping some new AAs would be implemented to bridge the gap closer between scout/mage dps, but this new Deity system just homogenizes everything and it doesn't really do anything to the current system in place for current Altar of Malice balancing.
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Old 10-21-2015, 04:51 AM   #4
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Caps should either be removed - or getting beyond the cap gives bonuses,

e.g.
over crit bonus perhaps gives bonus to crit chance / potency?
over weapon damage bonus base combat art boost?

even the most perfect tweaking you will end up with temps/procs going over the cap - you might as well offer a small bonus to casting them beyond the standard
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Old 10-21-2015, 05:02 AM   #5
Neiloch

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My first thought was prestige conversions for CB/WDB are about to eat it. I Wouldn't be surprised if full time right side is in my rangers future.

I'd have to say using itemization would have been a better way to go. I would hope they are going to show up on items less anyway, given the caps. If that's the case i would think we could avoid the caps entirely so to make sure any 'growth' via class mechanics is not wasted for stats that were previously built/used based on having no curve or cap.

My only other thought is this is another 'step' into essentially getting rid of CB and WDB and moving players towards more ability damage instead of doing it all at once.
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Old 10-21-2015, 05:33 AM   #6
Bloodguts

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It should be TOP PRIORITY for the developers to give the players the freedom to choose what they want to gear as, even if it's a bad choice like gearing for Multi Attack Tongue

With that stated, class balancing is the biggest culprit of why this is happening in the first place. Class balancing, and all the people that whined about passives vs. actives (myself included).

There are people who still enjoy playing a passive playstyle, and that is fine. But it should not trump playing actively, that's for sure, but the choice to play whichever way a player wants and how it benefits their class the most should still be in game.

I'll happily test this system on the 26 when we're actively testing content with our geared toons from live and give proper feedback then.
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Old 10-21-2015, 06:20 AM   #7
Thand

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my heroic Ranger and dirge can on live already way exceed the new wdb cap using temp and clicks. Well atleast we know how they are going to nerf melee Smile with the wdb and CB caps
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Old 10-21-2015, 01:53 PM   #8
Nkito

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Agree with all of the opinions stated here, that this is probably to simplify the mage vs scout disparities, that capping autoattack while raid lag is still a hindrance will frustrate, that balance through itemization is hopefully the long term goal here and I will wait to see this new itemization before getting too concerned.

But my initial reaction is not so much frustration as just disheartening. Over the years we've seen numerous stat consolidations and even in aom I found myself fully geared and adorned, sitting at the reforger at all the soft and/or hardcaps realizing the only freedom i had left in the pursuit of optimization was cb/pot/wdb.

Now there seems to be no choices left. On first appearances this shapes up to be all dps classes spec'ing the same, regardless if mage or scout we all sit at the caps and try to max potency? CB and wdb really need to at least have overcap conversions or diminishing returns to keep any amount of interest in how you build your character.
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Old 10-21-2015, 04:48 PM   #9
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Please don't add more stat caps. It's already kind of absurd that in AoM as a dirge I can hard or soft cap almost every stat available and now you just added 2 more to the list for ToT. I'll also wait to see itemization but it's looking like driving up potency will be the only meaningful way to grow character which as a dirge is pretty disheartening and sounds boring for all.
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Old 10-21-2015, 09:30 PM   #10
Lare

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Do they realise they are breaking some classes while other classes are just going to get better and take advantage of the gear increases.

This is a blanket lazy try to fix all the issues rather than deal with the issues of each class. Its going to do more damage that any good.

Don't they understand how this is going to unbalance so many classes its not funny?
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Old 10-21-2015, 10:12 PM   #11
Dreadtalon

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Quote underlined for emphasis,

I agree, and think it's obvious that they are doing just that by the gear they've recently introduced (see RC Belt, Fabled Cloak) into the game. We'll see more powerful and differing versions of: "Increases final ability damage by xxx %". This coupled with the high potency pools we already have experienced - and are now seeing in Beta - along with across the board CA increases will make Ability Modifier the new king reforge stat for all classes.

Dreadtalon, a Freetard of Freeport
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Old 10-22-2015, 02:16 AM   #12
Mark John

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It is not clear how gear and item management can proceed given these caps. For example if players have Hand of Thule or Salvo charm, etc., the value of these are all minimized if you are raiding at or above the stat caps. Once the stat cap parade continues, what is the purpose of any new gear if all your stats are capped?.

The only items that will then have value will be those that independently proc damage (or some other action of raid-level value) and do not add CB. Most WDB proc gear will become useless and need to be replaced by ... almost anything?

Is new gear going to have Potency only or is that just going to be a 'wasted stat' for raiders at the cap?

So if I get a new scout chest for example:

Capped DPS: so don't waste my time giving me more DPS
Capped Haste and Flurry: So don't give me any more Attack Speed.
Capped Multi: same.
Capped CB/WDB.

So are you telling me the only stats I should bother to look at are AGI, STA, POT, maybe Mit??
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Old 10-22-2015, 08:54 AM   #13
Bloodguts

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Instead of stat hard caps, they should just lower the rate at which we upgrade our stats from gear, keep allowing stat choice individualization per class/player, and implement Final Ability Bonus to all gear as a means to increase the numbers on our parses.

Homogenizing every class via hard caps just makes this game bland and boring when everyone will eventually wear the same stat allocation on each of their characters. If that happens, then there's no point in making a bajillion pieces of armor/jewelry for each armor type.

Finding what works best for your character and your personal play style is what makes this game fun for some people, and even more for those who enjoy min/maxing. If a passive playstyle is more to your liking, that should definitely remain a choice, but it should not trump over those who choose to play an Active playstyle with their characters.
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Old 10-22-2015, 08:58 AM   #14
Foretold

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Why cap CB and not POT as well? Is your goal to stagnate the warlocks while letting the rest of the mages' damage continue to scale with their gear upgrades?

I know there are issues with scout autoattacks, but capping CB is not the answer. With the FC "changes" you're basically serving a double whammy to warlocks.

Cap = bad.
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Old 10-22-2015, 03:59 PM   #15
Daeth

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I think it is definitely time to do a stat squish. Reforging one stat to another was great as a novelty when stats were lower, but now it is just ridiculous. There should be more focus on interesting procs etc than balancing a spread sheet of hard caps.
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Old 10-22-2015, 04:21 PM   #16
Bloodguts

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Agreed.

By this logic, we will eventually get into the billions of damage per hit. Who knows how long the system will be able to compute those numbers per millisecond before the servers explode!!!
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Old 10-22-2015, 04:30 PM   #17
Daivid

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I won't pretend to understand all the math behind these caps and how it will affect melee classes but I would be curious to know if this means Fighter dps will go down or mostly remain unchanged?
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Old 10-22-2015, 04:37 PM   #18
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given most fighters can't reach the caps (WDB and Mitigation are on mutually exclusive pieces) I expect a slight relative increase (from 15% bonus to damage abilities) but nothgin to shout home about.
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Old 10-22-2015, 05:16 PM   #19
Genghes

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The 15% bump might increase a fighters parse by 5% and that might be to generous. These changes and hard caps shouldn't affect fighter dps in a negative way
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Old 10-23-2015, 01:13 AM   #20
Enoa

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Hard to have an opinion without seeing itemization nor being able to /beta copy yet. The few broken quests i did with solo gear with a beta buffed noob it was hard to see more than a few pieces of introduction gear.

I was expecting to see expansion of the legendary/fabled/mythical crit system introduced in AOM and suggested by items that gave a "xx increase in beneficial spell legendary, fabled, mythical critical hit".

I would like to see this system expanded and improved. Since the term critical hit really has lost all meaning prior to this new system. If this system was to be expanded the 'old' critical system with CB etc would have to cap realistically i would think. In the absence of a meaningful % chance to crit CB is really just potency+ for most calculations.
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Old 10-23-2015, 11:21 AM   #21
Errrorr

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I can understand the idea here, but it also needs to be paired equally with itemisation favouring Potency over CB, so people aren't reaching CB caps.

WDB has been pretty out of line in AoM, let's face it, it needed something changing. However that also needed to be paired with changes to classes who relied on WDB.

The LiveStream said there was going to be changes to Bards to make them more utility based, and If those are still due, it's too early to call the WDB cap an issue yet.

As for the CB Cap, If we start seeing itemisation give less favour to CB procs/effects, we shouldn't see much issue with the cap. I do think though that it should be that if you go over 3000CB, every 1% over gets converted to 0.5% Potency though.

It is too early in Beta to start throwing toys out the pram on changes (See Warlocks), so stick to constructive feedback and it might work out.
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Old 10-23-2015, 02:09 PM   #22
Nkito

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wdb was out hand, but sometimes so is lag, it was a good stat to mitigate this. itemization is, and hopefully always will be, the determining factor and you're exactly right these are all moot points if we are not able to efficiently reach these caps anyway.

But i do think a soft cap, or over cap conversion, would work 10x better (at least on cb). As others have said players will always choose to optimize their build against soft caps but their efforts won't be completely wasted should they temporarily exceed these caps. It would still achieve the goals of shifting ca/autoattack ratio and allow more time for itemization and other changes to be implemented as they see fit.
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Old 10-23-2015, 04:24 PM   #23
Trakanom

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I agree. I think that hardcapping such a volatile stat would just be a huge pain to calculate what, if any, to reforge out of. It should dynamically convert unless almost all large cb temps are going away.
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Old 10-24-2015, 12:01 AM   #24
Lare

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I think this is just a lazy solution rather than deal with each class individually.
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Old 10-24-2015, 09:39 AM   #25
Treson

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As a dirge I would be disappointed to see the WDB hardcap at 300. In group/raid I sit at ~320-330WDB and with my clickies and other effects hit around 500-600 while charging for my VC. I'm not the best equipped dirge out there and can imagine that many have far more WDB than me that is going to go even further to waste.

I see DBG saying that they want Bards to be more utility based and thats why we got the crappy end of the stick when it came to the scout re-balance, Our CA's do the least amount of damage than any other scout and now our way to mitigate this is being capped.

I would convert excess WDB/SWD into Final Ability Damage at a rate of 2:1. This would give all classes with high WDB/SWD a reason to click more buttons, which is what I thought the whole point of the scout revamp was in the first place. Not to actively reduce the dps done by weapons and VC.

What is the point of this change?

How about actually making Bards buffs give real utility rather than the pathetic passive buffs we have at the moment. I have 2 hotbars of buffs which rarely get changed unless I tank something. The amounts on these buffs have scaled poorly every level cap increase. Give us more active temps to cast for the group to augment healing or defence other than the useless AA choices that so few of us take due to their crapness.

Half my dps for all I care just give me something to do!
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Old 10-24-2015, 11:50 PM   #26
Anunnaki

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That would be so incredibly OP its not even funny.
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Old 10-25-2015, 02:08 AM   #27
Foretold

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So what happens if I get to 3000 CB? Can I just take focused casting off my hotbar? This is a legitimate question... because I would have to limit my CB to 2000 so that focused casting would actually work at the full 50%... Or I can get CB to 3000 and have the same effect without having to use focused casting...

Capping CB nullifies pert near the whole spell. I still get a 25% potency increase... and that is all.

I'm presuming of course that I can get to this cap... I"m sitting at 1200 CB right now in 4 pieces of quest gear with no temps or procs running, so I think, yeah, hitting 3000 is doable.

I can handle the focused casting changes. I can't handle this cap. The two can't coexist.
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Old 10-25-2015, 02:10 AM   #28
Foretold

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... double post
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Old 10-25-2015, 08:50 AM   #29
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I expect that my troub will be rewarded with A LOT more utility in light of these caps. As it stands now, my DPS is far more valuable to a raid than my utility. This is a big blow to bards, imo.
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Old 10-25-2015, 02:38 PM   #30
Treson

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What would you suggest? And how would it be too OP? Why would anyone spec for Requiem after this hardcap? Do you think the reforge conversion for this stat is acceptable?

I'm not having a go at you its just you didn't offer anything constructive while I offered several points that the devs could address to fix the issue.

Regards
Treson
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