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Old 10-14-2014, 02:00 PM   #1
Shiloh

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There is much talk about the different tank classes, but not many words about Bruisers. I dare to say that its the least played (and used) class in the game atm, along with beastlords. Monks, on the other hand, are by many considered to be the most versatile durable tank in EQ2, and it is the sisterclass of the bruisers! I have never played a monk, but Ive played a bruiser for loads of years, and I've been waiting for some help for the class in years =) How can there be so big differences in useability when it comes to these two classes, and is that something thats looked into with this coming expansion?
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Old 10-15-2014, 12:21 AM   #2
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The reasons Monks trump Bruiser is purely there ability to cycle Temps for a longer duration then we can. I absolutely stunk at playing a Monk and went back Bruiser. I feel more comfortable with my temps and such. But on paper, a Monks ability to cycle temps and live through pretty much anything out does a Bruiser hands down.

For a break down :
Monk:
Tsunami - 22 Sec Duration - 90 Sec Recast
Bob and Weave - 13 Sec Duration - 74 Sec Recast
Tag Team - 8 Sec Duration - 60 Sec Recast

43 Seconds of 100% Avoidance

Bruiser:
Unyielding Resolve - 10 Sec Duration - 161 Sec Recast
Impenetrable Will - 13 Sec Duration - 74 Sec Recast
Tag Team - 8 Sec Duration - 60 Sec Recast

31 Second of 100% Avoidance

Now, a lot of people wouldn't consider a 10 second difference that huge compared, however, look at the recast values of our " non-aa avoidance buffs " 90 secs vs 161 secs. Monks get twice the duration with half the recast time. The rest are the same. Now, for other temp buffs, stone skins.

Monk:
Perfect Counter - 1 trigger stone skin " with stone skin reaction " all damage - 15 Sec Duration - 30 Sec Recast
Inner Focus - 3 trigger stone skin " with stone skin reaction " Physical Only - 15 Sec Duration - 60 Sec Recast

Bruiser:
Stone Deaf - 3 Trigger stone skin " with-OUT stone skin reaction " Magical Only - 30 Sec Duration - 60 Sec Recast
Inner Focus - 3 trigger stone skin " with stone skin reaction " Physical Only - 15 Sec Duration - 60 Sec Recast

With stone skins, it can be a little misleading. I wouldn't give this department to either or because depending, either one could be really strong. However, I will say that the Stone Skin reaction proc on Perfect Counter trumps our 3 Trigger Stone Skin on Stone Deaf due to Flurry Spell Attacks. Barrage for instance from Vulak or whatever its called from Cruor all hit back to back like 6 x's for a boatload of damage " I know resists lessen this amount of damage but regardless, its still true". Stone Deaf will absorb 3 of the 6 attacks but Perfect Counter will adsorb the entirety of the attack. With its relatively short recast time, it is up almost every rotation of these types of attacks. Stone Deaf is not and does not absorb the entire attack.
Lets look at Damage Reduction now.

Monk:
Defensive Stance - 5% DR Physical " Always Up "
Provoking Stance - 25% DR All Damage - 12 Sec Duration - 90 Sec Recast
Stone Cold - 15% DR All Damage - 20 Sec Duration - 45 Sec Recast

Bruiser:
Defensive Stance - 15% DR Physical "Always Up "
Stone Cold - 15% DR All Damage - 20 Sec Duration - 45 Sec Recast

Damage Reduction is one of those things that I through up along with my Mitigation Temps to survive a Gap in Temp Buffs. If you run a Dragon Gritt item with DR on it, I would cast it alongside Stone Cold or Provoking Stance / Stone Cold to carry myself through to using Tenacity. So as a Bruiser, you could carry yourself for 20 seconds with a total of 40% DR Physical / 25% Magical. As a monk, you have a 12 second carry of 55% Physical / 50% Magical. Now, yes, there is an 8 second difference in there that you don't have full DR benefit, 30% Physical / 25% Magical. Not a huge difference, but enough to warrant a mention. ..

I could go into the mitigation differences but meh, its would be like mentioning Bruiser proc Stone Skins vs Monk but the fact remains that they were nerfed into oblivion and aren't reliable enough to make a difference.

So... the difference between Monk and Bruiser. Monk has the superior hand in maintaining temp buffs for the majority of the fight before having to call for outside help. They are superior in the fact that due to there high avoidance, you rarely get hit for physical damage and the likely hood of burning all your stone skins and death prevents before your Avoidance buffs are back up are slim to none. It does happen and I can attest to this on either class but its not nearly as likely to happen as it will for a Plate tank.

Temp Rotation for myself included:
Monk:
Tsunami "22secs" -> Bob and Weave"13secs" -> Tag Team "8secs" -> Inner Focus "16secs" -> Mitigation Temps + Provoking Stance + Dragon Grit + " Harder Mobs were I ran Stone Cold " = 13 secs -> Tenacity "49secs"
As long as you dont blow through all your stone skins and eat Tenacity Triggers up premature, your back to Tusnami and work your rotation again. However, this time round, when you get to the Tenacity part, ask for outside help, Warden Thornskin / Cyclone / DI's .. you know, all the stuff there supposed to SAVE for you to ask for.

Bruiser:
Tag Team "8secs" -> Impenetrable Will "13secs" -> Unyielding Will "10secs" -> Inner Focus "16secs" -> Mitigation Temp + Stone Cold + Dragon Grit (( hover over your heal spells Smile )) "22secs" -> Tenacity "49secs"
If your rotation is 100% on spot and you do not loose your stone skins and death prevents all at once and can run there full duration, you can go back into Tag Team and Impenetrable Will before you hit your first gap in time. It is about a 20 second gap that your without anything on your own. Calling for Priest Death Prevents will carry you but remember that the next rotation through, your going to be in trouble due to Tenacity Still being down.

So, there it is. An imperfect break down of Monk vs Bruiser. Monk is going to win hands down in almost every case and the fact remains that this upcoming expansion, if they don't do something, there still going to be just as strong. If they give us another clicky temp for more DR, its just gonna further carry the gap over for Monk and help close it some on Bruiser. With the increases to HP pool for Brawlers in general, a Monk with 3million HP solo, with the ability to temp his Mitigation to that of a Plate Tank, standing with extremely high avoidance, is going to dominate with that temp rotation. Bruiser needs boost to our Unyielding Will for duration or recast and add Stone Skin Reaction to Stone Deaf and I think it would help even the field a little bit.
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Old 10-15-2014, 12:27 AM   #3
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Bruisers don't need a boost. Monks are invincible. Creating a second invincible tank wont be healthy for the game.

Also, you're not including bruisers god tier op 'block/parry/riposte' stoneskin proc. That things bananas.
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Old 10-15-2014, 12:35 AM   #4
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Monks are only invincible if played correctly and I am a prime example of how that is not the case for all players and I think Reptoid would agree with me.
As for Bodyguard of Stone, it used to be bananas until they lowered the % proc rate on it from 25% to 10%, and its only for Riposte, not block's or parries, and truthfully, it procs way less then Aspect of Granite does.

I will agree with you that indeed we dont need another Un-killable tank but when compared to out counterpart, its a pretty big difference. I dont want Monks nerfed but I also dont want Bruisers at the bottom of the barrel again.
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Old 10-15-2014, 12:40 AM   #5
Darkon

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I can afk on a monk and be invincible to everything. I don't think I could die unless I actively tried.

Sure, if you don't click the right buttons your character wont perform as optimally as desired.

Honestly Tsunami is just too game breaking with it's current duration/reuse. That ability is the standout and should probably be adjusted by having it's reuse be unmodifiable. Then monks would be slightly more mortal.
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Old 10-15-2014, 12:50 AM   #6
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I would beg to differ with this statement Smile "Bolded Part".. Either brawler is squishier then any other tank out there unless your actively doing something.

I can put on paper and execute the Monk to be optimal for any play style ya want but implementing it is my issue. I dont know if its just that I am not into playing a monk, dont have the practice I need, or I just suck but the fact remains, Monk is OP / Bruiser is not. I like the Bruiser Better, and honestly feel I play it better, I just want it to be looked at in comparison to other tanks.
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Old 10-15-2014, 12:56 AM   #7
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It's really true friend. Dying on a monk requires talent. Ask Buffrat, he's not particularly good and could tank Vulak np!

Also, brawlers do not take more damage than plate tanks while not casting temps. With equal mitigation and higher base avoid, they will actually take the _least_ rather than the most, mi amigo.
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Old 10-15-2014, 01:06 AM   #8
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Since when does a Brawler have equal mitigation as a plate tank without temping or doing something ?

and quit trolling my post sir. This had nothing to do with what you " think " you can do on a monk. This was pointing out the difference between Monk and Bruiser. Keep it on topic.
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Old 10-15-2014, 01:12 AM   #9
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By using mit temps between 100% avoids. AKA, the only time they get hit, they have more mit.
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Old 10-15-2014, 01:15 AM   #10
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This wasnt his point, he made the statement that he could stand there and be invincible without doing anything. I simply stated we were squishier if we didnt do something. His reply about equal mitigation was in reference to that. I pointed out that we DO NOT have equal mit unless we temp thus voiding his original post.
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Old 10-15-2014, 04:23 AM   #11
Achirin

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I also thought bruisers and monks were supposed to be more offense oriented than the plate tanks. I created my bruiser with the hopes that I could do reasonable DPS in offensive with DPS gear and contribute in a non-MT roll (Back when shard of hate was the only time anyone wanted me to tank). Much like a fury can be more DPS focused than healing. Yet with the newest prestige it seems like it's all focused around us in an MT roll, I'd rather not be a one trick pony. I have a Paladin for that.
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Old 10-15-2014, 10:42 AM   #12
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You mean the 10% on Riposte(Nerfed from 25%) that was put on a wrist and moved to proc on Block which is much more common. Hardly god tier.

Anyways I think sharing AAs with monks yet again puts us farther behind, I was semi interested in Bonebreaking Combination until I swapped to see what the OP SK and Zerkers got and noticed they got the exact same ability except it hits 8 targets instead of our 1.

Martial Leap is indeed broken and having everybody lose 1 hate position at the same time just sounds like it won't work as well. It's pretty much a useless point that I'd rather see changed to some passive stats like AE auto chance or Strikethrough so we aren't the tank 10 miles behind in gearing again to be able to get somewhat bearable stats.

Drag could use a 2nd effect along that lowers a mob's weapon damage bonus by 100 or something like Coule. A very very short but uber damage lowering effect on the mob since the drag won't work on NPCs anymore and I -think- just adding a debuff to it won't break it for PVP and give it a use for PVE since a mob will only be immune to the dragging effect and not the secondary effect.

If you are planning to keep the bruiser's very small range on AE's they need to hit much much harder, I could see a shorter range of AE DPS working and be balanced if our range isn't as large as SKs and Zerkers as long as it hits harder.

Another thing we could use is passive threat in a defensive stance so that when we are running by or when mobs spawn and swing at us, We can get -some- threat so the mobs don't immediately go gank someone.
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Old 10-15-2014, 08:27 PM   #13
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xkrisx's breakdown on the difference in bruiser and monk temps is pretty spot on. At some point the devs decided it'd be an awesome idea to make brawlers face constant one-shots if they didn't have a temp running. That's fine if that's the direction they want to go, but bruisers don't have enough temps to pull it off like monks do. I don't see the HP boost in the new prestige tree changing that much - it'll help, but it won't be the overall fix it needs to be (imo, and barring any big changes in itemization).

Another frustration with bruisers is the large number of stats tanks are required to have and too few reforgable stats to spread amongst them. Tanks need just about every stat in the game to be competitive, to varying degrees. Strikethrough for example is much more valuable to bruisers, who rely on their dps for hate generation, than for say a pally or sk. A large part of that dps comes from auto attacks, so we need a decent amount of dps mod to back that up. Our blue AOEs are relatively few and weak compared to other tanks, so we rely more on our aoe autos for hate - and while yes crane flock is awesome for that, we still need to maintain an acceptable amount for when it's on cooldown. Etc, etc. Combine this with a) bruisers getting no large stat boosts through AAs or abilities (for example, 50% ST on the monk epic buff), and b) bruisers needing to stack tank gear more than most, which has precious few stats to reforge, our stats are often sitting lower than the other tanks. Not a game ending problem, but a frustration for sure.

More specific issues with Bruisers i'd like to see fixed:

AE Radius - it's too small. We have nothing over 5m radius. If that doesn't change I can easily see another expansion wearing my PoW myth cloak. The extra 5m on Wild Beatings is too good to pass up. Would be nice to see Wild Beatings and either Beatdown or Savage Assault bumped up to 10m radius. Or give us an AA to increase our AE radius. Something. Anything. 5m is too small.

Martial Leap - haven't tested it in the last couple months, but before that it just doesn't work as advertised. I don't even take it anymore, it's not worth the 1 point. The description states the threat reduction reaches 10m from the target. My personal testing I never got it to hit over 8m and the threat reduction was always centered on the bruiser, not the target. If the teleport doesn't trigger the threat reduction almost never hits what you want it to. To make it immediately useful: center it correctly on the target, not on the bruiser; and bump the threat reduction radius to 15m. To make it a valued ability: add some threat and/or damage to the mobs, like we used to be able to get when it was in the prestige tree. OR! Scrap it and give us an AA that increases our other AE's radii Wink

Eagle Shriek / Eagle's Patience in the Brawler tree - this AA could have been awesome when our HP pools ballooned in ToV, but it's still horrible. Make Eagle Shriek apply a buff for 30sec when you cross the health threshold, so you don't immediately loose in when a heal lands. Similarly with Eagle's Patience: make the stoneskin automatically apply if you drop below the threshold, not something you need to manually activate. Give it a trigger limit (once/45sec looks to be the norm).

Prestige tree (old one) has a few issues:
Vicious Combination - this is an awesome, very flavorful ability. But we can't use it. Because we can't afford to give up the tanking benefits of the left side. Maybe you could swap martial leap with vicious combination, then we can forget the right side prestige exists completely. Currently it's only a viable option if you're going to be in reckless and know you won't have to tank anything. Please can we have VC back?

Unbreakable - gives rock skin a regenerating ward. The ward hasn't scaled well (at all). The ward needs to be boosted considerably, and the regeneration boosted to match. Alternatively scrap the ward and have it give rock skin 20-30% DR, so we can use it to fill in the gap in our temp rotation.

Painbreaker - 40% chance to reset rock skin when we use ignore pain. Not a big issue, but I think if we're having to blow our heal before we really need it we deserve a better chance at resetting rock skin. Rock skin being our only defense in our temp gaps (and not a great one at that) we could use a better than 40% chance of having it up when we need it.

As for the new prestige tree:
Diamond Flesh - very 'meh'. 3sec of decent damage reduction isn't great. It's just a worse version of gut roar, and I don't remember to hit that on my zerker already. Duration of the [good]DR is too short, recast is too high, and it's an awkward mechanic having to click it off. Not impressed at all.

Boneshattering Combination - very underwhelming at first glance. The threat amount not being modified or able to crit makes that part a bit of a joke. Scrap the % of max health thing and just give it a flat threat amount that is modified and able to crit. Also, the raises-if-in-front/reduces-if-not is another awkward mechanic. We can't use it to grab a mob that got loose without having to re-position. Just make it that it increases threat if in defensive stance and reduces it if in reckless/offensive. The crit bonus boost is also underwhelming. Basing it off our potency is sad, since you chose to take potency off tank armor. Even at 4 increments it's a small amount of cb for a lot of micromanaging, and it's only gonna be at that level for 15sec every 90 at max efficiency.

Personally I think Boneshattering should be changed to a blue AOE. We could use another, especially one with threat increase. Have it increase crit bonus by a % of total crit bonus, multiplied by the number of mobs hit, and scrap the increments. Something that will give us a decent AE dps boost without having a big impact on single targets. I'd honestly prefer to have Vicious Combination than Boneshattering as it is now.


TL;DR give us more range on our blues; fix/scrap martial leap; give us something to use during our temp gap (doesn't have to be a 100% dodge, just some DR or something would be cool); change Boneshattering to something better; give us back vicious combo.
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Old 10-15-2014, 09:51 PM   #14
Genghes

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Inner focus has a duration of 20 sec.
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Old 10-15-2014, 09:57 PM   #15
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TBH I'd forgotten we shared Boneshattering with monks, and I agree, we shouldn't be stuck with a bad ability because of it.
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Old 10-15-2014, 11:37 PM   #16
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I was adding in the 10% Duration Increase from the Dragon AA's.

To add in effect on our AA choices from the new tree, the end lines cannot be shared across both classes like that are your not going to do anything except maintain or further increase the gap between Bruiser / Monk.

Diamond Flesh if given to both classes in its current state or any adjusted state will do nothing but keep the difference between classes the same or possibly increase the gap some.

Boneshattering is pretty unflattering in its current state. The Damage is decent when fully incremented out when compared to our other CA's but is still fairly uninspiring for an end line ability. The threat component of it is very weak in its current state and the % could be boosted. I am not 100% sure how the internal mechanics work but either of the ways I work it, it is kinda lack luster. Ex 2 is better but the positional portion of the ability could royally screw you if the mob mem-wipes or you are trying to pick up an add and its facing away from you, nothing better then a 2.9 million de-taunt when your a tank.
Ex 1:
Brawler sitting at 3 million HP with Threat Increase 3% of Max HP @ 1 Increment / 12% @ 4 Increments
3000000 x .03 = 90k Taunt " Unmodified " - First Increment
3000000 x .06 = 180k Taunt " Unmodified " - Second Increment
3000000 x .09 = 270k Taunt " Unmodified " - Third Increment
3000000 x .12 = 360k Taunt " Unmodified " - Fourth Increment

Possible 900k Threat in 15 Seconds with 60 Second Reuse

Ex 2
Brawler sitting at 3 million HP with Threat Increase 3% of Max HP @ 1 Increment / (3% of Max HP) x 4 @ 4 Increments
3000000 x .03 = 90k Taunt " Unmodified " - First Increment
3000000(.03x2) = 180k Taunt " Unmodified " - Second Increment
3000000(.06x3) = 540k Taunt " Unmodified " - Third Increment
3000000(.18x4) = 2m160k Taunt " Unmodified " - Fourth Increment

Possible 2m970k Threat in 15 Second with 60 Second Reuse

I am not 100% sure how it is going to increment but due to the way it reads, the second example is not likely IMO but the the wording off the Buff """ Increases threat by 3% of the caster's max health if caster is in front of the target. The Damage and threat of this ability are multiplied by the increment count. """" If it keeps the multiplication of damage and threat throughout the entire 15 second duration of the ability then Ex 2 is correct. If it just multiplies the original proc by the increment count then Ex 1 is correct.

The Crit Bonus on the effect could be ok if they plan on implementing Potency back on fighter gear but if not then, change it to be Crit Bonus for Crit Bonus or up the % Gain if your going to leave it Crit Bonus for Potency.
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Old 10-16-2014, 12:47 AM   #17
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Also, We get an AA in the bruiser tree that allows us to use Shiftiness as an alternative to Manhandle, While Manhandle does damage and deaggro, Shiftiness does just deaggro, It'd be nice to have damage on the alternative since it's pretty essential for controlling aggro you don't want as it allows Control Hate to be used as a position decreaser.
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Old 10-16-2014, 05:22 AM   #18
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To be clear Manhandle >increases< threat, and does damage. It does not deagro.

Shiftiness has a couple issues. First being it drops the damage proc despite it being an ability for non-tank thus a DPS Bruiser. additionally Shiftiness is 50% chance on melee hit. Manhandle is on melee hit, triggers about 5.0 times per minute. Not sure the reason for either of those changes.
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Old 10-16-2014, 01:09 PM   #19
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Yeah but the deaggro of shiftiness is worthless. Even at 50% proc rate. Our auto attack negates is entirely.
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Old 10-16-2014, 05:41 PM   #20
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Boneshattering Combination the damage part is Criting normally, but the threat portion is not Criting and it probably should.
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Old 10-28-2014, 12:28 PM   #21
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Bruisers myth buff from the epic quest needs to be looked at imo. The damage reduction and deflection part is fine, np there. But the 2.4 times per minute trigger of increase threat by 19k and crushing damage of 700-1045 is totally irrelevant, and should be adjusted a lot. I suggest to skip the damage part totally, and re-make the threat increase into a threat transfer, sumthing in line with Moderate for Guardians.
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Old 10-29-2014, 02:38 PM   #22
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I second everything that has been said in these posts about Bruisers. Please help us out SOE !!!
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Old 11-01-2014, 10:19 PM   #23
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Thumbs up. Still think Boneshattering should be an AOE for us, but a definite improvement!
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Old 11-01-2014, 11:27 PM   #24
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ya I thought it was interesting that bruiser wasn't aoe. whatever, its a good ability now either way
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Old 11-03-2014, 12:08 AM   #25
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Is there any reason that Diamond Flesh is categorized as a spell? It's the only knowledge book spell I have as a bruiser so seems a bit out of place and would be a pain to have it cancelled while moving (although it seemed to still cast when I was testing it and moving pretty fast).
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Old 11-03-2014, 02:01 AM   #26
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Diamond skin will definitely be situational, but if you pair it up with the sont claw and the 30% reduction part you can use it as another death save
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