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Old 07-12-2012, 01:50 PM   #91
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[email protected]_old wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

So? You can join that shark den, I will be there making sure your not getting tokens.

Um.

Talathion. This isn't rocket science. You can't prevent anyone from getting tokens. You are rewarded tokens for losing. There is no participation check that I know besides the bare minimum of not being AFK in battlegrounds.

You can't prevent crap besides pretending you are keeping players that do this from earning additional tokens. And you know what, they weren't worried about those in the first place.

So really....congrats. You won the imaginary war.

You are rewarded very LITTLE for losing, 10-20, and winning gets you 200-300.

If you are bad when you win you get 30-40.

You actually have to get a decent parse in the new BGs or you don't get anything.

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Old 07-12-2012, 02:01 PM   #92
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

You are rewarded very LITTLE for losing, 10-20, and winning gets you 200-300.

If you are bad when you win you get 30-40.

You actually have to get a decent parse in the new BGs or you don't get anything.

Are you trying to be funny or just not capable of seeing the contradiction in your own posts?

You actually have to get a decent parse in the new BGs or you don't get anything.

You are rewarded very LITTLE for losing, 10-20,If you are bad when you win you get 30-40.

Last I checked in the dictionary, nothing  is not = very little.

Now, if you are trying to say that there is a fail mechanism code installed in BG's that actually makes it so you get absolutely nothing if you don't participate, then please provide proof. It was never that way before and nothing I have read or seen posted changes that. There are bonuses for performing well, I get that. But there is nothing in place to stop a player from zoning in, blah, blah, blahinng while watching television and still earning Havok Marks toward buying PvE useable raid gear.

This happened a lot before. It was an extreme problem at the start before AFK voting/detection and became another issue as it went along. Teams had trouble in 6 vs 6 when 2 of 1 side didn't even try and the same carried over to Ganak/Smuggler's where it was frequently 9 vs 12 or 20 vs 24.

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Old 07-12-2012, 02:12 PM   #93
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[email protected]_old wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

You are rewarded very LITTLE for losing, 10-20, and winning gets you 200-300.

If you are bad when you win you get 30-40.

You actually have to get a decent parse in the new BGs or you don't get anything.

Are you trying to be funny or just not capable of seeing the contradiction in your own posts?

You actually have to get a decent parse in the new BGs or you don't get anything.

You are rewarded very LITTLE for losing, 10-20,If you are bad when you win you get 30-40.

Last I checked in the dictionary, nothing  is not = very little.

Now, if you are trying to say that there is a fail mechanism code installed in BG's that actually makes it so you get absolutely nothing if you don't participate, then please provide proof. It was never that way before and nothing I have read or seen posted changes that. There are bonuses for performing well, I get that. But there is nothing in place to stop a player from zoning in, blah, blah, blahinng while watching television and still earning Havok Marks toward buying PvE useable raid gear.

This happened a lot before. It was an extreme problem at the start before AFK voting/detection and became another issue as it went along. Teams had trouble in 6 vs 6 when 2 of 1 side didn't even try and the same carried over to Ganak/Smuggler's where it was frequently 9 vs 12 or 20 vs 24.

10-20 when an item costs 12000 tokens to buy is nothing to me sir.

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Old 07-12-2012, 02:33 PM   #94
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[email protected] wrote:

Lethlian wrote:

Honestly I like where there going with this update. I think in the long run the things your concerned about Atan won't be anything of the such. PVE gear is always going/will be the best gear to have for PVE period. Peeps if they raid now, aren't going to stop raiding. (think about all the people who couldn't put up ACT and stroke themselves to there parse if they stopped raiding ;p) PVP gear will be the better gear to bgs or open world fight in (if your naggy) hands down because of Lethality. PVP now should be allot more fun and I'am honestly looking forward to this game update and trolling/being trolled by good skilled peeps in BGs again.

Many of the points you bring up are things I'm aware of but didn't delve into when I posted cause I'm concerned about the perception more thant the implementation.  But your post adds depth to this discussion and you raise valid points.

I love where this update is going if my home is on Nagafen.  Everything about it makes sense for that purpose.  Heck if PVP was setup this way and in the game when I started, I very well might be running a raid guild on naggy instead of where I am.  However, I do not agree with the same system applied to PVE servers.  While PVE gear is going to be the best, the PVE gear that is markably better than the PVP set is beyond 85-95% of the raiders out there currently (based upon what drops clearly better stuff and what guilds can kill it).  So, if your not in a guild killing alot of drunder HM, Hexapola, and regularly getting the better EM drops, the BG grind appears to be a better and more sure-fire way to get gear that is PVE effective.

As Mathrim points out, you know you don't have to try, you can just queue up and die a few times and get tokens.  You can figure out which BG gets you the most tokens the fastest and half-asz that ad nausium while you watch TV or play Diablo3 at the same time.

Many people have that perception of the BG reward system.  Because it rewards failure as heavily as it does, its percieved by many as a lazy reward system.  As a result, I'm getting grumbling from a fair amount of PVE players who just aren't sure they want to keep playing when someone can be that sucky and lazy and get virtually the same rewards.  (Yes I know this arguement is used in other parts of game play and isn't a great arguement, but it doesn't mean people don't percieve it this way).

To be fair, there is also a contigent of PVE raiders I've talked to that are looking forward to exploiting BG's to get specific pieces of gear.  So there are those that like the idea of getting better gear with little effort.  My concerns is what it does to those mid and lower tier raiding guilds that are struggling already.  It doesn't take many people shifting focus to cause more of them to fold.

In the end I believe that if the effectiveness in PVE was degraded on all servers but Nagafen, the system would be better.  You're still not making a compelling arguement to me on why any amount of BG grinding should give you PVE effective gear as good as T1 raid gear if the player is on any other server than Nagafen where they can't get jumped into PVP while engaged in PVE content.

Mathrim wrote:

3 points that I think would go a long ways to fixing the majority of raiding complaints I have. It doesn't change the fact that pve heroic content and pve solo content is still eclipsed by pvp gear that can be obtained solo through BG's with minimal player effort.

1. Why is there no easy mode version of Vyskudra and Sevalak? Why are the shoulders and breastplates restricted to Hard Mode kills only? All of the UD bosses have EM and Challenge modes. Fix Vyskudra and Sevalak to have easy modes and the main complaint with those 2 pieces goes away.

2. Jewelry is the biggest pita in game. Especially the earrings since they only drop off of the 1 mob in Skyshrine and only drop one at a time. Jewelry loot tables need to be balanced better. Either add a second earring drop in somewhere or spread out the drop numbers so that jewelry is more available.

3. Install a Raid Skyshrine Exchange vendor that will trade a piece of raid gear from X mob for an equivalent piece of raid gear from the same loot table of X mob + 20 blue shards. As armor pieces and excess jewelry start going to alt level or SLR, raid mains could roll on the item instead and trade it in for their missing slot pieces.

********************

Lethlian writes -

I understand where both of you are coming from and you both have valid points on which I agree with both of you whole heartedly, but you have to understand that those points being made are on a different subject matter entirely (raiding) that is not a result or fault of the pvp system, nor those who plan to play pvp via BGs or those who play on naggy, and finally the employee(s)/maintainer(s) who govern that specific section...That being said let me try to clarify or elaborate better on that;

The Failure of the raiding loot system/randomly generated gear drops, the lack of which gear is avialble and specific mob type/encounter difficulty is a failure on the part of those employee(s)/maintainers who manage the raiding aspect of the game.

Now I understand that both of you mention that there are specific pieces of gear that can be directly targeted and planned for with the use of the token system. I understand that BG's/PVP gear can and will provide specific gear choices for things like chest pieces, shoulder pieces and various jewelry that other guilds might not have access too due to lack of being able to kill the mobs that drop it or a lack of variety in loot in which mobs presently drop. I know how that feels as I myself am guilded in a guild that is only ranked 122 world wide (yeah I know were definitely not world beaters ;p) and I myself could in theory benefit from the practice of using tokens to target gear that I want. Do I agree that is fair, no absolutely not, BUT the fault of that does not lie on you or me or anyone else who so chooses to use PVP gear options as a method to gear up sort to speak. The fault lie's on those who are employed by SOE that govern the raiding section of the house.

Another thing is too is that your points of veiw can be seen as trying to control the way other people want to play that game and that isn't fair. So if someone wants to mini mode his game and play D3 while BG'ing, thats his/her's decision to do so. I know raiders who pay more attention to there T.V when American Ninja Warrior is on then raiding, but I can't nor do I want to control that aspect of how someone else plays.

You have to remember that SOE isn't some omniscient entity that can correct all wrongs and provide everything that everyone wants in every given category. But if anything of late with very recent GU(s) the team is listening to some extent and trying to make the game overall more worthwhile.

As a side note I specifically agree with what Mathrim said in His above quotation when it comes to seperation of making those mobs viable Easy Mode and Hard Mode specific. I think it would be relatively easy to do and subsequently an easy fix to make gear from it both EM and HM separated. I also agree on the Skyshrine Raid Exchange Vendor being implemented. Perfect example of that is the SF expac Heroic, Raid, and Shady token exchanger(s) why they got rid of that idea is beyond me. Whoever implemented that imo was freaking genious and need to bring that guy back to the raiding side of the house. That would be a very reasonable and good solution for what Mathrim is talking about. Because then it gives you options/choices/ and pre planned method of being able to equip your raiding toon with items that he/she cannot get due to already a ton of above mentioned points.

In the end I understand both of you gentlemen's point of view. But you have to understand that you well thought out and educated points are topics that need to be addressed and hammered in the face of those who control the raiding side of the house. Heck I would jump on that band wagon as well to make valid points in hope of someone listening and subsequently adjusting the game based on feedback, but with that being said I stand solid this time on SOE's side as to what there doing with PVP.

Respectfully,

Lethlian

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Old 07-12-2012, 02:35 PM   #95
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

10-20 when an item costs 12000 tokens to buy is nothing to me sir.

Who cares about just you? Apparently just you.

You must not have participated in many BG's in the past.

I got sick of seeing people joining and not participating. They weren't interested in winning. They were just killing time earning some tokens while they did other things. It happened enough to not just me, but friends and guildies, that it got to the point we would just forfeit the match a lot of times by running to the center and dying in 6vs6 or just letting them take the flag in 12v12. Nothing sucked worse than joining a 6vs6 and your healer never even jumps down from the platform up top.

The only interest those people had was in getting their base reward tokens to buy their gear and move on. Once the PvP/PvE gear change split went in, those people quit but so did a lot of the other PvE'ers who were actually enjoying being able to both gear up and do some pvp. Without both of those options, the draw for BG's will be gone.

Do not even kid yourself for a second though if you think the draw of raid level useable PvE gear isn't going to attract a slew of people whose sole interest is grinding out tokens in the easiest way possible with as little effort as needed. It happened before and it WILL happen again. I'm not sure if it will be worse now because it's raid gear or if it won't be quite as bad since there has been a huge population drop since BG's were last viable.

That all remains to be seen. Just don't come on here whining after the fact when you get stuck with PvE'ers flooding your bg's with no intent of trying if it comes to pass. Not really sure what you are expecting to be different when you have gear of that quality available for almost no effort required.

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Old 07-12-2012, 02:53 PM   #96
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[email protected]_old wrote:

Do not even kid yourself for a second though if you think the draw of raid level useable PvE gear isn't going to attract a slew of people whose sole interest is grinding out tokens in the easiest way possible with as little effort as needed. It happened before and it WILL happen again. I'm not sure if it will be worse now because it's raid gear or if it won't be quite as bad since there has been a huge population drop since BG's were last viable.

People who sit on their thumbs in BGs to grind the minimum amount will learn (assuming that the new marks are awarded much the way I've read in this thread) that the "easiest way possible with as little effort as needed" path to BG tokens and gear ... will actually be to fight hard and win.  To be fair, that assumes that those folk are able to perform a simple opportunity cost analysis to compare "10x N matches worth of tokens" and "300x M matches worth of tokens".  Yes, they can AFK/macro and still get a small number of Havoc Marks, and probably some will do that; but I suspect that your more intelligent lazy player will find a different path of least resistance to gear (like farming plat and BLR).

Agreed, the token exchange for BG gear does offer some slots of raid quality gear that would be effectively impossible to buy with current drop rates; but I think there's an economic constraint to just grinding for 10 when you could be playing for many more.  (Hopefully I'm not being too optimistic on that; I will almost certainly be in the BGs again when this hits live servers so will see then!)

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Old 07-12-2012, 03:00 PM   #97
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Lethlian wrote:

In the end I understand both of you gentlemen's point of view. But you have to understand that you well thought out and educated points are topics that need to be addressed and hammered in the face of those who control the raiding side of the house. Heck I would jump on that band wagon as well to make valid points in hope of someone listening and subsequently adjusting the game based on feedback, but with that being said I stand solid this time on SOE's side as to what there doing with PVP.

Don't get me wrong here. I like what Sony is doing with the PvP gear. Creating a balance where the basic level of gear on a PvP player is = a PvE player is a good idea. I know the PvP scene has been shafted and screwed for a long time and I'm glad that you guys are finally getting some attention.  Hopefully it will help bring some life back into that playstyle.

The issue is this. Sony is giving PvP players a direct way of obtaining every piece of your basic level set and yet there is no such treatment for the PvE side. A solo player doing PvP content (includes BG) can obtain every piece they desire completely solo as long as they invest the time. Flip that and view the prism from the PvE side and there is absolutely no comparison path for a solo/heroic/raid PvE player unless you are in the top 1%.

By doing this, Sony is basically saying the base level gear for a PvE player to match a PvP player is full Skyshrine raid gear. Something I would be willing to bet 95% of the PvE playerbase doesn't have even after months of time investment raiding Skyshrine.

I completely agree that this is a developer and management issue that is Sony's responsibility. They should be monitoring the drop rates and gear levels and looking for issues that are easily apparent.  No easy mode bp and shoulders is stupidly obvious. The problem is, they either don't consider it an issue, are incompetent, or just don't care. Look how long it has taken for them to finally address raid difficulty itemization after months and months of screaming about how Skyshrine threw everything out of whack.

Please don't misunderstand me. I like what you guys are getting with the PvP gear. Heck, I'm even going for some myself. It just frustrates that it now looks like the most viable gear upgrade path (especially some specific slots) for a large section of the overall PvE player base may end up being Battlegrounds. That's why I am leanding toward them adding an additonal PvE vendor in that will offer the same possibilites for a solo/heroic/raid PvE player.

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Old 07-12-2012, 03:00 PM   #98
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Another tack:

Atan (and other actual raider types commenting on this thread)--would some kind of raid rewarded "Uber Mark" (corresponding to the Havoc Mark, of course) be a sensible solution?  If you show up to a raid, you get some small number as long as you're not completely AFK--or as long as the raid leader allows you to get them.  If you show up to a raid that wins fights, you get a larger amount of Uber Marks that corresponds to some combination of your contribution to the event (also possibly modified by the raid leader?).  Then RAIDERS would be able to go hit the Uber Mark Leet Merchant in Skyshrine to buy that sweet sweet item that the RNG has been denying them.  Assuming that such an item exists in the slot, at least!

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Old 07-12-2012, 03:07 PM   #99
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The fact that items you can get in BGs are vastly superior than what is aquireable in EM raiding at some slots is something that MUST be corrected.

BPs and Shoulders do not drop from EM content, only the faction merchant (for BP) and Heroic quest line (for shoulders) are the only ways to aquire them, and the the BG gear for those slots is leaps and bounds better.  If BG gear of this quality goes in game like this... then Shoulders / BPs of equal EM Raid quality need to be purchasable from the Faction merchant for a pile of Raid shards (like 50-100 each). 

Honestly, I'm confused as to why there is an EM itemization hole when it comes to BPs/Shoulders in the first place.

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Old 07-12-2012, 03:13 PM   #100
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Gealaen_Gaiamancer wrote:

People who sit on their thumbs in BGs to grind the minimum amount will learn.....

Just to give you some reference, right when BG's came out, I had a couple of guildies in my old guild who had the ability to run EQ2 at work. During the day I would see them hopping in and out of BG's every 10 to 15 minutes when BG's were first introduced but they always had their AFK tag up when they came back to the server.

So I asked them what they were doing.  They were queueing up non-stop back to back and afk'ing the entire time so that they could get their loser marks.  I asked them if they didn't care that they were screwing the BG groups out of a potential win. Their answer. Nope.

They didn't care as long as they were getting their tokens and getting to their ultimate goal. Once the anit-afk code was put in, they just changed to scripting and auto-running to do the same.  I've been in enough BG's to know they aren't the only ones and I got sick of them after a while.

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Old 07-12-2012, 03:19 PM   #101
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kalaria wrote:

The fact that items you can get in BGs are vastly superior than what is aquireable in EM raiding at some slots is something that MUST be corrected.

BPs and Shoulders do not drop from EM content, only the faction merchant (for BP) and Heroic quest line (for shoulders) are the only ways to aquire them, and the the BG gear for those slots is leaps and bounds better.  If BG gear of this quality goes in game like this... then Shoulders / BPs of equal EM Raid quality need to be purchasable from the Faction merchant for a pile of Raid shards (like 50-100 each). 

Honestly, I'm confused as to why there is an EM itemization hole when it comes to BPs/Shoulders in the first place.

Mathrim wrote:

That's why I am leanding toward them adding an additonal PvE vendor in that will offer the same possibilites for a solo/heroic/raid PvE player.

Leth writes:

I agree competely with both of your(s) sentiment. There should be additional PVE Vendors for heroic and raid shard tokens like it was back in the SF expac. Hopefully someone on the dev team will see this and find it logical. Until then the best we can do is just continuely bring this topic back up again and again and again until we see a GU on it. You guys have my backing on it.

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Old 07-12-2012, 03:22 PM   #102
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Gealaen_Gaiamancer wrote:

Atan (and other actual raider types commenting on this thread)--would some kind of raid rewarded "Uber Mark" (corresponding to the Havoc Mark, of course) be a sensible solution? 

I actually floated an idea like this on these forums a year or two ago and people shot it down because they said there were too many currencies already and that it was just being cheap and lazy.

My idea was that the normal bosses drop a tier 1 uber mark if you want to call it. Harder bosses drop a tier 2 uber mark. And then the final boss drops a tier 3 uber mark.

There would be a raid vendor at the entrance of every zone that would trade you gear from the bosses of the zone based off of each value set to the gear.

Easy Boss 1,2,3 Loot = 10 Tier 1 Marks/6 Tier 2 Marks/3 Tier 3 Marks (Must have killed Boss 1,2,3 to purchase)

Harder Boss 4,5,6 Loot = 20 Tier 1 Marks/ 12 Tier 2 Marks/6 Tier 3 Marks (Must have killed Boss 4,5,6 to purchase)

Final Boss 7 Loot = 30 Tier 1 Marks/18 Tier 2 Marks/9 Tier 3 Marks (Must have killed Final Boss 7 to purchase)

This type of system would completely eliminate being screwed by the random generator but still require the player to not only flag for the purchase but work the raid mobs for the marks.  Like I said, the main complaint at the time was from the more elite raiders calling it a chicken way out.

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Old 07-12-2012, 03:48 PM   #103
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[email protected]_old wrote:

Gealaen_Gaiamancer wrote:

Atan (and other actual raider types commenting on this thread)--would some kind of raid rewarded "Uber Mark" (corresponding to the Havoc Mark, of course) be a sensible solution? 

I actually floated an idea like this on these forums a year or two ago and people shot it down because they said there were too many currencies already and that it was just being cheap and lazy.

My idea was that the normal bosses drop a tier 1 uber mark if you want to call it. Harder bosses drop a tier 2 uber mark. And then the final boss drops a tier 3 uber mark.

There would be a raid vendor at the entrance of every zone that would trade you gear from the bosses of the zone based off of each value set to the gear.

Easy Boss 1,2,3 Loot = 10 Tier 1 Marks/6 Tier 2 Marks/3 Tier 3 Marks (Must have killed Boss 1,2,3 to purchase)

Harder Boss 4,5,6 Loot = 20 Tier 1 Marks/ 12 Tier 2 Marks/6 Tier 3 Marks (Must have killed Boss 4,5,6 to purchase)

Final Boss 7 Loot = 30 Tier 1 Marks/18 Tier 2 Marks/9 Tier 3 Marks (Must have killed Final Boss 7 to purchase)

This type of system would completely eliminate being screwed by the random generator but still require the player to not only flag for the purchase but work the raid mobs for the marks.  Like I said, the main complaint at the time was from the more elite raiders calling it a chicken way out.

Excellent example of extreme laziness.  I think I was in groups with them, back in the day.  I had a thought about that ... IRL we have a 'do not call list' -- in BGs we need a "Do not queue me with this loser" list.  Yeah, the BG group matcher has enough problems already, but if you can self identify the loser grinders and never be queued with them again, well, then at the very worst you'd end up against a group of six AFK losers at some point.  Okay, yeah, that'll be prone to some other exploitation.  Any system that involves human beings, especially one with economic incentivization, will ultimately end up screwy.

Chicken way out or not, there are too many dang classes with too many slots and combinations of gear for the developers' spreadsheets to effectively itemize each loot table.  Apparently. 

[email protected]_old wrote:

Gealaen_Gaiamancer wrote:

People who sit on their thumbs in BGs to grind the minimum amount will learn.....

[Nice example; snipped for length.]

Never, ever, underestimate people's ability to be lazy. They will always prove you wrong.

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Old 07-12-2012, 04:32 PM   #104
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EM Raiders: OMG THE GEAR IS AS GOOD AS EM SKYSHRINE GEAR!!! NERF!

HM Raiders: We don't care, more competition.

Heroic Players: Afraid of us being better then you?

Casuals: Whens the new dungeon maker update?!

PvPers: Please don't touch our gear, thanks!

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Old 07-12-2012, 09:12 PM   #105
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Gealaen_Gaiamancer wrote:

  The whole point of the revamp is to make PVP and PVE gear more similar.  It might be a bridge too far, but it also might be a way of fostering broader participation in PVP by traditional PVE'rs and PVE by folks who'd otherwise be PVPing.

I read that point as well and it fixes a very real issue that exists on Nagafen, if only the implementation only affected Nagafen.

You are rewarded how well you do in BGs now, you werent before, so all this arguing about it is silly.

THERE would be no reason for PVErs to do BGs if they gave LACKluster rewards.

Exactly! There shouldn't be a reason for PVE's to do BGs. But then again, there shouldn't be any PVE gear in BGs to start with. Sony invented a new and different gaming system (BGs) and they should have thier own gear, totally separate from PVE and PVP gear. If the gear is equivilant, no matter how long it takes to get it, why would I stay in a raid guild, hope that 23 others can do a coordinated attack when I can do BGs. Why would I ever do any solo content, groups, PUGs or any other type of gaming when I can get as good as raid gear doing BGs? And on my own schedule. No more Mon-Thur 8-11. Heck, got a couple of hours in the morning?....go for it. No one else in the guild on? (oh wait, don't need a raid guild anymore, can join a "family oriented" one now) No problem, go run a BG or two.  Make sure though that all tokens are heirloom though, may want to trade them around so I get get the important pieces (Chest, shoulders for example) for all my toons first.

The only hope to this is for history to repeat itself, Sony screwed up BG's the first time they came out and when they "fixed" them, BG's died. (too bad they didn't stay dead) But hopefully Sony will again get the BGs going again, take massive flack over it again, and fix it again, and BG's will hopefully die a horrible death.... again.

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Old 07-12-2012, 09:22 PM   #106
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Jeepned2 wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Gealaen_Gaiamancer wrote:

  The whole point of the revamp is to make PVP and PVE gear more similar.  It might be a bridge too far, but it also might be a way of fostering broader participation in PVP by traditional PVE'rs and PVE by folks who'd otherwise be PVPing.

I read that point as well and it fixes a very real issue that exists on Nagafen, if only the implementation only affected Nagafen.

You are rewarded how well you do in BGs now, you werent before, so all this arguing about it is silly.

THERE would be no reason for PVErs to do BGs if they gave LACKluster rewards.

Exactly! There shouldn't be a reason for PVE's to do BGs. But then again, there shouldn't be any PVE gear in BGs to start with. Sony invented a new and different gaming system (BGs) and they should have thier own gear, totally separate from PVE and PVP gear. If the gear is equivilant, no matter how long it takes to get it, why would I stay in a raid guild, hope that 23 others can do a coordinated attack when I can do BGs. Why would I ever do any solo content, groups, PUGs or any other type of gaming when I can get as good as raid gear doing BGs? And on my own schedule. No more Mon-Thur 8-11. Heck, got a couple of hours in the morning?....go for it. No one else in the guild on? (oh wait, don't need a raid guild anymore, can join a "family oriented" one now) No problem, go run a BG or two.  Make sure though that all tokens are heirloom though, may want to trade them around so I get get the important pieces (Chest, shoulders for example) for all my toons first.

The only hope to this is for history to repeat itself, Sony screwed up BG's the first time they came out and when they "fixed" them, BG's died. (too bad they didn't stay dead) But hopefully Sony will again get the BGs going again, take massive flack over it again, and fix it again, and BG's will hopefully die a horrible death.... again.

They had seperate gear, it fell flat, they are going back to the way it was from the time PvP launched to where PvE gear works in PvP and is as effect as PvE gear in PvP combat

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Old 07-12-2012, 10:03 PM   #107
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Lethlian wrote:

Leth writes:

I agree competely with both of your(s) sentiment. There should be additional PVE Vendors for heroic and raid shard tokens like it was back in the SF expac. Hopefully someone on the dev team will see this and find it logical. Until then the best we can do is just continuely bring this topic back up again and again and again until we see a GU on it. You guys have my backing on it.

This still fails to address the problem that you can lose and still win raid quality gear through PVP.

You dont get shards for failed efforts. You get PVP tokens if you do nothing, or nothing more than what is needed to circumvent and AFK code.

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Old 07-12-2012, 10:52 PM   #108
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[email protected]_old wrote:

Gealaen_Gaiamancer wrote:

Atan (and other actual raider types commenting on this thread)--would some kind of raid rewarded "Uber Mark" (corresponding to the Havoc Mark, of course) be a sensible solution? 

I actually floated an idea like this on these forums a year or two ago and people shot it down because they said there were too many currencies already and that it was just being cheap and lazy.

My idea was that the normal bosses drop a tier 1 uber mark if you want to call it. Harder bosses drop a tier 2 uber mark. And then the final boss drops a tier 3 uber mark.

There would be a raid vendor at the entrance of every zone that would trade you gear from the bosses of the zone based off of each value set to the gear.

Easy Boss 1,2,3 Loot = 10 Tier 1 Marks/6 Tier 2 Marks/3 Tier 3 Marks (Must have killed Boss 1,2,3 to purchase)

Harder Boss 4,5,6 Loot = 20 Tier 1 Marks/ 12 Tier 2 Marks/6 Tier 3 Marks (Must have killed Boss 4,5,6 to purchase)

Final Boss 7 Loot = 30 Tier 1 Marks/18 Tier 2 Marks/9 Tier 3 Marks (Must have killed Final Boss 7 to purchase)

This type of system would completely eliminate being screwed by the random generator but still require the player to not only flag for the purchase but work the raid mobs for the marks.  Like I said, the main complaint at the time was from the more elite raiders calling it a chicken way out.

This is a terrible idea for raid progression, if you can't kill the mob that drops the chest piece then you shouldn't be able to get the chest piece for killing the easiest 2 mobs 10 times and saving tokens. Just because someone has managed to bink a kill one time means nothing. The mob can either drop a pattern or a token for the pieces of gear it would normally drop. I love the word elite being thrown in here when you really mean those that can. It isn't a chicken way out it is an easy mode method for getting gear that is harder to obtain.

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Old 07-12-2012, 11:10 PM   #109
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[email protected] wrote:

They had seperate gear, it fell flat, they are going back to the way it was from the time PvP launched to where PvE gear works in PvP and is as effect as PvE gear in PvP combat

You are right about separating stats on the gear falling flat. When PvP first released the rewards were really not that big a deal. It was inferior to raid gear. PvP gear was just a stepping stone to get into raid gear and do exile raid PvP. Those were the good old days when Nagafen, Venkor, and even Vox had lots of PvP. There was so much PvP back then because it was part of progression and PvP didn't exist in a vacuum. Really all they have to do is get rid of toughness and lethality to make this system work like it did in the old days.

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Old 07-12-2012, 11:24 PM   #110
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alaplayer wrote:

It isn't a chicken way out it is an easy mode method for getting gear that is harder to obtain.

As easy mode as farming plat and just buying your raid gear via SLR? As easy mode as snooze grinding BG's will be for tokens to buy PvE useable raid gear?

How many raid guilds do you actually know that "bink" a mob once and then never kill it again? I know of almost none. The only ones I have ever seen have that issue is ones that fall apart due to attrition of players leaving.

Is it easy mode? Sure. But so were armor patterns dropping in crates and people liked that way more than the bullcrap with Skyshrine armor. Getting absolutely sick of seeing Druid/Monk armor when its going to 3rd and 4th level alts and we have mains still missing pieces after 3 months.

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Old 07-12-2012, 11:54 PM   #111
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[email protected]_old wrote:

alaplayer wrote:

It isn't a chicken way out it is an easy mode method for getting gear that is harder to obtain.

As easy mode as farming plat and just buying your raid gear via SLR? As easy mode as snooze grinding BG's will be for tokens to buy PvE useable raid gear?

How many raid guilds do you actually know that "bink" a mob once and then never kill it again? I know of almost none. The only ones I have ever seen have that issue is ones that fall apart due to attrition of players leaving.

Is it easy mode? Sure. But so were armor patterns dropping in crates and people liked that way more than the bullcrap with Skyshrine armor. Getting absolutely sick of seeing Druid/Monk armor when its going to 3rd and 4th level alts and we have mains still missing pieces after 3 months.

Killing a mob once does in no way put it on farm status. I didn't say bink a mob and NEVER kill it again if you don't kill the mob that drops the piece then you shouldn't get the piece, it is simple as that, that is why it is on THAT mobs loot table. Armor patterns dropping in crates is not even comprable to what you are asking for. I'm sick of seeing what you are seeing too. My suggestion provides a perfect solution for gearing your force out with what pieces the mobs drop that you are killing, there is no waste but there is no struggle through the mob because your gear is borderline for being able to kill it then farming easy mobs for 4 weeks or so until you have enough tokens to go buy the better gear. There are not even similarities in what you are suggesting vs what I am suggesting, none at all.

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Old 07-13-2012, 01:06 AM   #112
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alaplayer wrote:

Killing a mob once does in no way put it on farm status. I didn't say bink a mob and NEVER kill it again if you don't kill the mob that drops the piece then you shouldn't get the piece, it is simple as that, that is why it is on THAT mobs loot table. Armor patterns dropping in crates is not even comprable to what you are asking for. I'm sick of seeing what you are seeing too. My suggestion provides a perfect solution for gearing your force out with what pieces the mobs drop that you are killing, there is no waste but there is no struggle through the mob because your gear is borderline for being able to kill it then farming easy mobs for 4 weeks or so until you have enough tokens to go buy the better gear. There are not even similarities in what you are suggesting vs what I am suggesting, none at all.

Armor crates are impersonal enough as it is. Turning every single drop from every single raid boss into a generic pattern (which is what you are asking for) is about as interesting as watching paint dry. Does it make it simpler and cause less frustration? Sure. It's also boring and bland. There is no Oohh and Ahhh factor with loot systems like this. There is no excitement when that item you've been wishing for finally drops and you get to roll for it. Frankly, it's a pathetic way to handle loot in my opinion and doesn't have any flavor.

The system I laid out can be tweaked and adjust to factor in solutions to complaints like yours. For instance, since you seem to have so much concern with "binking" a kill and having access to that loot table.  All you have to do is this.

Easy Boss 1,2,3 Loot= 12 Tier 1 Marks/6 Tier 2 Marks/3 Tier 3 Marks (Easy Boss vendor doesn't spawn until Boss 3 is killed)

Harder Boss 4,5,6 Loot = 12 Tier 2 Marks/6 Tier 3 Marks (Hard Boss vendor doesn't spawn until Boss 6 is killed)

Final Boss 7 Loot = 9 Tier 3 Marks (Final Boss vendor doesn't spawn until Final Boss is killed)

This design would completely eliminate the ability to "Purchase Up" that you are so unhappy about without completely destroying the excitement of opening the chest that you would prefer. My system gives people a way around the random loot generator without turning every winning fight into a open chest, 24 people rolling need, loot pinata farm.

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Old 07-13-2012, 01:09 AM   #113
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Did you see the new Charms they added for 1000 dungeon marks?

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Old 07-13-2012, 01:17 AM   #114
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just add a second red slot to raid gear and upgrade the effects for raiding.   

  i agree that bad gear won't bring pve player to bg's and that's the whole point.

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Old 07-13-2012, 02:16 AM   #115
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alaplayer wrote:

Lethlian wrote:

Leth writes:

I agree competely with both of your(s) sentiment. There should be additional PVE Vendors for heroic and raid shard tokens like it was back in the SF expac. Hopefully someone on the dev team will see this and find it logical. Until then the best we can do is just continuely bring this topic back up again and again and again until we see a GU on it. You guys have my backing on it.

This still fails to address the problem that you can lose and still win raid quality gear through PVP.

You dont get shards for failed efforts. You get PVP tokens if you do nothing, or nothing more than what is needed to circumvent and AFK code.

Come on mang, you seriously grasping at straws here with this and this is a straw man arguement.

Yes you don't get shards for failed efforts, but what about the five nameds you killed before getting to your failed effort? and all the loot those mobs dropped before your raid hit its failing point? Unless your trying to tell me that you raid with 24 incompentent players that can't kill a single raid mob? Plus nameds drop boxes which roughly 2 to 4 items per box on average, thats called instant loot gratification on the spot.

Have you considered what happens when you win one round of bgs? you don't get loot, you don't get instant gratification at the chance of a player dropping a box with an item you might want. Instead you get tokens, like around roughly 100 to 150 them to be exact. Oh btw you need THOUSANDS of those to get the "your not really going to use t1 item but have to get it anyways before you can get the t2 item" which guess what....costs ANOTHER THOUSANDS of tokens to get to the Desired t3 item which cost another THOUSANDS of tokens....you see where I'm going with this.

Even better example seeing that I too raid in a WW guild. I raid 4 days a week at 2 hours a session. Now lets say I apply the same days and hours of raiding to be equal to my que'ing for BG(s) since I play on GUK. I can guarantee you in that amount of time I'll have had a chance and access to getting more loot in one raid day, then a week of que'ing BG(s) to get tokens just to purchase t1 useless items for me in which I prolly won't amass enough tokens to even get that t1 item. I'll gladly raid instead for a better chance of getting loot each time we kill one raid mob.

Seriously you guys are looking waaaaaaay too much into this. This is not game changing/ruining/or destroying by any stretch of the imagination.

Respectfully,

Lethlian

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Old 07-13-2012, 04:08 AM   #116
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[email protected]_old wrote:

Armor crates are impersonal enough as it is. Turning every single drop from every single raid boss into a generic pattern (which is what you are asking for) is about as interesting as watching paint dry. Does it make it simpler and cause less frustration? Sure. It's also boring and bland. There is no Oohh and Ahhh factor with loot systems like this. There is no excitement when that item you've been wishing for finally drops and you get to roll for it. Frankly, it's a pathetic way to handle loot in my opinion and doesn't have any flavor.

The system I laid out can be tweaked and adjust to factor in solutions to complaints like yours. For instance, since you seem to have so much concern with "binking" a kill and having access to that loot table.  All you have to do is this.

Easy Boss 1,2,3 Loot= 12 Tier 1 Marks/6 Tier 2 Marks/3 Tier 3 Marks (Easy Boss vendor doesn't spawn until Boss 3 is killed)

Harder Boss 4,5,6 Loot = 12 Tier 2 Marks/6 Tier 3 Marks (Hard Boss vendor doesn't spawn until Boss 6 is killed)

Final Boss 7 Loot = 9 Tier 3 Marks (Final Boss vendor doesn't spawn until Final Boss is killed)

This design would completely eliminate the ability to "Purchase Up" that you are so unhappy about without completely destroying the excitement of opening the chest that you would prefer. My system gives people a way around the random loot generator without turning every winning fight into a open chest, 24 people rolling need, loot pinata farm.

I'm still not sure I get exactly what you are saying.

When you lump mobs 4,5 and 6 into one group as long as a kill on mob 4 or 5 could not be used to purchase from mob 6 then I have no issue with it.

Tier III tokens from kills on HM Tormax should not be good for HM Statue, same for Sullon, Tallon and Vallon, lol I'm sorry but NO, there is absolutely no comparison in the difficulty of the encounters. A great majority of the guilds clearing the UD couldn't clear HM Sullon many of them couldn't even kill Haldane even now with 2 extra levels, new prestige abilities and gear that eclipses the broken joke of itemization that is Drunder.

"complaints like mine" lol yeah well you were the one offering up a system where someone could buy a raid slot for a kill on a boss of a zone and have access to evey piece of gear in that zone through killing the first mob over and over until they had saved the shards for it. You'll have to excuse me if I think that a kill on mob 1 in the zone should do no more than allowing you to kill mob 2 then 3 and so on to get the gear from the higher mobs. They did have smart loot at one time that worked very much like what I offered up, but at no point have they ever offered up a ridiculous suggestion that you should be able to buy a HM Statue chest piece for repeatedly killing far easier mobs. I don't buy SLR pieces, I do get some alt pieces from raids that I am a part of from tie to tie in lieu of us just transmuting the on the spot and rolling for the mana. If you must count that I do run PUR's with that alt on weekends and there is very rarely any gear I need from there and the majority of those pieces go to players with very little raid experience which is good, it gets them geared up, and some exposure to raiding. I'm not an elitist as so many like to use that term on these forums, I just do not think that the token systems you offered up earlier are reasonable at all. You really didn't like mine either but at least mine required killing the mob the loot dropped from to get it. You don't like it, as reasonable as it is, because it means you can't get the piece you want without killing it.

Now as for getting to the mob you want the gear from if you have the trophy (head) of the boss of a zone on any raid memeber I think it would be ok to be able to use it to bypass whatever mobs in that zone you want, then if you can kill the boss again you can continue to bypass the easier mobs.

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Old 07-13-2012, 10:47 AM   #117
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alaplayer wrote:

I'm still not sure I get exactly what you are saying.

Tier III tokens from kills on HM Tormax should not be good for HM Statue, same for Sullon, Tallon and Vallon, l

.......You'll have to excuse me if I think that a kill on mob 1 in the zone should do no more than allowing you to kill mob 2 then 3 and so on to get the gear from the higher mobs. ......I'm not an elitist as so many like to use that term on these forums, I just do not think that the token systems you offered up earlier are reasonable at all. You really didn't like mine either but at least mine required killing the mob the loot dropped from to get it. You don't like it, as reasonable as it is, because it means you can't get the piece you want without killing it.

It really isn't that complicated of a system. I'm not sure why you are having so much issue grasping the concepts. It is open to tweaking and adjusting easily without killing the fun of opening the chests like you propose. Just to highlight what I mean I underlined part of your post above which completely ignored the changes in the second proposal.

Final Boss 7 Loot = 9 Tier 3 Marks (They only drop off of final boss in case you missed that from earlier)

In case you still aren't getting it, that would mean you would need to kill the final boss 9 times in order to purchase an item from the vendor that spawns after killing him. If 9 isn't enough for you to consider it "farm" status and not a "bink" kill, then raise it to 12, 15, 20, 100.  Who cares? It's still a way to get around the random loot generator failures without completely killing any excitement of opening the chest like you would prefer.

Now, as to your complaining about currency being useable accross zones like Hard Mode Tormax being used for Hard Mode Vallon, then that is easily fixable too. All you have to do is use a kill currency system that is more unique. Take Underdepths heroic instance since there is already an in-game example of this. You get a Dozekar head that you can use to go buy an item from the vendor. All you would need to do to meet your requirements is change the currency system from being a Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3 Uber Mark system to a body drop currency system. So, killing Hard Mode Vallon would give you a Fabled Vallon Zek head that can only be used to buy the drops on the vendor that are flagged for that currency. If you kill Easy Mode Vallon, then you get a Legendary Vallon Zek head that can only be used to buy Easy Mode loot. The only real issue with this is you create a massive amount of different currencies when it really isn't necessary. Are you really going to tell me that there is any difference between the 2 easy mode raid mobs in Dracur:Sevalak and the first 4 easy modes in UD? There isn't. They are all snooze fests and there is absolutely no reason to separate the currencies. I would prefer the system be kept where the Marks are generic and are tiered based on the difficulty of the fights to keep from having 50 different currencies (maybe a separate one for the final boss would be ok)

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Old 07-13-2012, 12:21 PM   #118
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I spent some time considering this entire system and I'm going to try to boil this down quickly...

The high effectiveness PVE gear comming from PVP is generally Ok providing you have to try hard and win at BG's to get it.  It seems they're changing the system enough (atleast initial testing is indicating they are) to justify the good rewards being available.   While I personally still do not see a valid arguement for the PVE effecitiveness to be set as high as it is on all servers but Naggy, I can mostly conceed the system is balanced on effort and reward.

Here is my prediction though.

With such a success driven reward mechanism the incentive to run pre-mades is going to be huge.  As such you're going to have a lot of noobs who are only there cause they saw the new rewards and are trying to coast the sytem to get it.   Lets be realistic here, they are going to QQ something fierce about getting owned constantly and unable to get rewards.  You're going to have 100 posts of, ' I'm top notch but I get these fail groups and get no rewards as a result, so I'm just not going to play, blah blah blah'.

I'm as certain of this outcome as I'm certain the sun will rise tomorrow.  Past experience tells me, its just a matter of time before SoE caves on the failure reward nerf.  Either with one broad over-arching stroke or via gradual increments, we'll see SoE cave and raise the rewards for failures in BGs.  I don't believe they have the fortitude to stick to their guns.

So in short, I'm ok with where the gear is with the current failure reward level, but as a reasonable long term player, I have no expectations that SoE will stick to their guns and in weeks or months the system will be softened and the slackers will get their gear without winning.

So, I expect this will just roll forward as it is.   I just will re-itterate, I see no reason for the PVE effectiveness being what it is on non-pvp servers.

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Old 07-13-2012, 02:55 PM   #119
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give raid gear a second red slot.      with pvp having two blue it's the only fair thing to do. 

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Old 07-13-2012, 03:55 PM   #120
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So we have a concept here that we call "Rate of Entry" (ROE) that is how many of a certain object enter the world in a given timeframe. We look at these numbers based on individuals, as well as individual servers. For PvE content, we base our ROE numbers around how often an instance can be run by an individual, for contested content we look at how often an encounter is availabe (respawn, number of instances, etc.). For PvP we look at average win/loss token rewards vs. time to earn.

Right now we are happy with the ROE of the PvP items vs. their quality. If it turns out that the data from live servers doesn't reflect our expectations, then we'll adjust the token costs accordingly. However we won't be changing it soley based on 100 post threads.

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