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Old 03-02-2012, 07:10 PM   #301
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Soul_Dreamer wrote:

As long as the order of the functions are correct this should give us a relatively good measure of how tanking will be effected without a crap load of in game testing.

Avoidance lends take effect in some nonsensical order.  A swing does not have to fail all of the tank's avoidance checks before some of the lends are checked.  Aditu looked at the data closely years ago with regard to Shield Ally (Cleric), but I'm not sure if she ever took the time to figure out the exact order or post it any where. 

The order doesn't matter as much as the end result, the resulting avoidance will be the same no matter which avoid is checked first. They're multipliers so :

a x b x c x d x e x f = c x a x f x e x b x d

@Damager, so taking it to the extreme, if the monk lend is providing 55% of the avoidance and the Guardian is only actually providing 25%, both combined will add up to 80 no matter which is tanking but this would be fine? What happens in this situation if the monk goes down, leaves raid etc, why should the plate tank have to always rely on the Monk for his avoidance, surely this situation would be better with a Monk tank and a Monk lend, why even bring the plate tank?

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Old 03-02-2012, 07:25 PM   #302
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[email protected] wrote:

Damager wrote:

100 swings -55% (Monks uncontested avoid) = 45 hits / .15 (Asumming 15% strikethrough) = 6.75 hits (Amount strikthru immune blocked) is equal to 70% damage reduction and 30% blaock on crusader?

so 1 succesfull strikethrough.. could essentially be 5 hits.    And is that 15% chance to strikethrough from somewhere or did you make that up?  Not ripping .. just trying to understand.

I'm basing my opinion on strikethrough not honoring uncontested avoid from parsing mob hit rates on my sk and having as high as 92% hit rates on me (melee) in defensive.. before the blanket strikethrough nerf.

15% is just pulled out of the air, different encounters have a different strikethru chance.

Yes, strikethru ignores all avoidance checks contested, or uncontested.

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Old 03-02-2012, 07:37 PM   #303
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Soul_Dreamer wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Soul_Dreamer wrote:

As long as the order of the functions are correct this should give us a relatively good measure of how tanking will be effected without a crap load of in game testing.

Avoidance lends take effect in some nonsensical order.  A swing does not have to fail all of the tank's avoidance checks before some of the lends are checked.  Aditu looked at the data closely years ago with regard to Shield Ally (Cleric), but I'm not sure if she ever took the time to figure out the exact order or post it any where. 

The order doesn't matter as much as the end result, the resulting avoidance will be the same no matter which avoid is checked first. They're multipliers so :

a x b x c x d x e x f = c x a x f x e x b x d

Yeah, but how are you getting those multipliers? The avoidance report in ACT isn't going to give you them, since it only records the decisive check, not any of the checks before or after that.

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Old 03-02-2012, 07:53 PM   #304
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Damager wrote:

100 swings -55% (Monks uncontested avoid) = 45 hits / .15 (Asumming 15% strikethrough) = 6.75 hits (Amount strikthru immune blocked) is equal to 70% damage reduction and 30% blaock on crusader?

so 1 succesfull strikethrough.. could essentially be 5 hits.    And is that 15% chance to strikethrough from somewhere or did you make that up?  Not ripping .. just trying to understand.

I'm basing my opinion on strikethrough not honoring uncontested avoid from parsing mob hit rates on my sk and having as high as 92% hit rates on me (melee) in defensive.. before the blanket strikethrough nerf.

15% is just pulled out of the air, different encounters have a different strikethru chance.

Yes, strikethru ignores all avoidance checks contested, or uncontested.

Umm  I am pretty sure that is incorrect, I was pretty sure that strike through doesn't effect dodge avoid, but it did everything else.

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Old 03-02-2012, 08:36 PM   #305
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Hennyo wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Damager wrote:

100 swings -55% (Monks uncontested avoid) = 45 hits / .15 (Asumming 15% strikethrough) = 6.75 hits (Amount strikthru immune blocked) is equal to 70% damage reduction and 30% blaock on crusader?

so 1 succesfull strikethrough.. could essentially be 5 hits.    And is that 15% chance to strikethrough from somewhere or did you make that up?  Not ripping .. just trying to understand.

I'm basing my opinion on strikethrough not honoring uncontested avoid from parsing mob hit rates on my sk and having as high as 92% hit rates on me (melee) in defensive.. before the blanket strikethrough nerf.

15% is just pulled out of the air, different encounters have a different strikethru chance.

Yes, strikethru ignores all avoidance checks contested, or uncontested.

Umm  I am pretty sure that is incorrect, I was pretty sure that strike through doesn't effect dodge avoid, but it did everything else.

Strikethrough Immunity makes ALL uncontested/contested avoidance completely uncontested.

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Old 03-02-2012, 09:53 PM   #306
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Soul_Dreamer wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Soul_Dreamer wrote:

As long as the order of the functions are correct this should give us a relatively good measure of how tanking will be effected without a crap load of in game testing.

Avoidance lends take effect in some nonsensical order.  A swing does not have to fail all of the tank's avoidance checks before some of the lends are checked.  Aditu looked at the data closely years ago with regard to Shield Ally (Cleric), but I'm not sure if she ever took the time to figure out the exact order or post it any where. 

The order doesn't matter as much as the end result, the resulting avoidance will be the same no matter which avoid is checked first. They're multipliers so :

a x b x c x d x e x f = c x a x f x e x b x d

@Damager, so taking it to the extreme, if the monk lend is providing 55% of the avoidance and the Guardian is only actually providing 25%, both combined will add up to 80 no matter which is tanking but this would be fine? What happens in this situation if the monk goes down, leaves raid etc, why should the plate tank have to always rely on the Monk for his avoidance, surely this situation would be better with a Monk tank and a Monk lend, why even bring the plate tank?

Exactly the end result is all that matters, so it doesnt matter what class is lending etc etc the fact remains he will still have 80% avoidance.

I dont know how to answer the second part other than saying he will do the same as if a healer went down or left the raid, Why in the world do we need to rely on a healer, really? ROFL!!!!!!!! You took it to an unrealistic number sir and I still had a realistic response.

Im gonna wait on more of the math problem responses, they make me 0.0

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Old 03-03-2012, 12:18 AM   #307
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[email protected] wrote:

15% is just pulled out of the air, different encounters have a different strikethru chance.

Yes, strikethru ignores all avoidance checks contested, or uncontested.

That is not true. Not all avoidance checks are equal and not all avoidance checks are can be struckthrough. For instance it is immpossible to strikethrough a dodge. You will never see anything in your avoidance reports along the lines of Mobs swings and misses but strikes through the miss. Avoidance checks works in chains a dodge breaks the chain so it can't be struck through. So really plate tanks DO have small ammount of strikethrough immunity because all their uncontested dodge is strikethrough immune. The mechanic already exists to give plate tanks trikethrough immunity and you did not even know it.

This means the whole problem can be solved quite easily then. Just petition for a percentage of uncontested dodge be placed on plate tank defensive stances. Give each class a different amount depending on greatest need. Guardians wouldn't need much since they are already strong while the Berserker would probably need the most. Crusaders would be between those two.

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Old 03-03-2012, 01:01 AM   #308
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you mean.. avoidance food/drink?  /facepalm

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Old 03-03-2012, 01:12 AM   #309
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Also anything with Extra Repost chance.
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Old 03-03-2012, 01:21 AM   #310
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[email protected] wrote:

you mean.. avoidance food/drink?  /facepalm

Yes you can get uncontested dodge which is strikethrough immune from the colossal reactant food and drink and a few other old items. I am talking about using uncontested dodge as tank class ballancing mechanic.

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Old 03-03-2012, 02:25 AM   #311
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Its not a very balanced mechanic if it pretty much puts brawlers ontop of the world.

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Old 03-03-2012, 06:21 AM   #312
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Novusod wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

you mean.. avoidance food/drink?  /facepalm

Yes you can get uncontested dodge which is strikethrough immune from the colossal reactant food and drink and a few other old items. I am talking about using uncontested dodge as tank class ballancing mechanic.

This is why I love this argument and pop up in it. I mean really people throwing theoretical numbers and opinions on something they dont understand in the first place. What kills me is how adement they are about it.  Absurd discusion of course it is.

as I posted earlier...

100 swings -55% (Monks uncontested avoid) = 45 hits / .15 (Asumming 15% strikethrough) = 6.75 hits

I mean really some poeple rolled over laughing at this, others that are complaining are like wow thats all it does rofl. That whole formula is jacked up...

for one thing strikethru only effect avoided attacks how in the world did no one call me on it working on the attacks that hit  rofl......................

Bard I posted a link in your guild forums on how avoidance works last year, comon man.........

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Old 03-03-2012, 08:19 AM   #313
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Damager wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Having both a monk and guard in basically the same gear, I can say the incoming damage profile is much easier on the monk.

There are few places / fights that I think the guard is a tad easier to run with, but in general the overall reduction of damage from auto attacks on the monk makes it significantly easier to survive.

And yes, I'll agree aoe is a tad easier on guard than monk.

But all us plate MT's didn't swap to brawlers cause it made instancing more fun, it made raid progression easier.

Correct the Guard is significantly better equiped for anything other than physical damage, depending on the mob it sways as to which is easier to heal. This is called balance.

I keep up with Monks on the server, That is what their oppinion was after swapping to Monk as their main for some time, When all said and done their Oppinion became there is some things easier on the Guard and other Things easier on the Monk, all said they just enjoyed the class better once they got use to it.

I can say nothing so far in your progression would be impacted either way by a monk or guard or Pally MT.

If you think Paladin is on the same level as Guard and Monk you're delusional.

*Edit* was sure I quoted this from this thread, no idea were it is now.

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Old 03-03-2012, 01:29 PM   #314
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Most people in the thread have already rerolled monks/bruisers along time ago :/

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Old 03-03-2012, 05:20 PM   #315
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Soul_Dreamer wrote:

Damager wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Having both a monk and guard in basically the same gear, I can say the incoming damage profile is much easier on the monk.

There are few places / fights that I think the guard is a tad easier to run with, but in general the overall reduction of damage from auto attacks on the monk makes it significantly easier to survive.

And yes, I'll agree aoe is a tad easier on guard than monk.

But all us plate MT's didn't swap to brawlers cause it made instancing more fun, it made raid progression easier.

Correct the Guard is significantly better equiped for anything other than physical damage, depending on the mob it sways as to which is easier to heal. This is called balance.

I keep up with Monks on the server, That is what their oppinion was after swapping to Monk as their main for some time, When all said and done their Oppinion became there is some things easier on the Guard and other Things easier on the Monk, all said they just enjoyed the class better once they got use to it.

I can say nothing so far in your progression would be impacted either way by a monk or guard or Pally MT.

If you think Paladin is on the same level as Guard and Monk you're delusional.

*Edit* was sure I quoted this from this thread, no idea were it is now.

I didnt say Paladin was on same level, What I did say is there is nothing his guild has killed in their progression so far that I have not watched a Pally MT with ease.

You can argue your math all day, the PROVEN fact remains they MT up to HM sullons just fine. Cleared all 3 Drunder EM zones with Pally MT and Monk OT in a couple hours.

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Old 03-03-2012, 11:37 PM   #316
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Probably a paladin with monk avoidance...

I sure wish dev's read these forums and were thinking of class balance instead of the next SC item and dungeon maker that nobody uses.

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Old 03-04-2012, 09:52 AM   #317
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Damager wrote:

Soul_Dreamer wrote:

Damager wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Having both a monk and guard in basically the same gear, I can say the incoming damage profile is much easier on the monk.

There are few places / fights that I think the guard is a tad easier to run with, but in general the overall reduction of damage from auto attacks on the monk makes it significantly easier to survive.

And yes, I'll agree aoe is a tad easier on guard than monk.

But all us plate MT's didn't swap to brawlers cause it made instancing more fun, it made raid progression easier.

Correct the Guard is significantly better equiped for anything other than physical damage, depending on the mob it sways as to which is easier to heal. This is called balance.

I keep up with Monks on the server, That is what their oppinion was after swapping to Monk as their main for some time, When all said and done their Oppinion became there is some things easier on the Guard and other Things easier on the Monk, all said they just enjoyed the class better once they got use to it.

I can say nothing so far in your progression would be impacted either way by a monk or guard or Pally MT.

If you think Paladin is on the same level as Guard and Monk you're delusional.

*Edit* was sure I quoted this from this thread, no idea were it is now.

I didnt say Paladin was on same level, What I did say is there is nothing his guild has killed in their progression so far that I have not watched a Pally MT with ease.

You can argue your math all day, the PROVEN fact remains they MT up to HM sullons just fine. Cleared all 3 Drunder EM zones with Pally MT and Monk OT in a couple hours.

This is the difference, you seem to think that because any tank can tank easy mode zones there is balance.

Paladins don't have the abilities to block the hard hitting AOE's, or to protect themselves from Melee around the time it's due to allow wards to Absorb them,our abilities can be STRUCKTHROUGH!. Monks/Guards/Brawlers can, this is whats making them so successful and the primary choice.

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Old 03-04-2012, 06:04 PM   #318
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Soul_Dreamer wrote:

Damager wrote:

Soul_Dreamer wrote:

Damager wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Having both a monk and guard in basically the same gear, I can say the incoming damage profile is much easier on the monk.

There are few places / fights that I think the guard is a tad easier to run with, but in general the overall reduction of damage from auto attacks on the monk makes it significantly easier to survive.

And yes, I'll agree aoe is a tad easier on guard than monk.

But all us plate MT's didn't swap to brawlers cause it made instancing more fun, it made raid progression easier.

Correct the Guard is significantly better equiped for anything other than physical damage, depending on the mob it sways as to which is easier to heal. This is called balance.

I keep up with Monks on the server, That is what their oppinion was after swapping to Monk as their main for some time, When all said and done their Oppinion became there is some things easier on the Guard and other Things easier on the Monk, all said they just enjoyed the class better once they got use to it.

I can say nothing so far in your progression would be impacted either way by a monk or guard or Pally MT.

If you think Paladin is on the same level as Guard and Monk you're delusional.

*Edit* was sure I quoted this from this thread, no idea were it is now.

I didnt say Paladin was on same level, What I did say is there is nothing his guild has killed in their progression so far that I have not watched a Pally MT with ease.

You can argue your math all day, the PROVEN fact remains they MT up to HM sullons just fine. Cleared all 3 Drunder EM zones with Pally MT and Monk OT in a couple hours.

This is the difference, you seem to think that because any tank can tank easy mode zones there is balance.

Paladins don't have the abilities to block the hard hitting AOE's, or to protect themselves from Melee around the time it's due to allow wards to Absorb them,our abilities can be STRUCKTHROUGH!. Monks/Guards/Brawlers can, this is whats making them so successful and the primary choice.

Im not big on hear say so only reference what I have personaly seen, They are not my opinions either rather fact they have done it without issue. My appologies if that came accross as saying they can only tank EM as Pally can and has tanked all of HM Kraytocs, and all of the HM Foundations and HOL mobs my old guild has done as well. So what I was trying to say is they can and have tanked no problem all content (EM/HM) up to HM Sullons. I have not personally seen a Pally even try HM Sullons so that is as far as I can comment on. I am by no means saying they can or cant, I personaly have not seen one even try.

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Old 03-05-2012, 10:55 AM   #319
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Damager wrote:

Soul_Dreamer wrote:

Damager wrote:

Soul_Dreamer wrote:

Damager wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Having both a monk and guard in basically the same gear, I can say the incoming damage profile is much easier on the monk.

There are few places / fights that I think the guard is a tad easier to run with, but in general the overall reduction of damage from auto attacks on the monk makes it significantly easier to survive.

And yes, I'll agree aoe is a tad easier on guard than monk.

But all us plate MT's didn't swap to brawlers cause it made instancing more fun, it made raid progression easier.

Correct the Guard is significantly better equiped for anything other than physical damage, depending on the mob it sways as to which is easier to heal. This is called balance.

I keep up with Monks on the server, That is what their oppinion was after swapping to Monk as their main for some time, When all said and done their Oppinion became there is some things easier on the Guard and other Things easier on the Monk, all said they just enjoyed the class better once they got use to it.

I can say nothing so far in your progression would be impacted either way by a monk or guard or Pally MT.

If you think Paladin is on the same level as Guard and Monk you're delusional.

*Edit* was sure I quoted this from this thread, no idea were it is now.

I didnt say Paladin was on same level, What I did say is there is nothing his guild has killed in their progression so far that I have not watched a Pally MT with ease.

You can argue your math all day, the PROVEN fact remains they MT up to HM sullons just fine. Cleared all 3 Drunder EM zones with Pally MT and Monk OT in a couple hours.

This is the difference, you seem to think that because any tank can tank easy mode zones there is balance.

Paladins don't have the abilities to block the hard hitting AOE's, or to protect themselves from Melee around the time it's due to allow wards to Absorb them,our abilities can be STRUCKTHROUGH!. Monks/Guards/Brawlers can, this is whats making them so successful and the primary choice.

Im not big on hear say so only reference what I have personaly seen, They are not my opinions either rather fact they have done it without issue. My appologies if that came accross as saying they can only tank EM as Pally can and has tanked all of HM Kraytocs, and all of the HM Foundations and HOL mobs my old guild has done as well. So what I was trying to say is they can and have tanked no problem all content (EM/HM) up to HM Sullons. I have not personally seen a Pally even try HM Sullons so that is as far as I can comment on. I am by no means saying they can or cant, I personaly have not seen one even try.

I tanked all EM with ease; and most of HM with ease as well... struggled on the Pant d00d; but with Warden in the group worked like a charm; a brawler finds that mob *far* easier. Only reason I tanked it over the brawler at the time is I had more MTing experiance. Started on HM Drunder and HM King T but never killed them as it became *painfully* obvious to everyone that my survibility was so low it was actually harming my guild for me to be involved in any sort of tanking role.

Even fully defensively speced, defensive stance everything a pally can die when tanking a HM mob in Drunder *with* a "save" up. Work it out and a pally only gets one reliable save every 2m30s and that is from dieing... every other save has a condition which more often than not means the save is useless. Even Legionaries conviction is not immune... as it is only 40% Magical DR, 60% of the attack still gets through and clears out your wards meaning the next autoattack hits you full on; which often happened instantly due to the way autoattack works.

Even a zerker and an SK have more defensive tools to deal with HM Drunder and that's saying something.

EM and Instance tanks are level pegging but get into Hm and three tanks leave the others so far behind any guild will be stupid to use anything other than a guard/monk/bruiser combination - and sometimes just a brawler/brawler.

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Old 03-05-2012, 12:17 PM   #320
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my head hurts...  good bye thread. /waves

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Old 03-05-2012, 02:36 PM   #321
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[email protected] wrote:

Damager wrote:

Soul_Dreamer wrote:

Damager wrote:

I didnt say Paladin was on same level, What I did say is there is nothing his guild has killed in their progression so far that I have not watched a Pally MT with ease.

You can argue your math all day, the PROVEN fact remains they MT up to HM sullons just fine. Cleared all 3 Drunder EM zones with Pally MT and Monk OT in a couple hours.

This is the difference, you seem to think that because any tank can tank easy mode zones there is balance.

Paladins don't have the abilities to block the hard hitting AOE's, or to protect themselves from Melee around the time it's due to allow wards to Absorb them,our abilities can be STRUCKTHROUGH!. Monks/Guards/Brawlers can, this is whats making them so successful and the primary choice.

Im not big on hear say so only reference what I have personaly seen, They are not my opinions either rather fact they have done it without issue. My appologies if that came accross as saying they can only tank EM as Pally can and has tanked all of HM Kraytocs, and all of the HM Foundations and HOL mobs my old guild has done as well. So what I was trying to say is they can and have tanked no problem all content (EM/HM) up to HM Sullons. I have not personally seen a Pally even try HM Sullons so that is as far as I can comment on. I am by no means saying they can or cant, I personaly have not seen one even try.

I tanked all EM with ease; and most of HM with ease as well... struggled on the Pant d00d; but with Warden in the group worked like a charm; a brawler finds that mob *far* easier. Only reason I tanked it over the brawler at the time is I had more MTing experiance. Started on HM Drunder and HM King T but never killed them as it became *painfully* obvious to everyone that my survibility was so low it was actually harming my guild for me to be involved in any sort of tanking role.

Even fully defensively speced, defensive stance everything a pally can die when tanking a HM mob in Drunder *with* a "save" up. Work it out and a pally only gets one reliable save every 2m30s and that is from dieing... every other save has a condition which more often than not means the save is useless. Even Legionaries conviction is not immune... as it is only 40% Magical DR, 60% of the attack still gets through and clears out your wards meaning the next autoattack hits you full on; which often happened instantly due to the way autoattack works.

Even a zerker and an SK have more defensive tools to deal with HM Drunder and that's saying something.

EM and Instance tanks are level pegging but get into Hm and three tanks leave the others so far behind any guild will be stupid to use anything other than a guard/monk/bruiser combination - and sometimes just a brawler/brawler.

You seem pretty level headed on this and seeing pretty much the same as I am. HM Pants dude really is just execution, Guard tank with skilled raid force made this fight look like easiest in zone /shrug, they didnt even tell me their strat before pull I get the hey just follow your group around lol as they werent even worried about this fight.

HM King T, Yeah Pally this is where you can see the Pally having some issues as well on First HM named in Sullons. Pally can OT dragon or adds.

Not knowing Pally at all what would you realisticly say would help at this point in progression on the Pally?

Guard at most minor tweaks IMHO. SK, Pally, and especially zerk need some love.

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Old 03-05-2012, 04:44 PM   #322
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Damager wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Damager wrote:

Soul_Dreamer wrote:

Damager wrote:

I didnt say Paladin was on same level, What I did say is there is nothing his guild has killed in their progression so far that I have not watched a Pally MT with ease.

You can argue your math all day, the PROVEN fact remains they MT up to HM sullons just fine. Cleared all 3 Drunder EM zones with Pally MT and Monk OT in a couple hours.

This is the difference, you seem to think that because any tank can tank easy mode zones there is balance.

Paladins don't have the abilities to block the hard hitting AOE's, or to protect themselves from Melee around the time it's due to allow wards to Absorb them,our abilities can be STRUCKTHROUGH!. Monks/Guards/Brawlers can, this is whats making them so successful and the primary choice.

Im not big on hear say so only reference what I have personaly seen, They are not my opinions either rather fact they have done it without issue. My appologies if that came accross as saying they can only tank EM as Pally can and has tanked all of HM Kraytocs, and all of the HM Foundations and HOL mobs my old guild has done as well. So what I was trying to say is they can and have tanked no problem all content (EM/HM) up to HM Sullons. I have not personally seen a Pally even try HM Sullons so that is as far as I can comment on. I am by no means saying they can or cant, I personaly have not seen one even try.

I tanked all EM with ease; and most of HM with ease as well... struggled on the Pant d00d; but with Warden in the group worked like a charm; a brawler finds that mob *far* easier. Only reason I tanked it over the brawler at the time is I had more MTing experiance. Started on HM Drunder and HM King T but never killed them as it became *painfully* obvious to everyone that my survibility was so low it was actually harming my guild for me to be involved in any sort of tanking role.

Even fully defensively speced, defensive stance everything a pally can die when tanking a HM mob in Drunder *with* a "save" up. Work it out and a pally only gets one reliable save every 2m30s and that is from dieing... every other save has a condition which more often than not means the save is useless. Even Legionaries conviction is not immune... as it is only 40% Magical DR, 60% of the attack still gets through and clears out your wards meaning the next autoattack hits you full on; which often happened instantly due to the way autoattack works.

Even a zerker and an SK have more defensive tools to deal with HM Drunder and that's saying something.

EM and Instance tanks are level pegging but get into Hm and three tanks leave the others so far behind any guild will be stupid to use anything other than a guard/monk/bruiser combination - and sometimes just a brawler/brawler.

You seem pretty level headed on this and seeing pretty much the same as I am. HM Pants dude really is just execution, Guard tank with skilled raid force made this fight look like easiest in zone /shrug, they didnt even tell me their strat before pull I get the hey just follow your group around lol as they werent even worried about this fight.

HM King T, Yeah Pally this is where you can see the Pally having some issues as well on First HM named in Sullons. Pally can OT dragon or adds.

Not knowing Pally at all what would you realisticly say would help at this point in progression on the Pally?

Guard at most minor tweaks IMHO. SK, Pally, and especially zerk need some love.

A decent stoneskin like ability on a ~2min base timer, Holy ground changed to be 1 hate position per spell not the 4k-10k hate it has. Maybe the re-use of HG taken up to 2min from 1min 30 to compensate for the change. 

Other than those 2 simple things, strikethrough immunity added to all their temp blocks. The latter should be the minimum for all plate tanks.

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Old 03-06-2012, 11:58 AM   #323
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I have always been in favour of moving away from the AA trees as the only method to get "saves" Since we share our tree with SKs any bonus we get they will as well. Since SKs actually have 3 additional "saves" we do not get (where furor is approximatly equal to stonewall).

Pallys have too many direct heals which should be altered to provide a better solution to absorbing damage other than "but you can heal" as that argument left a long time ago.

Including a magical stoneskin trigger on our ward (with slightly increased recast time ofc) and changing our main direct heal (Holy Aid) into a single shot reactive > 30% health would go down great to increasing the survivability of the class without compromising the flavour.

FYI - pallys have 5 Direct heals; 7 other ways to "proc" health and 2 wards.... most healers do not have that many! but the thing with heals... is you have to geat hit first and a dead pally cannot heal.

But this is not the thread for that and it has been brought up *many* times in the paladin section and subsequently ignored. So for this thread all I can say is:  Yup... Pallys are broken endgame to such an extent that guilds who choose to use a Paladin tank in HM encounters are purposefully gimping themselves

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Old 03-06-2012, 02:22 PM   #324
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[email protected] wrote:

I have always been in favour of moving away from the AA trees as the only method to get "saves" Since we share our tree with SKs any bonus we get they will as well. Since SKs actually have 3 additional "saves" we do not get (where furor is approximatly equal to stonewall).

Pallys have too many direct heals which should be altered to provide a better solution to absorbing damage other than "but you can heal" as that argument left a long time ago.

Including a magical stoneskin trigger on our ward (with slightly increased recast time ofc) and changing our main direct heal (Holy Aid) into a single shot reactive > 30% health would go down great to increasing the survivability of the class without compromising the flavour.

FYI - pallys have 5 Direct heals; 7 other ways to "proc" health and 2 wards.... most healers do not have that many! but the thing with heals... is you have to geat hit first and a dead pally cannot heal.

But this is not the thread for that and it has been brought up *many* times in the paladin section and subsequently ignored. So for this thread all I can say is:  Yup... Pallys are broken endgame to such an extent that guilds who choose to use a Paladin tank in HM encounters are purposefully gimping themselves

To address what boli said, in short yes. The fact that SK's are more defensive than paladins is just disturbing tbh. And our heals being direct are insufficient. The only one that is reliable is our stoneskin and it only recieves 1/3 of our potency buff. THIS INCLUDES AN AA THAT INCREASES WARD AMOUNT BY 20% it only actually increases it by 6.7% which is utter bull. As stated our primary heal needs to be a reactive, the amount of direct heals we have is apaling, even with heal crits added to paladins again the only one that would be reliable is still the stone skin. The direct heals critting would mean nothing as more often than not if i cast it a healers heal goes off before mine so i just top mysefl off from 95% to 100% (wooooooooooooo). 

Paladins need either 1 more stap (3 positions+) or change HG to have 1 hate position each time it hits a mob. As it is now HG is more of a dps tool or as an initial aoe snap nothing more really. 

Paladins need to have stoneskins that are NOT shared with SK's. As it is now EVERY stoneskin a paladin has (as well as LC) a SK can get as well. We have none outside of that. I am in favor of turning either Arch Healing (Useless AA heal that heals for less than our main heal) or Devout Sacrament (another self direct heal) into a stoneskin on a reasonable reuse (90 - 120 seconds base).

Looking at this thread it was mentioned and a pic was linked earlier of one of the brawler classes getting a ward on a 45 sec reuse (capped) that as well angers me. The reason being is their ward is 22k+ on a 45 sec reuse cap. Where as paladin is 13k on a 30 sec reuse cap. So they get nearly 2X the ward amount for only 1.5X the recast. 

I have tanked the first named in HM sullons and working on 2nd as my paladin. The first named i have to time every temp i have (full defensive speced manawall / LC) perfectly, and still have to call out for a healers death save, and STILL die due to random stuff. On the second named in HM sullons it was me on adds as i am typically better at the aoe hate than our SK (amends a lock and timing HG holds agro well). However the adds will still beat the S outa me and i die. As of last raid (and possibly more in the future) our illy has a geared bruiser and i have a semi geared illy. They may be instead switching our positionins because of my paladins lack of survivability in progression. 

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Old 03-06-2012, 02:41 PM   #325
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[email protected] wrote:

I have always been in favour of moving away from the AA trees as the only method to get "saves" Since we share our tree with SKs any bonus we get they will as well. Since SKs actually have 3 additional "saves" we do not get (where furor is approximatly equal to stonewall).

Pallys have too many direct heals which should be altered to provide a better solution to absorbing damage other than "but you can heal" as that argument left a long time ago.

Including a magical stoneskin trigger on our ward (with slightly increased recast time ofc) and changing our main direct heal (Holy Aid) into a single shot reactive > 30% health would go down great to increasing the survivability of the class without compromising the flavour.

FYI - pallys have 5 Direct heals; 7 other ways to "proc" health and 2 wards.... most healers do not have that many! but the thing with heals... is you have to geat hit first and a dead pally cannot heal.

But this is not the thread for that and it has been brought up *many* times in the paladin section and subsequently ignored. So for this thread all I can say is:  Yup... Pallys are broken endgame to such an extent that guilds who choose to use a Paladin tank in HM encounters are purposefully gimping themselves

What are these additional saves SK have please? Do you mean Hateful Respite, Blood Siphon and ?

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Old 03-06-2012, 06:07 PM   #326
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most of this thread has been like the above.. just guessing.. not sure..

I heard this guy say this about this class.... 

Protection value on shields (plate tanks avoidance) needs itemized correctly so there is an actual upgrade path and not stinking dps stats.  For all plate tanks.

both crusaders need their aes to be able to cast and run  (rounding up adds.. it only makes sense.. they can actually... "chase down adds")

both crusaders could use reliable snap agros.. heaven forbid a target lock (that works)

Pally needs to be able to break the hate transfer cap

and both crusaders need a pet.. a brawler pet .. that can cast avoidance on the crusader..  !!  /wave damager.

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Old 03-06-2012, 07:21 PM   #327
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[email protected] wrote:

most of this thread has been like the above.. just guessing.. not sure..

I heard this guy say this about this class.... 

Protection value on shields (plate tanks avoidance) needs itemized correctly so there is an actual upgrade path and not stinking dps stats.  For all plate tanks.

both crusaders need their aes to be able to cast and run  (rounding up adds.. it only makes sense.. they can actually... "chase down adds")

both crusaders could use reliable snap agros.. heaven forbid a target lock (that works)

Pally needs to be able to break the hate transfer cap

and both crusaders need a pet.. a brawler pet .. that can cast avoidance on the crusader..  !!  /wave damager.

Critical Heals need to come back.

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Old 03-06-2012, 07:36 PM   #328
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[email protected] wrote:

Pally needs to be able to break the hate transfer cap

No.

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Old 03-07-2012, 06:22 AM   #329
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I have always been in favour of moving away from the AA trees as the only method to get "saves" Since we share our tree with SKs any bonus we get they will as well. Since SKs actually have 3 additional "saves" we do not get (where furor is approximatly equal to stonewall).

Pallys have too many direct heals which should be altered to provide a better solution to absorbing damage other than "but you can heal" as that argument left a long time ago.

Including a magical stoneskin trigger on our ward (with slightly increased recast time ofc) and changing our main direct heal (Holy Aid) into a single shot reactive > 30% health would go down great to increasing the survivability of the class without compromising the flavour.

FYI - pallys have 5 Direct heals; 7 other ways to "proc" health and 2 wards.... most healers do not have that many! but the thing with heals... is you have to geat hit first and a dead pally cannot heal.

But this is not the thread for that and it has been brought up *many* times in the paladin section and subsequently ignored. So for this thread all I can say is:  Yup... Pallys are broken endgame to such an extent that guilds who choose to use a Paladin tank in HM encounters are purposefully gimping themselves

What are these additional saves SK have please? Do you mean Hateful Respite, Blood Siphon and ?

Myth Clicky... I'm not saying those saves are "awesome"... but you get them in addition to the shared saves. Pallys on the other hand do not get any more than are shared between crusaders (if we say that Stonewall == Furor and Divine Favor == SK Death prevent)

And pallys already sort of break the agro transfer cap using Sigil; but then no tank has issues with sustained hate anymore its the snaps some tanks have in abundance and others do not.

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Old 03-07-2012, 08:10 AM   #330
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I have always been in favour of moving away from the AA trees as the only method to get "saves" Since we share our tree with SKs any bonus we get they will as well. Since SKs actually have 3 additional "saves" we do not get (where furor is approximatly equal to stonewall).

Pallys have too many direct heals which should be altered to provide a better solution to absorbing damage other than "but you can heal" as that argument left a long time ago.

Including a magical stoneskin trigger on our ward (with slightly increased recast time ofc) and changing our main direct heal (Holy Aid) into a single shot reactive > 30% health would go down great to increasing the survivability of the class without compromising the flavour.

FYI - pallys have 5 Direct heals; 7 other ways to "proc" health and 2 wards.... most healers do not have that many! but the thing with heals... is you have to geat hit first and a dead pally cannot heal.

But this is not the thread for that and it has been brought up *many* times in the paladin section and subsequently ignored. So for this thread all I can say is:  Yup... Pallys are broken endgame to such an extent that guilds who choose to use a Paladin tank in HM encounters are purposefully gimping themselves

What are these additional saves SK have please? Do you mean Hateful Respite, Blood Siphon and ?

Myth Clicky... I'm not saying those saves are "awesome"... but you get them in addition to the shared saves. Pallys on the other hand do not get any more than are shared between crusaders (if we say that Stonewall == Furor and Divine Favor == SK Death prevent)

And pallys already sort of break the agro transfer cap using Sigil; but then no tank has issues with sustained hate anymore its the snaps some tanks have in abundance and others do not.

For some reason I though Paladins get similar spell on their mystical too. Sorry my bad.

 They can still give Paladins additional "saves" via AA by putting them on the Paladin tree so that SK can't get them. However I think it's better to make your current "useless" spells better than giving more buttons to press.

 

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