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Old 11-20-2011, 12:34 AM   #1
millie

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When I heard about this from fanfare this is the sort of 'Design Tool' I thought you were giving us:http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20061121t

With toolboxes full of room tiles we could mix and match to build our own map

Event triggers to spawn mobs

One way doors

The ability to design non-linear content.

The ability to set 'victory conditions' that did not involve killing every mob in the zone.

What we seemt to be getting is a bit of fluff that will not be used in 3 months time.

If you had of gone down the "Dungeon Builder" route you could have been picking "the best of breed" dungeons in a few months time and adding them as standard content to the game.

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Old 11-20-2011, 01:48 AM   #2
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millie wrote:

What we seemt to be getting is a bit of fluff that will not be used in 3 months time.

tbh your giving this PoS feature more longevity then its going to have. you dont take your toon in them its pretty much a arena pet. so yeah its going to blow.

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Old 11-20-2011, 09:40 AM   #3
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millie wrote:

With toolboxes full of room tiles we could mix and match to build our own map

Event triggers to spawn mobs

One way doors

The ability to design non-linear content.

The ability to set 'victory conditions' that did not involve killing every mob in the zone.

No.

No.

No.

No.

No.

During the webcast, Brasse made a particularly smarmy comment -- "So now all of you people who have ever complained about how badly the designers make dungeons in EQ2, now you can show them exactly how the pacing should be done, where the mobs should be, and so on, cause we all know you’re the experts."

Except that we aren't being given any of the tools that developers have. We're being told "ok, go design dungeons you snotty little whiners" yet both of our hands are tied behind our backs. There is no way for us to make a dungeon that can even touch any of the scripting or setups of "official" dungeons. We are extremely handicapped, even if you forget about not being able to play our own characters for a minute. So SOE will be able to say "see, the players can't make dungeons as good as ones made by our artists!"

I can see why they renamed it from Design Your Own Dungeon. You don't Design it. It's not Yours. And you don't "Own" it. Dungeon Maker or maybe Dungeon Decorator would have been the best title for it.

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Old 11-20-2011, 10:50 AM   #4
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Feldon you hit the nail right on the head, "Dungeon Decorator" would be a PERFECT name for the DYOD.  I listened to that webcast and the first wave of nausea hit me when I realized we wouldn't be able to actually construct the dungeons, rather they would be premade and we would be able to merely place mobs and objects in there.  Heck we can't even give the NPC's dialogue, that would have deepened the experience quite a bit, now if I'm lucky I can read a player made book.

My wish would be that SOE would take just a single "feature" and just put all their devs on it and make it incredible, instead of getting a dozen half baked features.

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Old 11-20-2011, 11:04 AM   #5
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feldon30 wrote:

During the webcast, Brasse made a particularly smarmy comment -- "So now all of you people who have ever complained about how badly the designers make dungeons in EQ2, now you can show them exactly how the pacing should be done, where the mobs should be, and so on, cause we all know you’re the experts."

Both of the elements specifically mentioned by Brasse.. dungeon pacing, mob placement.. are fully in the control of anyone using the new tool.

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Old 11-20-2011, 11:09 AM   #6
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feldon30 wrote:

. So SOE will be able to say "see, the players can't make dungeons as good as ones made by our artists!"

Although I don't argue with anyone who wishes we could do more...down to creating the dungeons ourselves or playing as ourselves, I take issue with the idea that the devs would EVER say such a thing. They are, I'm sure, well aware that we have a toy box compared to their toolbox, they even laughed at the one question asking if our tools looked like theirs, noting how different they are. Over the last few weeks I've watched more pod casts then I have my last 5 years and I continue to walk away with the impression that these are nice, hardworking guys.

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Old 11-20-2011, 11:53 AM   #7
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I had really high hopes for the dyod, being an avid fan of rts games like starcraft which come what blizzard calls the map editor the things one can do with that are truly amazing. it basically gives you the abilty to make anything you like even an entire new game. I for some reason was thinking this was kinda soe way of getting into that niche as the one for blizzard has a very large thriving community of people that build and play their own maps.

After watching the pod cast i was very disappointed in the fact you are pretty much as was said above decorating your pre laid out dungeon SMILEY While i was not expecting dyod to be on the scale of map editor i really thought it would be much deeper in detail than it is.

i will still most likely get the xpac though i am worried with the direction of my beloved eq2

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Old 11-20-2011, 11:56 AM   #8
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Wow, did a decorator actually say they were upset with the direction of decorating?  *dun dun dun*

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Old 11-20-2011, 12:00 PM   #9
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feldon30 wrote:

During the webcast, Brasse made a particularly smarmy comment -- "So now all of you people who have ever complained about how badly the designers make dungeons in EQ2, now you can show them exactly how the pacing should be done, where the mobs should be, and so on, cause we all know you’re the experts."

Except that we aren't being given any of the tools that developers have. We're being told "ok, go design dungeons you snotty little whiners" yet both of our hands are tied behind our backs. There is no way for us to make a dungeon that can even touch any of the scripting or setups of "official" dungeons. We are extremely handicapped, even if you forget about not being able to play our own characters for a minute. So SOE will be able to say "see, the players can't make dungeons as good as ones made by our artists!"

I can see why they renamed it from Design Your Own Dungeon. You don't Design it. It's not Yours. And you don't "Own" it. Dungeon Maker or maybe Dungeon Decorator would have been the best title for it.

I cannot agree more.  I was looking forward to this feature.  I knew it might be slightly disappointing because of the size of the dev team but I never imagined it's just be a 'dungeon decorator'.  The only reason to buy the expansion is the AA...  Hm, maybe I'll wait to see if it goes on a discount since we seem to be doing fine with the AA we have now.

EDIT:  I would've loved to have scripting tools.

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Old 11-20-2011, 06:03 PM   #10
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Mystfit wrote:

feldon30 wrote:

. So SOE will be able to say "see, the players can't make dungeons as good as ones made by our artists!"

Although I don't argue with anyone who wishes we could do more...down to creating the dungeons ourselves or playing as ourselves, I take issue with the idea that the devs would EVER say such a thing. They are, I'm sure, well aware that we have a toy box compared to their toolbox, they even laughed at the one question asking if our tools looked like theirs, noting how different they are. Over the last few weeks I've watched more pod casts then I have my last 5 years and I continue to walk away with the impression that these are nice, hardworking guys.

I asked that question, and they didn't read it up right so that question ended up as a blatant fail.I asked how THEIR new development tool smoke mentioned in the cast prior to this one, currently in development instead of enhancing our game engine, was different to THEIR development tool they currently use.For some reason they thought I was talking about the DYOD feature, but that wasn't even the intended question.Smoke said they were creating a tool to let them produce dungeons and maps faster, which is what the question concerned.I have never been so humiliated in my entire life (almost) as when they thought I didn't realize our DYOD is way more simple than their tools and laughed at it.Next time I ask a question to a webcast I am going to be super specific about it, and I am not even sure that will help for them to get it right...

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Old 11-20-2011, 07:00 PM   #11
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Depending upon how they let us use housing items in the dungeons, it could turn out decently or bad.  There will be a limited number of tools to make encounters interesting, yes.  However, items placed interestingly can allow for a decent result.  Some of the houses look completely different than the original.  If the same can be done in DYOD, there will end up being worth while dungeons, even with limited other tools.

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Old 11-21-2011, 05:30 AM   #12
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Old 11-21-2011, 05:38 AM   #13
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[email protected] Bazaar wrote:

I asked how THEIR new development tool smoke mentioned in the cast prior to this one, currently in development instead of enhancing our game engine, was different to THEIR development tool they currently use.

Well I'm not SmokeJumper, GermInUSA, or anyone else at SOE, but I think I understand what SmokeJumper was talking about.

Currently and/or in the past, when you want to add a new landmass to EQ2, as in an island, continent, etc. you must build it up from scratch in a 3D program. This takes months.

I believe what is being added is a more efficient way to sculpt terrain and build overland zones faster.

I could be wrong of course.

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Old 11-21-2011, 11:18 AM   #14
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feldon30 wrote:

[email protected] Bazaar wrote:

I asked how THEIR new development tool smoke mentioned in the cast prior to this one, currently in development instead of enhancing our game engine, was different to THEIR development tool they currently use.

Well I'm not SmokeJumper, GermInUSA, or anyone else at SOE, but I think I understand what SmokeJumper was talking about.

Currently and/or in the past, when you want to add a new landmass to EQ2, as in an island, continent, etc. you must build it up from scratch in a 3D program. This takes months.

I believe what is being added is a more efficient way to sculpt terrain and build overland zones faster.

I could be wrong of course.

That's kind of how I feel it is too. Many areas of terrain are blocky and feels like they made them polygon by polygon.In games like WoW and Rift on the other hand, everything has a smooth and spherical look, hills are not pointy, but rounded. It can have both posivtive and bad effects. The good thing is that it is faster, the bad thing is that things look a bit more generic.Could also be that they are able to use carving like how you do caves in Crysis to make caves etc.Either way, I am curious how the differences affect the design process.And I hope that if they do start using spherical shapes with lots more of polygons, that the game engine is enhanced before those zones are released or I can see major framerate slowdowns. Unless the tool will take some stress off it of course.Either way, I hope we can get some insight into it sometimes SMILEY

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Old 11-21-2011, 12:04 PM   #15
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SpineDoc wrote:

Feldon you hit the nail right on the head, "Dungeon Decorator" would be a PERFECT name for the DYOD.  instead of getting a dozen half baked features.

And just so you don't forget, the good "decorations" are going to come via station cash.   Your $40 only gets you get the starter set.

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Old 11-21-2011, 12:20 PM   #16
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millie wrote:

...What we seemt to be getting is a bit of fluff that will not be used in 3 months time....

Optimist are so funny sometimes.

However this is how it will go down, they will make the gear that you get from running the arena pets so amazingly awesomely overpowered that everyone will go running these until they nerf the gear to hades.  So I can see it lasting a little more than 3 months to get to the nerf.

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Old 11-21-2011, 12:25 PM   #17
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You're not saying anything that is aversive to the decorating crowd.  If anyone is perfectly fine with spending $40 for more dungeon layouts, it is that portion of the playerbase.

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Old 11-21-2011, 01:01 PM   #18
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CoLD MeTaL wrote:

millie wrote:

...What we seemt to be getting is a bit of fluff that will not be used in 3 months time....

Optimist are so funny sometimes.

However this is how it will go down, they will make the gear that you get from running the arena pets so amazingly awesomely overpowered that everyone will go running these until they nerf the gear to hades.  So I can see it lasting a little more than 3 months to get to the nerf.

They said in the webcast that the gear you buy with DYOD tokens will be limited and unrepairable. Once they break, they are out.So even if they are very powerful in the start, they will stop being used after a while once people get better gear that are permanent instead.But it will also provide a way for people who don't raid to earn some good gear they can use temporarily. Hopefully this gear will be improved as more gear is implemented into the game to keep giving it an upper edge to normal heoric gear at least.

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Old 11-21-2011, 01:01 PM   #19
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So wait . . .

Seriously now.

The only thing you can do is put mobs and items into a pre-made layout?

Is that what I am reading here, and this is accurate?  Because that is *NOT* "designing" a dungeon.  That is *decorating* a dungeon.  And let's be honest, that probably took them all of 15 minutes to put together.

$40 is looking like a bigger ripoff all the time.

PATHETIC.

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Old 11-21-2011, 02:20 PM   #20
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[email protected] Bazaar wrote:

That's kind of how I feel it is too. Many areas of terrain are blocky and feels like they made them polygon by polygon.In games like WoW and Rift on the other hand, everything has a smooth and spherical look, hills are not pointy, but rounded. It can have both posivtive and bad effects. The good thing is that it is faster, the bad thing is that things look a bit more generic.Could also be that they are able to use carving like how you do caves in Crysis to make caves etc.Either way, I am curious how the differences affect the design process.And I hope that if they do start using spherical shapes with lots more of polygons, that the game engine is enhanced before those zones are released or I can see major framerate slowdowns. Unless the tool will take some stress off it of course.Either way, I hope we can get some insight into it sometimes

There were points in WOW where you could "breakout" of the play area into the "outskirts" where the maps, land mass and texturing were not completed.  You could instantly tell they built that world on top of Minecraft-esk block geomotry.  It only "looks good" after they skinned it.  I'm sure that has something to do with the "drag" and "stretch" tools.

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Old 11-21-2011, 02:23 PM   #21
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Banditman wrote:

So wait . . .

Seriously now.

The only thing you can do is put mobs and items into a pre-made layout?

Is that what I am reading here, and this is accurate?  Because that is *NOT* "designing" a dungeon.  That is *decorating* a dungeon.  And let's be honest, that probably took them all of 15 minutes to put together.

$40 is looking like a bigger ripoff all the time.

PATHETIC.

Beyond the fact that SOE Devs can cut'N paste, 'paint' and drag'N stretch geometry, I suprised anyone would think the Devs do anything when building a dungeon other than "Decorating" it.

The "Experts" are the people with "Imagination".

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Old 11-21-2011, 02:27 PM   #22
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There is a lot to how a zone is laid out.  That is the initial key to designing a dungeon.  If you can't lay out the rooms, the flow, the progression of the zone, you've done nothing.  Anyone can populate / decorate a dungeon.  That's easy.  DESIGNING the dungeon takes some talent.

I don't know why I'm surprised that this has turned in to something less impressive than the name implied.

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Old 11-21-2011, 02:44 PM   #23
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Banditman wrote:

There is a lot to how a zone is laid out.  That is the initial key to designing a dungeon.  If you can't lay out the rooms, the flow, the progression of the zone, you've done nothing.  Anyone can populate / decorate a dungeon.  That's easy.  DESIGNING the dungeon takes some talent.

I don't know why I'm surprised that this has turned in to something less impressive than the name implied.

You can have a totally awesome dungeon layout, but it can be the worst zone in the game if not handled well through placement and population.  Or you could have a dungeons which is nothing more than a single room be the most fun thing you evey had in the game.

It is true that a dungeon needs both a great structure and a great experience.  You could make an argument that the dungeon experience is more important that the structure itself.  The DYOD *seems* to allow players to construct the experience not the structure.  I don't know if that will be enough or not at this point.  But becasue the *builder* can place items and mobs where they envision, it can potentially have a good outcome.

I would guess that many people that *try* to drop some mobs and items here and there will not have a 'great' final project, but those that do put in the effort in such ways as many of the house decorators do now will complete a much more exciting environment.  My guess is most people will be too lazy to make a dungeon with a good theme and well thoughout flow to it and become bored.  Those that enjoy this type of activity will create some truely great space.

It would he AWESOME if you could put sales crates in the back of DYOD's, if you could exclude items from broker sales.

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Old 11-21-2011, 02:47 PM   #24
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I hope a few professionally made dungeons will be released so we have some idea of they were imagining when devised it.  I'd like to see each Dev do one eventually and release it to the rest of us to play.  If it's fun, so much the better.  If it's not, they will know firsthand.  SMILEY

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Old 11-21-2011, 03:36 PM   #25
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I think it's a bit of a disappointment as well that we cannot design the actual layout ourselves of the actual dungeon.Building my own stuff was awesome in the Half-Life level editors, but for that to work in EQII we would most likely have to get a separate EXE file to build from rather than in-game content.Also it's an MMORPG so allowing too much freedom might prove catastrophic.Either way, I think we will see a lot of variety from this anyway, despite the fact we cannot design the rooms ourselves.We do at least have the freedom to choose from different layouts of each dungeon, and everyone can decide where to put the entrance / exit as well so all dungeons won't be the same.And just like house decorating, a lot of detail will be required to make a good one, standing out from the crowd.

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Old 11-21-2011, 03:47 PM   #26
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Giving the 'Average Joe' access to zone altering geometry tools would certain prove to be a poor choice.  Some people would certain embrase the activity of making an aesthetically global zone.  Many, if not most, would fail to grasp the entire where-with-all to consider every factor; such as size and depth.  Building a zone without global factors would prove to be a huge mess.

For example; A veteran who plays a Fae with a Moppet device makes a dungeon under specific to their own scale and an Ogre with a Harvesters Cloak zones in and instantly crashes becasue they spawned inside a wall.  Yay!  Or zone layout is built that the only forward path is to 'jump' down and every toon without hover or safe falls instantly dies, Yay!  Good fun!

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Moving towards a block and place environment seems to be the best option and can certainly be added in later on if people like the concepts.  Placing a Hallway Block nect to a Room block would atleast go through some basic QA before release to the 'average Joe', but even then placing 100 hallway blocks next to one another would still be in the realm of possibilities.  Dumb people will always do dumb things.

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Old 11-21-2011, 04:14 PM   #27
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That's how I had envisioned DYOD when it was announced.  You basically had "legos" with which to construct your own dungeon.  Halls, rooms, stairs, etc.

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Old 11-21-2011, 04:19 PM   #28
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Banditman wrote:

That's how I had envisioned DYOD when it was announced.  You basically had "legos" with which to construct your own dungeon.  Halls, rooms, stairs, etc.

It would be much coolers ... and hopefully blocks will be added to the templates in same way later on, but we can all see or at least think that giving people tools for zone geometry is silly.

Blocks would be fun, no doubt:  [stairs-Up], [stairs-Up],[stairs-Up],[stairs-Up],[stairs-Up],[HOLE]

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Old 11-21-2011, 04:28 PM   #29
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I think it's silly to try to give people unfettered access to build their own rooms.  I don't think it's silly at all to give them the rooms, etc in premade form and allow folks to place and scale these premade rooms on their own.

I've done "world creation" before back as long ago as Doom.  It's not really all THAT hard, but I can see how it might be a mess in this game if a DYOD map started crashing clients.

However, DYOD is going to go the way of DF.  A potentially strong idea that will be crap when released, develop a bad name for itself and thereafter be ignored.  It's a shame.

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Old 11-21-2011, 04:35 PM   #30
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DAPD

Decorate a Premade Dungeon.

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